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Is note "e" in the "Authorship" section relevant to the article? Smatprt ( talk) 20:23, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm surprised you haven't brought up Galileo yet. I daresay the statistics indicating the percentage of scientists who believe global warming is real were not gathered by a newspaper via an e-mail survey, hardly my idea of a "serious survey among academics." In addition, vast numbers of climate scientists have signed petitions urging that action be taken to counter the effects of global warming. when vast numbers of Shakespeare scholars and literary historians sign a petition urging the acceptance of the Shakespeare authorship question as a valid literary topic, then we can revisit this issue. As it is now, we have 4 for deletion, 2 against. Who calls the shots on pulling the plug? Tom Reedy ( talk) 01:16, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm waiting for the deluge of all those comments from non-aligned editors, and I don't want to get in a back-and-forth pissing contest with you, but I'll answer your questions and then shut up and wait for all those comments. As for your complaint about misquoting you, I was referring to this comment from you: "As to Tom's complaints, such as the note is 'misleading' because it only includes American universities, well, as always, Tom can find something wrong with just about everything." That is the only point you chose to address. As to your other two comments above, the survey is biased, and my figure of less than 3 percent is more accurate when the bias is taken out of the survey by making the two logical assumptions I mentioned, and I do not consider the survey a reliable source for this article. Tom Reedy ( talk) 03:11, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
We have to be aware of the context here. Firstly, the authorship of many Shakespeare plays is in dispute. For example several collaborators may have worked on the Henry VI plays, and Pericles, Prince of Tyre is generally accepted to have been part-written by other authors. These claims about collaborations, alterations, cuts and other attributions are a standard part of Shakespeare scholarship in just the same way that they are of other authors and artists. To give an analogy, art historians will dispute whether this or that painting is the work of Rembrandt, or by one of his pupils or imitators. There is a whole "Rembrandt Project" dedicated to this. This is wholly different from the claim that the entire works of Rembrandt were actually painted by the Prince of Orange, or whoever. In other words there are two "authorship" debates, the mainstream one concerning attribution, and the "conspiracy theory" one that says Bacon or Oxford or whoever wrote the entire canon. The problem with this survey is that the question as asked does not allow the respondent to distinguish between the two controversies. The wording was, is there "good reason to question whether William Shakespeare of Stratford is the principal author of the plays and poems in the canon." Note the phrase "principal author". There is good reason to believe that he was not the principal author of several plays, so we don't know whether those who answered 'possibly' or 'yes' were accepting that he was not the principal author of some of the plays, or of poems such as A Lover's Complaint. The question seems to be carefully phrased to produce a positive response from some scholars. Furthermore the "possibly" respose may imply simply an acceptance that we can never wholly rule out anything. Possibly Milton did not write Paradise Lost. Who can be absolutely certain? The 'possibly's may simply reflect the scholars' need to affirm their open-mindedness. Also, the survey, as reported merges the 'possibly' responses with the 'yes' responses. And as I said above, even the 'yes' responses could easily be a result of the respondents acceptance that Shakespeare was not the "principal author" of some of the plays. So the problem here is that the survey itself is fundamentally flawed and misleading. Paul B ( talk) 16:40, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I have referenced the appropriate clause with the NYT article and deleted the note. Tom Reedy ( talk) 14:27, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Under "Influence," I read:
Shakespeare influenced novelists such as Thomas Hardy, William Faulkner, and Charles Dickens. Dickens often quoted Shakespeare, drawing 25 of his titles from Shakespeare's works.
Certainly Dickens quoted Shakespeare all over the place, but what twenty-five titles are these? Seems a misleading phrase. Apologies if I'm misunderstanding this completely.
95.134.8.40 ( talk) 19:52, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Aye, there's the rub! I've deleted the offending sentence, but there're a lot of unsupported statements in that section that need to be culled out, such as the sentence previous to the Dickens one. I can think of nothing more useless than vague generalities just for the sake of filling space. Having the main Shakespeare's influence article brought up to FA status is probably what should happen before trying to compress it into a short summary in this article. Unfortunately, I'm busy with other projects at the moment. Tom Reedy ( talk) 15:38, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
I've changed the numbers on the note that was recently added to accurately reflect the survey. Why it was added is beyond me; this article is not supposed to be a digest of antiStratfordian news events. Comments on deleting it? Tom Reedy ( talk) 05:23, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Think about what is in the text —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
82.41.210.3 (
talk)
21:02, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Sir Admin :D, Please Add the Kurdish Sorani Article to the list ckb:ویلیام شێکسپیر Thanks alot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.159.83.97 ( talk) 22:41, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Whilst reading through this article I couldn't help but notice that the spelling of the word popularised was written as its American English equivalent, "popularized". Considering Shakespeare is such a quintessentially British subject, one would expect this article to be written in British English. According with Wikipedia Manual of Style (See WP:ENGVAR) "An article on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation uses the English of that nation." -I know of few other articles with ties as strong to the nation of Britain as Shakespeare, and recommend wholeheartedly that this spelling error be rectified as soon as possible. I'd do it myself, but the article appears to be locked... Gilly of III ( talk) 17:00, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Yeah. I realise that now... I feel like quite the fool. Thanks for replying anyway, it's the only way I'll learn. I guess it is a good thing this article is locked. : ) Gilly of III ( talk) 03:21, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
On second thoughts... This article is not currently written in Oxford English. Although it understandably disallows the non-Oxford preferred word "PopulariSe(d)" in favour of "PopulariZe(d)", it includes words such as "ItaliciSed", "UnauthoriSed", "AuthoriSed", "StyliSed", "DramatiSed", "EmphasiSed" and "StandardiSed". None of those words I mentioned are in their preferred Oxford English spelling. According to the preferred Oxford English spelling, they should be spelled with a "Z" (please read
American and British English spelling differences#-ise.2C -ize also feel free to search "AskOxford" at
[1]). Currently, more of the words in this article are spelt in non-Oxford English than in Oxford English. According to Wikipedia Manual of Style, Consistency within articles (see
WP:ENGVAR): "Each article should consistently use the same conventions of spelling, grammar, and punctuation". Oxford English is NOT the same spelling as other forms of British English such as the form used by Cambridge University Press. Oxford English warrants the substitution of the "S" in many words such as "EmphasiSed" (and the earlier mentioned words), with "Z" (e.g emphasised = emphasized). And even if this article isn't meant to be in Oxford English, for the sake of constistency within the article, either popularized should become popularised, or the other words should likewise follow their Oxford English ("Z") equivalents. Someone should maybe think about fixing this. It's no wonder I got confused with the spelling earlier. Hopefully I'm correct this time :). Regards,
Gilly of III (
talk)
11:13, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
In fact, I believe even "recognised" should be "recognized" according to Oxford English... Gilly of III ( talk) 11:21, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks Old Moonraker & Tom Reedy. And that's a good idea about looking each word up, Mr. Reedy. I agree that it is confusing. As Old Moonraker has shown, it appears to be somewhat optional (Although slightly more in favour of the "ize" spelling according to American and British English spelling differences#-ise.2C -ize. It's especially confusing for me because I live in Australia, so naturally even my Oxford Australian Dictionary lists words such as populariZe as populariSe with the "Z" spelling" listed as a varient. I still propose that we change them all to either "ise" or "ize", though -for the sake of consistency. But anyway, particularly you Mr. Reedy, have contributed far more to this article than I have -so I think it should be your choice. Sincerely, Gilly of III ( talk) 13:51, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I've been searching AskOxford and it seems that the words listed are headed with the "z" spelling yet with the "s" spelling in brackets under as a varient. See: [3] - [4] - [5] - [6] - [7] - [8] - [9] - [10]. But, also according to AskOxford [11] "Spellings such as organisation would have struck many older British writers as rather French-looking. The Oxford English Dictionary favoured -ize, partly on the linguistic basis that the suffix derives from the Greek suffix -izo". It still doesn't particularly mention which is preferred now, though, but the Oxford English Dictionary does: "For the suffix more commonly spelt -ise in British English, OUP policy dictates a preference for the spelling -ize, e.g. realize vs realise and globalization vs globalisation" - [12]. On these grounds, I would change them all to ize, but as I mentioned earlier, that's up to you. It should still be one or the other, though, not a confusing and inconsistent use of both. Sincerely, Gilly of III ( talk) 13:50, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I wasn't logged in, the above was my post. Sincerely Gilly of III ( talk) 13:45, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I suppose not, and you've definitely got a good point there. I think it's these quirks and variations in the English language that make it so great. On the brightside, though, I've gone from believing that all "ize" spelling were Americanisms to learning that they were, least in the past, preferred by the Oxford English Dictionary. So I'm happy that I've learned something :D. And as for the consistency, I think I was being a little pedantic, few other people would have been bothered. Wikipedia does say to be bold, though, doesn't it? (Strangely, popularise was included as a variation in the Oxford English Dictionary, too. ;) ) Respectfully, Gilly of III ( talk) 21:25, 5 October 2009 (UTC) -Even if you did try to imply that I was an impoverished speller.
Also, upon reading through the talkpage, I realised that I may have come of as a little bit rude in some of my previous posts (Use of bold, rulebook-bashing, etc). It seems you've been editing this page for a lot longer than I, and for to just blow in randomly challenging things does seem a bit uncalled for. I also think I may have been writing a little pretentiously. Sorry about all of that. : ) Gilly of III ( talk) 21:37, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I certainly wasn't trying to imply that you were an impoverished speller by my little joke. I'm not a Brit, but I played one once on an Oxfordian Web site, and I also was surprised to learn that they used -ize spellings where I thought they would use -ise. From what I understand, -ise is to be used with words of Latin origin, while -ise is reserved for words of Greek origin. Except when they're not. Tom Reedy ( talk) 23:39, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Also, thanks for your input Guillaume. I know exactly what you mean by -ise being British and -ize being American, but this article, (As initially stated by Tom Reedy), is to be written in the way preffered by the Oxford English Dictionary -Which weirdly enough is -ize. This was the reason why I wasn't allowed to edit the word popularize to popularise.. In Australia, we generally use the spelling as everyday Britain: the -ise spelling. It can all seem very confusing at times. Sincerely, Gilly of III ( talk) 05:16, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
I don't care one way or another; all -ise or all -ize or both are all OK with me, or whatever Wikipedia policy calls for. I don't think anybody would be confused about the meaning no matter which one you use. (As to the link, I didn't follow them when you gave them in your post.) Tom Reedy ( talk) 14:13, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Firstly, thanks for participating everyone. If I were to say my biggest problem with regards to the -ise/ize spelling it would be that popularize is the ONLY word in the article being subjected to the OED standards whilst words such as emphasise, stylise, etc are not. My initial reason for even commenting about the spelling was in regards to the spelling of "popularized, I presumed that it was an Americanis(z?)m due to all the other words being spelt in standard British. I wasn't aware that this article was meant to be written in OED spelling so I decided to comment about it. I was then informed by Mr. Reedy that not only the words were to be spelled in OED English, but that "Popularised doesn't even appear within his copy of the OED. I decided to look it up in the online OED (AskOxford)(-Because I only have the Aus OED which mentions popularise as the usual spelling). Upon searching the website I discovered that indeed, "ize" is the preferred spelling with -ise listed as a varient. The interesting thing I discovered though, is that these exact same conditions are applied to the spelling of many of the other words in the article (emphasise, stylise, authorise, etc). To condemn the spelling of one word yet allow the spelling of others which are set under the same conditions just doesn't make sense to me. My only argument so far is that the article should be consistently using either the "-ise" spelling or "-ize". I personally prefer the "-ise" spelling, from my knowledge (and other's input), it's the kind used by most Britons. But. The article's spelling is supposedly meant to revolve around what the Oxford English Dictionary prefers -If it's not using the OED preferred, then I don't see the problem with spelling populariZed as populariSed. My problem is with the consistency: I find the random inclusion of one zed spelling among a majority of S spellings to be completely out of place. I don't know why it bothers me so much, but the Wikipedia MoS seems to backs me up on it. Again, I know I'm being "a little"(very) pedantic, but, I'm just following the Wikipedia guidelines. Also, sorry about my bad grammar/spelling: I'm trying to improve :p. Thanks for your time everyone, Gilly of III ( talk) 13:22, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
^My post(s) above are a bit long/confusing (-On account of my poor grammar)... So here's a quick summary of my argument:
- There's not really much else I have to say about this, so I'm going to let you guys decide. You can even ignore me if you want: it doesn't bother me that much about it not following the OED rules. It's not like it detracts from the article already being very well written and interesting. Sincerely, Gilly of III ( talk) 13:22, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
I would not consider Shakespeare to be significantly British as much as universal. Is Beethoven specifically Austrian? Of course this can be argued but it would be a sort of boring argument. As for American spellings and grammar, I certainly do prefer them as they are superior in clarity and logic. Gingermint ( talk) 04:22, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 |
Is note "e" in the "Authorship" section relevant to the article? Smatprt ( talk) 20:23, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm surprised you haven't brought up Galileo yet. I daresay the statistics indicating the percentage of scientists who believe global warming is real were not gathered by a newspaper via an e-mail survey, hardly my idea of a "serious survey among academics." In addition, vast numbers of climate scientists have signed petitions urging that action be taken to counter the effects of global warming. when vast numbers of Shakespeare scholars and literary historians sign a petition urging the acceptance of the Shakespeare authorship question as a valid literary topic, then we can revisit this issue. As it is now, we have 4 for deletion, 2 against. Who calls the shots on pulling the plug? Tom Reedy ( talk) 01:16, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm waiting for the deluge of all those comments from non-aligned editors, and I don't want to get in a back-and-forth pissing contest with you, but I'll answer your questions and then shut up and wait for all those comments. As for your complaint about misquoting you, I was referring to this comment from you: "As to Tom's complaints, such as the note is 'misleading' because it only includes American universities, well, as always, Tom can find something wrong with just about everything." That is the only point you chose to address. As to your other two comments above, the survey is biased, and my figure of less than 3 percent is more accurate when the bias is taken out of the survey by making the two logical assumptions I mentioned, and I do not consider the survey a reliable source for this article. Tom Reedy ( talk) 03:11, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
We have to be aware of the context here. Firstly, the authorship of many Shakespeare plays is in dispute. For example several collaborators may have worked on the Henry VI plays, and Pericles, Prince of Tyre is generally accepted to have been part-written by other authors. These claims about collaborations, alterations, cuts and other attributions are a standard part of Shakespeare scholarship in just the same way that they are of other authors and artists. To give an analogy, art historians will dispute whether this or that painting is the work of Rembrandt, or by one of his pupils or imitators. There is a whole "Rembrandt Project" dedicated to this. This is wholly different from the claim that the entire works of Rembrandt were actually painted by the Prince of Orange, or whoever. In other words there are two "authorship" debates, the mainstream one concerning attribution, and the "conspiracy theory" one that says Bacon or Oxford or whoever wrote the entire canon. The problem with this survey is that the question as asked does not allow the respondent to distinguish between the two controversies. The wording was, is there "good reason to question whether William Shakespeare of Stratford is the principal author of the plays and poems in the canon." Note the phrase "principal author". There is good reason to believe that he was not the principal author of several plays, so we don't know whether those who answered 'possibly' or 'yes' were accepting that he was not the principal author of some of the plays, or of poems such as A Lover's Complaint. The question seems to be carefully phrased to produce a positive response from some scholars. Furthermore the "possibly" respose may imply simply an acceptance that we can never wholly rule out anything. Possibly Milton did not write Paradise Lost. Who can be absolutely certain? The 'possibly's may simply reflect the scholars' need to affirm their open-mindedness. Also, the survey, as reported merges the 'possibly' responses with the 'yes' responses. And as I said above, even the 'yes' responses could easily be a result of the respondents acceptance that Shakespeare was not the "principal author" of some of the plays. So the problem here is that the survey itself is fundamentally flawed and misleading. Paul B ( talk) 16:40, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I have referenced the appropriate clause with the NYT article and deleted the note. Tom Reedy ( talk) 14:27, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Under "Influence," I read:
Shakespeare influenced novelists such as Thomas Hardy, William Faulkner, and Charles Dickens. Dickens often quoted Shakespeare, drawing 25 of his titles from Shakespeare's works.
Certainly Dickens quoted Shakespeare all over the place, but what twenty-five titles are these? Seems a misleading phrase. Apologies if I'm misunderstanding this completely.
95.134.8.40 ( talk) 19:52, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Aye, there's the rub! I've deleted the offending sentence, but there're a lot of unsupported statements in that section that need to be culled out, such as the sentence previous to the Dickens one. I can think of nothing more useless than vague generalities just for the sake of filling space. Having the main Shakespeare's influence article brought up to FA status is probably what should happen before trying to compress it into a short summary in this article. Unfortunately, I'm busy with other projects at the moment. Tom Reedy ( talk) 15:38, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
I've changed the numbers on the note that was recently added to accurately reflect the survey. Why it was added is beyond me; this article is not supposed to be a digest of antiStratfordian news events. Comments on deleting it? Tom Reedy ( talk) 05:23, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Think about what is in the text —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
82.41.210.3 (
talk)
21:02, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Sir Admin :D, Please Add the Kurdish Sorani Article to the list ckb:ویلیام شێکسپیر Thanks alot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.159.83.97 ( talk) 22:41, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Whilst reading through this article I couldn't help but notice that the spelling of the word popularised was written as its American English equivalent, "popularized". Considering Shakespeare is such a quintessentially British subject, one would expect this article to be written in British English. According with Wikipedia Manual of Style (See WP:ENGVAR) "An article on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation uses the English of that nation." -I know of few other articles with ties as strong to the nation of Britain as Shakespeare, and recommend wholeheartedly that this spelling error be rectified as soon as possible. I'd do it myself, but the article appears to be locked... Gilly of III ( talk) 17:00, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Yeah. I realise that now... I feel like quite the fool. Thanks for replying anyway, it's the only way I'll learn. I guess it is a good thing this article is locked. : ) Gilly of III ( talk) 03:21, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
On second thoughts... This article is not currently written in Oxford English. Although it understandably disallows the non-Oxford preferred word "PopulariSe(d)" in favour of "PopulariZe(d)", it includes words such as "ItaliciSed", "UnauthoriSed", "AuthoriSed", "StyliSed", "DramatiSed", "EmphasiSed" and "StandardiSed". None of those words I mentioned are in their preferred Oxford English spelling. According to the preferred Oxford English spelling, they should be spelled with a "Z" (please read
American and British English spelling differences#-ise.2C -ize also feel free to search "AskOxford" at
[1]). Currently, more of the words in this article are spelt in non-Oxford English than in Oxford English. According to Wikipedia Manual of Style, Consistency within articles (see
WP:ENGVAR): "Each article should consistently use the same conventions of spelling, grammar, and punctuation". Oxford English is NOT the same spelling as other forms of British English such as the form used by Cambridge University Press. Oxford English warrants the substitution of the "S" in many words such as "EmphasiSed" (and the earlier mentioned words), with "Z" (e.g emphasised = emphasized). And even if this article isn't meant to be in Oxford English, for the sake of constistency within the article, either popularized should become popularised, or the other words should likewise follow their Oxford English ("Z") equivalents. Someone should maybe think about fixing this. It's no wonder I got confused with the spelling earlier. Hopefully I'm correct this time :). Regards,
Gilly of III (
talk)
11:13, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
In fact, I believe even "recognised" should be "recognized" according to Oxford English... Gilly of III ( talk) 11:21, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks Old Moonraker & Tom Reedy. And that's a good idea about looking each word up, Mr. Reedy. I agree that it is confusing. As Old Moonraker has shown, it appears to be somewhat optional (Although slightly more in favour of the "ize" spelling according to American and British English spelling differences#-ise.2C -ize. It's especially confusing for me because I live in Australia, so naturally even my Oxford Australian Dictionary lists words such as populariZe as populariSe with the "Z" spelling" listed as a varient. I still propose that we change them all to either "ise" or "ize", though -for the sake of consistency. But anyway, particularly you Mr. Reedy, have contributed far more to this article than I have -so I think it should be your choice. Sincerely, Gilly of III ( talk) 13:51, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I've been searching AskOxford and it seems that the words listed are headed with the "z" spelling yet with the "s" spelling in brackets under as a varient. See: [3] - [4] - [5] - [6] - [7] - [8] - [9] - [10]. But, also according to AskOxford [11] "Spellings such as organisation would have struck many older British writers as rather French-looking. The Oxford English Dictionary favoured -ize, partly on the linguistic basis that the suffix derives from the Greek suffix -izo". It still doesn't particularly mention which is preferred now, though, but the Oxford English Dictionary does: "For the suffix more commonly spelt -ise in British English, OUP policy dictates a preference for the spelling -ize, e.g. realize vs realise and globalization vs globalisation" - [12]. On these grounds, I would change them all to ize, but as I mentioned earlier, that's up to you. It should still be one or the other, though, not a confusing and inconsistent use of both. Sincerely, Gilly of III ( talk) 13:50, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I wasn't logged in, the above was my post. Sincerely Gilly of III ( talk) 13:45, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I suppose not, and you've definitely got a good point there. I think it's these quirks and variations in the English language that make it so great. On the brightside, though, I've gone from believing that all "ize" spelling were Americanisms to learning that they were, least in the past, preferred by the Oxford English Dictionary. So I'm happy that I've learned something :D. And as for the consistency, I think I was being a little pedantic, few other people would have been bothered. Wikipedia does say to be bold, though, doesn't it? (Strangely, popularise was included as a variation in the Oxford English Dictionary, too. ;) ) Respectfully, Gilly of III ( talk) 21:25, 5 October 2009 (UTC) -Even if you did try to imply that I was an impoverished speller.
Also, upon reading through the talkpage, I realised that I may have come of as a little bit rude in some of my previous posts (Use of bold, rulebook-bashing, etc). It seems you've been editing this page for a lot longer than I, and for to just blow in randomly challenging things does seem a bit uncalled for. I also think I may have been writing a little pretentiously. Sorry about all of that. : ) Gilly of III ( talk) 21:37, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I certainly wasn't trying to imply that you were an impoverished speller by my little joke. I'm not a Brit, but I played one once on an Oxfordian Web site, and I also was surprised to learn that they used -ize spellings where I thought they would use -ise. From what I understand, -ise is to be used with words of Latin origin, while -ise is reserved for words of Greek origin. Except when they're not. Tom Reedy ( talk) 23:39, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Also, thanks for your input Guillaume. I know exactly what you mean by -ise being British and -ize being American, but this article, (As initially stated by Tom Reedy), is to be written in the way preffered by the Oxford English Dictionary -Which weirdly enough is -ize. This was the reason why I wasn't allowed to edit the word popularize to popularise.. In Australia, we generally use the spelling as everyday Britain: the -ise spelling. It can all seem very confusing at times. Sincerely, Gilly of III ( talk) 05:16, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
I don't care one way or another; all -ise or all -ize or both are all OK with me, or whatever Wikipedia policy calls for. I don't think anybody would be confused about the meaning no matter which one you use. (As to the link, I didn't follow them when you gave them in your post.) Tom Reedy ( talk) 14:13, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Firstly, thanks for participating everyone. If I were to say my biggest problem with regards to the -ise/ize spelling it would be that popularize is the ONLY word in the article being subjected to the OED standards whilst words such as emphasise, stylise, etc are not. My initial reason for even commenting about the spelling was in regards to the spelling of "popularized, I presumed that it was an Americanis(z?)m due to all the other words being spelt in standard British. I wasn't aware that this article was meant to be written in OED spelling so I decided to comment about it. I was then informed by Mr. Reedy that not only the words were to be spelled in OED English, but that "Popularised doesn't even appear within his copy of the OED. I decided to look it up in the online OED (AskOxford)(-Because I only have the Aus OED which mentions popularise as the usual spelling). Upon searching the website I discovered that indeed, "ize" is the preferred spelling with -ise listed as a varient. The interesting thing I discovered though, is that these exact same conditions are applied to the spelling of many of the other words in the article (emphasise, stylise, authorise, etc). To condemn the spelling of one word yet allow the spelling of others which are set under the same conditions just doesn't make sense to me. My only argument so far is that the article should be consistently using either the "-ise" spelling or "-ize". I personally prefer the "-ise" spelling, from my knowledge (and other's input), it's the kind used by most Britons. But. The article's spelling is supposedly meant to revolve around what the Oxford English Dictionary prefers -If it's not using the OED preferred, then I don't see the problem with spelling populariZed as populariSed. My problem is with the consistency: I find the random inclusion of one zed spelling among a majority of S spellings to be completely out of place. I don't know why it bothers me so much, but the Wikipedia MoS seems to backs me up on it. Again, I know I'm being "a little"(very) pedantic, but, I'm just following the Wikipedia guidelines. Also, sorry about my bad grammar/spelling: I'm trying to improve :p. Thanks for your time everyone, Gilly of III ( talk) 13:22, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
^My post(s) above are a bit long/confusing (-On account of my poor grammar)... So here's a quick summary of my argument:
- There's not really much else I have to say about this, so I'm going to let you guys decide. You can even ignore me if you want: it doesn't bother me that much about it not following the OED rules. It's not like it detracts from the article already being very well written and interesting. Sincerely, Gilly of III ( talk) 13:22, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
I would not consider Shakespeare to be significantly British as much as universal. Is Beethoven specifically Austrian? Of course this can be argued but it would be a sort of boring argument. As for American spellings and grammar, I certainly do prefer them as they are superior in clarity and logic. Gingermint ( talk) 04:22, 8 November 2009 (UTC)