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Text and/or other creative content from this version of The Magpie (Monet) was copied or moved into Winter in Western Art with Content from The Magpie (Monet) has been removed. this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
Parts of the Winter in Impressionists is based on the lead part in the article The Magpie - by Viriditas Hafspajen ( talk) 00:27, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Viriditas, you were right, I forgot about that one. User:Sca/sandbox#Selected quotations re Monet. I was a note that I made in the draft about your article and it made its way into the article somehow. We had merged that article from three different sandboxes, here it was User:Sca/sandbox#Selected quotations re Monet. It does say to: (Except for the material in parentheses, these are all direct quoets.). It just got into the article somehow. Removed now, but I credited you on the talk to. Hafspajen ( talk) 00:50, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
The last sentence in the Impressionists section is not a complete sentence.
Also, as I was reading and copy-editing, I felt that, while the lead is good, and sections here and there are good, generally I lost sight of the topic of the article -- winter in painting. The article seemed to go off in a tangent about landscape painting, and plein-air painting, but no longer mentioned winter. Discussing the changes in landscape painting is fine, but I think more details about winter landscapes in particular are needed. CorinneSD ( talk) 01:54, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
ADDED: The depiction of winter landcapes involving depiction of snow is the article's central subject'.
Hafspajen (
talk)
02:11, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
I really like the article title "Winter in Western Art". I think there is a lot more to winter than just snow. I really like the way you connected the changes in climate (temperature) to the topic. I think the article is fine from the beginning to the end of the second paragraph in Winter in Western Art#Romantic landscape painting. In the remaining paragraphs in that section there is no mention of winter, no connection between landscape painting and winter, and I think there should be. The Impressionists section is fine except for that incomplete sentence I mentioned at the beginning of my earlier comment, above.
I say "fine", but don't you think there may be too much information about the changes and development in landscape painting (especially in Romantic landscape painting)? Doesn't that belong in a separate article about landscape painting? There are certain things that make this article special and different. I'd like to see anything you can find about:
I just revised some sentences in the first paragraph in Winter in Western Art#Impressionists. I have a few things I wanted to ask you about or point out:
1) You have the word "series" three times in one paragraph, and I think that's too many times. Which one (or two) could you remove or change?
2) You mention "effets de neige" in the second sentence and again in the last sentence. Shouldn't those be closer together?
3) In the third sentence you mention "Three other painters who painted winter landscapes but less frequently were...", so that means the artists mentioned in the previous sentence painted more -- or many -- winter landscapes, but you don't say that. All you say is that they "started painting" winter landscapes. I think you should change "started painting" to "painted quite a few winter landscapes", or "painted many winter landscapes".
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see any mention of English painters. Weren't there some English painters who painted winter scenes? CorinneSD ( talk) 03:00, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Corinne could you please wait a little until I am ready. I am not finished yet. Hafspajen ( talk) 03:06, 15 December 2014 (UTC) Can't concentrate on five things. Hafspajen ( talk) 03:07, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
OK:
1) No, I don't think there is too much information about the changes and development in landscape painting. There was NO LANDSCAPE PAINTING to talk about before. We could though add MORE about Romanic WINTER landscapes in that section, yes.
2) ABOUT NEXT:
Sca - Corinne left some thoughts here, I fixed some of it. What do you say about the rest, the word "series" three times in one paragraph, and mention "effets de neige" in the second sentence and again in the last sentence ....? Hafspajen ( talk) 16:50, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
3) About ENGLISH LAndscape: You might need to ask Sca. This time it was his selection of the art. I imagine thre is Turner of course. Hafspajen ( talk) 03:59, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Sca Except for one image of a painting by Church, there are no American artists represented in this article. Why not include the Grant Wood and Winslow Homer paintings shown here? They are different from the other paintings. Also, I wonder if you can you find a nice painting by an English artist. I counted seven artists that are represented by more than one painting in the article, which is fine, but if you need space, you could remove one or two of those. CorinneSD ( talk) 02:42, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
The title should be lowercase. However, I believe the original title ("Winter in Western Art") was much better. Viriditas ( talk) 20:44, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
You have the blockquote now in "Romantic landscape painting". I have two questions:
1) I wonder why you cut off the quote at the point that you did. If you want to make the point that is made in the "Techniques" section that the new, portable tubes of paint made plein-air painting easier, you need a little more. If that point is not important, you need a little less.
2) It seems to me that the main points in this quote illustrate statements in the "Techniques" section more than they illustrate statements in the "Romantic landscape painting", especially if you add a little more to the end of the quote as I mentioned above. CorinneSD ( talk) 02:33, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
( edit conflict) O.K. I understand now that the quote is really mainly about the Romantics. It goes on to explain how they painted (sketch outdoors, finished painting indoors) and says that this was really "a matter of convenience" due to the way they had to make their own paints prior to the invention of the tubes. However, this point is not made clearly because you cut off the quote. Aren't there a few more words you could include about the paint that would really make clear why it was more convenient for them to complete their paintings indoors? CorinneSD ( talk) 02:51, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Plein-air painting, in its strictest sense, the practice of painting landscape pictures out-of-doors; more loosely, the achievement of an intense impression of the open air (French: plein air) in a landscape painting. Until the time of the painters of the Barbizon school in mid-19th-century France, it was normal practice to execute rough sketches of landscape subjects in the open air and produce finished paintings in the studio. Part of this was a matter of convenience. Before the invention of the collapsible tin paint tube, widely marketed by the colour merchants Winsor & Newton in 1841, painters purchased their colours in the ... (100 of 281 words)
This is all you can read if not logged in. Hafspajen ( talk) 06:03, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
1) Upon careful reading, it seems to me that in the first paragraph of the section Winter landscapes in Western art#Romantic landscape painting, and the first sentence of the second paragraph, there is some repetition of ideas. I wonder if it could be made more concise. (In order to do this, you would have to take some words out and consolidate, or combine, some sentences. Let me know if you need help
2) The second sentence of the last paragraph in this section is as follows:
CorinneSD ( talk) 16:49, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Corinne you are a real Sherlock Holmes. Never noticed it. Hafspajen ( talk) 19:12, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
.:::::.OK, reverted to where you were but now I don't know where that sentence was. Hafspajen ( talk) 02:52, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
How about Snowscapes in Western Art — ?? Sca ( talk) 22:04, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
If you are excluding the Canadian Group of Seven with their huge body of winter landscapes, and in fact all North American artists who have depicted such scenes, the title should be ( … ) in European Art. In any case, terms like Western and Eastern in contexts like this are deprecated, and more specific ones such as Asian, Polynesian etc. are preferred. I will refrain from weighing in on what ( … ) should be. Awien ( talk) 13:39, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Rewrite: Some of these works involve religious or even fantasy landscapes, but paintings with snow as a theme are mostly landscapes. They are often painted plein-air, with the artist using the thin, gray light of winter to create an appropriate atmosphere and illustrate the effect of light reflected off snow. Because frequent snowfall is a part of winter in northern European countries, depiction of snow in Europe is essentially a northern European theme.
All this is rather wrong, the way the sentences follow. It gives the impression that most winter landscapes are painted plein-air, witch they are not. It gives also the impression that they generally are painted in Europe. Changed. Hafspajen ( talk) 08:58, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
More
Hudson School will be added and some other stuff too. Probably not this week or two.
Hafspajen (
talk)
13:58, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
I've noticed that there is some inconsistency in the captions of the images in this article. Most have the name of the artist first, followed by a colon (which is not WP style), followed by the title of the work in italics. At least two, the February painting and the Frederic Edwin Church painting, have the title of the work first, in italics, followed by a comma, followed by the name of the artist. Those, at least, follow WP style regarding punctuation. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Visual arts#Image captions. Be sure to read the last paragraph of that section where it says, "Note: some editors prefer...". Also look at the example caption at the bottom of the page.
I prefer the title of the work (in italics) first, followed by the name of the artist, rather than the name of the artist, followed by the title of the work. I think most readers – average readers – find reading the title as they look at the work both interesting and helpful. The name of the artist is of secondary importance to them. For experts, it is probably the other way around. However, I'll go along with whatever is agreed upon. After the order is agreed upon, the punctuation needs to be fixed, removing the colon and adding a comma. Corinne ( talk) 01:08, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||
|
Text and/or other creative content from this version of The Magpie (Monet) was copied or moved into Winter in Western Art with Content from The Magpie (Monet) has been removed. this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
Parts of the Winter in Impressionists is based on the lead part in the article The Magpie - by Viriditas Hafspajen ( talk) 00:27, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Viriditas, you were right, I forgot about that one. User:Sca/sandbox#Selected quotations re Monet. I was a note that I made in the draft about your article and it made its way into the article somehow. We had merged that article from three different sandboxes, here it was User:Sca/sandbox#Selected quotations re Monet. It does say to: (Except for the material in parentheses, these are all direct quoets.). It just got into the article somehow. Removed now, but I credited you on the talk to. Hafspajen ( talk) 00:50, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
The last sentence in the Impressionists section is not a complete sentence.
Also, as I was reading and copy-editing, I felt that, while the lead is good, and sections here and there are good, generally I lost sight of the topic of the article -- winter in painting. The article seemed to go off in a tangent about landscape painting, and plein-air painting, but no longer mentioned winter. Discussing the changes in landscape painting is fine, but I think more details about winter landscapes in particular are needed. CorinneSD ( talk) 01:54, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
ADDED: The depiction of winter landcapes involving depiction of snow is the article's central subject'.
Hafspajen (
talk)
02:11, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
I really like the article title "Winter in Western Art". I think there is a lot more to winter than just snow. I really like the way you connected the changes in climate (temperature) to the topic. I think the article is fine from the beginning to the end of the second paragraph in Winter in Western Art#Romantic landscape painting. In the remaining paragraphs in that section there is no mention of winter, no connection between landscape painting and winter, and I think there should be. The Impressionists section is fine except for that incomplete sentence I mentioned at the beginning of my earlier comment, above.
I say "fine", but don't you think there may be too much information about the changes and development in landscape painting (especially in Romantic landscape painting)? Doesn't that belong in a separate article about landscape painting? There are certain things that make this article special and different. I'd like to see anything you can find about:
I just revised some sentences in the first paragraph in Winter in Western Art#Impressionists. I have a few things I wanted to ask you about or point out:
1) You have the word "series" three times in one paragraph, and I think that's too many times. Which one (or two) could you remove or change?
2) You mention "effets de neige" in the second sentence and again in the last sentence. Shouldn't those be closer together?
3) In the third sentence you mention "Three other painters who painted winter landscapes but less frequently were...", so that means the artists mentioned in the previous sentence painted more -- or many -- winter landscapes, but you don't say that. All you say is that they "started painting" winter landscapes. I think you should change "started painting" to "painted quite a few winter landscapes", or "painted many winter landscapes".
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see any mention of English painters. Weren't there some English painters who painted winter scenes? CorinneSD ( talk) 03:00, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Corinne could you please wait a little until I am ready. I am not finished yet. Hafspajen ( talk) 03:06, 15 December 2014 (UTC) Can't concentrate on five things. Hafspajen ( talk) 03:07, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
OK:
1) No, I don't think there is too much information about the changes and development in landscape painting. There was NO LANDSCAPE PAINTING to talk about before. We could though add MORE about Romanic WINTER landscapes in that section, yes.
2) ABOUT NEXT:
Sca - Corinne left some thoughts here, I fixed some of it. What do you say about the rest, the word "series" three times in one paragraph, and mention "effets de neige" in the second sentence and again in the last sentence ....? Hafspajen ( talk) 16:50, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
3) About ENGLISH LAndscape: You might need to ask Sca. This time it was his selection of the art. I imagine thre is Turner of course. Hafspajen ( talk) 03:59, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Sca Except for one image of a painting by Church, there are no American artists represented in this article. Why not include the Grant Wood and Winslow Homer paintings shown here? They are different from the other paintings. Also, I wonder if you can you find a nice painting by an English artist. I counted seven artists that are represented by more than one painting in the article, which is fine, but if you need space, you could remove one or two of those. CorinneSD ( talk) 02:42, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
The title should be lowercase. However, I believe the original title ("Winter in Western Art") was much better. Viriditas ( talk) 20:44, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
You have the blockquote now in "Romantic landscape painting". I have two questions:
1) I wonder why you cut off the quote at the point that you did. If you want to make the point that is made in the "Techniques" section that the new, portable tubes of paint made plein-air painting easier, you need a little more. If that point is not important, you need a little less.
2) It seems to me that the main points in this quote illustrate statements in the "Techniques" section more than they illustrate statements in the "Romantic landscape painting", especially if you add a little more to the end of the quote as I mentioned above. CorinneSD ( talk) 02:33, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
( edit conflict) O.K. I understand now that the quote is really mainly about the Romantics. It goes on to explain how they painted (sketch outdoors, finished painting indoors) and says that this was really "a matter of convenience" due to the way they had to make their own paints prior to the invention of the tubes. However, this point is not made clearly because you cut off the quote. Aren't there a few more words you could include about the paint that would really make clear why it was more convenient for them to complete their paintings indoors? CorinneSD ( talk) 02:51, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Plein-air painting, in its strictest sense, the practice of painting landscape pictures out-of-doors; more loosely, the achievement of an intense impression of the open air (French: plein air) in a landscape painting. Until the time of the painters of the Barbizon school in mid-19th-century France, it was normal practice to execute rough sketches of landscape subjects in the open air and produce finished paintings in the studio. Part of this was a matter of convenience. Before the invention of the collapsible tin paint tube, widely marketed by the colour merchants Winsor & Newton in 1841, painters purchased their colours in the ... (100 of 281 words)
This is all you can read if not logged in. Hafspajen ( talk) 06:03, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
1) Upon careful reading, it seems to me that in the first paragraph of the section Winter landscapes in Western art#Romantic landscape painting, and the first sentence of the second paragraph, there is some repetition of ideas. I wonder if it could be made more concise. (In order to do this, you would have to take some words out and consolidate, or combine, some sentences. Let me know if you need help
2) The second sentence of the last paragraph in this section is as follows:
CorinneSD ( talk) 16:49, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Corinne you are a real Sherlock Holmes. Never noticed it. Hafspajen ( talk) 19:12, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
.:::::.OK, reverted to where you were but now I don't know where that sentence was. Hafspajen ( talk) 02:52, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
How about Snowscapes in Western Art — ?? Sca ( talk) 22:04, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
If you are excluding the Canadian Group of Seven with their huge body of winter landscapes, and in fact all North American artists who have depicted such scenes, the title should be ( … ) in European Art. In any case, terms like Western and Eastern in contexts like this are deprecated, and more specific ones such as Asian, Polynesian etc. are preferred. I will refrain from weighing in on what ( … ) should be. Awien ( talk) 13:39, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Rewrite: Some of these works involve religious or even fantasy landscapes, but paintings with snow as a theme are mostly landscapes. They are often painted plein-air, with the artist using the thin, gray light of winter to create an appropriate atmosphere and illustrate the effect of light reflected off snow. Because frequent snowfall is a part of winter in northern European countries, depiction of snow in Europe is essentially a northern European theme.
All this is rather wrong, the way the sentences follow. It gives the impression that most winter landscapes are painted plein-air, witch they are not. It gives also the impression that they generally are painted in Europe. Changed. Hafspajen ( talk) 08:58, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
More
Hudson School will be added and some other stuff too. Probably not this week or two.
Hafspajen (
talk)
13:58, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
I've noticed that there is some inconsistency in the captions of the images in this article. Most have the name of the artist first, followed by a colon (which is not WP style), followed by the title of the work in italics. At least two, the February painting and the Frederic Edwin Church painting, have the title of the work first, in italics, followed by a comma, followed by the name of the artist. Those, at least, follow WP style regarding punctuation. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Visual arts#Image captions. Be sure to read the last paragraph of that section where it says, "Note: some editors prefer...". Also look at the example caption at the bottom of the page.
I prefer the title of the work (in italics) first, followed by the name of the artist, rather than the name of the artist, followed by the title of the work. I think most readers – average readers – find reading the title as they look at the work both interesting and helpful. The name of the artist is of secondary importance to them. For experts, it is probably the other way around. However, I'll go along with whatever is agreed upon. After the order is agreed upon, the punctuation needs to be fixed, removing the colon and adding a comma. Corinne ( talk) 01:08, 27 August 2015 (UTC)