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This article is not particularly clear on why he was a hunted man since 1987. Was it just because he was associated with the RAF? Or was there evidence he was a key member or involved with the planning (or even commission) of crimes? Nil Einne 16:00, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
This article needs better referencing. Specifically, the eyewitness account and the claim it's been officially concluded he did not commit suicide. While this seems likely given that there appears to have been a cover up and resignations, we still need proper references Nil Einne 16:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Well i dont want to speak about the eyewitnesses (of which one is anonymous and one hid herself in a locker) but no offical has EVER stated something different from that he commited suicide. Just the opposite: Every report states that he did just that (except a sentence by a minor court who stated that they had no idea or evidence of anything, so they could not decide)
As far as I recall there are serious problems with the theory that Grams shot the GSG9 member. The fatal wounds (going from memory here) were delivered by a police weapon (9mm), there is no reason to believe Grams got access to one of the GSG9 weapons during the brief firefight. So, assuming the ammunition was indeed 9mm, Newrzella was either accidentally, or on purpouse shot by a fellow GSG9 member. So saying Grams murdered Newrzella is incorrect. If anything, Grams' execution might have been a coverup by the same people who accidentally killed their colleague. As it stands this article is not neutral.-- Caranorn 13:10, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
This theory is not very common. It is belived by most people that the SWAT member was shot by Grams. Please dont use Wikipedia to create a theory if you think other scenarios are more likely. anyway you can of course state that theory with the remark that it is belived by very few people who tend to be extremly left. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.246.7.21 ( talk • contribs)
This article is very difficult to read and I think the grammar and language used needs to be anglicised, thank you -- Librarianofages 03:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
think the term is just wrong. Who are we talking about? Andreas Baader was in jail twice- a few weeks in 1970 for the arson bombing of a department store and from 1972 on. At no time he was held capured because of his political point of view, but because he had commited non-political crimes.
Ensslin was hardly a politcal prisoner as well. Convicted for the arson bombing in frankfurt as well she was released pending an appeal and did not show up again. She took part in several terrorist attacks leaving four people dead.
So even if Grams visited them in the brief period in 1970 (which i think is quite unlikely) he did not meet political prisoners. Unless of course you think fire raising is a part of expressing your political point of view. Yet there is no way i am accepting violence as part of politics.
Unless you object i will change it again tomorrow.
138.246.7.21 18:43, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I just realised the reference I just added is from another wiki, possibly a copy of an old german wikipedia article. That entire article looks very similar to this one, so I'd assume it's the original source. Unfortunatelly that article doesn't include any furtehr references... Further looking through the history of the german wikipedia article I find the apparent source for the Waffen-SS claim under april 6 2004, two edits by Stefan Kühn refering to a movie/film Black Box BRD. I don't know the film, so can't judge whether this is a correct quote etc. I'm going to replace the reference I added with a short footnote pointing towards that film.-- Caranorn 12:40, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Just wanted to add a note here on that office. It should probably be translated as Federal Public Prosecutor or something similar. Possibly with the Staatsanwaltschaft wikilink. But I'm not 100% certain this office is indeed the head of said Staatsanwaltschaft.-- Caranorn 15:18, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
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This article is not particularly clear on why he was a hunted man since 1987. Was it just because he was associated with the RAF? Or was there evidence he was a key member or involved with the planning (or even commission) of crimes? Nil Einne 16:00, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
This article needs better referencing. Specifically, the eyewitness account and the claim it's been officially concluded he did not commit suicide. While this seems likely given that there appears to have been a cover up and resignations, we still need proper references Nil Einne 16:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Well i dont want to speak about the eyewitnesses (of which one is anonymous and one hid herself in a locker) but no offical has EVER stated something different from that he commited suicide. Just the opposite: Every report states that he did just that (except a sentence by a minor court who stated that they had no idea or evidence of anything, so they could not decide)
As far as I recall there are serious problems with the theory that Grams shot the GSG9 member. The fatal wounds (going from memory here) were delivered by a police weapon (9mm), there is no reason to believe Grams got access to one of the GSG9 weapons during the brief firefight. So, assuming the ammunition was indeed 9mm, Newrzella was either accidentally, or on purpouse shot by a fellow GSG9 member. So saying Grams murdered Newrzella is incorrect. If anything, Grams' execution might have been a coverup by the same people who accidentally killed their colleague. As it stands this article is not neutral.-- Caranorn 13:10, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
This theory is not very common. It is belived by most people that the SWAT member was shot by Grams. Please dont use Wikipedia to create a theory if you think other scenarios are more likely. anyway you can of course state that theory with the remark that it is belived by very few people who tend to be extremly left. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.246.7.21 ( talk • contribs)
This article is very difficult to read and I think the grammar and language used needs to be anglicised, thank you -- Librarianofages 03:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
think the term is just wrong. Who are we talking about? Andreas Baader was in jail twice- a few weeks in 1970 for the arson bombing of a department store and from 1972 on. At no time he was held capured because of his political point of view, but because he had commited non-political crimes.
Ensslin was hardly a politcal prisoner as well. Convicted for the arson bombing in frankfurt as well she was released pending an appeal and did not show up again. She took part in several terrorist attacks leaving four people dead.
So even if Grams visited them in the brief period in 1970 (which i think is quite unlikely) he did not meet political prisoners. Unless of course you think fire raising is a part of expressing your political point of view. Yet there is no way i am accepting violence as part of politics.
Unless you object i will change it again tomorrow.
138.246.7.21 18:43, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I just realised the reference I just added is from another wiki, possibly a copy of an old german wikipedia article. That entire article looks very similar to this one, so I'd assume it's the original source. Unfortunatelly that article doesn't include any furtehr references... Further looking through the history of the german wikipedia article I find the apparent source for the Waffen-SS claim under april 6 2004, two edits by Stefan Kühn refering to a movie/film Black Box BRD. I don't know the film, so can't judge whether this is a correct quote etc. I'm going to replace the reference I added with a short footnote pointing towards that film.-- Caranorn 12:40, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Just wanted to add a note here on that office. It should probably be translated as Federal Public Prosecutor or something similar. Possibly with the Staatsanwaltschaft wikilink. But I'm not 100% certain this office is indeed the head of said Staatsanwaltschaft.-- Caranorn 15:18, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
An image used in this article,
File:Wolfgang Grams, RAF.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests December 2011
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
This notification is provided by a Bot -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 10:05, 2 December 2011 (UTC) |
The file File:Personenfahndungskarte Grams Wolfgang Werner.jpg, used on this page, has been deleted from Wikimedia Commons and re-uploaded at File:Personenfahndungskarte Grams Wolfgang Werner.jpg. It should be reviewed to determine if it is compliant with this project's non-free content policy, or else should be deleted and removed from this page. If no action is taken, it will be deleted after 7 days. Commons fair use upload bot ( talk) 15:05, 28 January 2014 (UTC)