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The History of the Parish of Hailsham, The Abbey of Otham and the Priory of Michelham p202 states that Joan de Kelle was the wife of William of Wrotham. Mjroots ( talk) 20:31, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
Posting here for clarification of the connection of between his role as a Naval Administrator and tile Keeper of the Kings Ports and Galleys is directly linked to the office of clerk of the acts: According to Michael Oppenheim in his book The Administration of the Navy: Chapter 1, page 3. states the following "During the reign of John we meet the first sign of a naval administration in the official action of William of Wrotham, like many of his successors a cleric, and the first known 'Keeper of the king's ships.' This office, possibly in its original form of very much earlier date and only reconstituted or enlarged in function by John, and now represented in descent by the Secretaryship of the Admiralty, is the oldest administrative employment in connection with the Navy. At first called ' Keeper and Governor ' of the king's ships, later, ' Clerk of the king's ships,' this official held, sometimes really and sometimes nominally, the control of naval organisation until the formation of the Navy Board in 1546" and on page 4 states "In the course of centuries the title changed its form. In the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries the officer is called 'clerk of marine causes,' and 'clerk of the navy ; 'in the seventeenth century, 'clerk of the acts.' Although Pepys was not the last clerk of the acts, the functions associated with the office, which were the remains of the larger powers once belonging to the ' Keeper and Governor,' were carried up by him to the higher post of Secretary of the Admiralty". In William Laird Clowes book A History of the Royal Navy from Earliest Times to present Volume 1. Chapter VII The Angevin Age page 115 " The management of John's navy was largely in the hands of priests, and of these William de Wrotham, Archdeacon of Taunton, and Keeper of the King's Ships, No commission is known to have been issued to him, so that his functions cannot be exactly defined; but they appear to have been largely administrative". Until the creation of the office of the Lord High Admiral of England the role of the clerk was chief civil administrator of the English Navy, the office later became a subordinate of the Lord Admiral but continued in the same role. Nicholas A. M. Rodger,in his 2008 "A Guide to the Naval Records in the National Archives of the UK" section: Medieval Government, Administration page 23. states "Among the Wardrobe and Chamber clerks of the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries were some named as Clerks of the King’s Ships" and "The Lord Admiral of England was a great officer of state, who might on occasion exercise actual command of fleets at sea, but who had no administrative functions. His principal responsibility was the High Court of Admiralty". Rodger's statement about the administrative role of the Lord Admiral actually reinforces the view put forward by the two earlier authors. If we are saying Wrothams role and his successors was running the Navy before the creation of the Lord High Admirals office was formed yes that's correct, were both offices therefore the same role no they were not as confirmed by Rodger link to Rodgers article here: https://humanities.exeter.ac.uk/media/universityofexeter/collegeofhumanities/history/researchcentres/centreformaritimehistoricalstudies/Naval_Records.pdf In Susan Rose's book (2013) England's Medieval Navy 1066-1509: Ships, Men & Warfare on page 44 states "Cornhill and Wrotham were two of the more experienced servants of the crown at this period with their activities extending to many other areas of royal business; the fact that administration of the kings ships was entrusted to them is a measure of the importance with which the task was regarded" she again mentions keepers of the kings ships and form of administration on page 47 further down on page 47 she mentions officials now called Clerks of the Kings Ships from 1344 to 1497 and names them up to page 53 she does not however indicate any connection between Keepers or Clerks of when referring to administration of the navy under different monarchs and does not link Wrotham's role to the Lord High Admirals role she is therefore reinforcing Rodgers view about the Lord Admirals function.-- Navops47 ( talk) 17:39, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
I've been asked to provide a third opinion by NavOps47. History is not an exact thing and we have to remember that we are the re-transcripters, effectively, and cannot make judgments about ambiguous situations. That does verge into WP:Original Research. I applaud NavOps47's efforts to trace the origins of the office of the First Lord, but if the sources aren't clear we shouldn't try to fill things in to make everything neat. This was not an era when everything was neat, tidy, and exact, as the notes about the scarcity of exact information make clear.
So, in my considered judgment, linking 'clerk of the acts' to 'keeper of the king's ships' is indeed a wiki-ism or WP:SYNTH. We need also to be especially careful to make sure that all information in Featured Articles is of the highest possible standard.
What I would suggest to NavOps47 is further research on holders of the title, Keeper of the King's Ships or a related title, or suchlike. If there is enough specific information about a number of holders who each can be specifically proven in WP:RS to each have held the title Keeper of the King's Ships, an article could be created at that title. Finally, thank you NavOps47 for seeking a third opinion - exactly what you should have done in the dispute resolution process. Buckshot06 (talk) 12:13, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
This is to let you know that the William of Wrotham article has been scheduled as today's featured article for January 7, 2018. Please check the article needs no amendments. If you're interested in editing the main page text, you're welcome to do so at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/January 7, 2018, but note that a coordinator will trim the lead to around 1100 characters anyway, so you aren't obliged to do so. Thanks!
Not sure if the year 1168 or around then has any significance, but a quick Google search got me this. Don't have a lot of confidence in this but it's worth a shot. HapHaxion ( talk / contribs) 03:30, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
William of Wrotham is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on January 7, 2018. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The History of the Parish of Hailsham, The Abbey of Otham and the Priory of Michelham p202 states that Joan de Kelle was the wife of William of Wrotham. Mjroots ( talk) 20:31, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
Posting here for clarification of the connection of between his role as a Naval Administrator and tile Keeper of the Kings Ports and Galleys is directly linked to the office of clerk of the acts: According to Michael Oppenheim in his book The Administration of the Navy: Chapter 1, page 3. states the following "During the reign of John we meet the first sign of a naval administration in the official action of William of Wrotham, like many of his successors a cleric, and the first known 'Keeper of the king's ships.' This office, possibly in its original form of very much earlier date and only reconstituted or enlarged in function by John, and now represented in descent by the Secretaryship of the Admiralty, is the oldest administrative employment in connection with the Navy. At first called ' Keeper and Governor ' of the king's ships, later, ' Clerk of the king's ships,' this official held, sometimes really and sometimes nominally, the control of naval organisation until the formation of the Navy Board in 1546" and on page 4 states "In the course of centuries the title changed its form. In the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries the officer is called 'clerk of marine causes,' and 'clerk of the navy ; 'in the seventeenth century, 'clerk of the acts.' Although Pepys was not the last clerk of the acts, the functions associated with the office, which were the remains of the larger powers once belonging to the ' Keeper and Governor,' were carried up by him to the higher post of Secretary of the Admiralty". In William Laird Clowes book A History of the Royal Navy from Earliest Times to present Volume 1. Chapter VII The Angevin Age page 115 " The management of John's navy was largely in the hands of priests, and of these William de Wrotham, Archdeacon of Taunton, and Keeper of the King's Ships, No commission is known to have been issued to him, so that his functions cannot be exactly defined; but they appear to have been largely administrative". Until the creation of the office of the Lord High Admiral of England the role of the clerk was chief civil administrator of the English Navy, the office later became a subordinate of the Lord Admiral but continued in the same role. Nicholas A. M. Rodger,in his 2008 "A Guide to the Naval Records in the National Archives of the UK" section: Medieval Government, Administration page 23. states "Among the Wardrobe and Chamber clerks of the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries were some named as Clerks of the King’s Ships" and "The Lord Admiral of England was a great officer of state, who might on occasion exercise actual command of fleets at sea, but who had no administrative functions. His principal responsibility was the High Court of Admiralty". Rodger's statement about the administrative role of the Lord Admiral actually reinforces the view put forward by the two earlier authors. If we are saying Wrothams role and his successors was running the Navy before the creation of the Lord High Admirals office was formed yes that's correct, were both offices therefore the same role no they were not as confirmed by Rodger link to Rodgers article here: https://humanities.exeter.ac.uk/media/universityofexeter/collegeofhumanities/history/researchcentres/centreformaritimehistoricalstudies/Naval_Records.pdf In Susan Rose's book (2013) England's Medieval Navy 1066-1509: Ships, Men & Warfare on page 44 states "Cornhill and Wrotham were two of the more experienced servants of the crown at this period with their activities extending to many other areas of royal business; the fact that administration of the kings ships was entrusted to them is a measure of the importance with which the task was regarded" she again mentions keepers of the kings ships and form of administration on page 47 further down on page 47 she mentions officials now called Clerks of the Kings Ships from 1344 to 1497 and names them up to page 53 she does not however indicate any connection between Keepers or Clerks of when referring to administration of the navy under different monarchs and does not link Wrotham's role to the Lord High Admirals role she is therefore reinforcing Rodgers view about the Lord Admirals function.-- Navops47 ( talk) 17:39, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
I've been asked to provide a third opinion by NavOps47. History is not an exact thing and we have to remember that we are the re-transcripters, effectively, and cannot make judgments about ambiguous situations. That does verge into WP:Original Research. I applaud NavOps47's efforts to trace the origins of the office of the First Lord, but if the sources aren't clear we shouldn't try to fill things in to make everything neat. This was not an era when everything was neat, tidy, and exact, as the notes about the scarcity of exact information make clear.
So, in my considered judgment, linking 'clerk of the acts' to 'keeper of the king's ships' is indeed a wiki-ism or WP:SYNTH. We need also to be especially careful to make sure that all information in Featured Articles is of the highest possible standard.
What I would suggest to NavOps47 is further research on holders of the title, Keeper of the King's Ships or a related title, or suchlike. If there is enough specific information about a number of holders who each can be specifically proven in WP:RS to each have held the title Keeper of the King's Ships, an article could be created at that title. Finally, thank you NavOps47 for seeking a third opinion - exactly what you should have done in the dispute resolution process. Buckshot06 (talk) 12:13, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
This is to let you know that the William of Wrotham article has been scheduled as today's featured article for January 7, 2018. Please check the article needs no amendments. If you're interested in editing the main page text, you're welcome to do so at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/January 7, 2018, but note that a coordinator will trim the lead to around 1100 characters anyway, so you aren't obliged to do so. Thanks!
Not sure if the year 1168 or around then has any significance, but a quick Google search got me this. Don't have a lot of confidence in this but it's worth a shot. HapHaxion ( talk / contribs) 03:30, 7 January 2018 (UTC)