Thanks Ltwin. I appreciate your time and suggested changes. I'll get started revising. Most of my work will probably be done this weekend, but hopefully I can knock some of the little things off the list in the next couple days.
Misterniceguy (
talk)
17:14, 26 June 2018 (UTC)reply
I have reviewed this article according to the requirements of the
GA criteria and have placed the article on hold until the following issues are addressed.
Well written
The lead section is only 1 sentence long.
MOS:LEAD states that "The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic." A good lead section should probably be at least 2 paragraphs but no more than 4.
I rewrote the lead to give a summary of his life and influence. The only concern I have is labeling Parham is a Pentecostal minister because there was no established "Pentecostal" faith back then. However, I think the text supports and explains the statement. I can change it if needed.
Misterniceguy (
talk)
16:13, 30 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Suggestion: It might be better to remove the style "Rev." from the first sentence per
MOS:HON, and it seems out of character for early Pentecostalism, in which participants rejected religious titles and called everyone brother and sister.
You need to spell out that the "Baptist church that the family likely attended" was the New Providence one because the way it is written currently makes it seem as if there were two Baptist churches he attended.
The 3rd paragraph needs to be copy edited. There is redundant information; for example, we are told twice that Seymour met Charles Price Jones.Misterniceguy (
talk)
14:52, 30 June 2018 (UTC)reply
The last sentence in paragraph 3 should be moved to the 4th paragraph, since it fits with that information better.
When discussing Parham’s doctrine, you need to mention and link to
baptism in the Holy Spirit because speaking in tongues was never the goal itself but only as a sign of Spirit baptism.
"Houston was especially receptive to Parham's teaching, and in the summer of 1905, he made the city his base of operations." – This sentence is slightly confusing. On first reading, "Houston" sounds like a person who likes Parham’s teachings.
The 3rd sentence of the 5th paragraph under "Early career" suggests that Parham and Seymour were praying together for his Spirit baptism, but the sources cited don't say that. Robeck writes that Seymour sought the baptism but did not receive it during his time working with Parham.
I made a few changes. I brought the sentence more in line with Robeck. I also added that Parham only permitted Seymour to preach to blacks. This helps explain their rift later on.
Misterniceguy (
talk)
16:19, 29 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Throughout the "Azusa Street Revival" section the word "spirit" needs to begin with a capital letter because it refers to baptism in the Holy Spirit.
"another African American's house owned by Richard Asberry" – Is Richard Asberry the African American who lived in the house or someone else? The sentence is unclear.
Is the paragraph-long quote from R. G. Robins necessary? Couldn't anything important in it be put in Wikipedia’s own words in a much more concise manner?Misterniceguy (
talk)
15:28, 30 June 2018 (UTC)reply
**Lake, "Origins of the Apostolic Faith Movement," 3.
Lake, "Origins of the Apostolic Faith Movement," 3; Irwin, "Charles Price Jones," 45.
AF (December 1906): I; AF, "The Same Old Way," 3; AF, Bible Pentecost," I; Bartleman, Azusa Street, 47, 54.
If "AF" is The Apostolic Faith', keep in mind it and Bartleman’s book are not reliable secondary sources. You can include these in a "Further reading" section as primary sources, but they should not be used for purposes of verifying information in the article.
"while enduring racial discrimination—an experience that may later have encouraged him to emphasize racial equality at the Azusa mission." – I couldn't find support for this last statement in the citation given.
The second paragraph under "Early career" needs to be checked against Robeck. Robeck does not say that Seymour was definitively a student of Knapp's (I also don't see where he says they were "close associates"). Robeck states that it was "likely" Seymour attended the Bible college.
You made a good point. I reread Robeck and added Synan to the reference. I also added "probably" and removed "close associate." I think he was, but I've exhausted my research on this point. Here are a couple quotes: "Three important factors must have attracted Seymour to study at 'God's Bible School'".(Robeck p=33) "Seymour may have briefly attended 'God's Bible School'"(Synan, p=32) "By the late 1890's, his (Seymour) closest association appears to have been with Knapp and Rees's International Holiness Union and Prayer League, whose God's Bible School he reportedly attended.(Robins, p=25) "Though precise details have yet to be documented about Knapp's direct direct impact on Seymour's theology, there appears to be general consensus among scholars that Knapp did have an effect on him."(Synan, p=32) "He sat at the feet of a number of Wesleyan holiness teachers over the years over the previous half dozen years - among them Martin Wells Knapp..."(Robeck, p=62) With these in mind, I think this warrants a "probably". :)
Misterniceguy (
talk)
17:00, 29 June 2018 (UTC)reply
On Parham, the article claims he was an "important figure" in the holiness movement. Is there a reliable source for this? The sources I'm aware of paint him and early Pentecostals in general as on the fringes of the holiness movement.
All the sources associate him in some way with the holiness movement because that is where most of his audience came from. However, I removed that statement in my copy edit because the new Parham material covers that statement.
Misterniceguy (
talk)
14:24, 30 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Broad coverage
The sections on the revival and its decline are quite long. For ease of reading, you might want to consider dividing these sections further.
"There is no doubt that Seymour started the Azusa Street Revival that gave rise to all modern Pentecostal faiths." (Legacy and influence) – This sounds promotional. Also, the source used is from an online article that is a dead link. There are better sources available to establish the centrality of Azusa Street to Pentecostal origins. Perhaps you could replace this sentence with something like "All major Pentecostal denominations trace their origins to Azusa Street" or something similar.
This was an informative article that covered all the main aspects of Seymour's life. There were some issues with sourcing, verification and prose that need to be addressed before this article can be passed.
Ltwin (
talk)
06:02, 26 June 2018 (UTC)reply
@Ltwin, thanks for the review and all the suggestions. Thanks also to John Foxe for his editing. I think I took care of all of the concerns. The article is much improved and ready for a final review. I'll be watching for any more suggestions.
Misterniceguy (
talk)
16:19, 30 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Thanks Ltwin. I appreciate your time and suggested changes. I'll get started revising. Most of my work will probably be done this weekend, but hopefully I can knock some of the little things off the list in the next couple days.
Misterniceguy (
talk)
17:14, 26 June 2018 (UTC)reply
I have reviewed this article according to the requirements of the
GA criteria and have placed the article on hold until the following issues are addressed.
Well written
The lead section is only 1 sentence long.
MOS:LEAD states that "The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic." A good lead section should probably be at least 2 paragraphs but no more than 4.
I rewrote the lead to give a summary of his life and influence. The only concern I have is labeling Parham is a Pentecostal minister because there was no established "Pentecostal" faith back then. However, I think the text supports and explains the statement. I can change it if needed.
Misterniceguy (
talk)
16:13, 30 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Suggestion: It might be better to remove the style "Rev." from the first sentence per
MOS:HON, and it seems out of character for early Pentecostalism, in which participants rejected religious titles and called everyone brother and sister.
You need to spell out that the "Baptist church that the family likely attended" was the New Providence one because the way it is written currently makes it seem as if there were two Baptist churches he attended.
The 3rd paragraph needs to be copy edited. There is redundant information; for example, we are told twice that Seymour met Charles Price Jones.Misterniceguy (
talk)
14:52, 30 June 2018 (UTC)reply
The last sentence in paragraph 3 should be moved to the 4th paragraph, since it fits with that information better.
When discussing Parham’s doctrine, you need to mention and link to
baptism in the Holy Spirit because speaking in tongues was never the goal itself but only as a sign of Spirit baptism.
"Houston was especially receptive to Parham's teaching, and in the summer of 1905, he made the city his base of operations." – This sentence is slightly confusing. On first reading, "Houston" sounds like a person who likes Parham’s teachings.
The 3rd sentence of the 5th paragraph under "Early career" suggests that Parham and Seymour were praying together for his Spirit baptism, but the sources cited don't say that. Robeck writes that Seymour sought the baptism but did not receive it during his time working with Parham.
I made a few changes. I brought the sentence more in line with Robeck. I also added that Parham only permitted Seymour to preach to blacks. This helps explain their rift later on.
Misterniceguy (
talk)
16:19, 29 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Throughout the "Azusa Street Revival" section the word "spirit" needs to begin with a capital letter because it refers to baptism in the Holy Spirit.
"another African American's house owned by Richard Asberry" – Is Richard Asberry the African American who lived in the house or someone else? The sentence is unclear.
Is the paragraph-long quote from R. G. Robins necessary? Couldn't anything important in it be put in Wikipedia’s own words in a much more concise manner?Misterniceguy (
talk)
15:28, 30 June 2018 (UTC)reply
**Lake, "Origins of the Apostolic Faith Movement," 3.
Lake, "Origins of the Apostolic Faith Movement," 3; Irwin, "Charles Price Jones," 45.
AF (December 1906): I; AF, "The Same Old Way," 3; AF, Bible Pentecost," I; Bartleman, Azusa Street, 47, 54.
If "AF" is The Apostolic Faith', keep in mind it and Bartleman’s book are not reliable secondary sources. You can include these in a "Further reading" section as primary sources, but they should not be used for purposes of verifying information in the article.
"while enduring racial discrimination—an experience that may later have encouraged him to emphasize racial equality at the Azusa mission." – I couldn't find support for this last statement in the citation given.
The second paragraph under "Early career" needs to be checked against Robeck. Robeck does not say that Seymour was definitively a student of Knapp's (I also don't see where he says they were "close associates"). Robeck states that it was "likely" Seymour attended the Bible college.
You made a good point. I reread Robeck and added Synan to the reference. I also added "probably" and removed "close associate." I think he was, but I've exhausted my research on this point. Here are a couple quotes: "Three important factors must have attracted Seymour to study at 'God's Bible School'".(Robeck p=33) "Seymour may have briefly attended 'God's Bible School'"(Synan, p=32) "By the late 1890's, his (Seymour) closest association appears to have been with Knapp and Rees's International Holiness Union and Prayer League, whose God's Bible School he reportedly attended.(Robins, p=25) "Though precise details have yet to be documented about Knapp's direct direct impact on Seymour's theology, there appears to be general consensus among scholars that Knapp did have an effect on him."(Synan, p=32) "He sat at the feet of a number of Wesleyan holiness teachers over the years over the previous half dozen years - among them Martin Wells Knapp..."(Robeck, p=62) With these in mind, I think this warrants a "probably". :)
Misterniceguy (
talk)
17:00, 29 June 2018 (UTC)reply
On Parham, the article claims he was an "important figure" in the holiness movement. Is there a reliable source for this? The sources I'm aware of paint him and early Pentecostals in general as on the fringes of the holiness movement.
All the sources associate him in some way with the holiness movement because that is where most of his audience came from. However, I removed that statement in my copy edit because the new Parham material covers that statement.
Misterniceguy (
talk)
14:24, 30 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Broad coverage
The sections on the revival and its decline are quite long. For ease of reading, you might want to consider dividing these sections further.
"There is no doubt that Seymour started the Azusa Street Revival that gave rise to all modern Pentecostal faiths." (Legacy and influence) – This sounds promotional. Also, the source used is from an online article that is a dead link. There are better sources available to establish the centrality of Azusa Street to Pentecostal origins. Perhaps you could replace this sentence with something like "All major Pentecostal denominations trace their origins to Azusa Street" or something similar.
This was an informative article that covered all the main aspects of Seymour's life. There were some issues with sourcing, verification and prose that need to be addressed before this article can be passed.
Ltwin (
talk)
06:02, 26 June 2018 (UTC)reply
@Ltwin, thanks for the review and all the suggestions. Thanks also to John Foxe for his editing. I think I took care of all of the concerns. The article is much improved and ready for a final review. I'll be watching for any more suggestions.
Misterniceguy (
talk)
16:19, 30 June 2018 (UTC)reply