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Has anyone considered that the "Green Men" prevalent in English mediaeval church carvings migh be representations of woodwoses?-- APRCooper 19:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks -- APRCooper 19:10, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
A British example can be found on the coat-of-arms used as the pub sign for the Woodhouse Arms in Corby Glen, Lincolnshire.
This pub subsequently had its name changed (to "The Coachman"). SiGarb | Talk 22:23, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Johnbod 03:06, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
is there a case for a the alternative spellings to be listed so that all find there way to Woodwose. My spelling (and used quite a bit in Suffolk) (as in Haverhill Wodewose) is Wodewose and others are listed. I originally searched under wodewose and found nothing. -- Edmund Patrick 18:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Some interesting material has been gathered here, however I feel the title does not match the content. Woodwose is of Anglo-Saxon origin and yet the name is applied as if being somehow generic for similar traditions across western Europe. It is not. Even the article itself, right at the end, says that folklorists use the term "wild men". Woodwose is never used in books and articles on the Celtic equivalents in Wales and Scotland, for instance. This should either be an article about the woodwose in English tradition (bring in some comparative treatment if you like) or it should be renamed. As "wild men" can be used in other contexts, as noted here, I'd suggest something like " Medieval wild men" which could include Myrddin Wyllt ("Wild Merlin") from Wales, Suibne Geilt from Ireland, etc. This is very misleading as it stands, which is a pity as some good work has been done here. Any feelings or suggestions on this? Enaidmawr ( talk) 00:10, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
I removed this from the article, as it provides no sources for some pretty speculative statements. (I've substituted a more substantiated, but still flawed version):
A few further notes: the Sicilian tribe is named the Sicani, not the Sicarii, here on Wikipedia. This may be an onomastic issue, but the article makes no connection between the Sicani and the Gauls, and this source lists them as "unclassified" due to lack of evidence on their language. It does sound like an interesting theory, and I almost would have been content to leave it in, but for the issues I just named. If it goes back in all that will have to be sourced to some reliable publication; the only one given (now located here) does not mention dusi and gives a totally diffent reason for rendering the phrase "beasts of the islands".-- Cúchullain t/ c 20:31, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
I have moved the page from the previous title, woodwose, to the current one, wild man. I delineated the reasons for this some months ago up above. Basically, the sources, including Bernheimer's standard text, just do not use the term woodwose, except occasionally in passing. Johnbod has voiced dissention, arguing that "woodwose" is the correct English term, but that is just not born out by the sources. In fact, in his book on medieval wild men Bernheimer explicitly states that wild man is the common term, and uses wodewose and woodwose only in passing, or to indicate that this was the Middle English term. Yamamoto's book, which deals with the wild man in a specificically English context, does not even use "woodwose" and "wodewose" only appears in a quote from someone else. If John or anyone else can provide sources indicating that "woodwose" is in fact the common name, please provide it. Otherwise it seems clear that "wild man" is by a long stretch the most common, and the one we must use, per WP:COMMON. To tell the truth I'm not sure how the page was ever at "woodwose", but I guess it's just one of those things.
To help clarify the matter I created the section on the various alternate and local names for the creature. I moved the English variants to there from the lede. I think the section does a pretty good job, but of course any improvements are welcome and desired.-- Cúchullain t/ c 13:30, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
"Woodwose" is a term that was revived by Tolkien. I think Tom Shippey has written an essay about this. Nobody (except for Middle English scholars) knew what a "woodwose" was between, say, 1600 and 1960. Tolkien edited the Green Knight in 1925 and liked the word, using it in his popular works. After he became famous in the 1960s, people became interested in this sort of thing, and the word "woodwose" was revived sufficiently to get some 70,000 google hits today.
I would like to add a much more detailed discussion of the Middle English word (begun under "Terminology"), and the obvious solution will be to split off the Middle English part of this article to a separate WP:SS sub-page at Woodwose) -- dab (𒁳) 10:49, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
"Augustine reports the Gaulish name of "Dusii" in City of God XV, ch. 23: Et quosdam daemones, quos Dusios Galli nuncupant, adsidue hanc immunditiam et efficere, plures talesque adseuerant, ut hoc negare impudentiae uideatur — "Certain demons, whom the Gauls call Dusii, consistently and successfully attempt this indecency [intercourse with women]. This is asserted by many witnesses of such character that it would be an impertinence to deny it," and perhaps the early 7th century encyclopedist Isidore of Seville has picked up Augustine's reference for his Etymologies book viii" ... What does this have to do with Wild Men/woodwoses? This pretty clearly refers to satyrs, with perhaps a little admixture from incubus myths, and seems to have no connection with the medieval wild man legend which AFAIK did not even exist in Augustine of Hippo's time.
The European woodwose legend seems quite clearly to refer to wild humans and not to another hominid type like Bigfoot, Yeti, etc. stories. So why is it under Cryptozoology? Because some cryptozoological authors have made that (almost certainly specious) link? Vultur ( talk) 01:22, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
well, what is the "most interesting" aspect of this topic is of course a subjective question. I agree that the material on how this "evolved out of classical and ancient concepts and figures" is valid, but it is also blown completely out of proportion, taking up most of the article. While the actual topic, viz. a discussion of the medieval figure in art, in heraldry and in written sources, is completely marginalized. In this sense, this page as it stands is to a large degree a " WP:COATRACK" article: somebody was interested in the "origins in antiquity" question and went off on a tangent, never to return to the actual topic. -- dab (𒁳) 09:12, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
I note that Der Busant and an image of it are used in German and Dutch versions of the article. Perhaps a mention here? — Crisco 1492 ( talk) 01:18, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
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Can anyone find a reliable source claiming that wild men originated from Hunter gatherers? Otherwise it looks like unreliable sources, speculation, and possibly synthesis. For instance: how can "fossil evidence" suggest that hunter gatherers lived in Europe 2000 years ago? Things don't fossil in that time, and if they did, there's no way fossils would tell us whether they came from hunter-gatherers. If no one can substantiate these claims, they should be removed.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 00:38, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
It could very well be a collective memory of the Neanderthals and others. It is not so long ago that this kind of atavistic memory could persist. Certainly we know that the Germanic gods come from the proto-German gods, and there are indications of even earlier ones.
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
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Has anyone considered that the "Green Men" prevalent in English mediaeval church carvings migh be representations of woodwoses?-- APRCooper 19:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks -- APRCooper 19:10, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
A British example can be found on the coat-of-arms used as the pub sign for the Woodhouse Arms in Corby Glen, Lincolnshire.
This pub subsequently had its name changed (to "The Coachman"). SiGarb | Talk 22:23, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Johnbod 03:06, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
is there a case for a the alternative spellings to be listed so that all find there way to Woodwose. My spelling (and used quite a bit in Suffolk) (as in Haverhill Wodewose) is Wodewose and others are listed. I originally searched under wodewose and found nothing. -- Edmund Patrick 18:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Some interesting material has been gathered here, however I feel the title does not match the content. Woodwose is of Anglo-Saxon origin and yet the name is applied as if being somehow generic for similar traditions across western Europe. It is not. Even the article itself, right at the end, says that folklorists use the term "wild men". Woodwose is never used in books and articles on the Celtic equivalents in Wales and Scotland, for instance. This should either be an article about the woodwose in English tradition (bring in some comparative treatment if you like) or it should be renamed. As "wild men" can be used in other contexts, as noted here, I'd suggest something like " Medieval wild men" which could include Myrddin Wyllt ("Wild Merlin") from Wales, Suibne Geilt from Ireland, etc. This is very misleading as it stands, which is a pity as some good work has been done here. Any feelings or suggestions on this? Enaidmawr ( talk) 00:10, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
I removed this from the article, as it provides no sources for some pretty speculative statements. (I've substituted a more substantiated, but still flawed version):
A few further notes: the Sicilian tribe is named the Sicani, not the Sicarii, here on Wikipedia. This may be an onomastic issue, but the article makes no connection between the Sicani and the Gauls, and this source lists them as "unclassified" due to lack of evidence on their language. It does sound like an interesting theory, and I almost would have been content to leave it in, but for the issues I just named. If it goes back in all that will have to be sourced to some reliable publication; the only one given (now located here) does not mention dusi and gives a totally diffent reason for rendering the phrase "beasts of the islands".-- Cúchullain t/ c 20:31, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
I have moved the page from the previous title, woodwose, to the current one, wild man. I delineated the reasons for this some months ago up above. Basically, the sources, including Bernheimer's standard text, just do not use the term woodwose, except occasionally in passing. Johnbod has voiced dissention, arguing that "woodwose" is the correct English term, but that is just not born out by the sources. In fact, in his book on medieval wild men Bernheimer explicitly states that wild man is the common term, and uses wodewose and woodwose only in passing, or to indicate that this was the Middle English term. Yamamoto's book, which deals with the wild man in a specificically English context, does not even use "woodwose" and "wodewose" only appears in a quote from someone else. If John or anyone else can provide sources indicating that "woodwose" is in fact the common name, please provide it. Otherwise it seems clear that "wild man" is by a long stretch the most common, and the one we must use, per WP:COMMON. To tell the truth I'm not sure how the page was ever at "woodwose", but I guess it's just one of those things.
To help clarify the matter I created the section on the various alternate and local names for the creature. I moved the English variants to there from the lede. I think the section does a pretty good job, but of course any improvements are welcome and desired.-- Cúchullain t/ c 13:30, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
"Woodwose" is a term that was revived by Tolkien. I think Tom Shippey has written an essay about this. Nobody (except for Middle English scholars) knew what a "woodwose" was between, say, 1600 and 1960. Tolkien edited the Green Knight in 1925 and liked the word, using it in his popular works. After he became famous in the 1960s, people became interested in this sort of thing, and the word "woodwose" was revived sufficiently to get some 70,000 google hits today.
I would like to add a much more detailed discussion of the Middle English word (begun under "Terminology"), and the obvious solution will be to split off the Middle English part of this article to a separate WP:SS sub-page at Woodwose) -- dab (𒁳) 10:49, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
"Augustine reports the Gaulish name of "Dusii" in City of God XV, ch. 23: Et quosdam daemones, quos Dusios Galli nuncupant, adsidue hanc immunditiam et efficere, plures talesque adseuerant, ut hoc negare impudentiae uideatur — "Certain demons, whom the Gauls call Dusii, consistently and successfully attempt this indecency [intercourse with women]. This is asserted by many witnesses of such character that it would be an impertinence to deny it," and perhaps the early 7th century encyclopedist Isidore of Seville has picked up Augustine's reference for his Etymologies book viii" ... What does this have to do with Wild Men/woodwoses? This pretty clearly refers to satyrs, with perhaps a little admixture from incubus myths, and seems to have no connection with the medieval wild man legend which AFAIK did not even exist in Augustine of Hippo's time.
The European woodwose legend seems quite clearly to refer to wild humans and not to another hominid type like Bigfoot, Yeti, etc. stories. So why is it under Cryptozoology? Because some cryptozoological authors have made that (almost certainly specious) link? Vultur ( talk) 01:22, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
well, what is the "most interesting" aspect of this topic is of course a subjective question. I agree that the material on how this "evolved out of classical and ancient concepts and figures" is valid, but it is also blown completely out of proportion, taking up most of the article. While the actual topic, viz. a discussion of the medieval figure in art, in heraldry and in written sources, is completely marginalized. In this sense, this page as it stands is to a large degree a " WP:COATRACK" article: somebody was interested in the "origins in antiquity" question and went off on a tangent, never to return to the actual topic. -- dab (𒁳) 09:12, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
I note that Der Busant and an image of it are used in German and Dutch versions of the article. Perhaps a mention here? — Crisco 1492 ( talk) 01:18, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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Can anyone find a reliable source claiming that wild men originated from Hunter gatherers? Otherwise it looks like unreliable sources, speculation, and possibly synthesis. For instance: how can "fossil evidence" suggest that hunter gatherers lived in Europe 2000 years ago? Things don't fossil in that time, and if they did, there's no way fossils would tell us whether they came from hunter-gatherers. If no one can substantiate these claims, they should be removed.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 00:38, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
It could very well be a collective memory of the Neanderthals and others. It is not so long ago that this kind of atavistic memory could persist. Certainly we know that the Germanic gods come from the proto-German gods, and there are indications of even earlier ones.