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Archive 1 |
Wouldn't it make sense, when discussing matrilineal descent, to cite or refer to whatever specific law dictates this, or at the very least give a history of this practice? Has this forever been the rule, or if not when did this tradition develop? Enquiring minds want to know!
Sorry, I was just so excited to provide these two sources. Thanks for keeping an eye on me! IZAK 06:47, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Here are two sources on the web as explanations:
and
"Enmeshed Orthodox Judaism"; While it is true that Rabbi Feinstein ruled in that in theory that women could hold prayer groups, he also ruled in practice that they could not. And indeed, no Haredi women's prayer groups have sprung up, nor is this issue a matter of concern or debate amongst Haredi Jews. In practice, this is only an issue for Modern Orthodox Jews, since only Modern Orthodox women's prayer groups have sprung up (and a tiny number at that).
"first Jewish authority"; As the article you refer to itself states, he is the sole Orthodox authority to do so. While other Orthodox Rabbis may support the position, they are not recognized authorities. Few Rabbis are.
I quote from Frimmer's article: "there is apparently no acknowledged more hora'a-recognized halakhic authority-who condones the recitation of devarim she-bi-kdusha at women's service" Back to you, RK. Jayjg 18:57, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
"he reaffimed this view for 15 years" In what way did he affirm this view for 15 years? Did he speak out supporting it? Did he write about it? As it stands, it is an unsubstantiated claim.
"however after receiving harsh criticism from Haredi rabbis," You are implying a cause and effect here, that Goren, in effect, buckled to Haredi pressure; please provide evidence of both the claim itself, and that it caused him to change his position. As it stands, they are both unsubstantiated claims.
"Many Orthodox Jewish feminists etc."; Please provide a source for this claim, coming from Orthodox Jewish feminists. Your personal views may differ from theirs. Thanks, Jayjg 17:26, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Obviously it's unclear whether Rabbi Goren retracted. This is becoming almost talmudical (chazar bah?) I am unfamiliar with the discussion, but I must remind RK that: Please only use indents for quotes. Please restrict your sources to the ones you actually quote in the text. Just dumping your bookshelf here is counterproductive. A compromise is a section titled "further reading", but I doubt this is helpful. JFW | T@lk 17:28, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This section of the article doesn't seem accurate if we're coming from NPOV...according to R' Gil Student:
"What can be clearly seen, from three separate and even antagonistic reports of R. Soloveitchik's view, is that he was firmly set against the practice for a whole host of reasons. This has been confirmed from dozens of interviews and from the testimony of his close students and relatives. While he did not agree with everything that R. Hershel Schachter wrote on this subject, he agreed with his conclusion that WPGs are not allowed." I suspect that the other rabbis in this point haven't been verified, but I'm only removing the point about The Rav for now. --Yodamace1 11:45, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Exactly; Goren never retracted anything about allowing women's prayer groups. Rather, Goren always supported women's prayer groups, but stated that his support for womens minyans was a speculative work, and not intended as a p'sak halacha. Jayjg 18:08, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
That said, I'll add the "retracted" statement to the text. Jayjg 19:05, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Goren wrote a clarification of his views a number of years afterwards, which says that his writing was intended as a speculative work, not for publication, and certainly not as a p'sak halacha. RK contends that Goren is dissembling, that he retracted his views under pressure from Haredi Rabbis. What Goren said is clear, but RK's claims about what was "really going on" need evidence to support them.
Jayjg 17:33, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Orthodox Judaism views men and women as having different obligations. But disagree that there is a single consistent reason for this throughout Orthodox Judaism in all its variants. Views about e.g. the fundamental nature of men and women vary. Suggest either ommitting reasons entirely, or giving the different approaches. -- 71.235.95.87 04:26, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Shavua Tov, Shykee. I gather you're interested in using this page for a discussion of the issue and you don't have any particular edits objecting to. Very well. I don't think Orthodox feminists take the same road that Conservative and Reform folks have taken that complete elimination of all differences between men and women is even desirable, let alone that external beliefs should trump sound halachic argument. Accepting that halacha trumps what one personally thinks is fundamental to being Orthodox. And unlike Conservative and Reform, we believe in dealing with halakhic issues on a case by case basis, on their individual merits. And we're very patient people. But let me mention just one small but not unimportant thing, something a Reform or Conservative Jews, who reject continuity with the world of the Avodah, could find of little consequence. The 3rd of the four gates on the North side of the Beit Hamikdash -- between Shaar Hakorban where the Kohanim entered with the kodshei kadashim offerings and Shaar Hashir where the levi'im came in with their musical instruments -- was Shaar Hanashim, the Womens' Gate where women entered to offer korbanot. (The other north-side gates were the Yechonyah gate, where kings of the Davidic line enter, Yechonyah being the last one to have done so, Shaar Hakorban, where Kohanim enter with Kodosh Kedoshim karbonot, and Shaar Hashir, where Lev'im enter with their musical instruments to sing) On the other hand, the Nikanor Gate, between the Ezrat Nashim and the main Temple Courtyard, was on the east side of the Beit Hamikdash. In other words, women entering the Beit Hamikdash to offer Korbanot did not so much as pass through the Ezrat Nashim, let alone remain there. They entered the same place men did -- the heart of the complex -- to do the same thing men did. They merely entered through a different gate. It is true that women weren't involved in all the korbanot men were -- not the tamid offerings, for example. But although their roles were somewhat different, the existence of the women's gate, and its prominent location on the north side, the more kodesh side where cohanim, levi'im, and kings entered, is evidence that women's roles in the period of the Beit Hamikdash simply weren't as diminished as they came to be later, and hence claims that halacha must always be read strictly in favor of reduced women's roles, or that strong female roles are inconsistent with the basic structure of Judaism, simply doesn't jibe with the fundamental nature of the avodah that public tefillah emulates. The shaar nashim wasn't built by foreignors. It was built by Jews. Why is it unJewish to suggest that an Orthodox synagogue -- a synagogue that maintains continuity with the avodah -- should have something equivalent? It it's also worth mentioning that a woman could be a neviah -- with full powers, including not only the power to teach and transmit Torah but the power to crown kings, or to offer psak verifying the validity of scrolls of Torah -- see Huldah . -- Shirahadasha 03:50, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Wouldn't "Status of women in Judaism" be a better title for this article?
Oh, and by the way, where is Role of men in Judaism? Women aren't the only gender in Judaism, obviously! — Rickyrab | Talk 14:49, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The page "Role of women..." is lacking without a good idea of the role of the male of the species. Thus, we ought to point out Jewish ideas of the male role in a separate page. Alternatively, we could entitle a page Gender roles in Judaism and redirect this page over there. — Rickyrab | Talk 14:52, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
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Can a few comments on this subject be put on the page Women as theological figures either section. This is meant to be a general overview (ditto when divided into two pages as indicated).
Jackiespeel 10:08, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
This is a controversial topic, particularly in conservative congregations. On the one hand, women should be included when mentioning the patriarchs, on the other hand, does it diminish the role of women to mention them solely because they were married to the partriarchs? Neil Fein 14:57, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
While the above page is linked to this article page, any further comments are welcome. Jackiespeel 17:25, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, most of Wikipedia is editable. But I think the simple typo here in the title is its own kind of commentary and is not trivial. How can we change it? Sam* 03:17, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
It can be done at requested moves, but it would be in violation of naming conventions so this is unlikely to succeed. JFW | T@lk 17:37, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Hullo. Most of the content of the article needs to be severely pared back, as it presently reads like a position paper rather than an encyclopedia article. I think the phenom is worth noting, but not that it's sufficiently influential to warrant an independent article, both of which are presently being cited as reasons for deleting it, actually... Tom e r talk 07:31, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
I placed a {{fact}} tag by this sentence (added by Shirahadasha). Even if a source is found, the sentence implies that this was common and mainstream, which I very much doubt was the case. 21:56, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm tempted to add in an overview of the whole "קול באשה ערווה" issue, but I'm having a bit of trouble finding English sources to cite. I can't even get consensus on what the English translation of the phrase is. 82.166.53.176 17:33, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Try this on-line English reference:
This source presents both strict and lenient views and gives some background and history. The Talmud itself contains only a few brief comments about this issue. Most of the contemporary arguments are based on the opinions of subsequent commentators and decision-makers.
Also, Kol Isha may deserve its own article if you'd like to start one. There is currently a short paragraph on it in Tzniut, which you might want to expand. Good luck. -- Shirahadasha 20:01, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Centralized discussion at Talk:Partnership minyan#No halakhic support for egalitarian innovations in Orthodoxy. Thank you, IZAK 10:06, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I made a number of minor edits throughout this page. My goal was to improve the formatting and readability; among other things, I adopted the spelling "Halakha" throughout, in keeping with the title of the Wikipedia page. I removed several phrases and sentences that were misleading, unnecessary, or blatantly unsourced. -- Khaim 15:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I would like to take "gender equality" out of the lead. Gender equality was its effect but not its proximate cause. Although I think many people have come to view it as the justification, that is a later view point. It wasn't the original reason for the decision (cf. the link to the actual resolution) and is unsupported by the citation.
On a more personal (and uncitable) note, at the time I don't actually recall gender being raised as an issue, but I do remember an awful lot of deep concern about assimilation. The reform movement knew it was changing something deeply fundamental and only a reason rooted in the very survival of Israel would be good enough.
The above comment also raises another issue that seems to have gone unaddressed in the article, namely the role of necessity. Traditional halakhah is considerably more open to women's involvement in moments of necessity (e.g. the opinion of some that a woman may not count in a minyan except as the "10th" man - alas source currently buried in boxes). In many cases, these decisions of necessity have been used as the foundation of halakhic arguments in favor of an expanded role for women. Interesting, necessity has also played a role on the right as well. One of my good friends follows a rabbi who agrees in principle that women may read the torah, but has advised him to refuse to listen to a woman reading on the grounds that it make look like he is endorsing a certain wider and deeply-destructive approach to Judaism associated with such practices. Egfrank 05:14, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I've corrected a statement that says that Reform Judaism rejects Halakhah. This is not strictly true. Halakha does continue to play an important advisory role in Reform decisions. The resolutions of the Central Conference of American Rabbis have consistently cited historic Jewish precedents, often taken from halakhic literature. The Reform movement also has a developing responsa literature: the work of Solomon B. Freehof (USA), Moshe Zemer (Israel) are but two examples. In addition, there are active betei midrash studying halakic issues on both the New York and Jerusalem campuses of the Hebrew Union College - the reform rabbinical institute.
The disputes between the Reform movement and Jewish Orthodoxy over the role of women has more to do with the relative weight each movement places on principle vs. precedent. The Reform movement believes that conscience, reason, and story can sui generis provide insight into the meaning of Jewish ethical principles. Principle should guide the interpretation of precedent. Orthodoxy tends to fear that this will destroy community and lead people to "do what they feel, not what is right" and prefers to understand principles by study of precedent. Egfrank 06:01, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Footnote 6 refers us to Wolowelsky article in tradition that apparently proposes making all-kohen minyan for womens aliyot. I read the article in tradition and this idea appears nowhere. Can someone please tell me what the source for this being wolowelsky's view is? otherwise I'll delete it. YaakovOfNY ( talk) 08:42, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Wouldn't it make sense, when discussing matrilineal descent, to cite or refer to whatever specific law dictates this, or at the very least give a history of this practice? Has this forever been the rule, or if not when did this tradition develop? Enquiring minds want to know!
Sorry, I was just so excited to provide these two sources. Thanks for keeping an eye on me! IZAK 06:47, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Here are two sources on the web as explanations:
and
"Enmeshed Orthodox Judaism"; While it is true that Rabbi Feinstein ruled in that in theory that women could hold prayer groups, he also ruled in practice that they could not. And indeed, no Haredi women's prayer groups have sprung up, nor is this issue a matter of concern or debate amongst Haredi Jews. In practice, this is only an issue for Modern Orthodox Jews, since only Modern Orthodox women's prayer groups have sprung up (and a tiny number at that).
"first Jewish authority"; As the article you refer to itself states, he is the sole Orthodox authority to do so. While other Orthodox Rabbis may support the position, they are not recognized authorities. Few Rabbis are.
I quote from Frimmer's article: "there is apparently no acknowledged more hora'a-recognized halakhic authority-who condones the recitation of devarim she-bi-kdusha at women's service" Back to you, RK. Jayjg 18:57, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
"he reaffimed this view for 15 years" In what way did he affirm this view for 15 years? Did he speak out supporting it? Did he write about it? As it stands, it is an unsubstantiated claim.
"however after receiving harsh criticism from Haredi rabbis," You are implying a cause and effect here, that Goren, in effect, buckled to Haredi pressure; please provide evidence of both the claim itself, and that it caused him to change his position. As it stands, they are both unsubstantiated claims.
"Many Orthodox Jewish feminists etc."; Please provide a source for this claim, coming from Orthodox Jewish feminists. Your personal views may differ from theirs. Thanks, Jayjg 17:26, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Obviously it's unclear whether Rabbi Goren retracted. This is becoming almost talmudical (chazar bah?) I am unfamiliar with the discussion, but I must remind RK that: Please only use indents for quotes. Please restrict your sources to the ones you actually quote in the text. Just dumping your bookshelf here is counterproductive. A compromise is a section titled "further reading", but I doubt this is helpful. JFW | T@lk 17:28, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This section of the article doesn't seem accurate if we're coming from NPOV...according to R' Gil Student:
"What can be clearly seen, from three separate and even antagonistic reports of R. Soloveitchik's view, is that he was firmly set against the practice for a whole host of reasons. This has been confirmed from dozens of interviews and from the testimony of his close students and relatives. While he did not agree with everything that R. Hershel Schachter wrote on this subject, he agreed with his conclusion that WPGs are not allowed." I suspect that the other rabbis in this point haven't been verified, but I'm only removing the point about The Rav for now. --Yodamace1 11:45, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Exactly; Goren never retracted anything about allowing women's prayer groups. Rather, Goren always supported women's prayer groups, but stated that his support for womens minyans was a speculative work, and not intended as a p'sak halacha. Jayjg 18:08, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
That said, I'll add the "retracted" statement to the text. Jayjg 19:05, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Goren wrote a clarification of his views a number of years afterwards, which says that his writing was intended as a speculative work, not for publication, and certainly not as a p'sak halacha. RK contends that Goren is dissembling, that he retracted his views under pressure from Haredi Rabbis. What Goren said is clear, but RK's claims about what was "really going on" need evidence to support them.
Jayjg 17:33, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Orthodox Judaism views men and women as having different obligations. But disagree that there is a single consistent reason for this throughout Orthodox Judaism in all its variants. Views about e.g. the fundamental nature of men and women vary. Suggest either ommitting reasons entirely, or giving the different approaches. -- 71.235.95.87 04:26, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Shavua Tov, Shykee. I gather you're interested in using this page for a discussion of the issue and you don't have any particular edits objecting to. Very well. I don't think Orthodox feminists take the same road that Conservative and Reform folks have taken that complete elimination of all differences between men and women is even desirable, let alone that external beliefs should trump sound halachic argument. Accepting that halacha trumps what one personally thinks is fundamental to being Orthodox. And unlike Conservative and Reform, we believe in dealing with halakhic issues on a case by case basis, on their individual merits. And we're very patient people. But let me mention just one small but not unimportant thing, something a Reform or Conservative Jews, who reject continuity with the world of the Avodah, could find of little consequence. The 3rd of the four gates on the North side of the Beit Hamikdash -- between Shaar Hakorban where the Kohanim entered with the kodshei kadashim offerings and Shaar Hashir where the levi'im came in with their musical instruments -- was Shaar Hanashim, the Womens' Gate where women entered to offer korbanot. (The other north-side gates were the Yechonyah gate, where kings of the Davidic line enter, Yechonyah being the last one to have done so, Shaar Hakorban, where Kohanim enter with Kodosh Kedoshim karbonot, and Shaar Hashir, where Lev'im enter with their musical instruments to sing) On the other hand, the Nikanor Gate, between the Ezrat Nashim and the main Temple Courtyard, was on the east side of the Beit Hamikdash. In other words, women entering the Beit Hamikdash to offer Korbanot did not so much as pass through the Ezrat Nashim, let alone remain there. They entered the same place men did -- the heart of the complex -- to do the same thing men did. They merely entered through a different gate. It is true that women weren't involved in all the korbanot men were -- not the tamid offerings, for example. But although their roles were somewhat different, the existence of the women's gate, and its prominent location on the north side, the more kodesh side where cohanim, levi'im, and kings entered, is evidence that women's roles in the period of the Beit Hamikdash simply weren't as diminished as they came to be later, and hence claims that halacha must always be read strictly in favor of reduced women's roles, or that strong female roles are inconsistent with the basic structure of Judaism, simply doesn't jibe with the fundamental nature of the avodah that public tefillah emulates. The shaar nashim wasn't built by foreignors. It was built by Jews. Why is it unJewish to suggest that an Orthodox synagogue -- a synagogue that maintains continuity with the avodah -- should have something equivalent? It it's also worth mentioning that a woman could be a neviah -- with full powers, including not only the power to teach and transmit Torah but the power to crown kings, or to offer psak verifying the validity of scrolls of Torah -- see Huldah . -- Shirahadasha 03:50, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Wouldn't "Status of women in Judaism" be a better title for this article?
Oh, and by the way, where is Role of men in Judaism? Women aren't the only gender in Judaism, obviously! — Rickyrab | Talk 14:49, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The page "Role of women..." is lacking without a good idea of the role of the male of the species. Thus, we ought to point out Jewish ideas of the male role in a separate page. Alternatively, we could entitle a page Gender roles in Judaism and redirect this page over there. — Rickyrab | Talk 14:52, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
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Can a few comments on this subject be put on the page Women as theological figures either section. This is meant to be a general overview (ditto when divided into two pages as indicated).
Jackiespeel 10:08, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
This is a controversial topic, particularly in conservative congregations. On the one hand, women should be included when mentioning the patriarchs, on the other hand, does it diminish the role of women to mention them solely because they were married to the partriarchs? Neil Fein 14:57, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
While the above page is linked to this article page, any further comments are welcome. Jackiespeel 17:25, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, most of Wikipedia is editable. But I think the simple typo here in the title is its own kind of commentary and is not trivial. How can we change it? Sam* 03:17, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
It can be done at requested moves, but it would be in violation of naming conventions so this is unlikely to succeed. JFW | T@lk 17:37, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Hullo. Most of the content of the article needs to be severely pared back, as it presently reads like a position paper rather than an encyclopedia article. I think the phenom is worth noting, but not that it's sufficiently influential to warrant an independent article, both of which are presently being cited as reasons for deleting it, actually... Tom e r talk 07:31, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
I placed a {{fact}} tag by this sentence (added by Shirahadasha). Even if a source is found, the sentence implies that this was common and mainstream, which I very much doubt was the case. 21:56, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm tempted to add in an overview of the whole "קול באשה ערווה" issue, but I'm having a bit of trouble finding English sources to cite. I can't even get consensus on what the English translation of the phrase is. 82.166.53.176 17:33, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Try this on-line English reference:
This source presents both strict and lenient views and gives some background and history. The Talmud itself contains only a few brief comments about this issue. Most of the contemporary arguments are based on the opinions of subsequent commentators and decision-makers.
Also, Kol Isha may deserve its own article if you'd like to start one. There is currently a short paragraph on it in Tzniut, which you might want to expand. Good luck. -- Shirahadasha 20:01, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Centralized discussion at Talk:Partnership minyan#No halakhic support for egalitarian innovations in Orthodoxy. Thank you, IZAK 10:06, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I made a number of minor edits throughout this page. My goal was to improve the formatting and readability; among other things, I adopted the spelling "Halakha" throughout, in keeping with the title of the Wikipedia page. I removed several phrases and sentences that were misleading, unnecessary, or blatantly unsourced. -- Khaim 15:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I would like to take "gender equality" out of the lead. Gender equality was its effect but not its proximate cause. Although I think many people have come to view it as the justification, that is a later view point. It wasn't the original reason for the decision (cf. the link to the actual resolution) and is unsupported by the citation.
On a more personal (and uncitable) note, at the time I don't actually recall gender being raised as an issue, but I do remember an awful lot of deep concern about assimilation. The reform movement knew it was changing something deeply fundamental and only a reason rooted in the very survival of Israel would be good enough.
The above comment also raises another issue that seems to have gone unaddressed in the article, namely the role of necessity. Traditional halakhah is considerably more open to women's involvement in moments of necessity (e.g. the opinion of some that a woman may not count in a minyan except as the "10th" man - alas source currently buried in boxes). In many cases, these decisions of necessity have been used as the foundation of halakhic arguments in favor of an expanded role for women. Interesting, necessity has also played a role on the right as well. One of my good friends follows a rabbi who agrees in principle that women may read the torah, but has advised him to refuse to listen to a woman reading on the grounds that it make look like he is endorsing a certain wider and deeply-destructive approach to Judaism associated with such practices. Egfrank 05:14, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I've corrected a statement that says that Reform Judaism rejects Halakhah. This is not strictly true. Halakha does continue to play an important advisory role in Reform decisions. The resolutions of the Central Conference of American Rabbis have consistently cited historic Jewish precedents, often taken from halakhic literature. The Reform movement also has a developing responsa literature: the work of Solomon B. Freehof (USA), Moshe Zemer (Israel) are but two examples. In addition, there are active betei midrash studying halakic issues on both the New York and Jerusalem campuses of the Hebrew Union College - the reform rabbinical institute.
The disputes between the Reform movement and Jewish Orthodoxy over the role of women has more to do with the relative weight each movement places on principle vs. precedent. The Reform movement believes that conscience, reason, and story can sui generis provide insight into the meaning of Jewish ethical principles. Principle should guide the interpretation of precedent. Orthodoxy tends to fear that this will destroy community and lead people to "do what they feel, not what is right" and prefers to understand principles by study of precedent. Egfrank 06:01, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Footnote 6 refers us to Wolowelsky article in tradition that apparently proposes making all-kohen minyan for womens aliyot. I read the article in tradition and this idea appears nowhere. Can someone please tell me what the source for this being wolowelsky's view is? otherwise I'll delete it. YaakovOfNY ( talk) 08:42, 28 December 2007 (UTC)