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I've added earth coordinates to note (within a few feet) where Taylor's body was found, based on this map of the Alvarado Court apartments and descriptions of his bungalow. The site is on the north side of an asphalt parking lot. Gwen Gale ( talk) 09:20, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
In the text of the article it states Minter's age as 19. However, according to the book WORLD FAMOUS UNSOLVED CRIMES, apparently it was revealed in the aftermath of the murder of Taylor that Miss Minter's age was 30, not 20 (or 19 as listed in the article). Halfabeet ( talk) 12:19, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
The reliable sources I've seen say she was born in 1902. Gwen Gale ( talk) 13:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
In the book WORLD FAMOUS UNSOLVED CRIMES by the eminent Colin Wilson, it states that it was later revealed that Sands was in fact Taylor's brother, Denis, who had come to America with him years before. Wilson is usually a very reliable source Halfabeet ( talk) 12:16, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
This sourced assertion is highly problematic. First, who are "all leading authorities"? The source, which is a Microsoft Network entertainment blurb, does not say who these "authorities" are, or why they might dismiss Gibson's claim. Second, this looks like a very weak tertiary source which notes zero background or research into its sweeping, clearly mistaken assumption. The source does not meet WP:RS. I will remove this assertion and the source in time if no more reliable and thorough source is provided. Please note, this Wikipedia article does not assert that Gibson murdered Taylor, but that she made a dying confession to the murder, which is considered to be credible.
I would further ask that major edits having to do with this be discussed here on the talk page so other editors can participate. Thanks. Gwen Gale ( talk) 05:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I know Bruce Long personally and I worked with him at ASU. We were both staff members and he never presented himself or even implied he was a professor. Of course he referenced his employment at a University as that is where he worked for the majority of his career. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:58C:C580:110:BCA8:7B9E:9C33:5795 ( talk) 02:25, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
I don't see why there's a problem with Taylorology as a source--it's probably the best source of information concerning the case. However I fail to have read anything in Taylorology that claims that either Gibson or Gibson's confession is any more credible than any other information in the case. The fact that Mr. Long continued to publish 12 more editions of Taylorology, including other theories of the murder, after the Gibson story appeared, certainly suggests that he did not consider the Gibson theory to be any kind of "final solution" to the case. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Revmagpie ( talk • contribs) 06:12, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Let's return to the topic of the MSN Reference, which really comes from All Movie Guide: "The claim, however, has been dismissed by all leading authorities..." [fair use fragment]. If I humbly accept that I (Bruce Long) am a "leading authority" on the Taylor case, then the statement is not 100% true, since I (a member of the "all") have not "dismissed" the claim, assuming "the claim" refers to whether or not the confession is the truth, that if true then Gibson did indeed kill Taylor. But neither have I accepted "the claim." This is not an either/or, dismiss-or-accept, matter. Anyway, I've e-mailed the author of that AMG statement, asking him: "Can you provide any sources (published or anecdotal) for that statement that leading authorities have all dismissed the claim?" If he provides an answer, I will share it here and hopefully it will lead to a peaceful resolution of this remove/restore loop for the MSN Reference. -- Pikabruce ( talk) 23:50, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Cleo123 wrote above: I find it fascinating that no book has been published espousing Long's [sic] theory. Book publication of the Gibson confession can be found in Dishing Hollywood: The Real Scoop on Tinseltown's Most Notorious Scandals by Laurie Jacobson. "Search Inside" for Margaret Gibson, and the extract can be found on pages 57-58. From the text, it appears to have used The History Channel documentary as source. -- Pikabruce ( talk) 21:47, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I fail to see how Gibson's history of lying and blackmail can seriously be put forward as evidence of her credibility. Under normal circumstances, doesn't a proven history of dishonesty actually hurt credibility? Revmagpie ( talk) 05:09, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
"...none of the sources cited are in any position to state that Gibson's confession is "credible" (and in fact Mr. Long never does). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Revmagpie ( talk • contribs) 06:34, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Although Long does not discuss "credibility", he does discuss "probability", in Taylorology 85:
The confession alone, if it came from a Jane Doe, would have an extemely low level of probability. But the confessor: (a.) Worked with Taylor for six months; (b.) Had sinister associates, one of whom was a major blackmailer; (c.) Was arrested for extortion stemming from events which took place less than a year after the Taylor murder; (d.) Was given at least two acting roles at Famous Players-Lasky in the year following the murder. Put it all together with the confession, and the probability rises considerably.
In private conversations, Long has estimated that he currently would allow Gibson a 10% probability of being connected with the murder. Whether that rises to the level of being "credible" could be debated endlessly.
Unless an expert is specifically quoted on whether the confession is "credible", perhaps uses of "credible" or "credibility" should simply be deleted? -- Pikabruce ( talk) 12:11, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
The alleged confession of Gibson, which I continue to contend as improperly sourced, has no place in the opening paragraph of this article. This is an unsolved murder. That is the fact. Inserting this information into the opening paragraph is IMO an act of editorial bias. The article reads as if Wikipedia is trying to offer readers "its" solution to the murder. It reads as if we are trying to "lead" readers to a conclusion. I am removing it in accordance with WP:NPOV. Although I am very busy for the next couple of days; I think may be worthwhile to open an RFC regarding Taylorolgy as a reliable source and the neutrality of this article and Gibson's biography. When I have the time, that is what I will do, if someone else doesn't do it first. I think some objective "outside" eyes might be helpful in resolving this content dispute.
I will also note that Raphael Long's interview with the History Channel is apparently scheduled to be re-run on the History Channel this Saturday, April 3, at 12:00am. I plan to record it and compile additional information on Ralph Long. Whenever possible first hand sources are always preferable. I believe we should stick to the facts and allow our readers to decide for themselves how credible Long's revelations are. Cleo123 ( talk) 05:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
No, nobody needs Gwen Gale's prior permission to make edits. Or Cleo123's. Or mine.
But clearly you and other parties here have a disagreement over content and presentation. So please do your arguing over these here on this talk page, and as coolly as possible. For emphasis, try italicizing (even if you think capitals are perfectly OK); if somebody seems to overcapitalize, put up with it (even if you think it's shouting).
Stories presented by the infotainment network MSN seem feeble (though they might not be). Self-published material by somebody who seems to have dedicated vast swathes of his life to the murder of this person seems dodgy (though again it might not be). The seemingly intelligent amazon.com reviews of a relevant book from an actual university press strongly suggest that the publisher did nothing to inspire and that instead Charles Higham sunk below his usual gossipy level. Perhaps you should first come to an agreement on the credibility of sources and only then move on to what they say. -- Hoary ( talk) 11:56, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
In the past few months there have been many media interviews with Kimberly Peirce the director of Stop-Loss. In a lot of those interviews she discusses her preparation work for a William Desmond Taylor film, which has not yet been made. When discussing that Taylor project, she says she has solved the case. For example, in the Washington Post it says: So Peirce says she solved the murder ("We did! I'm a big researcher"),... There are links to many of her media interviews on the Kimberly Peirce Fan Website; I've only looked at a few of them, but the claim to have solved the Taylor murder appears repeatedly. In the interview at Movies Online, she says, "I got everything that had ever been written on it. We solved the murder mystery. We figured out who did it, how they did it, and how and why it had to be covered up."
I'm not sure if this is worthy of noting in Taylor's Wikipedia article (or on Peirce's Wikipedia article) so I'm tossing it up for possible discussion here. -- Pikabruce ( talk) 15:28, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Alma Rubens didn't die until 1931. Your paragraph refers to scandals of the early 1920's that brought about morality clauses. As her tragic death and downfall occured long after the introduction of these morality clauses, I have removed her name from the paragraph so it does not contain this innaccuracy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.192.47.13 ( talk) 17:01, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
The recent numerous edits by Kingstowngalway seem to be primarily sourced to Giroux's "A Deed of Death", which contains many errors. Some of the errors were included in those edits (like the erroneous statement that Taylor was in the Canadian Army). Just because material has appeared in a book does not make it a trustworthy source or worthy of inclusion in a Wikipedia article. The Peavey abduction incident is probably more suited to the page on Henry Peavey than here, and if it is included it should be based on the verbatim statements made by Peavey and Woolwine, and not on Giroux's inaccurate second-hand retelling of Muir's account. -- Pikabruce ( talk) 00:19, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm doubtful about the 21 December 2011 edits made by Lockley. I have seen no contemporary evidence that Taylor directed A Soul Astray, A Story of Little Italy, The Son of Thomas Gray, The Beggar Child, The Song of the Sea Shell, or A Slice of Life. Taylor's film career is fairly well documented, and I have seen nothing to indicate that he worked for American Film until 1915. IMDB is very unreliable. According to the scholarly U.C. Santa Barbara web site http://www.filmandmedia.ucsb.edu/flyinga , A Soul Astray was directed by Thomas Ricketts; A Story of Little Italy and The Son of Thomas Gray were directed by Lorimer Johnston; The Beggar Child, The Song of the Sea Shell and A Slice of Life were directed by Henry Otto; Even if Taylor did direct those films (which I doubt), what makes them "notable"? They were not feature films and made no impact, then or afterward. If they are listed, then I suggest the "notable" adjective be deleted. -- Pikabruce ( talk) 17:19, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
This has no source. On the other hand, Sydney D. Kirkpatrick in "A Cast of Killers" says "And the family wasn't from a long and important line of Irish families, as Taylor had told many of his Hollywood friends, but from a simple hard-working, and uprigth Catholic family..." (p. 40, 1987 Penguin ed). The Wiki article linked to at "Anglo-Irish people" specifies that Anglo-Irish means probably Anglican but at least Protestant affiliation. Now, I have no reason to take Kirkpatrick's word over that of the author of this article, but a source would be good. -- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 19:05, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Why use British English when he was an American and most of his life was spent in the USA? BeenAroundAWhile ( talk) 03:32, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
More substance should be required before including the speculative rumor that Norma Desmond's name was taken from Taylor's middle name and Mabel Normand's last name. In lack of solid evidence, it seems more likely that Norma was taken from Norma Talmadge and Desmond was probably taken from the actor William Desmond. Pikabruce ( talk) 21:35, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
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"Shortly before she died in 1964, Gibson reportedly confessed to murdering Taylor."
"Reportedly" is being used here to sneak in an uncited assertion.
The word means that there is a report of the factoid and yet no report is cited.
![]() | A fact from William Desmond Taylor appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 6 April 2004. The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I've added earth coordinates to note (within a few feet) where Taylor's body was found, based on this map of the Alvarado Court apartments and descriptions of his bungalow. The site is on the north side of an asphalt parking lot. Gwen Gale ( talk) 09:20, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
In the text of the article it states Minter's age as 19. However, according to the book WORLD FAMOUS UNSOLVED CRIMES, apparently it was revealed in the aftermath of the murder of Taylor that Miss Minter's age was 30, not 20 (or 19 as listed in the article). Halfabeet ( talk) 12:19, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
The reliable sources I've seen say she was born in 1902. Gwen Gale ( talk) 13:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
In the book WORLD FAMOUS UNSOLVED CRIMES by the eminent Colin Wilson, it states that it was later revealed that Sands was in fact Taylor's brother, Denis, who had come to America with him years before. Wilson is usually a very reliable source Halfabeet ( talk) 12:16, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
This sourced assertion is highly problematic. First, who are "all leading authorities"? The source, which is a Microsoft Network entertainment blurb, does not say who these "authorities" are, or why they might dismiss Gibson's claim. Second, this looks like a very weak tertiary source which notes zero background or research into its sweeping, clearly mistaken assumption. The source does not meet WP:RS. I will remove this assertion and the source in time if no more reliable and thorough source is provided. Please note, this Wikipedia article does not assert that Gibson murdered Taylor, but that she made a dying confession to the murder, which is considered to be credible.
I would further ask that major edits having to do with this be discussed here on the talk page so other editors can participate. Thanks. Gwen Gale ( talk) 05:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I know Bruce Long personally and I worked with him at ASU. We were both staff members and he never presented himself or even implied he was a professor. Of course he referenced his employment at a University as that is where he worked for the majority of his career. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:58C:C580:110:BCA8:7B9E:9C33:5795 ( talk) 02:25, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
I don't see why there's a problem with Taylorology as a source--it's probably the best source of information concerning the case. However I fail to have read anything in Taylorology that claims that either Gibson or Gibson's confession is any more credible than any other information in the case. The fact that Mr. Long continued to publish 12 more editions of Taylorology, including other theories of the murder, after the Gibson story appeared, certainly suggests that he did not consider the Gibson theory to be any kind of "final solution" to the case. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Revmagpie ( talk • contribs) 06:12, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Let's return to the topic of the MSN Reference, which really comes from All Movie Guide: "The claim, however, has been dismissed by all leading authorities..." [fair use fragment]. If I humbly accept that I (Bruce Long) am a "leading authority" on the Taylor case, then the statement is not 100% true, since I (a member of the "all") have not "dismissed" the claim, assuming "the claim" refers to whether or not the confession is the truth, that if true then Gibson did indeed kill Taylor. But neither have I accepted "the claim." This is not an either/or, dismiss-or-accept, matter. Anyway, I've e-mailed the author of that AMG statement, asking him: "Can you provide any sources (published or anecdotal) for that statement that leading authorities have all dismissed the claim?" If he provides an answer, I will share it here and hopefully it will lead to a peaceful resolution of this remove/restore loop for the MSN Reference. -- Pikabruce ( talk) 23:50, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Cleo123 wrote above: I find it fascinating that no book has been published espousing Long's [sic] theory. Book publication of the Gibson confession can be found in Dishing Hollywood: The Real Scoop on Tinseltown's Most Notorious Scandals by Laurie Jacobson. "Search Inside" for Margaret Gibson, and the extract can be found on pages 57-58. From the text, it appears to have used The History Channel documentary as source. -- Pikabruce ( talk) 21:47, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I fail to see how Gibson's history of lying and blackmail can seriously be put forward as evidence of her credibility. Under normal circumstances, doesn't a proven history of dishonesty actually hurt credibility? Revmagpie ( talk) 05:09, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
"...none of the sources cited are in any position to state that Gibson's confession is "credible" (and in fact Mr. Long never does). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Revmagpie ( talk • contribs) 06:34, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Although Long does not discuss "credibility", he does discuss "probability", in Taylorology 85:
The confession alone, if it came from a Jane Doe, would have an extemely low level of probability. But the confessor: (a.) Worked with Taylor for six months; (b.) Had sinister associates, one of whom was a major blackmailer; (c.) Was arrested for extortion stemming from events which took place less than a year after the Taylor murder; (d.) Was given at least two acting roles at Famous Players-Lasky in the year following the murder. Put it all together with the confession, and the probability rises considerably.
In private conversations, Long has estimated that he currently would allow Gibson a 10% probability of being connected with the murder. Whether that rises to the level of being "credible" could be debated endlessly.
Unless an expert is specifically quoted on whether the confession is "credible", perhaps uses of "credible" or "credibility" should simply be deleted? -- Pikabruce ( talk) 12:11, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
The alleged confession of Gibson, which I continue to contend as improperly sourced, has no place in the opening paragraph of this article. This is an unsolved murder. That is the fact. Inserting this information into the opening paragraph is IMO an act of editorial bias. The article reads as if Wikipedia is trying to offer readers "its" solution to the murder. It reads as if we are trying to "lead" readers to a conclusion. I am removing it in accordance with WP:NPOV. Although I am very busy for the next couple of days; I think may be worthwhile to open an RFC regarding Taylorolgy as a reliable source and the neutrality of this article and Gibson's biography. When I have the time, that is what I will do, if someone else doesn't do it first. I think some objective "outside" eyes might be helpful in resolving this content dispute.
I will also note that Raphael Long's interview with the History Channel is apparently scheduled to be re-run on the History Channel this Saturday, April 3, at 12:00am. I plan to record it and compile additional information on Ralph Long. Whenever possible first hand sources are always preferable. I believe we should stick to the facts and allow our readers to decide for themselves how credible Long's revelations are. Cleo123 ( talk) 05:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
No, nobody needs Gwen Gale's prior permission to make edits. Or Cleo123's. Or mine.
But clearly you and other parties here have a disagreement over content and presentation. So please do your arguing over these here on this talk page, and as coolly as possible. For emphasis, try italicizing (even if you think capitals are perfectly OK); if somebody seems to overcapitalize, put up with it (even if you think it's shouting).
Stories presented by the infotainment network MSN seem feeble (though they might not be). Self-published material by somebody who seems to have dedicated vast swathes of his life to the murder of this person seems dodgy (though again it might not be). The seemingly intelligent amazon.com reviews of a relevant book from an actual university press strongly suggest that the publisher did nothing to inspire and that instead Charles Higham sunk below his usual gossipy level. Perhaps you should first come to an agreement on the credibility of sources and only then move on to what they say. -- Hoary ( talk) 11:56, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
In the past few months there have been many media interviews with Kimberly Peirce the director of Stop-Loss. In a lot of those interviews she discusses her preparation work for a William Desmond Taylor film, which has not yet been made. When discussing that Taylor project, she says she has solved the case. For example, in the Washington Post it says: So Peirce says she solved the murder ("We did! I'm a big researcher"),... There are links to many of her media interviews on the Kimberly Peirce Fan Website; I've only looked at a few of them, but the claim to have solved the Taylor murder appears repeatedly. In the interview at Movies Online, she says, "I got everything that had ever been written on it. We solved the murder mystery. We figured out who did it, how they did it, and how and why it had to be covered up."
I'm not sure if this is worthy of noting in Taylor's Wikipedia article (or on Peirce's Wikipedia article) so I'm tossing it up for possible discussion here. -- Pikabruce ( talk) 15:28, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Alma Rubens didn't die until 1931. Your paragraph refers to scandals of the early 1920's that brought about morality clauses. As her tragic death and downfall occured long after the introduction of these morality clauses, I have removed her name from the paragraph so it does not contain this innaccuracy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.192.47.13 ( talk) 17:01, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
The recent numerous edits by Kingstowngalway seem to be primarily sourced to Giroux's "A Deed of Death", which contains many errors. Some of the errors were included in those edits (like the erroneous statement that Taylor was in the Canadian Army). Just because material has appeared in a book does not make it a trustworthy source or worthy of inclusion in a Wikipedia article. The Peavey abduction incident is probably more suited to the page on Henry Peavey than here, and if it is included it should be based on the verbatim statements made by Peavey and Woolwine, and not on Giroux's inaccurate second-hand retelling of Muir's account. -- Pikabruce ( talk) 00:19, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm doubtful about the 21 December 2011 edits made by Lockley. I have seen no contemporary evidence that Taylor directed A Soul Astray, A Story of Little Italy, The Son of Thomas Gray, The Beggar Child, The Song of the Sea Shell, or A Slice of Life. Taylor's film career is fairly well documented, and I have seen nothing to indicate that he worked for American Film until 1915. IMDB is very unreliable. According to the scholarly U.C. Santa Barbara web site http://www.filmandmedia.ucsb.edu/flyinga , A Soul Astray was directed by Thomas Ricketts; A Story of Little Italy and The Son of Thomas Gray were directed by Lorimer Johnston; The Beggar Child, The Song of the Sea Shell and A Slice of Life were directed by Henry Otto; Even if Taylor did direct those films (which I doubt), what makes them "notable"? They were not feature films and made no impact, then or afterward. If they are listed, then I suggest the "notable" adjective be deleted. -- Pikabruce ( talk) 17:19, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
This has no source. On the other hand, Sydney D. Kirkpatrick in "A Cast of Killers" says "And the family wasn't from a long and important line of Irish families, as Taylor had told many of his Hollywood friends, but from a simple hard-working, and uprigth Catholic family..." (p. 40, 1987 Penguin ed). The Wiki article linked to at "Anglo-Irish people" specifies that Anglo-Irish means probably Anglican but at least Protestant affiliation. Now, I have no reason to take Kirkpatrick's word over that of the author of this article, but a source would be good. -- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 19:05, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Why use British English when he was an American and most of his life was spent in the USA? BeenAroundAWhile ( talk) 03:32, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
More substance should be required before including the speculative rumor that Norma Desmond's name was taken from Taylor's middle name and Mabel Normand's last name. In lack of solid evidence, it seems more likely that Norma was taken from Norma Talmadge and Desmond was probably taken from the actor William Desmond. Pikabruce ( talk) 21:35, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
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"Shortly before she died in 1964, Gibson reportedly confessed to murdering Taylor."
"Reportedly" is being used here to sneak in an uncited assertion.
The word means that there is a report of the factoid and yet no report is cited.