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I fixed up some grammar, but it was difficult to edit because this page needs a LOT more cited sources. It's hard to edit and improve the style and structure if the actual events are unclear.
Similarly a lot of this reads too well (although with imperfect grammar) and has too much detail, as if it is a translation of a foreign book or article. If so, the source should be cited.
I agree with the unattributed comments below: Canaris is fascinating and his story deserves a better article.
Troy88 08:04, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I think this entry needs a lot more work:
1) The quality of writing needs improving
2) There are too many claims made without citing sources or references
Canaris is a fascinating figure & this entry doesn't do him justice!
The "Family" section is repeting the same info at "Early life and WWI" section! Please try to fix it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.196.207.173 ( talk) 15:40, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Was this man the officer with the same name involved in Rosa murder? 201.51.44.148 00:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
He was not involved with the murder. He was a member of the courts martial of the people accussed of the murder. See http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/biografien/CanarisWilhelm/ TinyMark 05:31, 14 August 2007 (UTC) She was leading a Communist insurrection.That certainly deserves a death penalty. 190.241.63.32 ( talk) 14:27, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
I don't think you can use such certain language to describe Canaris' involvement with assassination plans - are these historical facts? There seems to be much more ambiguity here than the entry indicates.
--
Krupo
07:03, 1 May 2004 (UTC)
Canaris was executed by slow strangulation
I thought Canaris was hanged? Is supposed to imply that the hanging wasn't very well, uhm, executed? Fornadan (t) 14:45, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Trying not to get into the gruesome details, yes an efficient hanging is an acquired art form. The distance the body drops should be far enough so that the rope instantly breaks the victim's neck and not too far that the head is severed. If the body does not fall far enough then the victim dies slowly by strangulation. The Nazis deliberately preferred the latter method; often using piano wire, the victim was allowed to fall just a few inches or was hoisted-up off the ground by the neck, resulting in a very slow, painful and barbaric death. I don't know if there is any evidence of this method being used on Canaris but other members of the conspiracy to assassinate Hitler were strung up with piano wire on meat hooks with the event being filmed for Hitler's viewing pleasure by all accounts.
--
Psywar
06:42, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
"hanging" can either be by dropping the victim with the knot under one ear - thus breaking the neck due to lateral forces (most 'modern' hangings are done this way) - or by placing the rope around the neck of the victim and dragging them upwards - as done in lynchings - death is caused by slow, painful strangulation. I have heard that they were 'half-hung' with piano wire and filmed, for the Fuher's enjoyment. Is this true? I can't find any reliable sorces that can confirm this.
Why has Canaris been put under the category of "Male Strippers"?
Is there something we don't know about him? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.25.82.46 ( talk) 00:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC).
The IP above 203.25.82.46 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) placed the category of 'Male Strippers into the article. I have removed the vandalism and placed a warning on their userpage. Cynrin 01:02, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
"While preparing to surrender in Camberland Bay, the Dresden was attacked and finally sunk by the British in a largely disputed act withstanding the Geneva Convention."
The Canaris photograph is printed incorrectly. The ribbon bar on his uniform should be on the left side of his uniform, not the right as seen in the photo. ```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vlupiano ( talk • contribs) 18:08, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Eye of the Needle
Canaris is mentioned multiple times in retrospective and as the handler of abwehr agent "Die Nadel"s in Ken Follet's fiction novel, The Eye of the Needle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.31.184.166 ( talk) 20:15, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
NCIS
Is this likely to be the same Canaris mentioned by 'Ducky' in the NCIS episode 'The Immortals' - S01E04? 125.237.96.178 ( talk) 07:44, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Canaris may by a Righteous among the Nations http://derstandard.at/fs/1246543875069/Ultraorthodoxe-fordern-Ehrung-des-deutschen-Admirals-Canaris —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.216.89.205 ( talk) 09:01, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
The article creates an impression that the head on Nazi Germany's military intelligence performed primarily anti-German activity during WWII. This contradicts to the fact that Abwehr was one of the most efficient intelligences during WWII. It is quite necessary to tell more about Canaris' primary activity.-- Paul Siebert ( talk) 15:53, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
He was not anti-German but exactly the opposite!! He was a German patriot as well as he was a convinced human rights activist. For both reasons he could only fight for a better and human Germany - for such a Germany, he liked. He saw, that Hitler's victories bolstered the regime more and more and wished a situation that made it possible to sweep the regime away. He also saw the evil of Stalinism. I think, he wished both totalitarian inhuman regimes to hell.
P.S.: No light without shadow. Canaris anticommunism in the time after WW1 was often a source of controversal discussions and also on this discussion page. (s. chapter 'Rosa Luxemburg' above.)
-- Henrig ( talk) 15:55, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Some historians believe that Wilhelm Canaris was not mistaken about his relationship with the Greek Admiral (who died only 10 years before Wilhelm was born), and that this 'official' family history was politically motivated, due to Nazi Germany's alliance with Fascist Italy and its hostility with Greece, which coincides suspiciously with the time of the Greco-Italian War of 1940-1941. This should be worked into the article. Otherwise we my be enabling Nazi lies to endure.-- Nikoz78 ( talk) 15:42, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
-- Euzen ( talk) 11:03, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
Why isn't this mentioned in the article? "...Admiral Wilhelm Canaris provides an example as he “had grown up in the atmosphere of “moderate” anti-Semitism prevailing in the Ruhr middle class and in the Navy believed in the existence of a “Jewish problem”” and would “suggest during 1935-1936 that German Jews should be identified by a Star of David as special category citizens….” http://padresteve.wordpress.com/2009/09/14/the-ideological-war-how-hitlers-racial-theories-influenced-german-operations-in-poland-and-russia/ -- 41.19.207.84 ( talk) 17:13, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
1-At least until 1939 ha was enthusiastic supporter of Hitler and Nazism. Not just a follower of events,but he repeatedly supported Hitler and wrote several praises about him. 2-The article doesn't mention that Canaris was an anti-semite. Not in the magnitude seen in Nazis like Hitler or Himmler, but he did believe according to authors that write about him in "Jewish problem" and wanted Jews out of Germany. He actually developed a plan to expel them to Africa from Europe. 3-I believe there was also some planning of Canaris with Ukrainian nationalist organisations regarding actions against civilians. According to Pure soldiers or sinister legion: the Ukranian 14th Waffen-SS Division by Sol Littman "In advance of the 1939 campaign against Poland, Canaris ordered Ukrainian exiles smuggled into Poland to weaken Polish defenses by launching a terror campaign against the Jews and the Polish farmers"
This things ought to be mentioned and article correct with proper information. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 16:29, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
The article is too favourable towards Canaris. He was an anti-semite, a fascist and an early supporter of the Nazis. He only turned against Hitler because he knew Germany would lose another world war. ( 86.142.36.22 ( talk) 11:20, 18 March 2016 (UTC))
To any interested parties and/or those who I know to produce scholarly historical work -- @ K.e.coffman: and @ Kierzek: we need to clean this article up. Since I do have two biographies of Canaris, I have begun putting them to use. Your assistance in this process would be helpful. Certainly some of the information from the Abwehr article can be reworded and worked into this one. Also -- does the extensive list of awards and movie depictions displayed within: In popular culture even need to exist? It seems like excessive trivial work better suited for something other than an encyclopedic article. Just some thoughts as I request your assistance with this one.-- Obenritter ( talk) 05:37, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for all your work. I have only one comment: there is currently a little too much reliance on the book by Richard Bassett, a doubtful piece of popular history, not properly sourced. If anyone has the time, it would be sensible to replace material for which the only source is Bassett. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.62.186 ( talk) 07:01, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
What do editors think about the validity of this passage? The linked article says that the plot may or may not have been real.
References
I'm not well versed on the subject, but it appears this passage may need more scrutiny. The sourcing also appears to be a bit sketchy (Zenit News? :-) ) K.e.coffman ( talk) 01:07, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
Should it be mentioned that he was only 5'3"? ( 2A00:23C4:6388:7300:586F:ECD5:8A70:C658 ( talk) 12:26, 30 November 2016 (UTC))
In December 1940, Hitler again sent Canaris to Spain to conclude an agreement...
Canaris was friends with Polish spy Halina Szymańska, this verifiable channel to the British needs to be added. Content can be grabbed from her article page... and a Google search with Google Translate e.g: [3] Thanks, - Chumchum7 ( talk) 07:39, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
He was no saint. In today's political terms, and even in his days, he was a right-wing extremist. He did see some light later, being realistic about the outcome of the war, and ended up devoured by the very monster he and other millions of misguided German conservatives had created. That alone doesn't make him into a hero of democracy, while I do understand that Americans would have done everything for such a man to work with them after the war. After all, they recruited much worse scum in the name of anti-Communism.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Basil II ( talk • contribs) 00:00, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
I've removed the following text because it appears to have no direct relevance to Canaris, but am preserving it here in case someone can point out whether I'm mistaken.
===United Kingdom=== Arthur Owens, a Welsh nationalist, was briefly employed by MI6, the British Secret Intelligence Service, to spy on German shipyards in 1936. However, in 1938, he was so enticed by the attractive woman the Abwehr provided him that he switched his allegiance. Owens operated as an Abwehr agent under Nikolaus Ritter and went by the code name Johnny O'Brien. [1] page needed Owens later had second thoughts about his work with the Abwehr and he became a key agent in the " Twenty [XX] Committee", Britain's counter-espionage and deception operation. [2] Operating under the code name Snow, Owens provided MI5 the names of covert spies in Britain. [1] page needed MI5 gave the captured spies a choice of becoming double-agents or death by firing squad. [1] page needed Several former Abwehr agents chose to work for Britain and delivered vital information to the Allies, including details about troop movements and the keys to cracking German codes. [1] page needed
Over the course of the war, the Twenty Committee grew to about 120 double-agents. [2] However, in 1941, the Twenty Committee almost abandoned its double-agents when it found that Owens was also double-crossing MI5. However, when the Abwehr failed to take any demonstrable countermeasures, the Twenty Committee chose instead to provide its double-agents with disinformation to pass on to Germany. [2] After the war, it was discovered that Ritter had known that the cover of the agents in Britain had been compromised, but did not inform Canaris for fear of repercussions. [2]
- Chumchum7 ( talk) 12:19, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Wilhelm Canaris article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on January 1, 2021. |
I fixed up some grammar, but it was difficult to edit because this page needs a LOT more cited sources. It's hard to edit and improve the style and structure if the actual events are unclear.
Similarly a lot of this reads too well (although with imperfect grammar) and has too much detail, as if it is a translation of a foreign book or article. If so, the source should be cited.
I agree with the unattributed comments below: Canaris is fascinating and his story deserves a better article.
Troy88 08:04, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I think this entry needs a lot more work:
1) The quality of writing needs improving
2) There are too many claims made without citing sources or references
Canaris is a fascinating figure & this entry doesn't do him justice!
The "Family" section is repeting the same info at "Early life and WWI" section! Please try to fix it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.196.207.173 ( talk) 15:40, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Was this man the officer with the same name involved in Rosa murder? 201.51.44.148 00:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
He was not involved with the murder. He was a member of the courts martial of the people accussed of the murder. See http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/biografien/CanarisWilhelm/ TinyMark 05:31, 14 August 2007 (UTC) She was leading a Communist insurrection.That certainly deserves a death penalty. 190.241.63.32 ( talk) 14:27, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
I don't think you can use such certain language to describe Canaris' involvement with assassination plans - are these historical facts? There seems to be much more ambiguity here than the entry indicates.
--
Krupo
07:03, 1 May 2004 (UTC)
Canaris was executed by slow strangulation
I thought Canaris was hanged? Is supposed to imply that the hanging wasn't very well, uhm, executed? Fornadan (t) 14:45, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Trying not to get into the gruesome details, yes an efficient hanging is an acquired art form. The distance the body drops should be far enough so that the rope instantly breaks the victim's neck and not too far that the head is severed. If the body does not fall far enough then the victim dies slowly by strangulation. The Nazis deliberately preferred the latter method; often using piano wire, the victim was allowed to fall just a few inches or was hoisted-up off the ground by the neck, resulting in a very slow, painful and barbaric death. I don't know if there is any evidence of this method being used on Canaris but other members of the conspiracy to assassinate Hitler were strung up with piano wire on meat hooks with the event being filmed for Hitler's viewing pleasure by all accounts.
--
Psywar
06:42, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
"hanging" can either be by dropping the victim with the knot under one ear - thus breaking the neck due to lateral forces (most 'modern' hangings are done this way) - or by placing the rope around the neck of the victim and dragging them upwards - as done in lynchings - death is caused by slow, painful strangulation. I have heard that they were 'half-hung' with piano wire and filmed, for the Fuher's enjoyment. Is this true? I can't find any reliable sorces that can confirm this.
Why has Canaris been put under the category of "Male Strippers"?
Is there something we don't know about him? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.25.82.46 ( talk) 00:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC).
The IP above 203.25.82.46 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) placed the category of 'Male Strippers into the article. I have removed the vandalism and placed a warning on their userpage. Cynrin 01:02, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
"While preparing to surrender in Camberland Bay, the Dresden was attacked and finally sunk by the British in a largely disputed act withstanding the Geneva Convention."
The Canaris photograph is printed incorrectly. The ribbon bar on his uniform should be on the left side of his uniform, not the right as seen in the photo. ```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vlupiano ( talk • contribs) 18:08, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Eye of the Needle
Canaris is mentioned multiple times in retrospective and as the handler of abwehr agent "Die Nadel"s in Ken Follet's fiction novel, The Eye of the Needle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.31.184.166 ( talk) 20:15, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
NCIS
Is this likely to be the same Canaris mentioned by 'Ducky' in the NCIS episode 'The Immortals' - S01E04? 125.237.96.178 ( talk) 07:44, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Canaris may by a Righteous among the Nations http://derstandard.at/fs/1246543875069/Ultraorthodoxe-fordern-Ehrung-des-deutschen-Admirals-Canaris —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.216.89.205 ( talk) 09:01, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
The article creates an impression that the head on Nazi Germany's military intelligence performed primarily anti-German activity during WWII. This contradicts to the fact that Abwehr was one of the most efficient intelligences during WWII. It is quite necessary to tell more about Canaris' primary activity.-- Paul Siebert ( talk) 15:53, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
He was not anti-German but exactly the opposite!! He was a German patriot as well as he was a convinced human rights activist. For both reasons he could only fight for a better and human Germany - for such a Germany, he liked. He saw, that Hitler's victories bolstered the regime more and more and wished a situation that made it possible to sweep the regime away. He also saw the evil of Stalinism. I think, he wished both totalitarian inhuman regimes to hell.
P.S.: No light without shadow. Canaris anticommunism in the time after WW1 was often a source of controversal discussions and also on this discussion page. (s. chapter 'Rosa Luxemburg' above.)
-- Henrig ( talk) 15:55, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Some historians believe that Wilhelm Canaris was not mistaken about his relationship with the Greek Admiral (who died only 10 years before Wilhelm was born), and that this 'official' family history was politically motivated, due to Nazi Germany's alliance with Fascist Italy and its hostility with Greece, which coincides suspiciously with the time of the Greco-Italian War of 1940-1941. This should be worked into the article. Otherwise we my be enabling Nazi lies to endure.-- Nikoz78 ( talk) 15:42, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
-- Euzen ( talk) 11:03, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
Why isn't this mentioned in the article? "...Admiral Wilhelm Canaris provides an example as he “had grown up in the atmosphere of “moderate” anti-Semitism prevailing in the Ruhr middle class and in the Navy believed in the existence of a “Jewish problem”” and would “suggest during 1935-1936 that German Jews should be identified by a Star of David as special category citizens….” http://padresteve.wordpress.com/2009/09/14/the-ideological-war-how-hitlers-racial-theories-influenced-german-operations-in-poland-and-russia/ -- 41.19.207.84 ( talk) 17:13, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
1-At least until 1939 ha was enthusiastic supporter of Hitler and Nazism. Not just a follower of events,but he repeatedly supported Hitler and wrote several praises about him. 2-The article doesn't mention that Canaris was an anti-semite. Not in the magnitude seen in Nazis like Hitler or Himmler, but he did believe according to authors that write about him in "Jewish problem" and wanted Jews out of Germany. He actually developed a plan to expel them to Africa from Europe. 3-I believe there was also some planning of Canaris with Ukrainian nationalist organisations regarding actions against civilians. According to Pure soldiers or sinister legion: the Ukranian 14th Waffen-SS Division by Sol Littman "In advance of the 1939 campaign against Poland, Canaris ordered Ukrainian exiles smuggled into Poland to weaken Polish defenses by launching a terror campaign against the Jews and the Polish farmers"
This things ought to be mentioned and article correct with proper information. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 16:29, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
The article is too favourable towards Canaris. He was an anti-semite, a fascist and an early supporter of the Nazis. He only turned against Hitler because he knew Germany would lose another world war. ( 86.142.36.22 ( talk) 11:20, 18 March 2016 (UTC))
To any interested parties and/or those who I know to produce scholarly historical work -- @ K.e.coffman: and @ Kierzek: we need to clean this article up. Since I do have two biographies of Canaris, I have begun putting them to use. Your assistance in this process would be helpful. Certainly some of the information from the Abwehr article can be reworded and worked into this one. Also -- does the extensive list of awards and movie depictions displayed within: In popular culture even need to exist? It seems like excessive trivial work better suited for something other than an encyclopedic article. Just some thoughts as I request your assistance with this one.-- Obenritter ( talk) 05:37, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for all your work. I have only one comment: there is currently a little too much reliance on the book by Richard Bassett, a doubtful piece of popular history, not properly sourced. If anyone has the time, it would be sensible to replace material for which the only source is Bassett. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.62.186 ( talk) 07:01, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
What do editors think about the validity of this passage? The linked article says that the plot may or may not have been real.
References
I'm not well versed on the subject, but it appears this passage may need more scrutiny. The sourcing also appears to be a bit sketchy (Zenit News? :-) ) K.e.coffman ( talk) 01:07, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
Should it be mentioned that he was only 5'3"? ( 2A00:23C4:6388:7300:586F:ECD5:8A70:C658 ( talk) 12:26, 30 November 2016 (UTC))
In December 1940, Hitler again sent Canaris to Spain to conclude an agreement...
Canaris was friends with Polish spy Halina Szymańska, this verifiable channel to the British needs to be added. Content can be grabbed from her article page... and a Google search with Google Translate e.g: [3] Thanks, - Chumchum7 ( talk) 07:39, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
He was no saint. In today's political terms, and even in his days, he was a right-wing extremist. He did see some light later, being realistic about the outcome of the war, and ended up devoured by the very monster he and other millions of misguided German conservatives had created. That alone doesn't make him into a hero of democracy, while I do understand that Americans would have done everything for such a man to work with them after the war. After all, they recruited much worse scum in the name of anti-Communism.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Basil II ( talk • contribs) 00:00, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
I've removed the following text because it appears to have no direct relevance to Canaris, but am preserving it here in case someone can point out whether I'm mistaken.
===United Kingdom=== Arthur Owens, a Welsh nationalist, was briefly employed by MI6, the British Secret Intelligence Service, to spy on German shipyards in 1936. However, in 1938, he was so enticed by the attractive woman the Abwehr provided him that he switched his allegiance. Owens operated as an Abwehr agent under Nikolaus Ritter and went by the code name Johnny O'Brien. [1] page needed Owens later had second thoughts about his work with the Abwehr and he became a key agent in the " Twenty [XX] Committee", Britain's counter-espionage and deception operation. [2] Operating under the code name Snow, Owens provided MI5 the names of covert spies in Britain. [1] page needed MI5 gave the captured spies a choice of becoming double-agents or death by firing squad. [1] page needed Several former Abwehr agents chose to work for Britain and delivered vital information to the Allies, including details about troop movements and the keys to cracking German codes. [1] page needed
Over the course of the war, the Twenty Committee grew to about 120 double-agents. [2] However, in 1941, the Twenty Committee almost abandoned its double-agents when it found that Owens was also double-crossing MI5. However, when the Abwehr failed to take any demonstrable countermeasures, the Twenty Committee chose instead to provide its double-agents with disinformation to pass on to Germany. [2] After the war, it was discovered that Ritter had known that the cover of the agents in Britain had been compromised, but did not inform Canaris for fear of repercussions. [2]
- Chumchum7 ( talk) 12:19, 23 December 2019 (UTC)