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spectator.us
[1] - "Etymological note: Woke, a verb form being used as an adjective, is hard to translate. It might normally be somewhat inadequately rendered as réveiller (to wake up) or réveillé (woken up), or the verb éclairer might be useful, but these miss the African-American cadence. Fortunately for translators, and in a final insult to the language police of the Académie française, the American word has been adopted (appropriated?) here and is now being used in everyday speech and on magazine covers. Woke has become, in the blink of an eye, as French as un hot-dog or le weekend."
--
Hodgdon's secret garden (
talk)
18:41, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
The Spectator primarily consists of opinion pieces and these should be judged by WP:RSOPINION and WP:NEWSBLOG.I'd also add WP:RSEDITORIAL to the mix. -- Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 23:44, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
"may be acceptable sources if the writers are professionals, but use them with caution because blogs may not be subject to the news organization's normal fact-checking process.[8] If a news organization publishes an opinion piece in a blog, attribute the statement to the writer, e.g. 'Jane Smith wrote ...'"
expat-Briton and observer of French cultureis not the same as being a recognized expert. I've removed the citation as WP:UNDUE. -- Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 06:21, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
Look at this part of the intro text I am quoting here: "for some progressive political activists it is now considered an offensive term used to denigrate those campaigning against racism, sexism and other forms of discrimination".
So in short this is saying that the term "Woke" is a serious offensive term that is against those going against bigotry. This is completely biased. It does not mention that there are progressives and liberals including popular media figures like Bill Maher who are not using the term to "denigrate" people because they are campaigning against bigotry but because they do not believe that "Woke" tactics will succeed in bringing major advances for marginalized groups but instead above all promote stifling political correctness. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.156.108.199 ( talk) 15:27, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
WP:NOTAFORUM -- Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 05:47, 3 July 2021 (UTC) ( non-admin closure) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Woke "theallage" has racially excluded the HOLOCAUST against American Indians. They were the first humans inslaved under what became the United States of America. Racism in the United States began in the northern state of massachuseis against American Indians with it's law, The American Indian Imprisonment Act. That law was still on state law books till 2004, it was the blueprint for Jim Crow Laws across the United States. State governments registered Indian babies race as Black on their birth record to lower the state's Indian race population. No Indian was allowed inside any city after dark or they could be lynched or imprisoned for life. Before during and after the US Civil War the Federal Government continued it's Holocaust against American Indians with it's Manafest Destenie Holocaust campaign. An all Black Army Unit was first to arrive on what's known as Wounded Knee Massacre Site today, they supplyed the 7TH-Cav with hichcock guns used to bring about the massacre of Indian men women and children. American Indian imprisonment Act reference. Click on Laws against Indians www.UnitedNativeAmerica.com UnitedNatives ( talk) 03:30, 3 July 2021 (UTC) |
A fair bit of text has been recently added referencing various opinion commentators (e.g. Kenya Hunt, Chitra Ramaswamy, Owen Jones, Steve Rose, Evan Smith, Kenan Malik) and newsworthy, if rather trivial, usages of the term "woke" in the media. While many of the people mentioned are notable individuals in their own right, I'm not aware of any of them being considered subject-matter experts in politics, civil rights, or the English language. Most are simply pundits whose careers depend on their ability to deliver spicy takes, resulting in disproportionate media coverage of current controversies. I think this material should be pared down subtantially, at least by getting rid of the opinions that aren't mentioned in a reliable, secondary source as well as news stories where the term or concept of "woke(ness)" isn't the main topic. -- Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 23:30, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
how the term is being usednecessarily involves original research in choosing which writers represent how we think it is being used. It also lends undue weight to non-expert sources. A perfect example is this sentence:
McWhorter is an actual subject-matter expert (in linguistics). Why is the focus on some random op-ed columnist, while McWhorter is seemingly only cited as an afterthought or to bolster said columnist's argument? -- Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 23:09, 21 August 2021 (UTC)Writing in The Guardian, the commentator Steve Rose writes that the political right has "weaponised" the term woke; he compares it to politically correct as a term originally coined by leftists but then adopted by their right-wing rivals; this comparison was also made by American linguist and social critic John McWhorter.
Is there any good reason why the word "woke" is italicised in the title, and the opening text? This seems to contravene MOS:ITALICTITLE. Unless there is a good reason for it, I suggest that the italic styling be removed. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 08:17, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
Whoever placed the by whom tag there didn’t bother to investigate citation 23 just before the “has been cited” claim. Someone should put another citation tag to the same article cited by tag 23 right after the claim so this is clear. 73.69.251.97 ( talk) 15:56, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
Writing in The Guardian, the commentator Steve Rose writes that the political right has "weaponised" the term woke" seems a bit much. Rather than its reading, "the Right", blah blah blah, "the Right," blah blah blah, "the Right"), when unbiased & full-spectrum reportage includes a slew of other criticisms, at minimum, the section should include, by way of balance, such reportages as by journalist-&-historian Anne Applebaum (see my above quote of her), plus utilize such as her as a 2ndary-source providing requisite notability to such nuanced & non-Right opinions about woke of John McWhorter / of such victims of woke outrage as given media coverage by Applebaum (and others) such as Ian Buruma and others).-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 20:29, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Balance's imperative about "describing opposing views clearly, drawing on secondary or tertiary sources that describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint"– I quite agree with this approach. However, none of the quoted pieces are "disinterested". They each have a point of view to advance. That's the whole purpose of opinion essays. The third essay hardly mentions "woke(ness)" at all; Sullivan's use of the term is basically a throwaway which the author, Edsall, does not bother to elaborate upon. -- Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 23:15, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
"However, anthropological reality is that today, slurs have become our profanity: repellent to our senses, rendering even words that sound like them suspicious and eliciting not only censure but also punishment."-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 17:59, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
Mostly off-topic speculation & quotes by random writers of opinion essays, blogs, etc. – not useful. --
Sangdeboeuf (
talk)
21:46, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
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The use of the term by opponents of perceived wokeness is best summed up as " pejorative". According to the sources cited:
Among conservatives, 'woke' has been adopted as term of derision for those who hold progressive social justice views. [1]In the six years since Brown’s death, 'woke' has evolved into a single-word summation of leftist political ideology [...] This framing of 'woke' is bipartisan: It’s used as a shorthand for political progressiveness by the left, and as a denigration of leftist culture by the right. [2][I]n culture and politics today, the most prominent uses of 'woke' are as a pejorative — Republicans attacking Democrats, more centrist Democrats attacking more liberal ones and supporters of the British monarchy using the term to criticize people more sympathetic to Prince Harry and Meghan Markle. [3]Some people say being woke is a sign of awareness to social issues, others whip out the term as an insult [...] It has become a common term of derision among some who oppose the movements it is associated with, or believe the issues are exaggerated. [4]
- ^ Smith, Allan; Kapur, Sahil (May 2, 2021). "Republicans are crusading against 'woke'". NBC News.
- ^ Romano, Aja (9 October 2020). "A history of 'wokeness'". Vox.
- ^ Bacon, Perry Jr. (17 March 2021). "Why Attacking 'Cancel Culture' And 'Woke' People Is Becoming The GOP's New Political Strategy". FiveThirtyEight.
- ^ Butterworth, Benjamin (26 June 2021). "What does 'woke' actually mean, and why are some people so angry about it?". inews.co.uk.
" Denigration" and " derision" mean belittling, attacking, ridiculing. This is far more than just "disapproval" or "criticism". -- Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 00:36, 7 September 2021 (UTC) –
Commentary about alleged bias in selection/usage of this article-section's sourcing --
Hodgdon's secret garden (
talk)
15:05, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
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Applebaum's essay uses the word "woke" a total of three times, and none of them clearly describe what she's talking about. Applebaum clearly objects to "modern mob justice" but it is not at all clear that Applebaum wishes to paint with such a broad brush as to describe "woke" in this manner. In fact, she goes out of her way to create a nuanced picture - you will often find not an obvious argument between “woke” and “anti-woke” perspectives but rather incidents that are interpreted, described, or remembered by different people in different ways, even leaving aside whatever political or intellectual issue might be at stake- and that's two of the three total uses of "woke" in the entire piece. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 17:32, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
|
In summary, the bottom line is: Since the preponderance of sourcing associates illiberal woke mobocracry (substitute positive-spin terminology for the phenomenon, if desired) not at all with the center and even with the center-left but only with more extremes of the left, yet our article section-in-question tends to elide this, the false impression is created that criticism of this illiberal phenomenon is a feature principally of the right.-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 15:02, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
illiberal woke mobocracryare irrelevant. -- Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 21:55, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
secondary or tertiary sources that describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint, which you helpfully pointed out earlier as being essential to achieving balance. I hope I don't need to reiterate that commentary and blogs by culture warriors like McWhorter (vis-a-vis politics, not language), Sullivan, Weiss, James Lindsay, et al., are not
disinterestedon this topic. -- Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 22:30, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
Sullivan's/Weiss's/Lindsay's/McWhorter's position is not in the fringe of liberalism but in its mainstream.Then it should be easy to cite a mainstream, secondary or tertiary source saying so. An essay or blog post where an author states their views is by definition a primary source for those views. My personal beliefs about
woke outrage/twitter shamingare beside the point, as are everyone else's who hasn't been cited in a published, reliable source. Online shaming has its own article, and is not relevant to this one. -- Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 00:35, 14 September 2021 (UTC) edited 21:20, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
Transl.: "19 right-wing series and movies to escape the woke tsunami"
Transl.: "'I'm getting tired of all this woke stuff. Men can also stand up for women's rights.' Conner Rousseau converts to the anti-woke camp"
Transl.: "Antiwoke critics often hardly bother to define concepts like cancel culture or censorship .. those who do not adhere to the inscrutable lexicon of the 'wokies' are simply eliminated."
Transl.:"Minerva goes «woke», a conservative medium commits suicide' Recently, the cultural editor of Minerva published an article arguing that those of us who criticize woke culture should shrug our shoulders."
Et cetera
--
Hodgdon's secret garden (
talk) 00:29, 6 September 2021 (UTC)--
Hodgdon's secret garden (
talk)
20:01, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
"wokeizmu" (od ang. "woke" – "przebudzony", czyli patrzenia na świat przez pryzmat faktycznych i rzekomych nierówności społecznych i rasowych).
Machine translation: "'vokeism' (from 'woke' - 'awakened', that is, looking at the world through the prism of actual and alleged social and racial inequalities)." Another uses in the article: "a consequence of the 'leftist voke agenda'"
-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 19:43, 12 September 2021 (UTC)"Ehhez nyilván hozzájárult az is, hogy a prof televíziós viták sorában állt ki az elvei mellett, közben többször is összetűzésbe került az amerikai „woke” mozgalom aktivistáival, amiért aztán az ún. alt-right, vagyis az amerikai alternatív jobboldal próbált belőle hőst csinálni."
Machine translation: "This was obviously contributed to by the fact that the prof[ Jordan B. Peterson ]stood up for his principles in a series of television debates, while he clashed several times with activists of the American 'woke' movement, for which the so-called alt-right, i.e. the American alternative right, tried to make him a hero."
"Voor sommigen is ‘woke’ inmiddels een scheldwoord voor bevoorrechte, progressieve witte luitjes die in een smetvrije cocon van politieke correctheid leven en met elkaar wedijveren in wokeness. .."
[Machine translation]: Wakeland. Jan Kuitenbrouwer - "How 'woke' evolved from an anti-racism term to a swear word"
".. While that old political awakening is more of a call to stand up and go to war, the new 'woke' is more of an individual quality, a kind of X-ray glasses that allow you to observe the injustice and inequality in every situation, however subtle. That can then be denounced and avenged. In that sense, 'woke' is strongly linked to —> cancel culture.
"To some, 'woke' has become a swear word for privileged, progressive white folks who live in a blemish-free cocoon of political correctness and compete in wokeness .. "
--
Hodgdon's secret garden (
talk)
00:20, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
Suggested text:
“In September 2021, Writer Nels Abbey likened use of woke as a pejorative to a ' dog whistle.'”
"
Question Time"
BBC One programme
Nels Abbey: "Writer, satirist, co-founder of the Black Writers Guild and author of 'Think Like a White Man.'"
Full text (addressing
Andrew Neil, "chairman of
The Spectator Magazine Group, former editor of
The Sunday Times, founding chairman of
SKY TV, ex-BBC presenter and former chairman and lead presenter of
GB News"): "I posit it to you, Andrew, that you actually knew exactly what you guys were setting up. When you used the word ‘woke’ as a pejorative, I put it to you that .. you exactly knew the dog you were blowing that whistle at."
bbc
thenational(glasgow)
timesnewsexpress
metro/uk
express/uk
indy100
todayuknews
huffpost/uk
--
Hodgdon's secret garden (
talk)
18:57, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
what Nels Abbey said on a debate show one time.
some nuanced allusionabout something along the lines that types-of-overenthusiasm-he-didn't-specify maybe could be counterproductive; and, equally expectedly, the man from Mira Lago's mouthing a phrase that's
diametrically opposite to Go woke or go broke. This said, per the breadth and quality of each of their respective one-time expressed opinions' sourcings, they're notable. And, at least per my editorial sense, Abbey's oft-expressed argument -- that incidentally is in longer form than either Trump's or Obama's opinion, as well -- per the breadth and quality of its sourcings, is notable as well.-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 15:24, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
-- rmvd at some point from the article? It seems I'd read of it in there. Yet, not too unsurprisingly, the following lengthy content remains: ""Former President Barack Obama made a rare foray into the cultural conversation this week, objecting to the prevalence of 'call-out culture' and 'wokeness' during an interview about youth activism at the Obama Foundation summit on Tuesday."
Who wudda thunk it! -- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 22:29, 25 September 2021 (UTC)Following remarks by chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Mark Milley in June, in which Milley defended the idea of teaching critical race theory at U.S. military academies,[64][65] former U.S. President Donald Trump said at a political rally in Ohio that military leaders were becoming too 'woke',[66] later saying, 'You know what woke means, it means you’re a loser' and 'Everything woke turns to shit' at a rally in Alabama.[67] Trump later told Fox News that the administration of president Joe Biden was 'destroying' the country 'with woke'.[59]"
-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 23:30, 25 September 2021 (UTC)"[ ]To opponents of the social aims of such movements, however, it has become a catch-all term for a certain type of socially liberal ideology they dislike[. M]ost Britons (59%) don’t know what 'woke' means, half of whom (30%) have never heard the term being used[. ] Of those who say they know what woke is[ ](29%) consider themselves to be woke, while more than half (56%) do not. One in four consider being woke to be a good thing (26%), while slightly more than a third (37%) think it a bad thing.[ ]" -- YouGov
-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 15:59, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
spectator.us
[1] - "Etymological note: Woke, a verb form being used as an adjective, is hard to translate. It might normally be somewhat inadequately rendered as réveiller (to wake up) or réveillé (woken up), or the verb éclairer might be useful, but these miss the African-American cadence. Fortunately for translators, and in a final insult to the language police of the Académie française, the American word has been adopted (appropriated?) here and is now being used in everyday speech and on magazine covers. Woke has become, in the blink of an eye, as French as un hot-dog or le weekend."
--
Hodgdon's secret garden (
talk)
18:41, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
The Spectator primarily consists of opinion pieces and these should be judged by WP:RSOPINION and WP:NEWSBLOG.I'd also add WP:RSEDITORIAL to the mix. -- Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 23:44, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
"may be acceptable sources if the writers are professionals, but use them with caution because blogs may not be subject to the news organization's normal fact-checking process.[8] If a news organization publishes an opinion piece in a blog, attribute the statement to the writer, e.g. 'Jane Smith wrote ...'"
expat-Briton and observer of French cultureis not the same as being a recognized expert. I've removed the citation as WP:UNDUE. -- Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 06:21, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
Look at this part of the intro text I am quoting here: "for some progressive political activists it is now considered an offensive term used to denigrate those campaigning against racism, sexism and other forms of discrimination".
So in short this is saying that the term "Woke" is a serious offensive term that is against those going against bigotry. This is completely biased. It does not mention that there are progressives and liberals including popular media figures like Bill Maher who are not using the term to "denigrate" people because they are campaigning against bigotry but because they do not believe that "Woke" tactics will succeed in bringing major advances for marginalized groups but instead above all promote stifling political correctness. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.156.108.199 ( talk) 15:27, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
WP:NOTAFORUM -- Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 05:47, 3 July 2021 (UTC) ( non-admin closure) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Woke "theallage" has racially excluded the HOLOCAUST against American Indians. They were the first humans inslaved under what became the United States of America. Racism in the United States began in the northern state of massachuseis against American Indians with it's law, The American Indian Imprisonment Act. That law was still on state law books till 2004, it was the blueprint for Jim Crow Laws across the United States. State governments registered Indian babies race as Black on their birth record to lower the state's Indian race population. No Indian was allowed inside any city after dark or they could be lynched or imprisoned for life. Before during and after the US Civil War the Federal Government continued it's Holocaust against American Indians with it's Manafest Destenie Holocaust campaign. An all Black Army Unit was first to arrive on what's known as Wounded Knee Massacre Site today, they supplyed the 7TH-Cav with hichcock guns used to bring about the massacre of Indian men women and children. American Indian imprisonment Act reference. Click on Laws against Indians www.UnitedNativeAmerica.com UnitedNatives ( talk) 03:30, 3 July 2021 (UTC) |
A fair bit of text has been recently added referencing various opinion commentators (e.g. Kenya Hunt, Chitra Ramaswamy, Owen Jones, Steve Rose, Evan Smith, Kenan Malik) and newsworthy, if rather trivial, usages of the term "woke" in the media. While many of the people mentioned are notable individuals in their own right, I'm not aware of any of them being considered subject-matter experts in politics, civil rights, or the English language. Most are simply pundits whose careers depend on their ability to deliver spicy takes, resulting in disproportionate media coverage of current controversies. I think this material should be pared down subtantially, at least by getting rid of the opinions that aren't mentioned in a reliable, secondary source as well as news stories where the term or concept of "woke(ness)" isn't the main topic. -- Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 23:30, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
how the term is being usednecessarily involves original research in choosing which writers represent how we think it is being used. It also lends undue weight to non-expert sources. A perfect example is this sentence:
McWhorter is an actual subject-matter expert (in linguistics). Why is the focus on some random op-ed columnist, while McWhorter is seemingly only cited as an afterthought or to bolster said columnist's argument? -- Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 23:09, 21 August 2021 (UTC)Writing in The Guardian, the commentator Steve Rose writes that the political right has "weaponised" the term woke; he compares it to politically correct as a term originally coined by leftists but then adopted by their right-wing rivals; this comparison was also made by American linguist and social critic John McWhorter.
Is there any good reason why the word "woke" is italicised in the title, and the opening text? This seems to contravene MOS:ITALICTITLE. Unless there is a good reason for it, I suggest that the italic styling be removed. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 08:17, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
Whoever placed the by whom tag there didn’t bother to investigate citation 23 just before the “has been cited” claim. Someone should put another citation tag to the same article cited by tag 23 right after the claim so this is clear. 73.69.251.97 ( talk) 15:56, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
Writing in The Guardian, the commentator Steve Rose writes that the political right has "weaponised" the term woke" seems a bit much. Rather than its reading, "the Right", blah blah blah, "the Right," blah blah blah, "the Right"), when unbiased & full-spectrum reportage includes a slew of other criticisms, at minimum, the section should include, by way of balance, such reportages as by journalist-&-historian Anne Applebaum (see my above quote of her), plus utilize such as her as a 2ndary-source providing requisite notability to such nuanced & non-Right opinions about woke of John McWhorter / of such victims of woke outrage as given media coverage by Applebaum (and others) such as Ian Buruma and others).-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 20:29, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Balance's imperative about "describing opposing views clearly, drawing on secondary or tertiary sources that describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint"– I quite agree with this approach. However, none of the quoted pieces are "disinterested". They each have a point of view to advance. That's the whole purpose of opinion essays. The third essay hardly mentions "woke(ness)" at all; Sullivan's use of the term is basically a throwaway which the author, Edsall, does not bother to elaborate upon. -- Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 23:15, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
"However, anthropological reality is that today, slurs have become our profanity: repellent to our senses, rendering even words that sound like them suspicious and eliciting not only censure but also punishment."-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 17:59, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
Mostly off-topic speculation & quotes by random writers of opinion essays, blogs, etc. – not useful. --
Sangdeboeuf (
talk)
21:46, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
|
---|
|
The use of the term by opponents of perceived wokeness is best summed up as " pejorative". According to the sources cited:
Among conservatives, 'woke' has been adopted as term of derision for those who hold progressive social justice views. [1]In the six years since Brown’s death, 'woke' has evolved into a single-word summation of leftist political ideology [...] This framing of 'woke' is bipartisan: It’s used as a shorthand for political progressiveness by the left, and as a denigration of leftist culture by the right. [2][I]n culture and politics today, the most prominent uses of 'woke' are as a pejorative — Republicans attacking Democrats, more centrist Democrats attacking more liberal ones and supporters of the British monarchy using the term to criticize people more sympathetic to Prince Harry and Meghan Markle. [3]Some people say being woke is a sign of awareness to social issues, others whip out the term as an insult [...] It has become a common term of derision among some who oppose the movements it is associated with, or believe the issues are exaggerated. [4]
- ^ Smith, Allan; Kapur, Sahil (May 2, 2021). "Republicans are crusading against 'woke'". NBC News.
- ^ Romano, Aja (9 October 2020). "A history of 'wokeness'". Vox.
- ^ Bacon, Perry Jr. (17 March 2021). "Why Attacking 'Cancel Culture' And 'Woke' People Is Becoming The GOP's New Political Strategy". FiveThirtyEight.
- ^ Butterworth, Benjamin (26 June 2021). "What does 'woke' actually mean, and why are some people so angry about it?". inews.co.uk.
" Denigration" and " derision" mean belittling, attacking, ridiculing. This is far more than just "disapproval" or "criticism". -- Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 00:36, 7 September 2021 (UTC) –
Commentary about alleged bias in selection/usage of this article-section's sourcing --
Hodgdon's secret garden (
talk)
15:05, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
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Applebaum's essay uses the word "woke" a total of three times, and none of them clearly describe what she's talking about. Applebaum clearly objects to "modern mob justice" but it is not at all clear that Applebaum wishes to paint with such a broad brush as to describe "woke" in this manner. In fact, she goes out of her way to create a nuanced picture - you will often find not an obvious argument between “woke” and “anti-woke” perspectives but rather incidents that are interpreted, described, or remembered by different people in different ways, even leaving aside whatever political or intellectual issue might be at stake- and that's two of the three total uses of "woke" in the entire piece. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 17:32, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
|
In summary, the bottom line is: Since the preponderance of sourcing associates illiberal woke mobocracry (substitute positive-spin terminology for the phenomenon, if desired) not at all with the center and even with the center-left but only with more extremes of the left, yet our article section-in-question tends to elide this, the false impression is created that criticism of this illiberal phenomenon is a feature principally of the right.-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 15:02, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
illiberal woke mobocracryare irrelevant. -- Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 21:55, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
secondary or tertiary sources that describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint, which you helpfully pointed out earlier as being essential to achieving balance. I hope I don't need to reiterate that commentary and blogs by culture warriors like McWhorter (vis-a-vis politics, not language), Sullivan, Weiss, James Lindsay, et al., are not
disinterestedon this topic. -- Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 22:30, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
Sullivan's/Weiss's/Lindsay's/McWhorter's position is not in the fringe of liberalism but in its mainstream.Then it should be easy to cite a mainstream, secondary or tertiary source saying so. An essay or blog post where an author states their views is by definition a primary source for those views. My personal beliefs about
woke outrage/twitter shamingare beside the point, as are everyone else's who hasn't been cited in a published, reliable source. Online shaming has its own article, and is not relevant to this one. -- Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 00:35, 14 September 2021 (UTC) edited 21:20, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
Transl.: "19 right-wing series and movies to escape the woke tsunami"
Transl.: "'I'm getting tired of all this woke stuff. Men can also stand up for women's rights.' Conner Rousseau converts to the anti-woke camp"
Transl.: "Antiwoke critics often hardly bother to define concepts like cancel culture or censorship .. those who do not adhere to the inscrutable lexicon of the 'wokies' are simply eliminated."
Transl.:"Minerva goes «woke», a conservative medium commits suicide' Recently, the cultural editor of Minerva published an article arguing that those of us who criticize woke culture should shrug our shoulders."
Et cetera
--
Hodgdon's secret garden (
talk) 00:29, 6 September 2021 (UTC)--
Hodgdon's secret garden (
talk)
20:01, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
"wokeizmu" (od ang. "woke" – "przebudzony", czyli patrzenia na świat przez pryzmat faktycznych i rzekomych nierówności społecznych i rasowych).
Machine translation: "'vokeism' (from 'woke' - 'awakened', that is, looking at the world through the prism of actual and alleged social and racial inequalities)." Another uses in the article: "a consequence of the 'leftist voke agenda'"
-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 19:43, 12 September 2021 (UTC)"Ehhez nyilván hozzájárult az is, hogy a prof televíziós viták sorában állt ki az elvei mellett, közben többször is összetűzésbe került az amerikai „woke” mozgalom aktivistáival, amiért aztán az ún. alt-right, vagyis az amerikai alternatív jobboldal próbált belőle hőst csinálni."
Machine translation: "This was obviously contributed to by the fact that the prof[ Jordan B. Peterson ]stood up for his principles in a series of television debates, while he clashed several times with activists of the American 'woke' movement, for which the so-called alt-right, i.e. the American alternative right, tried to make him a hero."
"Voor sommigen is ‘woke’ inmiddels een scheldwoord voor bevoorrechte, progressieve witte luitjes die in een smetvrije cocon van politieke correctheid leven en met elkaar wedijveren in wokeness. .."
[Machine translation]: Wakeland. Jan Kuitenbrouwer - "How 'woke' evolved from an anti-racism term to a swear word"
".. While that old political awakening is more of a call to stand up and go to war, the new 'woke' is more of an individual quality, a kind of X-ray glasses that allow you to observe the injustice and inequality in every situation, however subtle. That can then be denounced and avenged. In that sense, 'woke' is strongly linked to —> cancel culture.
"To some, 'woke' has become a swear word for privileged, progressive white folks who live in a blemish-free cocoon of political correctness and compete in wokeness .. "
--
Hodgdon's secret garden (
talk)
00:20, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
Suggested text:
“In September 2021, Writer Nels Abbey likened use of woke as a pejorative to a ' dog whistle.'”
"
Question Time"
BBC One programme
Nels Abbey: "Writer, satirist, co-founder of the Black Writers Guild and author of 'Think Like a White Man.'"
Full text (addressing
Andrew Neil, "chairman of
The Spectator Magazine Group, former editor of
The Sunday Times, founding chairman of
SKY TV, ex-BBC presenter and former chairman and lead presenter of
GB News"): "I posit it to you, Andrew, that you actually knew exactly what you guys were setting up. When you used the word ‘woke’ as a pejorative, I put it to you that .. you exactly knew the dog you were blowing that whistle at."
bbc
thenational(glasgow)
timesnewsexpress
metro/uk
express/uk
indy100
todayuknews
huffpost/uk
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Hodgdon's secret garden (
talk)
18:57, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
what Nels Abbey said on a debate show one time.
some nuanced allusionabout something along the lines that types-of-overenthusiasm-he-didn't-specify maybe could be counterproductive; and, equally expectedly, the man from Mira Lago's mouthing a phrase that's
diametrically opposite to Go woke or go broke. This said, per the breadth and quality of each of their respective one-time expressed opinions' sourcings, they're notable. And, at least per my editorial sense, Abbey's oft-expressed argument -- that incidentally is in longer form than either Trump's or Obama's opinion, as well -- per the breadth and quality of its sourcings, is notable as well.-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 15:24, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
-- rmvd at some point from the article? It seems I'd read of it in there. Yet, not too unsurprisingly, the following lengthy content remains: ""Former President Barack Obama made a rare foray into the cultural conversation this week, objecting to the prevalence of 'call-out culture' and 'wokeness' during an interview about youth activism at the Obama Foundation summit on Tuesday."
Who wudda thunk it! -- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 22:29, 25 September 2021 (UTC)Following remarks by chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Mark Milley in June, in which Milley defended the idea of teaching critical race theory at U.S. military academies,[64][65] former U.S. President Donald Trump said at a political rally in Ohio that military leaders were becoming too 'woke',[66] later saying, 'You know what woke means, it means you’re a loser' and 'Everything woke turns to shit' at a rally in Alabama.[67] Trump later told Fox News that the administration of president Joe Biden was 'destroying' the country 'with woke'.[59]"
-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 23:30, 25 September 2021 (UTC)"[ ]To opponents of the social aims of such movements, however, it has become a catch-all term for a certain type of socially liberal ideology they dislike[. M]ost Britons (59%) don’t know what 'woke' means, half of whom (30%) have never heard the term being used[. ] Of those who say they know what woke is[ ](29%) consider themselves to be woke, while more than half (56%) do not. One in four consider being woke to be a good thing (26%), while slightly more than a third (37%) think it a bad thing.[ ]" -- YouGov
-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 15:59, 26 September 2021 (UTC)