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Critics have commented that the theoretical framework of “white privilege’ can be too easily deployed rhetorically to dismiss arguments of persons based on features of their personhood— ad hominem arguments. [1] Writing in the Harvard Political Review, Nishin Nathwani [2] argued: “The rhetoric of privilege has become a means to divert attention away from the substance of arguments to their immediate origin.” [3]. Taonga Leslie argued: “A little awareness of the privileges we are allotted by society is a good thing. It helps us to empathize with others who have not shared our advantages. However, when left uncontrolled, awareness of our privilege can quickly transform into a new form of prejudice. Instead of using privilege as a tool to understand different perspectives, too often we use it to silence and shame our opponents into submission.” [4] They note that discussion on privilege has become a powerful tool to silence certain voices entirely. [5] and those who question it are delegitimized as backwards, privileged bigots whose opinions should be at best ignored and at worst banned. [6]
Moreover they claim that white privilege has been deployed as an insult, encapsulated in the popular use of the term “Check your privilege”. Writing in Time Magazine, Tal Fortgang stated: “There is a phrase that floats around college campuses, Princeton being no exception, that threatens to strike down opinions without regard for their merits, but rather solely on the basis of the person that voiced them. “Check your privilege,” the saying goes, and I have been reprimanded by it several times this year.” [7]
In her book, The Perils of ‘Privilege’: Why Injustice Can’t Be Solved by Accusing Others of Advantage, Phoebe Maltz Bovy argues privilege has become “the word and concept of our age . . . our era’s number one insult.” whose “…role as an aide in online bullying exceeds its utility as a theoretical framework.” [8]
References
Please leave comments on this new section below. If you have issues with the RS please explain why. Thanks Keith Johnston ( talk) 11:32, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
Can you make specific objections to this criticism? Keith Johnston ( talk) 23:33, 19 August 2017 (UTC) I will give this another day and unless there are objections then I will re-post this section Keith Johnston ( talk) 13:16, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
In the absence of further commentary I will shorten the proposed section, contextualised the undergraduate publication and removed the Federalist source since we can debate if its RS later. Keith Johnston ( talk) 12:14, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
A balanced presentation of this rhetorical issue takes up one paragraph at Privilege (social inequality). Fortgang's critique appears with McIntosh's response. That's about all that's WP:DUE, in my opinion. Pulling four or five college newspaper editorials into a wall of text, however, gives WP:UNDUE weight to this concern. Indeed, some of the critics aren't critiquing the concept at all, but "its rhetorical use." We don't have a section in Racism about how being called a racist makes some people feel bad, and how some people are called racists unfairly, blah blah. Now if Wikipedia were to create a balanced article on the rhetoric of privilege, say by creating a Check your privilege page (currently redirects to Privilege (social inequality)), a bit more of these rhetorical use concerns might be germane. But still, upgrade your sources and create a dialogue of multiple viewpoints that is representative of the Reliable Sources that address the issue.-- Carwil ( talk) 15:02, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
For the record here are links to further RS critical of white privilege:
The Atlantic: "if a white person is constantly attesting to their privilege, constantly attesting that they still have things to learn, and not ever specifying what more it is that they have to learn, the idea that is somehow constructive, I suggest that be reexamined." https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/a-columbia-professors-critique-of-campus-politics/532335/
The Walrus https://thewalrus.ca/why-checking-your-privilege-doesnt-work/ PHOEBE MALTZ BOVY "This implicit, but implausible, step after the awareness epiphany is, at its essence, my issue with “privilege.” Constantly reminding everyone of where they fall . . . why would such candor lead to empathy? Why wouldn’t a society where systemic injustices are front and center in everyone’s mind at all times only serve to make interactions between men and women, blacks and whites, rich and poor, that much more fraught, inhibiting the development of everyday social and professional bonds?"
Parul Sehgal, New York Times Magazine: “the shine has come off this hardy, once-helpful word. It looks a little worn, a bit blunted, as if it has been taken to too many fights.” https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/19/magazine/how-privilege-became-a-provocation.html
Berkeley senior Efe Atli offers the following damning critique, in a Daily Cal op-ed (“Checking privilege serves to reinforce it”) from January 2016: The number[s] don’t lie. Three decades of checking privilege directly correlate with an astronomical rise in income inequality. The more inequality we have, the more privilege gets checked by more privileged people, and the more the privileged feel pleasure (and power) in being aware of their privilege and so, grow in power. http://www.dailycal.org/2016/01/22/checking-privilege-serves-to-reinforce-it/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfH8IG7Awk0 Identity politics and the Marxist lie of white privilege — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keith Johnston ( talk • contribs) 11:06, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
Quilette magazine Spencer Case: A close look at the notion of white privilege casts doubt on whether the racial disparities that currently exist within the U.S. constitute any such thing. http://quillette.com/2017/06/24/skepticism-white-privilege/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keith Johnston ( talk • contribs) 11:50, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
https://www.theatlantic.com/personal/archive/2012/04/white-privilege/256478/ In short--you need to know that I was privileged. I can run you all kinds of stats on the racial wealth gap and will gladly discuss its origins. But you can't really buy two parents like I had. White Privilege by TA-NEHISI COATES — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keith Johnston ( talk • contribs) 20:31, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
DAVID FRENCH, National Review. Discussion of “white privilege” has gone from interesting and thoughtful to stupid and malicious at the speed of social justice. There is a fascinating debate to be had about the nature of “privilege” in America — including who has real privilege and how it shapes our nation — but we’re definitely not having it. Instead, we get presumptions, paranoia, shout-downs, and power plays. There’s no intent to persuade, only bully and shame. Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/444191/racial-poison-white-privilege Keith Johnston ( talk) 23:09, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
First I have no dog in the fight. I'm Hawaiian with its unique multi-ethnic population and low levels of overt racism IMO. I'm hapa or mixed although I appear more Caucasian than anything else. I'm English, Scandinavian, Hispanic, Black or African, and Jewish. It's common here to ask about ancestry on introduction and never considered racist to do so.
So here's some observations.
1. Some appear entrenched in their opinions. 2. There is no good peer reviewed scientific studies to shed light on the theory I noticed. 3. Many are using opinion pieces not backed by sound studies as reference material. They are opinion pieces. Being published in newspapers. magazines, etc means little. Sound peer reviewed studies published in reputable journals is what should be sought. 4. White privilege seems ill defined. You can't debate well whats defined poorly and that appears based on opinion often biased. 5. Using the idea 'most' feel this way is an unscientific reason to shut down debate because numbers determine 'facts'. 6. Repeatedly deleting talk comments is unacceptable as is demonizing fellow editors. 7. The concept is a theory and this needs to be emphasized.
Suggestions:
1. I'd freeze the article for now. 2. I would not delete it as the topic exists. 3. The article needs to be rewritten from a neutral standpoint with input from all perspectives. All need to remember Wiki is neutral and this is theory. 4. The use of personal opinions is fine as long as that fact is noted. If there are no hard studies on the topic this should be noted in the intro. 5. A timeline or history of apparent/perceived advantages of being white is fine as most, even without hard studies, agree this is true. I would balance this with apparent erosion of benefits and inclusion of non-whites. I think this will be difficult to do esp staying neutral but it can be done.
That's a start and all can go from there. I'd encourage those with differing views to bend over backward to make this work.
Hope this helps and of course no one needs to follow it. Keep in mind one or a few can destroy debate and kill the article.
Good luck Jobberone ( talk) 11:03, 6 December 2017 (UTC)Jobberone
It should be clearly note that "White Privilege" is a deceptive propaganda term with a conspiracy theory as a subtext. -- 105.11.103.82 ( talk) 14:37, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
I have added critique. Please discuss any issues with these additions here. Ideally please address any issues you have with the RS. Keith Johnston ( talk) 20:45, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
Malik Shabazz, thanks, could you explain your objections to the RS? Removing well sourced RS without explanation is not acceptable editing practice. Keith Johnston ( talk) 10:15, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
@Grayfell thanks
That is incorrect, you have not explained objections to these RS. These (listed below) include articles published by The Atlantic, Time Magazine, The Washington Post and The New York Times. These are generally considered excellent RS, so I am unclear as to the nature of your objections.
https://www.theatlantic.com/personal/archive/2012/04/white-privilege/256478/
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/19/magazine/how-privilege-became-a-provocation.html
The reason I am asking you to explain is that you support deleting the content. To do this you must give reasons. I look forward to reading your specific objections to this RS. Keith Johnston ( talk) 21:57, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
I would reference these paragraphs in the article to substantiate my summary: "my identity isn't founded on the losing end of "white privilege." I understand the use of that term for social scientists and perhaps literature critics. But I generally find it most powerful and most illuminating when linked to an actual specific privilege--not fearing sexual violence, not weighing one's death against the labor of birthing, living in a neighborhood bracketed off by housing covenants, not having to compete for certain jobs etc. In its most general invocation, I'm often repulsed because I think these sorts of questions often break down in the face of actual individuals."
The world of the individual--and often the black individual--is the space where I write. It is true that I can tell you how racism--indirectly and directly--affected my life. But you should also know that I truly believe that I had the best pair of parents in the world, that I had six brothers and sisters (sometimes more) who took care of me. That my mother taught me to read when I was four, that my father put me to work when I was six. That my brother Malik taught me D&D when I was seven, that my brother Big Bill fed me hip-hop from the time I was eight till this very day. That my house was filled with books which I was given the privilege to dive in and out of. That my father published and printed books which gave a sense of Do For Self.
...In short--you need to know that I was privileged. I can run you all kinds of stats on the racial wealth gap and will gladly discuss its origins. But you can't really buy two parents like I had. Money can buy experience and exposure--but it can't make you want those things. It can't make your parents curious about the world. It can't make them moral, compassionate and caring. It can't make them love their children. As I have moved on up, in that old Jeffersonian sense, I have seen families who allegedly were more privileged. But ultimately I find merit in who they are as humans. I am unconvinced that money trumps all of their flaws"
Feel free to suggest an alternative summary. Keith Johnston ( talk) 08:18, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
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In first sentence, add adjective "controversial" before the word "term" with link to: /info/en/?search=Controversy — Preceding unsigned comment added by LeJuriste ( talk • contribs)
This is an excellent idea. The concept and the way it is taught is controversial, largely supported by leftists and left leaning liberals, critiqued by centrists and rejected by conservatives. This link to a reliable source, Pew research, backs up the idea that the concept is controversial. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/09/28/views-about-whether-whites-benefit-from-societal-advantages-split-sharply-along-racial-and-partisan-lines/ Keith Johnston ( talk) 10:30, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
{{
edit semi-protected}}
template.
~ Winged Blades
Godric
06:40, 19 April 2018 (UTC)I have found some further critique which is helpful if someone thinks they are suitable to balance the almost entirely uncritical propaganda that is the current article.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/check-your-white-privilege_us_5a130e2de4b010527d677f08 But a significant question facing progressives today is whether the use of the term “white privilege” helps or hurts building the kind of solidarity needed to promote racial justice and reverse runaway inequality.
The danger is that “white privilege” still comes across as an accusation, whether it is meant that way or not. It suggests that you as a white person are harboring racism deep within you, a kind of original sin. Because of your white skin, the power structures consider you normal. You get the benefit of the doubt while others do not because you are born into society’s white in-crowd.
This kind of dialogue can also generate defensiveness.
http://quillette.com/2018/01/27/walking-tightrope-chaos-order-interview-jordan-b-peterson/ One of the ways that left-wing ideologues seem to be winning is through Wikipedia. If you go to the “White Privilege” page you will find that it’s effectively postmodern propaganda…
It is a very intelligent point of entry for someone who is activist-minded. Why the hell wouldn’t you go on Wikipedia and gerrymander the contents? You have an ethical duty to do so.
And one of the ways this is entrenched is that the sources that underpin these misleading Wikipedia pages are professors who are peer reviewed…
Ha! Peer-reviewed…that’s such a lie! First of all, 80 percent of humanities papers are not cited once. That’s fraud! That’s what that is, right. 80 percent, that’s a very bad number. “Peer-reviewed” means you have conjured up a specialty journal that only you and your friends publish in. You each review your own publications. Then you go the library, and say “You have to buy this.” And the library says, “Because you said so we have to buy it, because that’s our mandate.” And the publisher says, “Oh good because we will sell it to the libraries at a price so inflated that the mere fact that no-one ever reads it is irrelevant.” Right, and so then the libraries buy it. And that’s your “peer-review”.
http://quillette.com/2018/01/23/privilege-checking-privilege-checkers/ Many of today’s privilege-conscious view white people and the structures of Western societies as irredeemably evil. To them, Western democratic nations are bastions of racist and sexist oppression operating under the guise of “progress.” To question the attitudes and practices of other cultures is racist, but to condemn Western society is a moral obligation.
Keith Johnston ( talk) 17:19, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
This source is Quillette (which is an RS), and the author is a professor of psychology. http://quillette.com/2018/01/27/walking-tightrope-chaos-order-interview-jordan-b-peterson/ Happy to add the quote marks to help you understand it:
"If you go to the “White Privilege” page you will find that it’s effectively postmodern propaganda…It is a very intelligent point of entry for someone who is activist-minded. Why the hell wouldn’t you go on Wikipedia and gerrymander the contents? You have an ethical duty to do so.
And one of the ways this is entrenched is that the sources that underpin these misleading Wikipedia pages are professors who are peer reviewed…
Peer-reviewed…that’s such a lie! First of all, 80 percent of humanities papers are not cited once. That’s fraud! That’s what that is, right. 80 percent, that’s a very bad number. “Peer-reviewed” means you have conjured up a specialty journal that only you and your friends publish in. You each review your own publications. Then you go the library, and say “You have to buy this.” And the library says, “Because you said so we have to buy it, because that’s our mandate.” And the publisher says, “Oh good because we will sell it to the libraries at a price so inflated that the mere fact that no-one ever reads it is irrelevant.” Right, and so then the libraries buy it. And that’s your “peer-review”."
I predict you will be unable to question the legitimacy of the RS, the source or the author. The reason for this is because you cannot. Keith Johnston ( talk) 14:29, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
politically-driven pseudo-science" is widely used to illustrate a concept and thus is appropriate in an article about that concept. Similarly with Crosley-Corcoran's viral article. Critiques from Arnesan and other scholars are fine. But that's not what you offered in this post.
"...the answer to that that is, partly!"He's saying that even though white privilege exists, and it a 'polluting' factor, we should ignore it because he doesn't like the alternatives. Since it's such a trivial, passing point in a longer interview, the effort that would be needed to summarize this neutrally would be a waste of time. Trying to warp this discussion into another argument over whether or not Peterson is, in fact, a real psychologist is totally, comically missing the point. The copy/pasted quote is cherry-picking to highlight a tangential mention that happens to include relevant words. There isn't enough to work with here, and including the quote as-is would be totally, unacceptably undue and non-neutral.
"Conor Friedersdorf objects to privilege theory by arguing that it replaces color-blindness with a “hyper-emphasis on everyone's racial or ethnic background, including artificially constructed majoritarian whiteness” and that such practice might be counter-productive noting: “nothing in U.S. history leads me to believe that encouraging people to regard whiteness as the core of their identity will end well."
"Scholarly writings are not necessarily research articles presenting data. This "politically-driven pseudo-science" is widely used to illustrate a concept and thus is appropriate in an article about that concept. Similarly with Crosley-Corcoran's viral article."
Not again!? Not the same over!? I haven't tried reading the article in detail, let alone reading the critique or criticism that User:Keith Johnston is continuing to try to provide, but I know that about six weeks ago the discussion was going nowhere, and that consensus was against him, and he was advised to let the matter drop. I see that there was a Request for Comments in August. Is it being accepted as consensus? If not, is another RFC planned to take its place (a procedure which can itself be tendentious, but is not just a filibuster in the way that continued discussion of a decided issue is? I see that you have already been given formal notice that ArbCom discretionary sanctions are available for disruptive editing; I am not sure whether you understood. I had previously said that, if stating the same point twice doesn't persuade multiple editors, simply finding another forum so as to state it five times is not likely to change minds. It appears that consensus is against you. Just drop it, or you will learn how discretionary sanctions work. Is that clear finally? Robert McClenon ( talk) 00:59, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
At the suggestion of a third party I originally referenced this proposed change on Grayfell talk page. I thought this might be useful although I was concerned that it was not the best way to reach consensus since, even if we agreed, other editors may not. In any event we did not agree and I have included that discussion here for completeness and so I can reply to the arguments raised in due course.
I have proposed the following and look forward to your comments on the talk page.
"Conor Friedersdorf objects to privilege theory by arguing that it replaces color-blindness with a “hyper-emphasis on everyone's racial or ethnic background, including artificially constructed majoritarian whiteness” and that such practice might be counter-productive noting: “nothing in U.S. history leads me to believe that encouraging people to regard whiteness as the core of their identity will end well." https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/02/the-limits-of-talking-about-privilege/386021/ Keith Johnston (talk) 10:36, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
(Copied by) Keith Johnston ( talk) 14:56, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, I was responding to your sensible suggestion that any future proposals should include actionable changes.
You say Friedersdorf is a ‘random journalist’. Rather, he is staff writer at the Atlantic, a recognised reliable source. The purpose of including reference to the Friedersdorf piece is to include important argumentation not currently contained in the White Privilege page. This is the argument that a focus on the race of the person may be ultimately counter-productive since it replaces the theory of color-blindness with a hyperemphasis on group identity which in turn leads to doomed ‘Balkanisation’. Here is Friedersdorf:
“Simplistic colorblindness is unequipped to grasp their legacy. But is the best way forward hyper-emphasis on everyone's racial or ethnic background, including artificially constructed majoritarian whiteness, on the bet that every identity group will cease succumbing to tribalism? Or should we strive for a future where all individuals can embrace or ignore their racial identity per their preference? Perhaps neither approach can ever fully succeed. But I'd argue that the former approach poses a much greater risk of balkanization, and is doomed insofar as "separate-but-equal" never actually works.”
Perhaps you are correct that the quotes could be improved and I’d be happy to have that debate. There is no need to quote extensively to make the point, which is an argument not held exclusively by Friedersdorf. I might suggest amending it to this actionable change:
] Keith Johnston ( talk) 07:26, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
"a future where all individuals can embrace or ignore their racial identity per their preference?"
And I would love to see a unicorn too. This seems to be the description of a utopia, not a description of past or present conditions. When in United States history was there an option to ignore your racial identity? When has American society not discriminated according to perceived racial identity? Dimadick ( talk) 08:11, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
ought to be exposed to ... thought-provoking works like Peggy McIntosh's influential essay on privilege.This is not a critique of the entire concept of white privilege. It is more a criticism of the way it's taught to high school and undergraduate college kids. Grayfell ( talk) 09:14, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
So this is no longer arguing that Friedersdorf and the Atlantic are not a reliable source? I want to be clear on that as then we can collectively focus on a summary of his argumentation and make progress. I dont disagree with some of the points you make, so progress towards consensus may be in sight, but if we agree on the summary only to revert to disagreement on whether its an RS then we are back to square one. Keith Johnston ( talk) 06:23, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
Is this subject matter controversial? This page is listed on Wikipedia page of Controversial topics - see /info/en/?search=Category:Wikipedia_controversial_topics Is this evidence that it is controversial? Keith Johnston ( talk) 07:02, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
Keith Johnston, I think you are oversimplifying the results of the Pew research report. While a majority of respondents to the poll accept the notion that whites enjoy "societal advantages" (white privilege is not called by name), there were large differences of opinion concerning the degree to which these advantages have a beneficial effect.:
So several of the Republican correspondents do believe that there are societal advantages, and several of the Democratic ones don't believe it. But they are minorities among their larger ideological groups. Dimadick ( talk) 09:52, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
"The most fundamental problem for this or any proposal to offset white privilege is this: American whites’ advantages do not constitute white privilege. Therefore, there’s nothing that needs to be offset in the first place." http://quillette.com/2017/06/24/skepticism-white-privilege/ Spencer Case, in Quillette Keith Johnston ( talk) 10:47, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Here is a very interesting article sourced from Quillette critiquing Peggy McIntosh's Invisible Backpack on the basis that it is not a scholarly analysis but rather a personal record. Here’s what Peggy McIntosh herself says on in the original 1988 paper: “This paper is a partial record of my personal observations and not a scholarly analysis. It is based on my daily experiences within my particular circumstances”
The source is here: https://quillette.com/2018/08/29/unpacking-peggy-mcintoshs-knapsack/#comment-33897
I have seen this criticism a few times now and its important because the Invisible Backpack is a foundational paper for White Privilege theory. I wonder if there is a place in this article to include this critique? Keith Johnston ( talk) 07:11, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
I have the same question. My sense is that other actors weaponized it. Between that and intersection it destroyed the beginnings of co-ordinated world wide resistance after ten years of war and the financial meltdown. Now we don’t even have a peace movement."
Thanks sorry I gave the link to the comment, not the full article. I was referring to the article, not the comment. Here it is https://quillette.com/2018/08/29/unpacking-peggy-mcintoshs-knapsack/ It is not self-published, it was published by a reliable source, Quillette. Keith Johnston ( talk) 08:01, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
The apostles of this ludicrous doctrine ...). The bio at the bottom says "William Ray is a decorated former Canadian Peacekeeper now working as a Journalist, Documentary Film-maker, and very substandard handyman. He is active in advancing Press Freedom in Montréal.". We don't appear to have an article on him at the diambig page: William Ray. Why is this person's opinion noteworthy? 08:51, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, its important to include the significant critiques of the theory and this critique, that McIntosh's essay is not based on scholarly work, has become a noteworthy critique of White Privilege theory. Jordan Peterson (gasp!) has made the same arguments here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfH8IG7Awk0. Ironically your objection that the Quillette piece is "merely the authors opinion" is precisely in the same vein as his critique of McIntosh's work. As McIntosh freely admits her original article is very much an essay, not a scholarly work but giving her "partial record of my personal observations". Keith Johnston ( talk) 14:22, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
critique? By your own description, this is its main quality, and this also appears to be the main reason you want it included here. You are, again, pushing for the inclusion of critical content solely because it is critical. This is a direct continuation of your prior disruptive behavior. As with all the other essays and youtube videos (!) you have pushed for including, you have not even indicated why this would be significant or valuable to readers, and you have so severely poisoned the well for this kind of thing that it's hard to take this kind of hyper-civil shtick seriously. Grayfell ( talk) 16:20, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 |
Critics have commented that the theoretical framework of “white privilege’ can be too easily deployed rhetorically to dismiss arguments of persons based on features of their personhood— ad hominem arguments. [1] Writing in the Harvard Political Review, Nishin Nathwani [2] argued: “The rhetoric of privilege has become a means to divert attention away from the substance of arguments to their immediate origin.” [3]. Taonga Leslie argued: “A little awareness of the privileges we are allotted by society is a good thing. It helps us to empathize with others who have not shared our advantages. However, when left uncontrolled, awareness of our privilege can quickly transform into a new form of prejudice. Instead of using privilege as a tool to understand different perspectives, too often we use it to silence and shame our opponents into submission.” [4] They note that discussion on privilege has become a powerful tool to silence certain voices entirely. [5] and those who question it are delegitimized as backwards, privileged bigots whose opinions should be at best ignored and at worst banned. [6]
Moreover they claim that white privilege has been deployed as an insult, encapsulated in the popular use of the term “Check your privilege”. Writing in Time Magazine, Tal Fortgang stated: “There is a phrase that floats around college campuses, Princeton being no exception, that threatens to strike down opinions without regard for their merits, but rather solely on the basis of the person that voiced them. “Check your privilege,” the saying goes, and I have been reprimanded by it several times this year.” [7]
In her book, The Perils of ‘Privilege’: Why Injustice Can’t Be Solved by Accusing Others of Advantage, Phoebe Maltz Bovy argues privilege has become “the word and concept of our age . . . our era’s number one insult.” whose “…role as an aide in online bullying exceeds its utility as a theoretical framework.” [8]
References
Please leave comments on this new section below. If you have issues with the RS please explain why. Thanks Keith Johnston ( talk) 11:32, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
Can you make specific objections to this criticism? Keith Johnston ( talk) 23:33, 19 August 2017 (UTC) I will give this another day and unless there are objections then I will re-post this section Keith Johnston ( talk) 13:16, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
In the absence of further commentary I will shorten the proposed section, contextualised the undergraduate publication and removed the Federalist source since we can debate if its RS later. Keith Johnston ( talk) 12:14, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
A balanced presentation of this rhetorical issue takes up one paragraph at Privilege (social inequality). Fortgang's critique appears with McIntosh's response. That's about all that's WP:DUE, in my opinion. Pulling four or five college newspaper editorials into a wall of text, however, gives WP:UNDUE weight to this concern. Indeed, some of the critics aren't critiquing the concept at all, but "its rhetorical use." We don't have a section in Racism about how being called a racist makes some people feel bad, and how some people are called racists unfairly, blah blah. Now if Wikipedia were to create a balanced article on the rhetoric of privilege, say by creating a Check your privilege page (currently redirects to Privilege (social inequality)), a bit more of these rhetorical use concerns might be germane. But still, upgrade your sources and create a dialogue of multiple viewpoints that is representative of the Reliable Sources that address the issue.-- Carwil ( talk) 15:02, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
For the record here are links to further RS critical of white privilege:
The Atlantic: "if a white person is constantly attesting to their privilege, constantly attesting that they still have things to learn, and not ever specifying what more it is that they have to learn, the idea that is somehow constructive, I suggest that be reexamined." https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/a-columbia-professors-critique-of-campus-politics/532335/
The Walrus https://thewalrus.ca/why-checking-your-privilege-doesnt-work/ PHOEBE MALTZ BOVY "This implicit, but implausible, step after the awareness epiphany is, at its essence, my issue with “privilege.” Constantly reminding everyone of where they fall . . . why would such candor lead to empathy? Why wouldn’t a society where systemic injustices are front and center in everyone’s mind at all times only serve to make interactions between men and women, blacks and whites, rich and poor, that much more fraught, inhibiting the development of everyday social and professional bonds?"
Parul Sehgal, New York Times Magazine: “the shine has come off this hardy, once-helpful word. It looks a little worn, a bit blunted, as if it has been taken to too many fights.” https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/19/magazine/how-privilege-became-a-provocation.html
Berkeley senior Efe Atli offers the following damning critique, in a Daily Cal op-ed (“Checking privilege serves to reinforce it”) from January 2016: The number[s] don’t lie. Three decades of checking privilege directly correlate with an astronomical rise in income inequality. The more inequality we have, the more privilege gets checked by more privileged people, and the more the privileged feel pleasure (and power) in being aware of their privilege and so, grow in power. http://www.dailycal.org/2016/01/22/checking-privilege-serves-to-reinforce-it/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfH8IG7Awk0 Identity politics and the Marxist lie of white privilege — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keith Johnston ( talk • contribs) 11:06, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
Quilette magazine Spencer Case: A close look at the notion of white privilege casts doubt on whether the racial disparities that currently exist within the U.S. constitute any such thing. http://quillette.com/2017/06/24/skepticism-white-privilege/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keith Johnston ( talk • contribs) 11:50, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
https://www.theatlantic.com/personal/archive/2012/04/white-privilege/256478/ In short--you need to know that I was privileged. I can run you all kinds of stats on the racial wealth gap and will gladly discuss its origins. But you can't really buy two parents like I had. White Privilege by TA-NEHISI COATES — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keith Johnston ( talk • contribs) 20:31, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
DAVID FRENCH, National Review. Discussion of “white privilege” has gone from interesting and thoughtful to stupid and malicious at the speed of social justice. There is a fascinating debate to be had about the nature of “privilege” in America — including who has real privilege and how it shapes our nation — but we’re definitely not having it. Instead, we get presumptions, paranoia, shout-downs, and power plays. There’s no intent to persuade, only bully and shame. Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/444191/racial-poison-white-privilege Keith Johnston ( talk) 23:09, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
First I have no dog in the fight. I'm Hawaiian with its unique multi-ethnic population and low levels of overt racism IMO. I'm hapa or mixed although I appear more Caucasian than anything else. I'm English, Scandinavian, Hispanic, Black or African, and Jewish. It's common here to ask about ancestry on introduction and never considered racist to do so.
So here's some observations.
1. Some appear entrenched in their opinions. 2. There is no good peer reviewed scientific studies to shed light on the theory I noticed. 3. Many are using opinion pieces not backed by sound studies as reference material. They are opinion pieces. Being published in newspapers. magazines, etc means little. Sound peer reviewed studies published in reputable journals is what should be sought. 4. White privilege seems ill defined. You can't debate well whats defined poorly and that appears based on opinion often biased. 5. Using the idea 'most' feel this way is an unscientific reason to shut down debate because numbers determine 'facts'. 6. Repeatedly deleting talk comments is unacceptable as is demonizing fellow editors. 7. The concept is a theory and this needs to be emphasized.
Suggestions:
1. I'd freeze the article for now. 2. I would not delete it as the topic exists. 3. The article needs to be rewritten from a neutral standpoint with input from all perspectives. All need to remember Wiki is neutral and this is theory. 4. The use of personal opinions is fine as long as that fact is noted. If there are no hard studies on the topic this should be noted in the intro. 5. A timeline or history of apparent/perceived advantages of being white is fine as most, even without hard studies, agree this is true. I would balance this with apparent erosion of benefits and inclusion of non-whites. I think this will be difficult to do esp staying neutral but it can be done.
That's a start and all can go from there. I'd encourage those with differing views to bend over backward to make this work.
Hope this helps and of course no one needs to follow it. Keep in mind one or a few can destroy debate and kill the article.
Good luck Jobberone ( talk) 11:03, 6 December 2017 (UTC)Jobberone
It should be clearly note that "White Privilege" is a deceptive propaganda term with a conspiracy theory as a subtext. -- 105.11.103.82 ( talk) 14:37, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
I have added critique. Please discuss any issues with these additions here. Ideally please address any issues you have with the RS. Keith Johnston ( talk) 20:45, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
Malik Shabazz, thanks, could you explain your objections to the RS? Removing well sourced RS without explanation is not acceptable editing practice. Keith Johnston ( talk) 10:15, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
@Grayfell thanks
That is incorrect, you have not explained objections to these RS. These (listed below) include articles published by The Atlantic, Time Magazine, The Washington Post and The New York Times. These are generally considered excellent RS, so I am unclear as to the nature of your objections.
https://www.theatlantic.com/personal/archive/2012/04/white-privilege/256478/
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/19/magazine/how-privilege-became-a-provocation.html
The reason I am asking you to explain is that you support deleting the content. To do this you must give reasons. I look forward to reading your specific objections to this RS. Keith Johnston ( talk) 21:57, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
I would reference these paragraphs in the article to substantiate my summary: "my identity isn't founded on the losing end of "white privilege." I understand the use of that term for social scientists and perhaps literature critics. But I generally find it most powerful and most illuminating when linked to an actual specific privilege--not fearing sexual violence, not weighing one's death against the labor of birthing, living in a neighborhood bracketed off by housing covenants, not having to compete for certain jobs etc. In its most general invocation, I'm often repulsed because I think these sorts of questions often break down in the face of actual individuals."
The world of the individual--and often the black individual--is the space where I write. It is true that I can tell you how racism--indirectly and directly--affected my life. But you should also know that I truly believe that I had the best pair of parents in the world, that I had six brothers and sisters (sometimes more) who took care of me. That my mother taught me to read when I was four, that my father put me to work when I was six. That my brother Malik taught me D&D when I was seven, that my brother Big Bill fed me hip-hop from the time I was eight till this very day. That my house was filled with books which I was given the privilege to dive in and out of. That my father published and printed books which gave a sense of Do For Self.
...In short--you need to know that I was privileged. I can run you all kinds of stats on the racial wealth gap and will gladly discuss its origins. But you can't really buy two parents like I had. Money can buy experience and exposure--but it can't make you want those things. It can't make your parents curious about the world. It can't make them moral, compassionate and caring. It can't make them love their children. As I have moved on up, in that old Jeffersonian sense, I have seen families who allegedly were more privileged. But ultimately I find merit in who they are as humans. I am unconvinced that money trumps all of their flaws"
Feel free to suggest an alternative summary. Keith Johnston ( talk) 08:18, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
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In first sentence, add adjective "controversial" before the word "term" with link to: /info/en/?search=Controversy — Preceding unsigned comment added by LeJuriste ( talk • contribs)
This is an excellent idea. The concept and the way it is taught is controversial, largely supported by leftists and left leaning liberals, critiqued by centrists and rejected by conservatives. This link to a reliable source, Pew research, backs up the idea that the concept is controversial. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/09/28/views-about-whether-whites-benefit-from-societal-advantages-split-sharply-along-racial-and-partisan-lines/ Keith Johnston ( talk) 10:30, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
{{
edit semi-protected}}
template.
~ Winged Blades
Godric
06:40, 19 April 2018 (UTC)I have found some further critique which is helpful if someone thinks they are suitable to balance the almost entirely uncritical propaganda that is the current article.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/check-your-white-privilege_us_5a130e2de4b010527d677f08 But a significant question facing progressives today is whether the use of the term “white privilege” helps or hurts building the kind of solidarity needed to promote racial justice and reverse runaway inequality.
The danger is that “white privilege” still comes across as an accusation, whether it is meant that way or not. It suggests that you as a white person are harboring racism deep within you, a kind of original sin. Because of your white skin, the power structures consider you normal. You get the benefit of the doubt while others do not because you are born into society’s white in-crowd.
This kind of dialogue can also generate defensiveness.
http://quillette.com/2018/01/27/walking-tightrope-chaos-order-interview-jordan-b-peterson/ One of the ways that left-wing ideologues seem to be winning is through Wikipedia. If you go to the “White Privilege” page you will find that it’s effectively postmodern propaganda…
It is a very intelligent point of entry for someone who is activist-minded. Why the hell wouldn’t you go on Wikipedia and gerrymander the contents? You have an ethical duty to do so.
And one of the ways this is entrenched is that the sources that underpin these misleading Wikipedia pages are professors who are peer reviewed…
Ha! Peer-reviewed…that’s such a lie! First of all, 80 percent of humanities papers are not cited once. That’s fraud! That’s what that is, right. 80 percent, that’s a very bad number. “Peer-reviewed” means you have conjured up a specialty journal that only you and your friends publish in. You each review your own publications. Then you go the library, and say “You have to buy this.” And the library says, “Because you said so we have to buy it, because that’s our mandate.” And the publisher says, “Oh good because we will sell it to the libraries at a price so inflated that the mere fact that no-one ever reads it is irrelevant.” Right, and so then the libraries buy it. And that’s your “peer-review”.
http://quillette.com/2018/01/23/privilege-checking-privilege-checkers/ Many of today’s privilege-conscious view white people and the structures of Western societies as irredeemably evil. To them, Western democratic nations are bastions of racist and sexist oppression operating under the guise of “progress.” To question the attitudes and practices of other cultures is racist, but to condemn Western society is a moral obligation.
Keith Johnston ( talk) 17:19, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
This source is Quillette (which is an RS), and the author is a professor of psychology. http://quillette.com/2018/01/27/walking-tightrope-chaos-order-interview-jordan-b-peterson/ Happy to add the quote marks to help you understand it:
"If you go to the “White Privilege” page you will find that it’s effectively postmodern propaganda…It is a very intelligent point of entry for someone who is activist-minded. Why the hell wouldn’t you go on Wikipedia and gerrymander the contents? You have an ethical duty to do so.
And one of the ways this is entrenched is that the sources that underpin these misleading Wikipedia pages are professors who are peer reviewed…
Peer-reviewed…that’s such a lie! First of all, 80 percent of humanities papers are not cited once. That’s fraud! That’s what that is, right. 80 percent, that’s a very bad number. “Peer-reviewed” means you have conjured up a specialty journal that only you and your friends publish in. You each review your own publications. Then you go the library, and say “You have to buy this.” And the library says, “Because you said so we have to buy it, because that’s our mandate.” And the publisher says, “Oh good because we will sell it to the libraries at a price so inflated that the mere fact that no-one ever reads it is irrelevant.” Right, and so then the libraries buy it. And that’s your “peer-review”."
I predict you will be unable to question the legitimacy of the RS, the source or the author. The reason for this is because you cannot. Keith Johnston ( talk) 14:29, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
politically-driven pseudo-science" is widely used to illustrate a concept and thus is appropriate in an article about that concept. Similarly with Crosley-Corcoran's viral article. Critiques from Arnesan and other scholars are fine. But that's not what you offered in this post.
"...the answer to that that is, partly!"He's saying that even though white privilege exists, and it a 'polluting' factor, we should ignore it because he doesn't like the alternatives. Since it's such a trivial, passing point in a longer interview, the effort that would be needed to summarize this neutrally would be a waste of time. Trying to warp this discussion into another argument over whether or not Peterson is, in fact, a real psychologist is totally, comically missing the point. The copy/pasted quote is cherry-picking to highlight a tangential mention that happens to include relevant words. There isn't enough to work with here, and including the quote as-is would be totally, unacceptably undue and non-neutral.
"Conor Friedersdorf objects to privilege theory by arguing that it replaces color-blindness with a “hyper-emphasis on everyone's racial or ethnic background, including artificially constructed majoritarian whiteness” and that such practice might be counter-productive noting: “nothing in U.S. history leads me to believe that encouraging people to regard whiteness as the core of their identity will end well."
"Scholarly writings are not necessarily research articles presenting data. This "politically-driven pseudo-science" is widely used to illustrate a concept and thus is appropriate in an article about that concept. Similarly with Crosley-Corcoran's viral article."
Not again!? Not the same over!? I haven't tried reading the article in detail, let alone reading the critique or criticism that User:Keith Johnston is continuing to try to provide, but I know that about six weeks ago the discussion was going nowhere, and that consensus was against him, and he was advised to let the matter drop. I see that there was a Request for Comments in August. Is it being accepted as consensus? If not, is another RFC planned to take its place (a procedure which can itself be tendentious, but is not just a filibuster in the way that continued discussion of a decided issue is? I see that you have already been given formal notice that ArbCom discretionary sanctions are available for disruptive editing; I am not sure whether you understood. I had previously said that, if stating the same point twice doesn't persuade multiple editors, simply finding another forum so as to state it five times is not likely to change minds. It appears that consensus is against you. Just drop it, or you will learn how discretionary sanctions work. Is that clear finally? Robert McClenon ( talk) 00:59, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
At the suggestion of a third party I originally referenced this proposed change on Grayfell talk page. I thought this might be useful although I was concerned that it was not the best way to reach consensus since, even if we agreed, other editors may not. In any event we did not agree and I have included that discussion here for completeness and so I can reply to the arguments raised in due course.
I have proposed the following and look forward to your comments on the talk page.
"Conor Friedersdorf objects to privilege theory by arguing that it replaces color-blindness with a “hyper-emphasis on everyone's racial or ethnic background, including artificially constructed majoritarian whiteness” and that such practice might be counter-productive noting: “nothing in U.S. history leads me to believe that encouraging people to regard whiteness as the core of their identity will end well." https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/02/the-limits-of-talking-about-privilege/386021/ Keith Johnston (talk) 10:36, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
(Copied by) Keith Johnston ( talk) 14:56, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, I was responding to your sensible suggestion that any future proposals should include actionable changes.
You say Friedersdorf is a ‘random journalist’. Rather, he is staff writer at the Atlantic, a recognised reliable source. The purpose of including reference to the Friedersdorf piece is to include important argumentation not currently contained in the White Privilege page. This is the argument that a focus on the race of the person may be ultimately counter-productive since it replaces the theory of color-blindness with a hyperemphasis on group identity which in turn leads to doomed ‘Balkanisation’. Here is Friedersdorf:
“Simplistic colorblindness is unequipped to grasp their legacy. But is the best way forward hyper-emphasis on everyone's racial or ethnic background, including artificially constructed majoritarian whiteness, on the bet that every identity group will cease succumbing to tribalism? Or should we strive for a future where all individuals can embrace or ignore their racial identity per their preference? Perhaps neither approach can ever fully succeed. But I'd argue that the former approach poses a much greater risk of balkanization, and is doomed insofar as "separate-but-equal" never actually works.”
Perhaps you are correct that the quotes could be improved and I’d be happy to have that debate. There is no need to quote extensively to make the point, which is an argument not held exclusively by Friedersdorf. I might suggest amending it to this actionable change:
] Keith Johnston ( talk) 07:26, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
"a future where all individuals can embrace or ignore their racial identity per their preference?"
And I would love to see a unicorn too. This seems to be the description of a utopia, not a description of past or present conditions. When in United States history was there an option to ignore your racial identity? When has American society not discriminated according to perceived racial identity? Dimadick ( talk) 08:11, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
ought to be exposed to ... thought-provoking works like Peggy McIntosh's influential essay on privilege.This is not a critique of the entire concept of white privilege. It is more a criticism of the way it's taught to high school and undergraduate college kids. Grayfell ( talk) 09:14, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
So this is no longer arguing that Friedersdorf and the Atlantic are not a reliable source? I want to be clear on that as then we can collectively focus on a summary of his argumentation and make progress. I dont disagree with some of the points you make, so progress towards consensus may be in sight, but if we agree on the summary only to revert to disagreement on whether its an RS then we are back to square one. Keith Johnston ( talk) 06:23, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
Is this subject matter controversial? This page is listed on Wikipedia page of Controversial topics - see /info/en/?search=Category:Wikipedia_controversial_topics Is this evidence that it is controversial? Keith Johnston ( talk) 07:02, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
Keith Johnston, I think you are oversimplifying the results of the Pew research report. While a majority of respondents to the poll accept the notion that whites enjoy "societal advantages" (white privilege is not called by name), there were large differences of opinion concerning the degree to which these advantages have a beneficial effect.:
So several of the Republican correspondents do believe that there are societal advantages, and several of the Democratic ones don't believe it. But they are minorities among their larger ideological groups. Dimadick ( talk) 09:52, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
"The most fundamental problem for this or any proposal to offset white privilege is this: American whites’ advantages do not constitute white privilege. Therefore, there’s nothing that needs to be offset in the first place." http://quillette.com/2017/06/24/skepticism-white-privilege/ Spencer Case, in Quillette Keith Johnston ( talk) 10:47, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Here is a very interesting article sourced from Quillette critiquing Peggy McIntosh's Invisible Backpack on the basis that it is not a scholarly analysis but rather a personal record. Here’s what Peggy McIntosh herself says on in the original 1988 paper: “This paper is a partial record of my personal observations and not a scholarly analysis. It is based on my daily experiences within my particular circumstances”
The source is here: https://quillette.com/2018/08/29/unpacking-peggy-mcintoshs-knapsack/#comment-33897
I have seen this criticism a few times now and its important because the Invisible Backpack is a foundational paper for White Privilege theory. I wonder if there is a place in this article to include this critique? Keith Johnston ( talk) 07:11, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
I have the same question. My sense is that other actors weaponized it. Between that and intersection it destroyed the beginnings of co-ordinated world wide resistance after ten years of war and the financial meltdown. Now we don’t even have a peace movement."
Thanks sorry I gave the link to the comment, not the full article. I was referring to the article, not the comment. Here it is https://quillette.com/2018/08/29/unpacking-peggy-mcintoshs-knapsack/ It is not self-published, it was published by a reliable source, Quillette. Keith Johnston ( talk) 08:01, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
The apostles of this ludicrous doctrine ...). The bio at the bottom says "William Ray is a decorated former Canadian Peacekeeper now working as a Journalist, Documentary Film-maker, and very substandard handyman. He is active in advancing Press Freedom in Montréal.". We don't appear to have an article on him at the diambig page: William Ray. Why is this person's opinion noteworthy? 08:51, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, its important to include the significant critiques of the theory and this critique, that McIntosh's essay is not based on scholarly work, has become a noteworthy critique of White Privilege theory. Jordan Peterson (gasp!) has made the same arguments here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfH8IG7Awk0. Ironically your objection that the Quillette piece is "merely the authors opinion" is precisely in the same vein as his critique of McIntosh's work. As McIntosh freely admits her original article is very much an essay, not a scholarly work but giving her "partial record of my personal observations". Keith Johnston ( talk) 14:22, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
critique? By your own description, this is its main quality, and this also appears to be the main reason you want it included here. You are, again, pushing for the inclusion of critical content solely because it is critical. This is a direct continuation of your prior disruptive behavior. As with all the other essays and youtube videos (!) you have pushed for including, you have not even indicated why this would be significant or valuable to readers, and you have so severely poisoned the well for this kind of thing that it's hard to take this kind of hyper-civil shtick seriously. Grayfell ( talk) 16:20, 5 September 2018 (UTC)