![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 15 |
Some people here have been insisting that Middle Easterners, Arabs, Jews etc are not white people. I do not have to say and repeat what kind of ideology is linked to that kind of position:
1. US census says they are white.
2. Traditional anthropologists say they are white.
Look at the following links by important traditional anthroplogists:
http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/coonmed/
http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/hootonmed/
I have cut and pasted this part from Hooton:
The Mediterranean Subrace. Probably the name, Mediterranean, is as good as any for a designation of the great subrace of basic, long-headed brunets that constitutes the largest number of Whites
....The definition of this type, based upon very extensive anthropometric surveys of Iran and Iraq, seems to me the most important addition to the knowledge of the contemporary White race that has been made in the last few decades
...There is not much doubt that the eastward extension of straight-nosed Mediterraneans of the Classic type provided the White basis of the early populations in southeastern Asia and Indonesia. They probably were the main carriers of the Aryan language into India at a much later date.
...Negro Africa abounds in mulatto peoples of ancient origin and often of considerable homogeneity. Most of these are tall and slender, and from their tendency to aquiline noses seem to have acquired their White blood from the Arab or Semitic type of the Mediterranean subrace.
And this from Coon:
Our area, from Morocco to Afghanistan, is the homeland and cradle of the Mediterranean race. Mediterraneans are found also in Spain, Portugal, most of Italy, Greece and the Mediterranean islands, and in all these places, as in the Middle East, they form the major genetic element in the local populations. In a dark-skinned and finer-boned form they are also found as the major population element in Pakistan and northern India.
The Sumerians were Mediterraneans skeletally. So were the ancient Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Children of Israel, and the Arabs of the early Islamic period whose skeletons I had the privilege of measuring at Nippur. A Mediterranean is a white man etc.
See also what coon says about civilization (this is obviously addressed to those Nordicists who are always trying to imply that a "Nordic Race" is responsilbe for Western civilization or even Civilization):
The Mediterraneans occupy the center of the stage; their areas of greatest concentration are precisely those where civilization is the oldest. This is to be expected, since it was they who produced it and it, in a sense, that produced them.
Of course we all know that traditional anthropology is out of favour and often in contradiction with modern population genetics, and that the concept of a discrete Mediterranean sub-race no longer holds water. But the concept of a discrete "white" race or "European race" is also in contradiction with population genetics and we are writing an article here about white people as a racial classification.
I have often said what a bad article this is, based on very strange opinions, often those left over by extremist movements like Nazi-Nordicism. It is incredible that in a Wiki article those are the norms being followed.
I will not make any changes myself. I have tried too many times, to be reverted by "some" people. I will just leave this here as additional proof of the quality of this article and the big agenda that it hides.
Veritas et Severitas 05:03, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
.....Yes, but this page is about he usage of `white'! If
Osama Bin Laden (a supposed `Mediterranean' from the Arabian Peninsular) was being described as a criminal suspect, how many people in society would describe him as a "White male in his late 40's"? The issues about Mediterraneans raised (including their form found in India, - people who are almost never seen as white in the UK, regardless of how fair they are) make us revert back to the `who is white?' debate which has been going on for years in the past 6-7 archives of discussion!
My Oxford dictionary idenifies Mediterraneanms as being dark skinned anyway! why are they classed as `white'?? why aren't Japanese classed as white because they are white skinned?
There are very few people anywhere of any race "whose racial bloodlines run pure". Trishm 01:00, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Keep telling yourself that. Saintrotter 18 February 2007
Wow, full of quality and insight. Veritas et Severitas 15:06, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
By the way, you seem to be British. Well perhaps you should know that there are people out there, and very important people, that say that you, the British, are mainly of South Western European (Read Mediterranean) origins. So, if Mediterraneans are not white, and white is supposed to be a race, why are Britons supposed to be "White"?.
Read two recently published books by leading population geneticists:
1. Blood of the Isles, by Bryan Sykes.
2. The Origins of the British, by Stephen Oppenheimer.
Here you have some quotations from the books. Conclusion: Britons are mainly of South Western European Origins, that is of Iberian origins (If you do not know what that is, well of Spanish origins). In my style, I introduce science, but I am getting bored of the street approach of contributors here:
As far as Blood of the Isles is concerned here you have some citations:
The maps and the data in the Scotland paper( See:
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1393742006) have been taken from pages 290 and 292 in the book.
The book is full of interesting stuff. Just some relevant issues:
Page 280.
...the presence of large numbers of Jasmines’s Oceanic clan, says to me that there was a very large-scale movement along the Atlantic see board north from Iberia, beginning as far back as the early Neolithic and perhaps even before that. The number of exact and close matches between the maternal clans of western and northern Iberia and the western half of the Isles is very impressive, much more so than the much poorer matches with continental Europe.
Note: In this case he is not talking of the famous R1b. He is talking of other genetic markers.
Pages 281-82.
The genetic evidence shows that a large proportion of Irish Celts, on both the male and female side, did arrive from Iberia at or the same time as farming reached the Isles.
The connection to Spain is also there in the myth of Brutus………. This too may be the faint echo of the same origin myth as the Milesian Irish and the connection to Iberia is almost as strong in the British regions as it is in Ireland.
Picts….. They are from the same mixture of Iberian and Euroepean Mesolithic ancestry that forms the Pictish/Celtic substructure of the Isles.
Note: The European Mesolithic is also believed to have originated in Iberia. Sykes thinks that most Britons come from Neolithic migrations. Oppenheimer from Mesolithic ones. Both originating in Iberia.
Page 283.
Here again, the strongest signal is a Celtic one, in the form of the clan of Oisin, which dominates the scene all over the Isles. The predominance in every part of the Isles of the Atlantic chromosome (the most frequent in the Oisin clan), with its strong affinities to Iberia, along with other matches and the evidence from the maternal side convinces me that it is from this direction that we must look for the origin of Oisin and the great majority of our Y-chromosomes. The sea routes of the atlantic fringe conveyed both men and women to the Isles.
Note: I think it is clear that Sykes is talking of:
1. Subgroups of R1b. (Atlantic modal haplotype and other subgroups)
2. Maternal DNA.
3. Other matches.
Oppenheimer is more specific about those other matches. He claims that also the E3b and J lineages arrived in Britain from Iberia and also some I lineages (subgroups) that are present mainly in Iberia, etc.
And for the one hundredth time. Apart form using previous published material, Sykes has used his own samples: More than 10.000 samples from all over the British Isles never published before: A ten-year long job. No other genetic study either in the British Isles or in any other country has been so extensive yet.
As far as The Origins of the British, by Oppenheimer is concerned.
1. Huge book: 534 pages. Impossible to go in detail here. I would advise it before Blood of the Isles, because it goes into much more detail.
2. Main ideas.
Celts: He elaborates a lot on this using history, linguistics and, the big new approach, genetics.
Pages: Especially 19-91.
His conclusion: British Celts and British Celtic languages do not come from Central Europe. They come from Spain.
3. British population in general:
They are mainly of South-Western European origin. Exactly of Iberian origins (Spanish origins).
He gives ample genetic evidence, along with historical and archaeological data. The genetic evidence is about different genetic markers, including maternal and paternal DNA.
An exact quotation:
Page 375.
By far the majority of male gene types in the British Isles derive from Iberia, ranging from a low of 59% in Fakenham, Norfolk to highs of 96% in Llangefni, north Wales and 93% Castlerea, Ireland. On average only 30% of gene types in England derive from north-west Europe. Even without dating the earlier waves of north-west European immigration, this invalidates the Anglo-Saxon wipeout theory.
In short, all these new books using genetics in conjunction with historical accounts, archaeology and linguistics, are much more important than most people here seem to think. They will inevitably have a huge impact (they are having it already) about the views on the origins and roots of all British people and according to some people here about their "whiteness".
Both authors are from the University of Oxford and both books have just been published. Veritas et Severitas 03:22, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
How about the Black Irish and indigenous Scandinavians with natural black hair? Are they considered Whites too? -- 203.15.122.35 05:48, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Why were the above comments by Veritas included in the section on the usage of the term `white' in Australia?? The Australian section now looks like a complete muddle! I am from Australia not Britain as Veritas surmised and like I have stated, `white' is not used in the census as an indicator of ethnicity. Regions of Europe are. This is due to the fact that `white' is an opinion based subject, not one based on scientific fact. By the way, I do not deny the British peoples Iberian DNA, but bare in mind that much of Iberian immigration to the British isles pre-dated Moorish occupation as well as African slave importation as well. If the average Australian wishes to use the term `white' to identify what the word literally means, then so be it! It is not a scientific measure anyway. Southern Europeans in Australia would also be considered white if that's what they `looked' like in appearance! Nowadays, the term `Anglo' is becomeing more popular to distinguish Nordics from Meds. Globally most people would use the word `white' to identify an appearance rather than a person's DNA (which is not cosmetically noticible - lol) or their heritage. Be honest, many Mediterraneans do have an appearance distinctively different to Nordics, so if the appearance differs, then why shouldn't the perception?.
It should be made by an anthropologist. Only a person with very nazi and nordicism ideas would have made this article. Why make too long parts about blond and red hair and light eye color. Most of white people have brown eyes and mid-brown to dark brown hair.This article is meaning that if I have brown eyes and dark hair I´m not white. It´s stupid. Hitler, the Nazi leader had black hair, wasn´t he white???? And there are many blond and light eyed people in Southern Europe, for example see a picture of the Spanish Royal Family. It´s ok to put pictures of that red haired and blonde girls, but also put pictures of white people with all kind of features not only the light haired and light eyed. Lithop 03:56, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
But they do not like anthropologists, either traditional ones or genetic anthropologists. They just want to use the article for their propaganda. They prefer the definitions that you can find in highly respected academic circles like Stormfront. This article is dominated from the beginning by Nordicist ideas of people (many of them (not all)from the so-called Anglo-Saxon world) who have been brought up with so much ignorance that some comments are risible. Others just have a clear agenda.
By the way, did you notice again how user Lukas erased the references to Arabs and Jews, although they are clearly cited above by traditional anthropologists?
As to genetics, they like to post those parts that they like and erase those that they do not like. Just follow them. Some users are particularly worried about "losing" the British in their Nordicist fantasies. What else would they have left! Veritas et Severitas 01:28, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
That picture is perfectly representative. I do not include it because I do not know yet how to do it. And Pavarotti, leaving also the pictures that are there now too. So, the picture section would be less biased. Veritas et Severitas 19:18, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
As to Dark t. and other users what can we say? I have said more than once that some (only some I want to leave this clear) Americans, Australians, etc.. think themselves whiter and more European than the Europeans themselves. It may be just because they live in countries that have an intensive history of bigotry and they cannot swallow easily that they are increasingly becoming non-White nations (in my opinion much more interesting for that, but they obviously see it differently). Just travel to any US city. The country is no more "white" than some South American countries, and I could bet my right hand that Uruguay and Argentina are right now "whiter" than the US by all means. It does not matter what their statistics say or how their media want to present them on TV or in the movies. Anyone who knows the country well knows it. Their position is probably one way to steam off the growing inferiority complex of some radical "whites"(because of their view on white and non-white peoples and nations). It must piss them off that some South American or even Muslim countries like Turkey are by all means whiter than their countries and nations. It is sad. They may deserve some understanding. A shoulder to cry on. So they come here with their risible arguments: But these are considered white and those not by my uncle! It sounds like a desperate cry to claim their "whiteness" or their "Europeanness" or God knows what. Anyway, in the case of the Americans, I would go around more cautiously. Some of them seem to ignore to which extent anti-Americanism has often a racist tinge and it does not only come from Arab countries. Have just a look at this fascist site and how Anglo-Americans are portrayed below the Hitler pictures. See:
http://www.thecivicplatform.com/2007/01/
If you cannot open it, I have cut and posted this part:
U.S. is definitely Judeo-Saxon in every sense: culturally, socially, and morally. The old-money W.A.S.P.s and Ashkenazi Jews are also increasingly intermarrying one another, so within a few generations, distinctions may be further blurred than at present.
As the great German intellectual Werner Sombart said: “Americanism is to a great extent distilled Judaism.”
Should we use these spurious and radical views now to claim that Anglo-Americans are not white, because as some people have been insisting here (some Americans, by the way), Jews are not white? Veritas et Severitas 20:28, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, and how about the indigenous Scandinavians and Celtic people that have black hair? They're not White too? Perhaps it is true that some of the users of this article are basing their facts on Nazism and Nordicism ideas of the White race. -- 203.15.122.35 02:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I should force my friend to pose as an example, he is Greek but damn, you would never belive it. When you see his mother or father you wouldn't you belive that they are Greek either. I mean when he told me that he was Greek I was like yeah right the dude is as German as it gets. But nope, he is fully Greek. VERY light blonde hair, blue eyes totaly German looking facial structure and he is tall as hell too, like 195cm something (17years old). I know the picture that I have of mediterraneans isn't correct but I always see 'em looking like Turks, black hair brown eyes short ppl :P. I mean seriously I didn't belive that he was Greek untill he started speaking Greek. Anyway what I'm trying to say is that you can find "extreme whites" everywhere of every European acestry. But then again my gril friend who is German has black hair although she does have blue eyes id belive her more if she said that she was greek than I would my Greek class mate.-- DerMeister 20:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Heres a race map made by an american anthropligist made in 1899. The most interesting and relevant thing is that he shows that people living in certain areas of the british isles are of medditeranean appearance. Im sure most people will be unaware of this so i think it has relevance to the article. It also shows germany is not entirely nordic which is contrary to the stereotype .
race map http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Passing_of_the_Great_Race_-_Map_4.jpg race article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_race
-- Globe01 19:48, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Just two comments:
1. Berbers have always been considered ¨white´by physical anthropology. I do not care about uncle Tom again and the American mental diarrhoea in racial issues, although the US census itself classifies them as ¨white¨¨. So it seems that this mental diarrhoea does not represent Americans officially, but just "some" Americans or others.
2. The lack of reference in the Physical section to dark hair is incredible and should be fixed.
3. The pictures should be fixed and be more representative and less tendentious.
I will not do it myself but I will support other users if they want to do it. Veritas et Severitas 17:42, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
dark tea you racist you quote berbers as being "the miscegenation of the white and black races". You may not agree with that statement but at least et us know by showing us your opinon of the statement.
In terms of black hair, the vast majority of irish and welsh people have black hair and they are considered white. Anthropoligits consider the welsh to be of almost entirely medieterranean [2] appearance yet the welsh are still considered white but some do not consider other mediteranean appearing nations such as italinas to be white.
There is a lot of controversy in the term of applying white to nations, (mainly from historical nordicism and pastpolitical agendasit is stupid, some italians are blond haired and blue eyed, very small numebers of scandinavians have a med appearance yet scandinavians are called a white nation.
No nation is white or non white, merely there are just different rations of white to non white poeple in those nations. -- Globe01 17:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Do not even respond to Dark T. He makes no sense at all. Just look at his/her comments. Since administrators do not have what it takes to block people like that, at least just ignore people with severe mental diarrhoea. Note: He is the guy who said that Hitler would be a good example for the pictures or Stormfronters good contributors here. I think that is about enough for this guy. Anyway, just to uncover this guy once and for all:
1. Dark T. is a troll that defends strange Nazi-like ideas, that are even more extreme than the ones of the Nazis themselves.
2. Or, he/she is someone who hates so-called white people, Jewish people, etc, so much that will do anything to post here racist comments all the time as some kind of strategy for some kind of agenda.
In any case, as said. I propose that you just ignore him/her and keep an eye out for him/her as well in the body of the article.
And about Berber: Yes my friends, Berbers were classified as whites by 20th century main anthropologists and for the Americans that are very interested in this article, the US census classifies them as white (I do not have to give the links again, they are above). That is it. Something else is if we can speak of a discrete white race as was traditionally assumed or not etc. My opinion is 'No", but that applies to all people that wee classified as white, not just to Berbers. And again, uncle Tom's and Aunt Annies opinions are opinions of no concern here, let alone the opinions of Nazi-Nordicists that are an insult to intelligence.
And as to the issue that Berbers are a diverse people:
1. Who are not a diverse people? According to genetic anthropology (science, not aunt Annie again) with the possible exception of some Eskimos and some tribes in the remotest places of the planet, the rest of the peoples are all very diverse peoples indeed.
2 Are Americans, Australians or Brazilians not diverse? Should we say that because of that none of them should be considered "white" or that Americans, etc are not white people.
Anyway, as to some questions here, let us start with the hair section. I will just make a very extremely objective and short presentation. Veritas et Severitas 18:40, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Really, Dark T. here you have again what some people think of Americans:
http://www.thecivicplatform.com/2007/01/
If you cannot open it, I have cut and posted this part:
U.S. is definitely Judeo-Saxon in every sense: culturally, socially, and morally. The old-money W.A.S.P.s and Ashkenazi Jews are also increasingly intermarrying one another, so within a few generations, distinctions may be further blurred than at present.
As the great German intellectual Werner Sombart said: “Americanism is to a great extent distilled Judaism.”
You can also check what "some" Europeans think about Americans in Anti-Americanism.
If you are too lazy to read I will help you cutting and pasting:
Racialism
In the middle of the nineteenth century, the racialist theories of Arthur de Gobineau and others spread through Europe. The presence of blacks and "lower quality" immigrant groups made racialist thinkers discount the potential of the United States. The infinite mixing of America would lead to the ultimate degeneracy. Gobineau said that America was creating "greatest mediocrity in all fields: mediocrity of physical strength, mediocrity of beauty, mediocrity of intellectual capacities - we could almost say nothingness."
There you have one that seems to be one of your favorite authors: Gobineau. I will keep posting the same responses all the time, since you seem to ignore them all the time as well. By the way, as a Californian that you seem to be, to claim that whites do not live side by side with browns and blacks, using your own terminology, in the US and California, is most funny. Go on, I am having a good time. Veritas et Severitas 20:47, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I must admit that I am quite amused by these pictures. I was going to be facetious and insult the pathetic nature of the website (which, BTW, it is inevitable that anyone with common sense would do). Anyhow, just a logical observation/comment about the pictures of the white people you show. Why *these* pictures - why not some kind of population average? Or, better yet, choose a selection of white leaders that white people have historically chosen (you can't tell me that neither Hitler nor Stalin were white - so why discriminate against them. This would seem to be especially immoral and subversive given the phenonenal contributions that they made to the furtherance of whites. What amount famous white imperialists? Why do we choose individuals who are not famous. By the admition of white populations, it must surely be the case that whites would want to be represented by such individuals (their policies, histories, actions, beliefs are inherently racist - just like their political leaders!).
Why these pictures, I am under the impression that they create a false positive impression of the white race. --Betterfaith.
Yes Hitler and Stalin are considered white, but so are considered a few hundreds of millions of people. Unfortunately the term white has been hijacked in such a way by extremists that I cannot understand how people can still use it to classify themselves. There are a lot of people who would be considered white that are ashamed of the term. I am from Europe, and I can tell you that this term is increasingly being used down here almost exclusively in Neo-Nazi circles. But we are here dealing with an article that is supposed to be about a kind of people and some of us are trying to make the best of it, so that at least the terms European or Western Civilization are not hijacked as well by the same people. Veritas et Severitas 20:43, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
User:LSLM insists on putting material about the origin of people from British Isles. I think, in his own mind, this is relevant. However it isnt. The text says "sometimes excluding people from the Balkans, and Mediterranean basin." It means present or near present by basin (hundreds of years). Not thousands of years ago. So even if people from British Isles descend from Med or not, this doesnt mean they are same with CURRENT med. people. Since some or most of Med people today may have descended from elsewhere in the past.
See my comments below and get some basic education on ancestry, genetics and relationships among present populations. Veritas et Severitas 19:17, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
For ex, According to LSLM's logic, black people shouldnt be considered black because all humans descend from Africa.
So there is a time factor here which makes the addition of text about British origins irrelevant in the context of Australia section. Lukas19 21:04, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
This may be worthy of inclusion in the article, as it shows that perceptions of "White" are really social. LSLM also seems to have some sort of POV to push, particularly regarding his insistence that British people are descended from an Iberian refuge, and have a particularly close affinity to Spanish people. Neither Oppenheimer nor Sykes make this claim, they do make claims in support of Barry Cunliffe's ideas regarding a model for a long term cultural and biological relationship between the peoples of the Atlantic facade of Europe, Cunliffe thinks this relationship is very ancient (as long ago as the mesolithic) and survived for a very very long time (because Sea travel was far and away the safest, quickest and easiest way to travel for the vast majority of the time since the last Ice Age ended) he calls this the Long Durée, [4] others have also drawn the conclusion that genetics supports this hypothesis, particularly geneticists from Ireland, who Sykes mentiones in his book. The Longue Durée of Genetic Ancestry: Multiple Genetic Marker Systems and Celtic Origins on the Atlantic Facade of Europe. What neither of these scientists claim is that this relationship extends to the eastern coast of Great Britain. Indeed Oppenheimer makes a good case for a similar long term relationship between the peoples of the east coast of Great Britain (including Orkney and Shetland) and the germanic speaking peoples of Scandinavia and the North Sea coast, his argument is that germanic languages and culture may be as old in the east of Great Britain (including eastern Scotland, he thinks Pictish may have been a precursor to Lallans) as Celtic ones are in the west (ie as old as the neolithic) and that people in the east of Great Britain (English and Scots) are culturally and biologically much more like Scandinavians in the north east of Great Britiain, and much more like Belgians in the south east. So LSLM has distorted this work to support his POV, a POV the book doesn't actually support. He also made this change, but in fact the original wording was far more accurate than LSLM's. Western European mtDNA and Y chromosoms DNA indicates that the vast majority have matrilinear and patrilinear descent from people tha occupied the western European Ice age refuge, but this was not just a Basque Country and Spanish refuge, as LSLM claims. Stephen Oppenheimer describes the refuge thus The refuge of south west Europe was spread either side of the Pyrenees in southern and eastern France, the Basque Country, and other northern coastal parts of Spain such as Galicia and Catalonia. (Oppenheimer p. 103) Whatever POV Lukas wants to push (some brand of Nordicism apparently, from his continual insistence that northern Europeans are different from southern Europeans) European mtDNA and Y chromosome data clearly point to an east-west cline in Europe rather than a north south cline, and there is little evidence of large scale immigration into southern Europe that did not affect northern Europe, this is not to say that none occured, but it is evident that it has not dramatically affected the population. Neolithic expansion seems to have been a combination of cultural diffusion and some small scale population movements, but there is clear evidence of a neolithic (that is Near Eastern) component to the British population, so what small scale intrusion that did occur does seem to have reached the British Isles. There is little evidence of any sort of large scale migration to any part of Europe after the neolithic. Alun 06:23, 19 January 2007 (UTC)The problem came when Mr. Bennett died. His will left all to his beloved wife, Louetta. But his relatives contested the man’s will on the grounds that their long and fruitful marriage had been illegal all along, because Louetta had started life as a Black baby. In a terse opinion, Bennett v. Bennett,1940 South Carolina, (most of which is the above summary), South Carolina Supreme Court Justices Milledge L. Bonham, D. Gordon Baker, E. L. Fishburne, Taylor H. Stukes, and L. D. Lide ruled that over her lifetime, Louetta had become irrevocably White, and they dismissed the will contestation unanimously. [3]
I have not read the book? Well I provide quotes and not opinions. I do not disagree with what you say though, but I just try to address specific issues(in this case the opinions of "some" people in some Anglo-Celtic countries). It is true that this population group, using genetic terminology, is the most common is Western Europe, but it is also true that it is especially common in the British Isles and in the Iberian peninsula. If people from other places came with strange opinions and if I had verifiable information to reveal how ridiculous they were, I would do the same, and that is my opinion, you do not have to agree with it. But this makes no sense anymore. This is not an issue right now. Anyway, as to how to contribute, I respect your opinion but I have my own. Veritas et Severitas 18:05, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Look at the history of the article. Well, just a small detail, but interesting how these "some" people go at it all the time. Dark says that most white people do not have dark hair. So, most white people are supposed to be blond or have red hair. Comments please. Let us see if with a little patience we can unconver all these people once and for all. Veritas et Severitas
Europe is home to 728 million people in 2005 according to the United Nations. The places that you mention are peanuts in comparison, and even in those places, most people are dark haired and certainly most people are neither blond nor red haired, like it or not.
Besides, stop speaking of those places all the time as if it was the cradle of the "white" race. Those places are highly multiracial and badly represent the majority of people who are considered white, although some of them (like you) so badly want to. The fact that you speak of South Africa as a significant place or representative place of white population is ludicrous enough and quite interesting in relation to your view of the world. Veritas et Severitas 16:27, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Lukas has introduced one new picture that was proposed by Wobble, but replacing the Frenchman picture. I think he could have left the Frechman as well, but I think he makes a point: Better to introduce known personalities. I will introduce another that is very interesting: The President of the European Union Comission. The closest thing to a President that the European Union has. Veritas et Severitas 02:05, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Maybe one of the reasons as to why West Asians and North Africans are considered `white' in the U.S. Census and nowhere else in the Western world is based on the fact that America has a pro-Israel government and for their own contentious claims want to include Israelis as white!! Israel even stakes a claim in the Eurovision Song Contest even though it is not even a part of Europe!! It doesn't look good to state ``White means native Europeans and Israelis' now does it!!??
Again, read comments above: Those people are as white are any white, according to physical anthropology and censuses like the US. Your auntie or mine or theirs do not count. But you are right, some people want to use a "racial" term according to different political agendas. thisw is the biggest problem of this article.
And if some people here mean by white what it literally means, like the comment in the Australian section (a white piece of paper is white), then we should start making up a new term, because there are certainly no white people in the world. Even the picture of the pale American woman. Just, look at her shirt, that is white!, certainly not her skin. Speaking of a term that has been appropriated while being a big lie would be stuff for a long discussion though. Veritas et Severitas 16:31, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Britons - reply to Lukas
Many britons do descend from the med Lukas, but the med has not changed genetically much since the last people left the northern spain to go to the british isles in the neolithic, espcecially northern spain and southwestern france.
Perhaps we should add this and mention the specific region of the med basin.
Lukas the point is relevant as the Basques have changed genetically very little and avoided any neolithic input (middle eastern which i think is what you are trying to say makes med people non white). The basques are not considered white however, and they are anthroplogically similar to the welsh who actually have slightly more neolithic than the basques).
Basically we need to mention that britons and irish people are gnetically similar to eh basques on both male and female chromosomes and descend from that region predominantly aswell as keeping the anthroplogical cites of a med appearance in parts of the British isles in order to show the hippocracy of the term white and its fallacy and also to not give off stereotypes about ethnicity that are mentioned in the australian sections (i.e pasty celtic or anglo saxon appearance is what aussies consider white ). That is a very inaccurate stereotype and if we are going to include it in their opinion of white pople we need to let users no that this stereotype is false and present then with real scientific evidence using anthroplogy and genetics. -- Globe01 18:22, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you Globe. The point is that "some" users here have been implying that only true "Nordics" are white and that "Mediterraneans" are not "white" according to their uncles and aunts, and it is so implied in the Australian section. So, the clarification is more than necessary, especially since the people making these claims come from the so-called Anglo-Celtic countries and if they are themselves Anglo-Celts they are likely to be themselves mainly of south western European ancestry without even knowing it. And it is very important because these "some" people think themselves mainly of "Nordic" or north western European ancestry and that is what they are implying all the time with their comments. Well, even if they were, so what? But then, according to Oppenheimer only about 30% of people in England are of north-western European origins, while in the rest of the Isles this proportion is much smaller. He clearly claims that the rest are overwhelmingly of Iberian origins. And Sykes comes to similar conclusions, only he dates the main migrations to the Isles much more recently than Oppenheimer. Then, how do they know? Well, comparing the genetic fingerprint of modern-day Britons and modern-day Iberians, of course, which are very similar, in some cases, as you said, extremely similar. And Iberians are West Mediterraneans, with the Basques having conserved their genetic fingerprint specially unchanged but being, as Oppenheimer also states in his book, a population representative of South Western Europe, that is Iberia (Portugal and Spain). So, "some" people with a clear Nordicist bias in this article from the very beginning, coming from the US, Canada and Australia, just need some basic education on this issue. If people want to insist I can provide exact quotes from the books just published and insert them in the body of the article. There are plenty of them of relevance here. Veritas et Severitas 20:58, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
This article belongs in the Uncyclopedia. This article is sadly obvious. Who, but racist types, think about this kind of thing? Someone has a 'White Emperialist' obsession.
THOSE WHO ARE PUSHING THE IDEA THAT MIDDLE EASTERNERS, INDIANS AND NORTH AFRICANS ARE `WHITE', THEN PLEASE REVERT YOUR DISCUSSUIONS TO THE
Caucasian Race PAGE!!!! Thank you !!
Add this image of Indian polititian Omar Abdullah on the main page since he is an Aryan and looks `whiter' than José Manuel Barroso!!!
http://164.100.24.208/ls/lsmember/13biodata/2.jpg
Once again this happens here all the time because people insist on deleting crucial information. Then we have these responses: I introduced physical anthropologists and how they classified those people as white in the 20th century or how in the US census they are considered white. But one user thought it was not necessary to speak about it so much and deleted it, leaving a short comment. Nothing new. Veritas et Severitas 18:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
So southern Europeans are White people to? Many of them have skin complexion isn't as pale as the Nordic and Celtic people? How can they be Whites?
Why should they be white? why should anyone be white?. Have you really ever seen a person that is white? All people are some sort of brown, sometimes even pinkish, but never white. But some people like to call themselves "white", put it in official documents, associate with Western Culture and with Europeans and others. To call people "white" in itself is a big lie and the result of Eurocentrism, but here we are.See also my response on the bottom. Veritas et Severitas 13:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I have expressed above the interesting American bias in this article by "some" users, especially at the beginning and how they continue to go at it with a clear Nordicist bias and believing themselves almost the only whites in the world or equating White = "Nordic" (Should we say Aryan?) (Nazism was based on Nordicism for those who do not know). I will continue my own private project here highlighting these types of contributions and the place of origins of these users. It seems that after World War II Americans made a great effort to "de-nazify" Germany and they forgot their own backyard, without realizing how contaminated it was, while these "some" users seem to be oblivious of what people with these ideas in Europe often think about the Americans themselves. It can also serve to analyze the strange and twisted approach to "race" by these people, who seem to want to impose it as a world view.
See the following users' latest contributions and the history of the article and their countries of Origin. I will be posting them one by one from now on:
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:GrandpaDoc (This guy removed images of Nacy Pelosi and Jose Manuel Barroso).
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Common_Sense7 (This guy removed Germany, from the US section that said that once they were not considered white along with other Europeans and the Nancy Pelosi picture. Does his common sense represents American common sense?
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Uncle_G (Just look at this user and his comments about a new race): brown people. Look at the history of the article and statements like: all Mexicans are considered brown. (This place is a sociological gold mine).
4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dark_Tichondrias (This user said that Hitler was a good example for the pictures and that stormfronters would be good contributors here and agree that all these positions represent Americans. she also fails to grasp that this article is not about the Americans. There is an article called White Americans for that purpose).
5. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ju66l3r (this user insits on deleteing the fact that white people are not literally "white") Just look at his contributions here and in brown people.
Veritas et Severitas 16:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Comments:
As promised Dark T., to the same arguments that you always repeat, you will get always the same response:
Here you have again what "some" people think of Americans:
http://www.thecivicplatform.com/2007/01/
If you cannot open it, I have cut and posted this part:
U.S. is definitely Judeo-Saxon in every sense: culturally, socially, and morally. The old-money W.A.S.P.s and Ashkenazi Jews are also increasingly intermarrying one another, so within a few generations, distinctions may be further blurred than at present.
As the great German intellectual Werner Sombart said: “Americanism is to a great extent distilled Judaism.”
You can also check what "some" Europeans think about Americans in Anti-Americanism.
If you are too lazy to read I will help you cutting and pasting:
Racialism
In the middle of the nineteenth century, the racialist theories of Arthur de Gobineau and others spread through Europe. The presence of blacks and "lower quality" immigrant groups made racialist thinkers discount the potential of the United States. The infinite mixing of America would lead to the ultimate degeneracy. Gobineau said that America was creating "greatest mediocrity in all fields: mediocrity of physical strength, mediocrity of beauty, mediocrity of intellectual capacities - we could almost say nothingness."
There you have one that seems to be one of your favorite authors: Gobineau. I do not need to mention what a racist charlatan this Gobineau was, but following your own arguments, why should any Americans be considered "white" at all, even if they look ¨white¨? Veritas et Severitas 20:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Then again, why should the rest of the world, and this is a world article, not an American article, consider Americans white at all, following your own premises. Veritas et Severitas 21:46, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, not so much the people I mentioned before or your own rationale. Anyway, you are proposing a double standard, one for the Americans and one for others. That is not just neither acceptable nor reasonable. Veritas et Severitas 22:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I think what you propose is mainly an extremist and marginal point of view, in the same way as I would consider it an extremist and marginal point of view to speak of Americans according to the fascist site above or to Gobineau. I think that our positions are already clear. Veritas et Severitas 03:23, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Are Arabs and ethnic Jews White people? Surely a lot of them have light hair and skin complexion as fair as the Europeans, for example, Paul Newman and Omar Sharif. -- Fantastic4boy 06:32, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that there are no people that are really "white". I have already said it: take a white piece of paper or a white shirt and compare it with anyone. No none is literally "white". We are all some sort of brown, some people may even look pinkish or even reddish, but certainly never "white". It is a Eurocentric term and a misnomer. But physical anthropologists and some countries that like to classify people in races say that they are "white". This reminds me of one case that took place in South Africa during Apartheid and was commented in the news: One judge was convicting a prisoner and referred to him as black, the person said that he did not like to be called black, then the judge said: why don't you like to call yourself black if you are black? The prisoner responded: why do you like to call yourself white if you are "pink"? Veritas et Severitas 13:27, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Added and reverted statement: The term white is a misnomer. Most white people are some kind of brown shade, some may even look pinkish or reddish, but none of them looks literally white. The term is the result of a eurocentric view of race.
First, this statement is better and more accurately stated within the entire rest of the article. The history of the term section describes the source in ancient Greek/Latin for example. To annotate this as simply a "eurocentric view of race" is not established by what is provided and lacks any sourcing. Just an unnecessary addition, but if it's truly warranted, it should be in the section discussing physical traits of White people, like the section called "Light skin", and not in the lead (particularly not the first sentence of the article as it's not useful in introducing the term "White people". ju66l3r 19:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I have already said it: :Do not agree. It is a fact and the article should start indicating this discrepancy. I am putting it back. Veritas et Severitas 19:23, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
As said, due to the fact that it is an important discrepancy with the term itself, it should be at the start of the article. But just to avoid an edit war, I will wait for other users to comment on the best position for this important fact and discrepancy between "white" to refer to people and the real color "white", or the fact that white people are in fact some shade of brown or even may look like other colors like pinkish or reddish but certainly not white, not even albinos. Veritas et Severitas 19:50, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I am putting it back though. After seeing your attitude if the Brown People particle, I think that your arguments are not convincing,. Veritas et Severitas 20:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
You have violated the 3 revert rule, my friend, while you seem to have similar problems with your own point of view in the Brown people article. Veritas et Severitas 22:23, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
The term "White" in the UK never considered Asian Indians, Middle Eastern, and North Africans, but until recently people from India were considered "Whites" by the official US racial classification, and Middle Easterners still are. There are large variations in racial taxonomy across countries. Some taxonomies emphasize ancestry (e.g., US), others ethnicity (UK and Canada), and still others skin color (Brazil). Strictly speaking, these taxonomies, although they overlap in some cases, are not identical. [5]
I have protected the page due to edit-warring on both sides. Please discuss changes to the article first before editing, not just for the sake of the article, but for the sake of everyone sanity, including admins who have to constantly see accusations (factual or not) of misconduct on both sides. In short, just discuss first before editing. -- 210 physicq ( c) 22:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Suggestion: The essence of this text is worth including in the lead, but it makes a horrible first sentence. So why not tweak it and put it second. Disputed version:
Suggested replacement.
-- Carwil 23:31, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Alun 18:19, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm totally uninterested in these electromagnetic and "what is a color?" arguments, though I invite you to have them with the editors of white and color. Back in the world of describing people, Lukas has made one point in this long discussion:
To respond, yes, Europeans are capable of making color distinctions, and perhaps even reasonably describing people's skin as white, and extending that description to them as a whole. The Greeks quoted in the article did it, so do many people we all know. This "white" is a quality that disappears when one gets a suntan or a sunburn or jaundice. However, it is not what "white people" in the article refers to. No one is out of the racial, legal, societal etc. category of white people because they have a sunburn. Millions are included in the racial, legal, societal etc. category of white people despite the fact that their skin is darker than most Japanese people. In fact, the physical perception is probably not itself notable, but even if it were, it belongs as White (human skin color), with none of the cultural, historical and other material discussed here. Now the fact that people who's skin is white to some observers are linked in a social category to millions of others in the category of "white people" is a social fact, and it's a social fact that emerged in Europe and in colonies administered by Europe as a way of defining race (thus "emerged from a racialized, European historical context") So here's one last revision for y'all to chew on.
I'm not actually wedded to "misnomer", so here's another try. But I think this is as far as I can go, so further watering down will require a third editor's opinion. Lukas, please take your "electromagnetic" misnomer concern to color metaphors for race and stop blocking consensus here about a side issue.
-- Carwil 01:40, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Here's my two penneth, it should not address "colour" but the amount of pigmentation, this is more accurate and can be explained by "degree" of pigmentation.
I'm going to post an RfC, and feel neutral about the color list/pigmentation text, but quite strongly about the cultural context of extension, and feel that avoiding the word literal for Lukas' reasons is just plain silly. Nonetheless, here are three proposed options. Alun, could you indicate whether 2 is acceptable, or amend it to make it so. Lukas, indicate whether 3 is acceptable, or you insist on 4 or 5. I would prefer 1 or 2, would muddle through with 3, so long as we are clear the vast majority are not perceived as white in the skin color section, and would object strongly to 4 or 5.-- Carwil 21:32, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
If you want votes I vote for number 1, of course. Veritas et Severitas 01:16, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
People judge color based on comparison and context so that what is one color in one situation or context is another color in a different context or situation. I remember a case of a light skinned self described "black" person who went to Africa and was universally called "white" by Africans. I remember seeing a TV documentary on current African immigration to Holland and one African women said that when she got to Holland she was shocked "because they really were white!" It is all a matter of compared to what. WAS 4.250 14:58, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Veritas et Severitas makes very good points, we should take their advice and change the article for the better. -- Margrave1206 23:24, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
March of the Titans either found here [http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/index.htm white people] #1 or here white people #2 is a great source for white history that has not been rejected. He cites sources, so it meets the verifiability requirement for inclusion. Sure, Dienekes Pontikos says he's wrong but let's examine Pontikos' arguments against Kemp. Pontikos first begins with ad hominems about Kemp being a "Nordicist" which are logically irrelevent to Kemp's arguments. Then, Pontikos claims other people have interpreted the genetics differently. Similarly, Pontikos claims the ancient artwork could be interpreted differently. Stewart also claims Kemp is wrong, but his arguments are merely unreferenced statements. It is clear that although people disagree with Kemp, they do not refute Kemp, so the website does is not rejected on those grounds.-- Dark Tea 23:37, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
March of the Titans either found [http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/index.htm white people] #1 or here white people #2 is a great source for white history that meets Wikipedias policy on being a reliable source. First, we must examine "attributability". Even though Pontikos claims he's a Nordicist, what does that mean and does he have any evidence? His publication did not grade some races as less and some as higher which would be a characteristic of racism. Surely, just stating a hypothesis that southern Europeans miscegenated with tha non-white races does not constitute Nordicism in itself. Nordicism would be a belief in the superiority of the Nordic race which is not evidensed in the book. Pontikos seems to be making baseless claims. Second, we see "replicability". The pottery examples and skeletons Kemp uses as proof are museum pieces that anyone can observe for themselves. A similar expedition into the history of the white race would find the same examples of white history. Third, a "declaration of sources". Kemp makes it clear that his research is supported by Pub-Med and other genetic studies which are displayed on his website for all to see. Fourth, the recognition is weak. He is not recognized in his work, because mainstream anthropologists wish to publically deny the existance of race. Others such as Pontikos try in vain to attack his position, but only conclude that it is possible to arrive at a different conclusion. Fifth, is the source partisan or extremist? Contrary to what some would incorrectly conclude, a work that is hosted on a white nationalist site like Stormfront does not make the work itself extremist. The book was originally in printed form, but was copied onto the internet and hosted by Stormfront. Stormfront, a partisan organization, had no hand in writing the book and the book was not written for Stormfront's political ends, so the book itself is non-partisan. This is called the association fallacy. The book merely defines whites and their history and says non-whites are slowly encroaching and outnumbering whites, but never says some races are better than others or propose a racialized state which would make it extremist.-- Dark Tea 23:37, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, you are right, we could also add March of the Giants:
http://www.sitesled.com/members/racialreality/medish/
We are going to make the hell of a page here!. Honestly I am getting tired of this place and I think that Wiki is a big problem. I thought it was a good idea first, but seeing that extreme Neo-Nazis can post with user names and they are not blocked, I conclude that Wiki is a big danger to humanity. Veritas et Severitas 01:54, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I suggest we should work as a team and get dark tea permanently banned from wikipedia and his ip adress so he cant get a new account.
Just show to admin all the racist neo nazi anti semitic propaganda he is trying to push in articles and he will get banned.
Alun I am relying on you or veritas as i dont know how to report people but please report this racist immediately.-- Globe01 16:17, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Are Portuguese, Spanish and Meditteranean people Whites? Their skin colour isn't like the Celts, Slavic, Nordic and Germanic people, and many of them have olive skin. So how can they be White people? -- Fantastic4boy 06:29, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
That is the point: White is a term that Europeans have used to refer to themselves, but they are not white. As to skin pigmentation I have already said it, so-called whites range from different shades of brown to what we might call beige or even pinkish or reddish (In fact they are among the most colorful people on earth. It is interesting that they call others colored). As far as Mediterranean Europeans or any Europeans are concerned I guess they change races during the year a lot:
Take a look at the Spanish prime minister here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Luis_Rodr%C3%ADguez_Zapatero
Then here: http://www.clarin.com/diario/2006/01/07/thumb/t044dh04.jpg
Especially here he might belong to what we could call the "brown race": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:JL_Rodr%C3%ADguez_Zapatero.jpg
Then this guy turns "white" again here: http://www.dw-world.de/image/0,,1146464_4,00.jpg
I guess this guy changes races during the year, he must be some kind of strange creature. In any case, in none of the pictures is he literally "white", like the rest of the people who may call themselves "white". Veritas et Severitas 20:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I am just being sarcastic and making parodies here, looking at the level of some contributors. Still, the same people skin pigmentation can change a lot and no white person is literally "white". Veritas et Severitas 02:02, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
This is what User:Wobble has written me in my talk page. I'm gonna paste and answer it here so all can see: Lukas19 22:00, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to say this here because the talk page for White people is getting a bit confusing. I have not actually disputed what you said about how physists define colour. What I ahve said is that this is irrelevant. White is a colour because that is how people perceive it, how physics defines it is a different and irrelevant subject. You seem to have come to the conclusion that when the term "literally white" is used, somehow this implies or means that only the definition of white that physics uses is relevant. This is not the case. Literal is not a synonym for "scientific". If we had wanted to say this, we would say that people are not "scientifically white". Literal is the opposite of figurative. When we use a term figuratively we are using it by analogy. Literally on the other hand means that we are using a word in it's most understood sense. So actually it is perfectly correct to state that humans are not literally white. Here's what the wikipedia article Literal and figurative language says words in literal expressions denote what they mean according to common or dictionary usage, while words in figurative expressions connote additional layers of meaning. Here's what the OED says about the word literal 1 using or interpreting words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory. [10] So I must say that I think this confusion has been caused by you not actually understanding what the word literally means. Hope this observation clears up the misunderstanding. Alun 16:32, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
This user continues pushing his point of view as if he owned the article. Right now he is in arguments against Psychohistorian, Carwil and me in different places. I am tired of reverting him. Just look at his conduct. Since he and other users with his positions appeared in this article, this article has had a lot of incredible problems. He often just says: Read previous sections and that is it. He seems to be the boss here, which I think fits very well his view of the world. Veritas et Severitas 03:04, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 15 |
Some people here have been insisting that Middle Easterners, Arabs, Jews etc are not white people. I do not have to say and repeat what kind of ideology is linked to that kind of position:
1. US census says they are white.
2. Traditional anthropologists say they are white.
Look at the following links by important traditional anthroplogists:
http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/coonmed/
http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/hootonmed/
I have cut and pasted this part from Hooton:
The Mediterranean Subrace. Probably the name, Mediterranean, is as good as any for a designation of the great subrace of basic, long-headed brunets that constitutes the largest number of Whites
....The definition of this type, based upon very extensive anthropometric surveys of Iran and Iraq, seems to me the most important addition to the knowledge of the contemporary White race that has been made in the last few decades
...There is not much doubt that the eastward extension of straight-nosed Mediterraneans of the Classic type provided the White basis of the early populations in southeastern Asia and Indonesia. They probably were the main carriers of the Aryan language into India at a much later date.
...Negro Africa abounds in mulatto peoples of ancient origin and often of considerable homogeneity. Most of these are tall and slender, and from their tendency to aquiline noses seem to have acquired their White blood from the Arab or Semitic type of the Mediterranean subrace.
And this from Coon:
Our area, from Morocco to Afghanistan, is the homeland and cradle of the Mediterranean race. Mediterraneans are found also in Spain, Portugal, most of Italy, Greece and the Mediterranean islands, and in all these places, as in the Middle East, they form the major genetic element in the local populations. In a dark-skinned and finer-boned form they are also found as the major population element in Pakistan and northern India.
The Sumerians were Mediterraneans skeletally. So were the ancient Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Children of Israel, and the Arabs of the early Islamic period whose skeletons I had the privilege of measuring at Nippur. A Mediterranean is a white man etc.
See also what coon says about civilization (this is obviously addressed to those Nordicists who are always trying to imply that a "Nordic Race" is responsilbe for Western civilization or even Civilization):
The Mediterraneans occupy the center of the stage; their areas of greatest concentration are precisely those where civilization is the oldest. This is to be expected, since it was they who produced it and it, in a sense, that produced them.
Of course we all know that traditional anthropology is out of favour and often in contradiction with modern population genetics, and that the concept of a discrete Mediterranean sub-race no longer holds water. But the concept of a discrete "white" race or "European race" is also in contradiction with population genetics and we are writing an article here about white people as a racial classification.
I have often said what a bad article this is, based on very strange opinions, often those left over by extremist movements like Nazi-Nordicism. It is incredible that in a Wiki article those are the norms being followed.
I will not make any changes myself. I have tried too many times, to be reverted by "some" people. I will just leave this here as additional proof of the quality of this article and the big agenda that it hides.
Veritas et Severitas 05:03, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
.....Yes, but this page is about he usage of `white'! If
Osama Bin Laden (a supposed `Mediterranean' from the Arabian Peninsular) was being described as a criminal suspect, how many people in society would describe him as a "White male in his late 40's"? The issues about Mediterraneans raised (including their form found in India, - people who are almost never seen as white in the UK, regardless of how fair they are) make us revert back to the `who is white?' debate which has been going on for years in the past 6-7 archives of discussion!
My Oxford dictionary idenifies Mediterraneanms as being dark skinned anyway! why are they classed as `white'?? why aren't Japanese classed as white because they are white skinned?
There are very few people anywhere of any race "whose racial bloodlines run pure". Trishm 01:00, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Keep telling yourself that. Saintrotter 18 February 2007
Wow, full of quality and insight. Veritas et Severitas 15:06, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
By the way, you seem to be British. Well perhaps you should know that there are people out there, and very important people, that say that you, the British, are mainly of South Western European (Read Mediterranean) origins. So, if Mediterraneans are not white, and white is supposed to be a race, why are Britons supposed to be "White"?.
Read two recently published books by leading population geneticists:
1. Blood of the Isles, by Bryan Sykes.
2. The Origins of the British, by Stephen Oppenheimer.
Here you have some quotations from the books. Conclusion: Britons are mainly of South Western European Origins, that is of Iberian origins (If you do not know what that is, well of Spanish origins). In my style, I introduce science, but I am getting bored of the street approach of contributors here:
As far as Blood of the Isles is concerned here you have some citations:
The maps and the data in the Scotland paper( See:
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1393742006) have been taken from pages 290 and 292 in the book.
The book is full of interesting stuff. Just some relevant issues:
Page 280.
...the presence of large numbers of Jasmines’s Oceanic clan, says to me that there was a very large-scale movement along the Atlantic see board north from Iberia, beginning as far back as the early Neolithic and perhaps even before that. The number of exact and close matches between the maternal clans of western and northern Iberia and the western half of the Isles is very impressive, much more so than the much poorer matches with continental Europe.
Note: In this case he is not talking of the famous R1b. He is talking of other genetic markers.
Pages 281-82.
The genetic evidence shows that a large proportion of Irish Celts, on both the male and female side, did arrive from Iberia at or the same time as farming reached the Isles.
The connection to Spain is also there in the myth of Brutus………. This too may be the faint echo of the same origin myth as the Milesian Irish and the connection to Iberia is almost as strong in the British regions as it is in Ireland.
Picts….. They are from the same mixture of Iberian and Euroepean Mesolithic ancestry that forms the Pictish/Celtic substructure of the Isles.
Note: The European Mesolithic is also believed to have originated in Iberia. Sykes thinks that most Britons come from Neolithic migrations. Oppenheimer from Mesolithic ones. Both originating in Iberia.
Page 283.
Here again, the strongest signal is a Celtic one, in the form of the clan of Oisin, which dominates the scene all over the Isles. The predominance in every part of the Isles of the Atlantic chromosome (the most frequent in the Oisin clan), with its strong affinities to Iberia, along with other matches and the evidence from the maternal side convinces me that it is from this direction that we must look for the origin of Oisin and the great majority of our Y-chromosomes. The sea routes of the atlantic fringe conveyed both men and women to the Isles.
Note: I think it is clear that Sykes is talking of:
1. Subgroups of R1b. (Atlantic modal haplotype and other subgroups)
2. Maternal DNA.
3. Other matches.
Oppenheimer is more specific about those other matches. He claims that also the E3b and J lineages arrived in Britain from Iberia and also some I lineages (subgroups) that are present mainly in Iberia, etc.
And for the one hundredth time. Apart form using previous published material, Sykes has used his own samples: More than 10.000 samples from all over the British Isles never published before: A ten-year long job. No other genetic study either in the British Isles or in any other country has been so extensive yet.
As far as The Origins of the British, by Oppenheimer is concerned.
1. Huge book: 534 pages. Impossible to go in detail here. I would advise it before Blood of the Isles, because it goes into much more detail.
2. Main ideas.
Celts: He elaborates a lot on this using history, linguistics and, the big new approach, genetics.
Pages: Especially 19-91.
His conclusion: British Celts and British Celtic languages do not come from Central Europe. They come from Spain.
3. British population in general:
They are mainly of South-Western European origin. Exactly of Iberian origins (Spanish origins).
He gives ample genetic evidence, along with historical and archaeological data. The genetic evidence is about different genetic markers, including maternal and paternal DNA.
An exact quotation:
Page 375.
By far the majority of male gene types in the British Isles derive from Iberia, ranging from a low of 59% in Fakenham, Norfolk to highs of 96% in Llangefni, north Wales and 93% Castlerea, Ireland. On average only 30% of gene types in England derive from north-west Europe. Even without dating the earlier waves of north-west European immigration, this invalidates the Anglo-Saxon wipeout theory.
In short, all these new books using genetics in conjunction with historical accounts, archaeology and linguistics, are much more important than most people here seem to think. They will inevitably have a huge impact (they are having it already) about the views on the origins and roots of all British people and according to some people here about their "whiteness".
Both authors are from the University of Oxford and both books have just been published. Veritas et Severitas 03:22, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
How about the Black Irish and indigenous Scandinavians with natural black hair? Are they considered Whites too? -- 203.15.122.35 05:48, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Why were the above comments by Veritas included in the section on the usage of the term `white' in Australia?? The Australian section now looks like a complete muddle! I am from Australia not Britain as Veritas surmised and like I have stated, `white' is not used in the census as an indicator of ethnicity. Regions of Europe are. This is due to the fact that `white' is an opinion based subject, not one based on scientific fact. By the way, I do not deny the British peoples Iberian DNA, but bare in mind that much of Iberian immigration to the British isles pre-dated Moorish occupation as well as African slave importation as well. If the average Australian wishes to use the term `white' to identify what the word literally means, then so be it! It is not a scientific measure anyway. Southern Europeans in Australia would also be considered white if that's what they `looked' like in appearance! Nowadays, the term `Anglo' is becomeing more popular to distinguish Nordics from Meds. Globally most people would use the word `white' to identify an appearance rather than a person's DNA (which is not cosmetically noticible - lol) or their heritage. Be honest, many Mediterraneans do have an appearance distinctively different to Nordics, so if the appearance differs, then why shouldn't the perception?.
It should be made by an anthropologist. Only a person with very nazi and nordicism ideas would have made this article. Why make too long parts about blond and red hair and light eye color. Most of white people have brown eyes and mid-brown to dark brown hair.This article is meaning that if I have brown eyes and dark hair I´m not white. It´s stupid. Hitler, the Nazi leader had black hair, wasn´t he white???? And there are many blond and light eyed people in Southern Europe, for example see a picture of the Spanish Royal Family. It´s ok to put pictures of that red haired and blonde girls, but also put pictures of white people with all kind of features not only the light haired and light eyed. Lithop 03:56, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
But they do not like anthropologists, either traditional ones or genetic anthropologists. They just want to use the article for their propaganda. They prefer the definitions that you can find in highly respected academic circles like Stormfront. This article is dominated from the beginning by Nordicist ideas of people (many of them (not all)from the so-called Anglo-Saxon world) who have been brought up with so much ignorance that some comments are risible. Others just have a clear agenda.
By the way, did you notice again how user Lukas erased the references to Arabs and Jews, although they are clearly cited above by traditional anthropologists?
As to genetics, they like to post those parts that they like and erase those that they do not like. Just follow them. Some users are particularly worried about "losing" the British in their Nordicist fantasies. What else would they have left! Veritas et Severitas 01:28, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
That picture is perfectly representative. I do not include it because I do not know yet how to do it. And Pavarotti, leaving also the pictures that are there now too. So, the picture section would be less biased. Veritas et Severitas 19:18, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
As to Dark t. and other users what can we say? I have said more than once that some (only some I want to leave this clear) Americans, Australians, etc.. think themselves whiter and more European than the Europeans themselves. It may be just because they live in countries that have an intensive history of bigotry and they cannot swallow easily that they are increasingly becoming non-White nations (in my opinion much more interesting for that, but they obviously see it differently). Just travel to any US city. The country is no more "white" than some South American countries, and I could bet my right hand that Uruguay and Argentina are right now "whiter" than the US by all means. It does not matter what their statistics say or how their media want to present them on TV or in the movies. Anyone who knows the country well knows it. Their position is probably one way to steam off the growing inferiority complex of some radical "whites"(because of their view on white and non-white peoples and nations). It must piss them off that some South American or even Muslim countries like Turkey are by all means whiter than their countries and nations. It is sad. They may deserve some understanding. A shoulder to cry on. So they come here with their risible arguments: But these are considered white and those not by my uncle! It sounds like a desperate cry to claim their "whiteness" or their "Europeanness" or God knows what. Anyway, in the case of the Americans, I would go around more cautiously. Some of them seem to ignore to which extent anti-Americanism has often a racist tinge and it does not only come from Arab countries. Have just a look at this fascist site and how Anglo-Americans are portrayed below the Hitler pictures. See:
http://www.thecivicplatform.com/2007/01/
If you cannot open it, I have cut and posted this part:
U.S. is definitely Judeo-Saxon in every sense: culturally, socially, and morally. The old-money W.A.S.P.s and Ashkenazi Jews are also increasingly intermarrying one another, so within a few generations, distinctions may be further blurred than at present.
As the great German intellectual Werner Sombart said: “Americanism is to a great extent distilled Judaism.”
Should we use these spurious and radical views now to claim that Anglo-Americans are not white, because as some people have been insisting here (some Americans, by the way), Jews are not white? Veritas et Severitas 20:28, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, and how about the indigenous Scandinavians and Celtic people that have black hair? They're not White too? Perhaps it is true that some of the users of this article are basing their facts on Nazism and Nordicism ideas of the White race. -- 203.15.122.35 02:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I should force my friend to pose as an example, he is Greek but damn, you would never belive it. When you see his mother or father you wouldn't you belive that they are Greek either. I mean when he told me that he was Greek I was like yeah right the dude is as German as it gets. But nope, he is fully Greek. VERY light blonde hair, blue eyes totaly German looking facial structure and he is tall as hell too, like 195cm something (17years old). I know the picture that I have of mediterraneans isn't correct but I always see 'em looking like Turks, black hair brown eyes short ppl :P. I mean seriously I didn't belive that he was Greek untill he started speaking Greek. Anyway what I'm trying to say is that you can find "extreme whites" everywhere of every European acestry. But then again my gril friend who is German has black hair although she does have blue eyes id belive her more if she said that she was greek than I would my Greek class mate.-- DerMeister 20:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Heres a race map made by an american anthropligist made in 1899. The most interesting and relevant thing is that he shows that people living in certain areas of the british isles are of medditeranean appearance. Im sure most people will be unaware of this so i think it has relevance to the article. It also shows germany is not entirely nordic which is contrary to the stereotype .
race map http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Passing_of_the_Great_Race_-_Map_4.jpg race article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_race
-- Globe01 19:48, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Just two comments:
1. Berbers have always been considered ¨white´by physical anthropology. I do not care about uncle Tom again and the American mental diarrhoea in racial issues, although the US census itself classifies them as ¨white¨¨. So it seems that this mental diarrhoea does not represent Americans officially, but just "some" Americans or others.
2. The lack of reference in the Physical section to dark hair is incredible and should be fixed.
3. The pictures should be fixed and be more representative and less tendentious.
I will not do it myself but I will support other users if they want to do it. Veritas et Severitas 17:42, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
dark tea you racist you quote berbers as being "the miscegenation of the white and black races". You may not agree with that statement but at least et us know by showing us your opinon of the statement.
In terms of black hair, the vast majority of irish and welsh people have black hair and they are considered white. Anthropoligits consider the welsh to be of almost entirely medieterranean [2] appearance yet the welsh are still considered white but some do not consider other mediteranean appearing nations such as italinas to be white.
There is a lot of controversy in the term of applying white to nations, (mainly from historical nordicism and pastpolitical agendasit is stupid, some italians are blond haired and blue eyed, very small numebers of scandinavians have a med appearance yet scandinavians are called a white nation.
No nation is white or non white, merely there are just different rations of white to non white poeple in those nations. -- Globe01 17:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Do not even respond to Dark T. He makes no sense at all. Just look at his/her comments. Since administrators do not have what it takes to block people like that, at least just ignore people with severe mental diarrhoea. Note: He is the guy who said that Hitler would be a good example for the pictures or Stormfronters good contributors here. I think that is about enough for this guy. Anyway, just to uncover this guy once and for all:
1. Dark T. is a troll that defends strange Nazi-like ideas, that are even more extreme than the ones of the Nazis themselves.
2. Or, he/she is someone who hates so-called white people, Jewish people, etc, so much that will do anything to post here racist comments all the time as some kind of strategy for some kind of agenda.
In any case, as said. I propose that you just ignore him/her and keep an eye out for him/her as well in the body of the article.
And about Berber: Yes my friends, Berbers were classified as whites by 20th century main anthropologists and for the Americans that are very interested in this article, the US census classifies them as white (I do not have to give the links again, they are above). That is it. Something else is if we can speak of a discrete white race as was traditionally assumed or not etc. My opinion is 'No", but that applies to all people that wee classified as white, not just to Berbers. And again, uncle Tom's and Aunt Annies opinions are opinions of no concern here, let alone the opinions of Nazi-Nordicists that are an insult to intelligence.
And as to the issue that Berbers are a diverse people:
1. Who are not a diverse people? According to genetic anthropology (science, not aunt Annie again) with the possible exception of some Eskimos and some tribes in the remotest places of the planet, the rest of the peoples are all very diverse peoples indeed.
2 Are Americans, Australians or Brazilians not diverse? Should we say that because of that none of them should be considered "white" or that Americans, etc are not white people.
Anyway, as to some questions here, let us start with the hair section. I will just make a very extremely objective and short presentation. Veritas et Severitas 18:40, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Really, Dark T. here you have again what some people think of Americans:
http://www.thecivicplatform.com/2007/01/
If you cannot open it, I have cut and posted this part:
U.S. is definitely Judeo-Saxon in every sense: culturally, socially, and morally. The old-money W.A.S.P.s and Ashkenazi Jews are also increasingly intermarrying one another, so within a few generations, distinctions may be further blurred than at present.
As the great German intellectual Werner Sombart said: “Americanism is to a great extent distilled Judaism.”
You can also check what "some" Europeans think about Americans in Anti-Americanism.
If you are too lazy to read I will help you cutting and pasting:
Racialism
In the middle of the nineteenth century, the racialist theories of Arthur de Gobineau and others spread through Europe. The presence of blacks and "lower quality" immigrant groups made racialist thinkers discount the potential of the United States. The infinite mixing of America would lead to the ultimate degeneracy. Gobineau said that America was creating "greatest mediocrity in all fields: mediocrity of physical strength, mediocrity of beauty, mediocrity of intellectual capacities - we could almost say nothingness."
There you have one that seems to be one of your favorite authors: Gobineau. I will keep posting the same responses all the time, since you seem to ignore them all the time as well. By the way, as a Californian that you seem to be, to claim that whites do not live side by side with browns and blacks, using your own terminology, in the US and California, is most funny. Go on, I am having a good time. Veritas et Severitas 20:47, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I must admit that I am quite amused by these pictures. I was going to be facetious and insult the pathetic nature of the website (which, BTW, it is inevitable that anyone with common sense would do). Anyhow, just a logical observation/comment about the pictures of the white people you show. Why *these* pictures - why not some kind of population average? Or, better yet, choose a selection of white leaders that white people have historically chosen (you can't tell me that neither Hitler nor Stalin were white - so why discriminate against them. This would seem to be especially immoral and subversive given the phenonenal contributions that they made to the furtherance of whites. What amount famous white imperialists? Why do we choose individuals who are not famous. By the admition of white populations, it must surely be the case that whites would want to be represented by such individuals (their policies, histories, actions, beliefs are inherently racist - just like their political leaders!).
Why these pictures, I am under the impression that they create a false positive impression of the white race. --Betterfaith.
Yes Hitler and Stalin are considered white, but so are considered a few hundreds of millions of people. Unfortunately the term white has been hijacked in such a way by extremists that I cannot understand how people can still use it to classify themselves. There are a lot of people who would be considered white that are ashamed of the term. I am from Europe, and I can tell you that this term is increasingly being used down here almost exclusively in Neo-Nazi circles. But we are here dealing with an article that is supposed to be about a kind of people and some of us are trying to make the best of it, so that at least the terms European or Western Civilization are not hijacked as well by the same people. Veritas et Severitas 20:43, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
User:LSLM insists on putting material about the origin of people from British Isles. I think, in his own mind, this is relevant. However it isnt. The text says "sometimes excluding people from the Balkans, and Mediterranean basin." It means present or near present by basin (hundreds of years). Not thousands of years ago. So even if people from British Isles descend from Med or not, this doesnt mean they are same with CURRENT med. people. Since some or most of Med people today may have descended from elsewhere in the past.
See my comments below and get some basic education on ancestry, genetics and relationships among present populations. Veritas et Severitas 19:17, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
For ex, According to LSLM's logic, black people shouldnt be considered black because all humans descend from Africa.
So there is a time factor here which makes the addition of text about British origins irrelevant in the context of Australia section. Lukas19 21:04, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
This may be worthy of inclusion in the article, as it shows that perceptions of "White" are really social. LSLM also seems to have some sort of POV to push, particularly regarding his insistence that British people are descended from an Iberian refuge, and have a particularly close affinity to Spanish people. Neither Oppenheimer nor Sykes make this claim, they do make claims in support of Barry Cunliffe's ideas regarding a model for a long term cultural and biological relationship between the peoples of the Atlantic facade of Europe, Cunliffe thinks this relationship is very ancient (as long ago as the mesolithic) and survived for a very very long time (because Sea travel was far and away the safest, quickest and easiest way to travel for the vast majority of the time since the last Ice Age ended) he calls this the Long Durée, [4] others have also drawn the conclusion that genetics supports this hypothesis, particularly geneticists from Ireland, who Sykes mentiones in his book. The Longue Durée of Genetic Ancestry: Multiple Genetic Marker Systems and Celtic Origins on the Atlantic Facade of Europe. What neither of these scientists claim is that this relationship extends to the eastern coast of Great Britain. Indeed Oppenheimer makes a good case for a similar long term relationship between the peoples of the east coast of Great Britain (including Orkney and Shetland) and the germanic speaking peoples of Scandinavia and the North Sea coast, his argument is that germanic languages and culture may be as old in the east of Great Britain (including eastern Scotland, he thinks Pictish may have been a precursor to Lallans) as Celtic ones are in the west (ie as old as the neolithic) and that people in the east of Great Britain (English and Scots) are culturally and biologically much more like Scandinavians in the north east of Great Britiain, and much more like Belgians in the south east. So LSLM has distorted this work to support his POV, a POV the book doesn't actually support. He also made this change, but in fact the original wording was far more accurate than LSLM's. Western European mtDNA and Y chromosoms DNA indicates that the vast majority have matrilinear and patrilinear descent from people tha occupied the western European Ice age refuge, but this was not just a Basque Country and Spanish refuge, as LSLM claims. Stephen Oppenheimer describes the refuge thus The refuge of south west Europe was spread either side of the Pyrenees in southern and eastern France, the Basque Country, and other northern coastal parts of Spain such as Galicia and Catalonia. (Oppenheimer p. 103) Whatever POV Lukas wants to push (some brand of Nordicism apparently, from his continual insistence that northern Europeans are different from southern Europeans) European mtDNA and Y chromosome data clearly point to an east-west cline in Europe rather than a north south cline, and there is little evidence of large scale immigration into southern Europe that did not affect northern Europe, this is not to say that none occured, but it is evident that it has not dramatically affected the population. Neolithic expansion seems to have been a combination of cultural diffusion and some small scale population movements, but there is clear evidence of a neolithic (that is Near Eastern) component to the British population, so what small scale intrusion that did occur does seem to have reached the British Isles. There is little evidence of any sort of large scale migration to any part of Europe after the neolithic. Alun 06:23, 19 January 2007 (UTC)The problem came when Mr. Bennett died. His will left all to his beloved wife, Louetta. But his relatives contested the man’s will on the grounds that their long and fruitful marriage had been illegal all along, because Louetta had started life as a Black baby. In a terse opinion, Bennett v. Bennett,1940 South Carolina, (most of which is the above summary), South Carolina Supreme Court Justices Milledge L. Bonham, D. Gordon Baker, E. L. Fishburne, Taylor H. Stukes, and L. D. Lide ruled that over her lifetime, Louetta had become irrevocably White, and they dismissed the will contestation unanimously. [3]
I have not read the book? Well I provide quotes and not opinions. I do not disagree with what you say though, but I just try to address specific issues(in this case the opinions of "some" people in some Anglo-Celtic countries). It is true that this population group, using genetic terminology, is the most common is Western Europe, but it is also true that it is especially common in the British Isles and in the Iberian peninsula. If people from other places came with strange opinions and if I had verifiable information to reveal how ridiculous they were, I would do the same, and that is my opinion, you do not have to agree with it. But this makes no sense anymore. This is not an issue right now. Anyway, as to how to contribute, I respect your opinion but I have my own. Veritas et Severitas 18:05, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Look at the history of the article. Well, just a small detail, but interesting how these "some" people go at it all the time. Dark says that most white people do not have dark hair. So, most white people are supposed to be blond or have red hair. Comments please. Let us see if with a little patience we can unconver all these people once and for all. Veritas et Severitas
Europe is home to 728 million people in 2005 according to the United Nations. The places that you mention are peanuts in comparison, and even in those places, most people are dark haired and certainly most people are neither blond nor red haired, like it or not.
Besides, stop speaking of those places all the time as if it was the cradle of the "white" race. Those places are highly multiracial and badly represent the majority of people who are considered white, although some of them (like you) so badly want to. The fact that you speak of South Africa as a significant place or representative place of white population is ludicrous enough and quite interesting in relation to your view of the world. Veritas et Severitas 16:27, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Lukas has introduced one new picture that was proposed by Wobble, but replacing the Frenchman picture. I think he could have left the Frechman as well, but I think he makes a point: Better to introduce known personalities. I will introduce another that is very interesting: The President of the European Union Comission. The closest thing to a President that the European Union has. Veritas et Severitas 02:05, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Maybe one of the reasons as to why West Asians and North Africans are considered `white' in the U.S. Census and nowhere else in the Western world is based on the fact that America has a pro-Israel government and for their own contentious claims want to include Israelis as white!! Israel even stakes a claim in the Eurovision Song Contest even though it is not even a part of Europe!! It doesn't look good to state ``White means native Europeans and Israelis' now does it!!??
Again, read comments above: Those people are as white are any white, according to physical anthropology and censuses like the US. Your auntie or mine or theirs do not count. But you are right, some people want to use a "racial" term according to different political agendas. thisw is the biggest problem of this article.
And if some people here mean by white what it literally means, like the comment in the Australian section (a white piece of paper is white), then we should start making up a new term, because there are certainly no white people in the world. Even the picture of the pale American woman. Just, look at her shirt, that is white!, certainly not her skin. Speaking of a term that has been appropriated while being a big lie would be stuff for a long discussion though. Veritas et Severitas 16:31, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Britons - reply to Lukas
Many britons do descend from the med Lukas, but the med has not changed genetically much since the last people left the northern spain to go to the british isles in the neolithic, espcecially northern spain and southwestern france.
Perhaps we should add this and mention the specific region of the med basin.
Lukas the point is relevant as the Basques have changed genetically very little and avoided any neolithic input (middle eastern which i think is what you are trying to say makes med people non white). The basques are not considered white however, and they are anthroplogically similar to the welsh who actually have slightly more neolithic than the basques).
Basically we need to mention that britons and irish people are gnetically similar to eh basques on both male and female chromosomes and descend from that region predominantly aswell as keeping the anthroplogical cites of a med appearance in parts of the British isles in order to show the hippocracy of the term white and its fallacy and also to not give off stereotypes about ethnicity that are mentioned in the australian sections (i.e pasty celtic or anglo saxon appearance is what aussies consider white ). That is a very inaccurate stereotype and if we are going to include it in their opinion of white pople we need to let users no that this stereotype is false and present then with real scientific evidence using anthroplogy and genetics. -- Globe01 18:22, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you Globe. The point is that "some" users here have been implying that only true "Nordics" are white and that "Mediterraneans" are not "white" according to their uncles and aunts, and it is so implied in the Australian section. So, the clarification is more than necessary, especially since the people making these claims come from the so-called Anglo-Celtic countries and if they are themselves Anglo-Celts they are likely to be themselves mainly of south western European ancestry without even knowing it. And it is very important because these "some" people think themselves mainly of "Nordic" or north western European ancestry and that is what they are implying all the time with their comments. Well, even if they were, so what? But then, according to Oppenheimer only about 30% of people in England are of north-western European origins, while in the rest of the Isles this proportion is much smaller. He clearly claims that the rest are overwhelmingly of Iberian origins. And Sykes comes to similar conclusions, only he dates the main migrations to the Isles much more recently than Oppenheimer. Then, how do they know? Well, comparing the genetic fingerprint of modern-day Britons and modern-day Iberians, of course, which are very similar, in some cases, as you said, extremely similar. And Iberians are West Mediterraneans, with the Basques having conserved their genetic fingerprint specially unchanged but being, as Oppenheimer also states in his book, a population representative of South Western Europe, that is Iberia (Portugal and Spain). So, "some" people with a clear Nordicist bias in this article from the very beginning, coming from the US, Canada and Australia, just need some basic education on this issue. If people want to insist I can provide exact quotes from the books just published and insert them in the body of the article. There are plenty of them of relevance here. Veritas et Severitas 20:58, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
This article belongs in the Uncyclopedia. This article is sadly obvious. Who, but racist types, think about this kind of thing? Someone has a 'White Emperialist' obsession.
THOSE WHO ARE PUSHING THE IDEA THAT MIDDLE EASTERNERS, INDIANS AND NORTH AFRICANS ARE `WHITE', THEN PLEASE REVERT YOUR DISCUSSUIONS TO THE
Caucasian Race PAGE!!!! Thank you !!
Add this image of Indian polititian Omar Abdullah on the main page since he is an Aryan and looks `whiter' than José Manuel Barroso!!!
http://164.100.24.208/ls/lsmember/13biodata/2.jpg
Once again this happens here all the time because people insist on deleting crucial information. Then we have these responses: I introduced physical anthropologists and how they classified those people as white in the 20th century or how in the US census they are considered white. But one user thought it was not necessary to speak about it so much and deleted it, leaving a short comment. Nothing new. Veritas et Severitas 18:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
So southern Europeans are White people to? Many of them have skin complexion isn't as pale as the Nordic and Celtic people? How can they be Whites?
Why should they be white? why should anyone be white?. Have you really ever seen a person that is white? All people are some sort of brown, sometimes even pinkish, but never white. But some people like to call themselves "white", put it in official documents, associate with Western Culture and with Europeans and others. To call people "white" in itself is a big lie and the result of Eurocentrism, but here we are.See also my response on the bottom. Veritas et Severitas 13:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I have expressed above the interesting American bias in this article by "some" users, especially at the beginning and how they continue to go at it with a clear Nordicist bias and believing themselves almost the only whites in the world or equating White = "Nordic" (Should we say Aryan?) (Nazism was based on Nordicism for those who do not know). I will continue my own private project here highlighting these types of contributions and the place of origins of these users. It seems that after World War II Americans made a great effort to "de-nazify" Germany and they forgot their own backyard, without realizing how contaminated it was, while these "some" users seem to be oblivious of what people with these ideas in Europe often think about the Americans themselves. It can also serve to analyze the strange and twisted approach to "race" by these people, who seem to want to impose it as a world view.
See the following users' latest contributions and the history of the article and their countries of Origin. I will be posting them one by one from now on:
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:GrandpaDoc (This guy removed images of Nacy Pelosi and Jose Manuel Barroso).
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Common_Sense7 (This guy removed Germany, from the US section that said that once they were not considered white along with other Europeans and the Nancy Pelosi picture. Does his common sense represents American common sense?
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Uncle_G (Just look at this user and his comments about a new race): brown people. Look at the history of the article and statements like: all Mexicans are considered brown. (This place is a sociological gold mine).
4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dark_Tichondrias (This user said that Hitler was a good example for the pictures and that stormfronters would be good contributors here and agree that all these positions represent Americans. she also fails to grasp that this article is not about the Americans. There is an article called White Americans for that purpose).
5. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ju66l3r (this user insits on deleteing the fact that white people are not literally "white") Just look at his contributions here and in brown people.
Veritas et Severitas 16:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Comments:
As promised Dark T., to the same arguments that you always repeat, you will get always the same response:
Here you have again what "some" people think of Americans:
http://www.thecivicplatform.com/2007/01/
If you cannot open it, I have cut and posted this part:
U.S. is definitely Judeo-Saxon in every sense: culturally, socially, and morally. The old-money W.A.S.P.s and Ashkenazi Jews are also increasingly intermarrying one another, so within a few generations, distinctions may be further blurred than at present.
As the great German intellectual Werner Sombart said: “Americanism is to a great extent distilled Judaism.”
You can also check what "some" Europeans think about Americans in Anti-Americanism.
If you are too lazy to read I will help you cutting and pasting:
Racialism
In the middle of the nineteenth century, the racialist theories of Arthur de Gobineau and others spread through Europe. The presence of blacks and "lower quality" immigrant groups made racialist thinkers discount the potential of the United States. The infinite mixing of America would lead to the ultimate degeneracy. Gobineau said that America was creating "greatest mediocrity in all fields: mediocrity of physical strength, mediocrity of beauty, mediocrity of intellectual capacities - we could almost say nothingness."
There you have one that seems to be one of your favorite authors: Gobineau. I do not need to mention what a racist charlatan this Gobineau was, but following your own arguments, why should any Americans be considered "white" at all, even if they look ¨white¨? Veritas et Severitas 20:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Then again, why should the rest of the world, and this is a world article, not an American article, consider Americans white at all, following your own premises. Veritas et Severitas 21:46, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, not so much the people I mentioned before or your own rationale. Anyway, you are proposing a double standard, one for the Americans and one for others. That is not just neither acceptable nor reasonable. Veritas et Severitas 22:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I think what you propose is mainly an extremist and marginal point of view, in the same way as I would consider it an extremist and marginal point of view to speak of Americans according to the fascist site above or to Gobineau. I think that our positions are already clear. Veritas et Severitas 03:23, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Are Arabs and ethnic Jews White people? Surely a lot of them have light hair and skin complexion as fair as the Europeans, for example, Paul Newman and Omar Sharif. -- Fantastic4boy 06:32, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that there are no people that are really "white". I have already said it: take a white piece of paper or a white shirt and compare it with anyone. No none is literally "white". We are all some sort of brown, some people may even look pinkish or even reddish, but certainly never "white". It is a Eurocentric term and a misnomer. But physical anthropologists and some countries that like to classify people in races say that they are "white". This reminds me of one case that took place in South Africa during Apartheid and was commented in the news: One judge was convicting a prisoner and referred to him as black, the person said that he did not like to be called black, then the judge said: why don't you like to call yourself black if you are black? The prisoner responded: why do you like to call yourself white if you are "pink"? Veritas et Severitas 13:27, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Added and reverted statement: The term white is a misnomer. Most white people are some kind of brown shade, some may even look pinkish or reddish, but none of them looks literally white. The term is the result of a eurocentric view of race.
First, this statement is better and more accurately stated within the entire rest of the article. The history of the term section describes the source in ancient Greek/Latin for example. To annotate this as simply a "eurocentric view of race" is not established by what is provided and lacks any sourcing. Just an unnecessary addition, but if it's truly warranted, it should be in the section discussing physical traits of White people, like the section called "Light skin", and not in the lead (particularly not the first sentence of the article as it's not useful in introducing the term "White people". ju66l3r 19:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I have already said it: :Do not agree. It is a fact and the article should start indicating this discrepancy. I am putting it back. Veritas et Severitas 19:23, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
As said, due to the fact that it is an important discrepancy with the term itself, it should be at the start of the article. But just to avoid an edit war, I will wait for other users to comment on the best position for this important fact and discrepancy between "white" to refer to people and the real color "white", or the fact that white people are in fact some shade of brown or even may look like other colors like pinkish or reddish but certainly not white, not even albinos. Veritas et Severitas 19:50, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I am putting it back though. After seeing your attitude if the Brown People particle, I think that your arguments are not convincing,. Veritas et Severitas 20:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
You have violated the 3 revert rule, my friend, while you seem to have similar problems with your own point of view in the Brown people article. Veritas et Severitas 22:23, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
The term "White" in the UK never considered Asian Indians, Middle Eastern, and North Africans, but until recently people from India were considered "Whites" by the official US racial classification, and Middle Easterners still are. There are large variations in racial taxonomy across countries. Some taxonomies emphasize ancestry (e.g., US), others ethnicity (UK and Canada), and still others skin color (Brazil). Strictly speaking, these taxonomies, although they overlap in some cases, are not identical. [5]
I have protected the page due to edit-warring on both sides. Please discuss changes to the article first before editing, not just for the sake of the article, but for the sake of everyone sanity, including admins who have to constantly see accusations (factual or not) of misconduct on both sides. In short, just discuss first before editing. -- 210 physicq ( c) 22:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Suggestion: The essence of this text is worth including in the lead, but it makes a horrible first sentence. So why not tweak it and put it second. Disputed version:
Suggested replacement.
-- Carwil 23:31, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Alun 18:19, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm totally uninterested in these electromagnetic and "what is a color?" arguments, though I invite you to have them with the editors of white and color. Back in the world of describing people, Lukas has made one point in this long discussion:
To respond, yes, Europeans are capable of making color distinctions, and perhaps even reasonably describing people's skin as white, and extending that description to them as a whole. The Greeks quoted in the article did it, so do many people we all know. This "white" is a quality that disappears when one gets a suntan or a sunburn or jaundice. However, it is not what "white people" in the article refers to. No one is out of the racial, legal, societal etc. category of white people because they have a sunburn. Millions are included in the racial, legal, societal etc. category of white people despite the fact that their skin is darker than most Japanese people. In fact, the physical perception is probably not itself notable, but even if it were, it belongs as White (human skin color), with none of the cultural, historical and other material discussed here. Now the fact that people who's skin is white to some observers are linked in a social category to millions of others in the category of "white people" is a social fact, and it's a social fact that emerged in Europe and in colonies administered by Europe as a way of defining race (thus "emerged from a racialized, European historical context") So here's one last revision for y'all to chew on.
I'm not actually wedded to "misnomer", so here's another try. But I think this is as far as I can go, so further watering down will require a third editor's opinion. Lukas, please take your "electromagnetic" misnomer concern to color metaphors for race and stop blocking consensus here about a side issue.
-- Carwil 01:40, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Here's my two penneth, it should not address "colour" but the amount of pigmentation, this is more accurate and can be explained by "degree" of pigmentation.
I'm going to post an RfC, and feel neutral about the color list/pigmentation text, but quite strongly about the cultural context of extension, and feel that avoiding the word literal for Lukas' reasons is just plain silly. Nonetheless, here are three proposed options. Alun, could you indicate whether 2 is acceptable, or amend it to make it so. Lukas, indicate whether 3 is acceptable, or you insist on 4 or 5. I would prefer 1 or 2, would muddle through with 3, so long as we are clear the vast majority are not perceived as white in the skin color section, and would object strongly to 4 or 5.-- Carwil 21:32, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
If you want votes I vote for number 1, of course. Veritas et Severitas 01:16, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
People judge color based on comparison and context so that what is one color in one situation or context is another color in a different context or situation. I remember a case of a light skinned self described "black" person who went to Africa and was universally called "white" by Africans. I remember seeing a TV documentary on current African immigration to Holland and one African women said that when she got to Holland she was shocked "because they really were white!" It is all a matter of compared to what. WAS 4.250 14:58, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Veritas et Severitas makes very good points, we should take their advice and change the article for the better. -- Margrave1206 23:24, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
March of the Titans either found here [http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/index.htm white people] #1 or here white people #2 is a great source for white history that has not been rejected. He cites sources, so it meets the verifiability requirement for inclusion. Sure, Dienekes Pontikos says he's wrong but let's examine Pontikos' arguments against Kemp. Pontikos first begins with ad hominems about Kemp being a "Nordicist" which are logically irrelevent to Kemp's arguments. Then, Pontikos claims other people have interpreted the genetics differently. Similarly, Pontikos claims the ancient artwork could be interpreted differently. Stewart also claims Kemp is wrong, but his arguments are merely unreferenced statements. It is clear that although people disagree with Kemp, they do not refute Kemp, so the website does is not rejected on those grounds.-- Dark Tea 23:37, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
March of the Titans either found [http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/index.htm white people] #1 or here white people #2 is a great source for white history that meets Wikipedias policy on being a reliable source. First, we must examine "attributability". Even though Pontikos claims he's a Nordicist, what does that mean and does he have any evidence? His publication did not grade some races as less and some as higher which would be a characteristic of racism. Surely, just stating a hypothesis that southern Europeans miscegenated with tha non-white races does not constitute Nordicism in itself. Nordicism would be a belief in the superiority of the Nordic race which is not evidensed in the book. Pontikos seems to be making baseless claims. Second, we see "replicability". The pottery examples and skeletons Kemp uses as proof are museum pieces that anyone can observe for themselves. A similar expedition into the history of the white race would find the same examples of white history. Third, a "declaration of sources". Kemp makes it clear that his research is supported by Pub-Med and other genetic studies which are displayed on his website for all to see. Fourth, the recognition is weak. He is not recognized in his work, because mainstream anthropologists wish to publically deny the existance of race. Others such as Pontikos try in vain to attack his position, but only conclude that it is possible to arrive at a different conclusion. Fifth, is the source partisan or extremist? Contrary to what some would incorrectly conclude, a work that is hosted on a white nationalist site like Stormfront does not make the work itself extremist. The book was originally in printed form, but was copied onto the internet and hosted by Stormfront. Stormfront, a partisan organization, had no hand in writing the book and the book was not written for Stormfront's political ends, so the book itself is non-partisan. This is called the association fallacy. The book merely defines whites and their history and says non-whites are slowly encroaching and outnumbering whites, but never says some races are better than others or propose a racialized state which would make it extremist.-- Dark Tea 23:37, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, you are right, we could also add March of the Giants:
http://www.sitesled.com/members/racialreality/medish/
We are going to make the hell of a page here!. Honestly I am getting tired of this place and I think that Wiki is a big problem. I thought it was a good idea first, but seeing that extreme Neo-Nazis can post with user names and they are not blocked, I conclude that Wiki is a big danger to humanity. Veritas et Severitas 01:54, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I suggest we should work as a team and get dark tea permanently banned from wikipedia and his ip adress so he cant get a new account.
Just show to admin all the racist neo nazi anti semitic propaganda he is trying to push in articles and he will get banned.
Alun I am relying on you or veritas as i dont know how to report people but please report this racist immediately.-- Globe01 16:17, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Are Portuguese, Spanish and Meditteranean people Whites? Their skin colour isn't like the Celts, Slavic, Nordic and Germanic people, and many of them have olive skin. So how can they be White people? -- Fantastic4boy 06:29, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
That is the point: White is a term that Europeans have used to refer to themselves, but they are not white. As to skin pigmentation I have already said it, so-called whites range from different shades of brown to what we might call beige or even pinkish or reddish (In fact they are among the most colorful people on earth. It is interesting that they call others colored). As far as Mediterranean Europeans or any Europeans are concerned I guess they change races during the year a lot:
Take a look at the Spanish prime minister here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Luis_Rodr%C3%ADguez_Zapatero
Then here: http://www.clarin.com/diario/2006/01/07/thumb/t044dh04.jpg
Especially here he might belong to what we could call the "brown race": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:JL_Rodr%C3%ADguez_Zapatero.jpg
Then this guy turns "white" again here: http://www.dw-world.de/image/0,,1146464_4,00.jpg
I guess this guy changes races during the year, he must be some kind of strange creature. In any case, in none of the pictures is he literally "white", like the rest of the people who may call themselves "white". Veritas et Severitas 20:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I am just being sarcastic and making parodies here, looking at the level of some contributors. Still, the same people skin pigmentation can change a lot and no white person is literally "white". Veritas et Severitas 02:02, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
This is what User:Wobble has written me in my talk page. I'm gonna paste and answer it here so all can see: Lukas19 22:00, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to say this here because the talk page for White people is getting a bit confusing. I have not actually disputed what you said about how physists define colour. What I ahve said is that this is irrelevant. White is a colour because that is how people perceive it, how physics defines it is a different and irrelevant subject. You seem to have come to the conclusion that when the term "literally white" is used, somehow this implies or means that only the definition of white that physics uses is relevant. This is not the case. Literal is not a synonym for "scientific". If we had wanted to say this, we would say that people are not "scientifically white". Literal is the opposite of figurative. When we use a term figuratively we are using it by analogy. Literally on the other hand means that we are using a word in it's most understood sense. So actually it is perfectly correct to state that humans are not literally white. Here's what the wikipedia article Literal and figurative language says words in literal expressions denote what they mean according to common or dictionary usage, while words in figurative expressions connote additional layers of meaning. Here's what the OED says about the word literal 1 using or interpreting words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory. [10] So I must say that I think this confusion has been caused by you not actually understanding what the word literally means. Hope this observation clears up the misunderstanding. Alun 16:32, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
This user continues pushing his point of view as if he owned the article. Right now he is in arguments against Psychohistorian, Carwil and me in different places. I am tired of reverting him. Just look at his conduct. Since he and other users with his positions appeared in this article, this article has had a lot of incredible problems. He often just says: Read previous sections and that is it. He seems to be the boss here, which I think fits very well his view of the world. Veritas et Severitas 03:04, 18 February 2007 (UTC)