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1) Pic will be restored. The women is clearly white. I dont see any reason why she should be deleted.
2) Intro about Germanic people will be restored. Some Eastern Europeans and Southern Europeans werent always accepted as white. See White_American. Intro says meaning of white changes from place to place and from time to time. This is true. However, Germanic people have always been called white. This is also true. Also, note that, even today some Southern Europeans may not be accepted as white. See usage of Wog in Australia.
3) Dark hair section will be deleted. Phsycal Traits talks about traits associated with white people. For ex, Blond is associated with white people because it's very rare among non-whites. However dark hair is found among everyone. So including that is redundant. It's extra reduntant because the hair colour map makes it clear that the majority of people in Europe has non-light coloured hair. Lukas19 15:20, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Added a history of the term section and broke out Europe and United Kingdom/Ireland into separate sections, made discussion of Black Irish, and British surnames that use White. Minor fix: "besides" as it was used is exclusive, think it should have been "as well as Norwegians..." but I changed the phrasing completely.
I think the hair and eye color section could bear to mention brown and black hair and eyes as well as the lighter ones, but it is not as significant since all kinds of people can have dark hair and eyes.
-- Fourdee 08:20, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I had to replace the image of the Swedish woman because I realized the license on the picture was cc-by-nd which apparently is not accepted by Wikipedia. I found another good image, of a pale redhead, showing the unique features found in the white population and its license is cc-by (wikipedia acceptable). I will continue searching for good professional quality images for this article but I think this one does the job very well. Fourdee 11:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
OK, Fourdee. I will try and understand that we come from different places and that maybe some leanings that are considered one thing in Europe are more acceptable in America.
So, I will try and be constructive:
1. Picture: the picture is fine. But is it representative of all whites? We know that most whites do not look like that. So, why don't we show a set of images, instead of one, with different individuals that represent more or less the different types among whites?
2. As some user said, this is about people, not about what white people have and non-whites do not. It is clear that most whites have dark hair, so I think we should reintroduce that part and I think most reasonable people will agree.
3. About races in America. They are much more mixed than the statement implies:
A) African Americans have an average of about 20% white admixture.
B) As we all know Hispanic is not a race, but a group of people who speak Spanish. Actually the article that is used in the statement says:
From the genetic perspective, Hispanics generally represent a differential mixture of European, Native American and African ancestry. Our sample was of a single location in Texas and was composed of Mexican Americans.
c) Whites have also some degree of Native American and African ancestry.
I think that most reasonable people will agree that these comments have to be introduced in order to clarify that part. I will do it.
Since the genetic issue has been brought up, I will also introduce the Macdonalds' hapmap.
And I apologize for my comments. I will try and understand other points of view, although they may look strange in my culture. Veritas et Severitas 15:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Usere Lukas deletes changes tht have been agreed here, for example dark hair. I hopte that he does not delte them again. I want be cooperative but if unreasoanble conduct is engaged I think we should just report it. 65.11.163.243 16:24, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
User lukas is making changes again:
1. About Germanic people.
2. About dark hair being removed.
3. Deleting links like the macdonalds hpamap.
I will wait for comments. Then I will consider reporting his attitude. Veritas et Severitas 16:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
1. Wiki cannot be used as a reference. Your Germanic insistence is strange point of view pushing. Besides, Germanic is a linguistic group not a race. Besides, since the term white has social connotation is the US, Germans, Irish and others were not considered white at the beginning either. In any case, I do not think that engaging in this type of conversation is necessary. Most people will agree with something like this: European people are considered white. You can leave that, but not POV pushing controversial statements.
2. Dark hair is the most common. It should be there and other users have said it here. If you want another version go ahead and write it yourself, but you cannot try and eliminate dark hair completely.
3. The Hapmap is a reputable source. My interpretation is correct and even a blind person can see it.
I will now leave a very simple and short sentence about dark hair that can be expanded. As to the other issues and this I will wait for comments from other users. I will try and be constructive and I hope that we can all try and be objective, without letting subjective ideology in. I will not report anything yet. Veritas et Severitas 16:39, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
As said, I will not comment on you because you will always say the same things. I will wait for other users, then probably I will report your extreme POV pushing that must be visible even to a blind person. Veritas et Severitas 16:56, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
User Lukas is deleting the Hapmap and my interpretation.
I say that the Hapmap shows that the same Y-Cromosome and Mtdna (the genetic markers passed down from father to son and from mother to children) genetic population groups occur among people who have been classified in different races: black, white, Asian, etc.
Is my interpretation right or wrong?
Here is the Hapmap: http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf
Veritas et Severitas 17:58, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, I do not agree. The Hapmap is a good one, very recent and from 2004. Let us see other opinions though. Veritas et Severitas 00:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
This is not about deconstructing anything. I think the map is as clear as written in black and white. Let us just see other opinions though. Veritas et Severitas 01:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I have often said that a lot of Middle Easterners and North Africans are white and people continue erasing those comments.
1. Those countries are to some degree also multiracial, but there are many people who are of course white. Istambul, for example, is in fact whiter than any US city and that many European cities. And the same could be said of areas in Northern Africa.
2. The US census clearly classifies them as white.
3. A lot of people in the US are not white, but those who are are recognized as such. Would it be accurate to say that Americans are not white because many are not, or that all Californians are not white because many are not. This is a worrying tendency that some people have here: They apply a double standard. They discriminate white people in some places and not in others. Veritas et Severitas 01:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I did not blanck anything. There were some technical problems. some of my contributions did not come up either. ~~
Are Albinos White people too? Surely, they have light blond hair and very fair complexion like those of Northern Europeans.
The structure of the article is supossed to mean, to me, that if I´m not light-eyed and blond I´m not white. Light eye color is not exclusive of whites. How about people who are 100% European and have dark brown eyes and black hair?? How about people who are mixed race and have green or blue eyes?? Most of white people have brown eyes and dark hair. If only the blond and light eyed are white, about 2% of the world´s population is white :S Why many people say that Southern Europeans aren´t white??? cause most of them aren´t blond and blue-eyed??? It´s stupid. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lithop ( talk • contribs) 19:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC).
I have no puppets. I do not need to hide. I hope that administrators can finally see what kind of contributor you are and how you are constantly causing problems. Veritas et Severitas 20:47, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I took a look at the pictures given at the exclusive club section and I personally find it contradicting that the writers. It seems that the photos have shown a number of them with fair complexion like Europeans. However, strangely enough, the true origin of this people cannot be traced back - I wonder where their ancestors are really from: Turkey? Macedonia? Russia? - if not for Greece. Who would vote Pashtuns and Kalashas for Whites and who? Should we stick to the fact that "seeing is believe" or do you still need to cite sources as reference? -- 211.24.155.43 15:54, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I personally find it strange that the Bai of China be part of the White race. Unlike the Pashtuns and Kalasha of Chitral, these people don't even look White after taking a look at the photos. Besides, there is no description of the skin and hair colour as well as the physical features that would them otherwise to be Whites. -- 219.94.124.102 15:55, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Do we need one? We've got enough pics I think. Lukas19 20:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you P.Historian. The systematic bias in this article is outrageous (And it is not only US, it is much more than that). See the edits that I am doing and that Fourdeen is deleting. I do not delete things now because they continue posting the same things over and over again, so I am just clarifying them. It seems 6that some people here have never heard of systematic bias: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias. Veritas et Severitas 23:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Stop pesting my persoanl page, Fourdeen. Veritas et Severitas 23:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I have reported you Fourdenn. Veritas et Severitas 23:36, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I thought it was good to include the images, especially of those of Lierbeman and Emeril especially in Emeril's case in Australia. Down here in Australia where I am, many people still have that 1920s Nordicist view and do not consider Mediterraneans as `white'. Here, I seem to notice that since we don't have a large cross section of the world commulnity in our 20+ million population, anyone who is a shade darker than pasty will have the potential to have their ethnicity questioned. Not only are Mediterraneans not considered `white' in this country, they are also not considered Australian. `Australian' is used to identify a person of Anglo-Saxon, Nordic, Celtic or Germanic ancestry. People not of these origins are also told not to think that they are Australian either.
In the Gallery, we could include images of Kate Beckinsale (1/8 Burmese) and Peter Ustinov (Part Ethiopian ancestry) and state that they would normally be classed as white by popular international definitions, but some white nationalists would exclude them due to knowledge of them having some mixed race ancestry.
Try and use reliable sources, Emcee Lynx is not one. I've attributed his assertions for now, but they should be replaced with something more academic. - Francis Tyers · 08:44, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
This Marginal Whites gallery seems like little more than POV. It should go. Not a dog 14:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I've removed it. Not a dog 17:02, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Just noticed the following in your edit comments Lukas, minor issues but worth sorting out.
As to the light eyes I'd be very curious to see a map of the white population of the US by eye color. My own impression is that in my state (Oregon) it is somewhere around 75% of whites with blue or green eyes, but in the predominantly Irish places it's much much lower - like the 20% range I'm guessing. I don't think anyone collects statistics like that on the US, even though it would be very easy from driver's license records, because it is considered politically incorrect, but it would be a fascinating map - especially if it included only the white population.
1) clarity; 2) internal consistency (reverted version is not consistent with itself). Care to discuss this so we can work together to address these issues? Thanks! dr.ef.tymac 19:32, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Follow-up: Ok for starters, I originally moved OED to the beginning because it is a respected authority on basic English usage. As far as I can see, no one has yet contested that, and it appears to be one of the few points of enduring consensus. dr.ef.tymac 19:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
1) "In basic English usage, White people (also white race or whites) are "... a human group having light-coloured skin, especially of European ancestry."
In encyclopedic articles, the opening sentence should say what a term is, not what it denotes.
2)"The term has been applied with varying degrees of formality, consistency, and analytic rigor based on sociological, cultural, political, medical, linguistic and legal analysis." The sentence should say "has been applied" instead of "is applied" because the article is about all uses of the term throughout history, not just today. As for the words between "rigor" and "sociological", perhaps it should say "in terms of" or "in relation to" instead of "based on", depending on what the sentence is actually supposed to convey. However, the phrase "to many different contexts, including" is too wordy and confusing. Spylab 19:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
This section is for some traits which are associated with Whites because, they are either quite rare or non-existant among non-white populations. We dont need black or brown hair sections since it is obvious that many whites have these colour of hairs. And maps also make this clear... Lukas19 20:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Lukas why have you deleted the section on black hair and brown hair and changed the origin date of r1b from 35000 years ago (see the national genogeaphic) to 10000bc? Lukas blonde hair and red hair are not exclusive to people of white caucasian ancestry, some australian aborigines have blonde hair and some other indian ocean and pacific ocean islanders have that. Some North African berbers have blonde hair, as do some lebanese people, some middle easteners have red hair. We should bring back black and brown hair as most white people have that hair colour in Ireland, Wales, Scotland , Austria, Switzerland etc and again blonde hair is not exclusive to euopean whites or red hair. On your logic we should delete brown eyes from white people as it is not exclusive to white people. Stop making changes without consultation lukas. -- Globe01 15:27, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
try this r1b link for more info on it and sources on r1b. The vast majority of white people in the British ISles fro example have black or brown hair so excluding black hair from the article makes it seem as though the vast majority of people from the British Isles are not white.-- Globe01 16:39, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Regarding this [8] edit, I can add counter arguments to this:
Critiquing this line of thinking, molecular anthropologist Jonathan Marks notes that the races themselves are "an assertion of qualitative geographical distinctions ... [which] is not natural, not objective, not value-neutral, not scientific, and not being inferred from the data." Further, the use of genetic markers is "subtly redefining race yet again" by "a very careful look at the very small amount of genetic variation that has a major geographical component." This requires a number of arbitrary decisions causing "an epistemological problem" of circular reasoning because this selection is not genetic, but cultural.
However,
It has recently been demonstrated in several studies that to a large extent, without prior knowledge of individual origins, the geographic ancestries of individuals can be inferred from genetic markers.....In one of the most extensive of these studies to date, considering 1,056 individuals from 52 human populations, with each individual genotyped for 377 autosomal microsatellite markers, we found that individuals could be partitioned into six main genetic clusters, five of which corresponded to Africa, Europe and the part of Asia south and west of the Himalayas, East Asia, Oceania, and the Americas. [9]
Also Jonathan Marks's claim that there is small amount of genetic variation that has a major geographical component dates back to Richard Lewontin, who argued in a 1972 paper that human races have no taxonomic value because there exists more variation within racial groups than between them. Indeed, some researchers report the variation between racial groups (measured by Sewall Wright's population structure statistic FST) accounts for as little as 5-7% of human genetic variation.
However, most geneticists now recognize that low FST values does not indicate whether or not races exist among humans because of technical limitations of FST (Edwards, 2003), see Lewontin's Fallacy.
A. W. F. Edwards claimed in 2003 that Lewontin's conclusion is unwarranted because the argument ignores the fact that most of the information that distinguishes populations is hidden in the correlation structure of the data and not simply in the variation of the individual factors. [1] While it makes Lewontin's argument unwarranted, it does not address whether or not there are, in fact, races among humans, see Lewontin's Fallacy.
And I can add more. But there are also counter arguments to them. So it'll get too long. This discussions already take place in Race, Genetic views on race and Race and multilocus allele clusters. So I will delete the latest addition. But the study on USA will remain because: i) it answers to Census claims: The 2000 United States Census, speaking of race categories, states, "They generally reflect a social definition of race recognized in this country. They do not conform to any biological, anthropological or genetic criteria." and numerous other social construction arguments throughout the article. ii)Whites are mentioned directly. So if you got anything which specifically mentions whites add it, but I'll delete this one.... Lukas19 01:03, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
And as Marks is in direct response to LeRoi's article (which you've added now), I'm replacing it.-- Carwil 02:04, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Old Text...
Problems...
Let's use the source, or at least the scientists' summary [10] They note: "this variation contributes between 25 percent and 38 percent of the range of skin color in this [an African-American and an African-Caribbean population with recent mixture] population" (press release) and "SLC24A5 explains between 25 and 38% of the European-African difference in skin melanin index." (article) So, it's not the skin-whitening mutation, but one of a larger set.
Second, per SLC24A5, this is a one base-pair mutation ("differ in only one nucleotide"). Such a mutation is likely to appear multiple times, unlikely to spread from one individual to all of the European population in the time available, and appears elsewhere (and thus may have preceded the "exodus".
In short, the Washington Post is weaving a narrative irrelevant to, and unlikely to explain the data: a 'single individual, after the first human exodus from Africa are apocryphal and unsupported by the research paper itself. First isn't accurate as multiple human and hominid migrations spread through Eurasia, And exodus itself (implying bondage in Africa), thrived, and give rise to are all POV. None of "the world's races" can be said to have "arisen" until millennia later, when they were named and their history created after the fact.
New Text...
-- Carwil 03:03, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
These maps are very interesting. However, is it possible that these maps can have national borders included just to get a clearer understanding of hair and eye colouring frequencies in certain countries. For example, Northeastern Italy has an eye colouring frequency of 50% of the population but it is hard to tell where these frequencies stop with no national borders. - 24/12/06 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Galati ( talk • contribs) 15:56, 24 December 2006 (UTC).
People please read what is written before making absurd claim:
"It has recently been demonstrated in several studies that to a large extent, without prior knowledge of individual origins, the geographic ancestries of individuals can be inferred from genetic markers [1–5]. In one of the most extensive of these studies to date, considering 1,056 individuals from 52 human populations, with each individual genotyped for 377 autosomal microsatellite markers, we found that individuals could be partitioned into six main genetic clusters, five of which corresponded to Africa, Europe and the part of Asia south and west of the Himalayas, East Asia, Oceania, and the Americas [3]. Some individuals from boundary locations between these regions were inferred to have partial ancestry in the clusters that corresponded to both sides of the boundary. In many cases, subclusters that corresponded to individual populations or to subsets of populations were also identified." [11]
So while whites cluster with other non-white caucasoids, there are also subclusters within caucasoid population. Try to think whites as a subset of Caucasoids and Caucasoids as a subset of Humans. If we get samples from mammals, I'm sure we can also make 1 cluster of humans. That doesnt mean there can be no subclusters... Lukas19 18:48, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
The < vs. > was totally my mis-keying as the rest of the article copied cleanly from PDF. Don't panic.-- Carwil 02:14, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
On (5): I don't discount subclustering, but instead suggest that we could have 10, 100, or 1000 of them. Subclustering does, however, help get rid of the problem of Euro-African "mixing", by looking for clusters within the predominantly Eurasian regions without reference to the other regions.
On (4):In Rosenberg et al. the 7-region AMOVA is not the result of a consistent statistical search (if it were, they would have subclustered the other four clusters as well), but part of their confirmation that there is "within-[continental] population component of genetic variation, estimated here as 93 to 95% (Table 1), accounts for most of human genetic diversity." This is exactly the point of Lewontin's much disputed (on this page) research. If Europe were part of a "natural" 7-region set (a statistical effect not decided beforehand), it would come by making K=7 in their main analysis. Rather, they chose to use the subclusters to reinforce the point made by previous researchers (starting in their citations with Lewontin) that each group contains more diversity within it than it differs from others in.
Note also that the three part division of Eurasia is inconsistent between random runs and does not achieve the statistical coherence they seek (read R. et al. descriptions of "similarity coefficients" in the subclustering), and must be added to a fourth "part", the Kalash.
More importantly, Rosenberg provides a better clarification of what types of variation we are talking about between clusters. Since we agree on it as a valid source, I'm adding their clarity to the page.-- Carwil 02:14, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
There is no "white race" thus the term should be removed from the article.
-- Margrave1206 20:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
In the "The Races of Europe" of 1939, the Nordic race is considered a mixture of the Mediterranean race. So Nordic people are mixed. Also Europe is make of different racial groups, ergo one cannot have a race inside of a race. This would mean there is no white race, perhaps there is a white race in the USA where people are so mixed they are unsure of their ancestry. However for those who have knowledge of science and history know better. There is no black race, or any other race via color category. The only place where this term white race seemed to be used would be neo-nazi sites or white nationalist sites. Where is the proof a white race exist? Don't lump Europeans into your personal preference. This article needs is far to bias.
Also according the Ripley Europeans are placed into three main races. Teutonic, Mediterranean, and Alpine.
If you use William Z. Ripley, The Races of Europe: A Sociological Study (New York: D. Appleton and Co., 1899), as a referance.
-- Margrave1206 18:14, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
The Races of Europe is a fossil, completely outdated. Especially Ripley's version, which dates back to the 19th century! FilipeS 18:42, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Something should be written on the perception of `white' in South Africa. As well as Europeans; Lebanese, Turks and Iranians were also classed as `white' during the apartheid period.
I added this text because the average reader will think that Leroi is talking about alleles when he's not.
-- Carwil 02:34, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
This section needs to be ousted it has no reliable citations. Again we have another bias American article. "The origin of the term white in terms of race and ethnicity is somewhat unclear. One early use of the term appears in the Amherst Papyri, which were scrolls written in ancient Ptolemaic Greek. It contained the use of Black and White in reference to human skin color." -- Margrave1206 04:14, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Our government/society– makes me feel guilty because I do not want to subject my children to feel they are a minority or of less importance. I feel the need to raise them around a majority of kids and people that favor their charteristics. Is this wrong??? I would like my children to seek others that look like they do for a husband or a wife. If I raise them in an area that has a majority of blacks or hispanics their choice would be limited. Once again is this wrong. Because it feel right. 70.240.241.13 04:23, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
I am not a registered user and i would appreciate if someone who is could add the following about Australia. `White' is not a metaphor used in the census to identify people by ethnicity. Country of birth and ethnic origin is. Europe is divided into categories of `Northern Europe', `Southern Europe' and 'Eastern Europe'. In regards to the opinion of Southern Europeans, The `White Australia policy' did accept larger numbers of them after the second world war. Some people in Australia may not consider them as white if they look dark, but this is a social thing, not a government institution classification. This, however I notice is the same in British society as in Britain, people tend not to consider dark Mediterraneans as white either. There have been instances where Southern Europeans have experienced racism because they have been mistaken for Middle-Easterners or even South Asians (Mediterranean elements can exist among Indo-Aryans). Why Are Pashtuns and Kalasha listed in the Links section? They would be classed as Asians in the UK!
For the above commentary: The problem with the opinions of "some people" is that they derived it mainly from 19th and 20th century Nordicism. Nordicism is in evident decline. The theories that it was based on are all a disaster and the result of much wishful thinking. It started to arise in 17th century Europe closely linked to Protestantism and as a reaction of some Northern Europeans to counter the inferiority complex that they had in relation to Southern Europeans for obvious historical reasons: The real basis for European (what could be called "white" civilization) are in fact in the Mediterranean: In Greece, in Rome and in Judea (Christianity): the Greek and Roman civilizations being a fundamental pillar, Rome being a fundamental tool in the propagation of Christianity in Western Europe and Greece in Eastern Europe. On top of that, at the dawn of the Modern Age (XV and XVI) centuries, it was Southern Europeans again (now the Spanish and the Portuguese) who dominated Europe itself and the European Expansion in the world: Discovery of America, Circumnavigation of the Earth, first truly global Empires, etc. England embraced Nordicism as a political tool when Henry VIII separated the Church of England from Rome and has had an important influence in Anglo-Saxon countries since then. Today Nordicism is not only in evident decline, but increasingly restricted to very suspicious circles, still some people here seem to have a keen interest in expressing their opinions in this article as if radical positions are worthy of an Encyclopeadia. The climax of Nordicism lies in the equations: 1. White = Western civilization. 2. Nordics are whiter, therefore Nordics are more responsible for Western civilization. End result: Appropriation of Western and European civilization and of the heritage of Mediterranean Europe. The game is old and although no intelligent people take them seriously anymore they are especially active in Internet.
In fact they find themselves in constant contradictions: They would obviously say that Jesus and the Apostles are white, but then they would say that Jews are not white. They would obviously count Aristotle, Socrates, Caesar and an extremely long list of Southern Europeans as white, but then some would say that Greeks and Mediterraneans are not white etc. In short, it all has to do with the appropriation game that I mentioned above.
If you you want to know more about the subject you can try the following books: Tree of Hate: by Philip Wayne Powell. Bryan Sykes also deals with this problem in Blood of the Isles (in the US for sale as Saxons, Vikings and Celts). Veritas et Severitas 19:14, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Well if only people with blond hair and blue eyes are to be considered white, then whites are a minority among Europeans and Western and European civilization should not be linked with the term white (apart from the fact of considering different members of a family in different races: my father and my sister are white then, me and my mother not).
Anyway, sometimes in this article I wonder what idea people have of Europeans. Here you have the pictures of all the members of the European parliament by country. Serve yourselves and count the blond types. You can start directly by Sweden, where they are all supposed to be blond in some people's mind.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/members/public.do?language=en
Even taking into account some probable artificial blondes, the picture is desolate for what we can call here blondists. We have two possibilities:
1. Blonds are a small minority among Europeans.
2. Blonds are not very good at politics.
I would go for the first one.
Veritas et Severitas 14:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Um, how many Europeans have two hair colors and/or eye colors? Can someone rephrase; inserting "[races]" after humans seems like putting words in Frost's mouth. "[Groups]", "[communities]", "[ethnic groups]" are probably all wrong. Can someone rephrase.-- Carwil 00:40, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree. See if you can do something about it. Veritas et Severitas 02:06, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I think it is good. Veritas et Severitas 14:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Some user has already made reference to the Australian section. It is interesteing to see commnents like that and how most people here are happy with a definition based on ¨some people¨, using racial slurs like wog and so on. I am not surprised.
I do not agree with this kind of approach, which is not worthy of this place, but since this type of contribution seems ok for people here I will make equivalent contributions.
The first one is in the US section:
Some white people are regarded as second class whites in US society. See usage of Redneck, White Trash or Hillbilly. Veritas et Severitas 22:15, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I have made another contribution in the Australian section. I will continue another time. The English language seems to be incredibly rich in this type of slurs. Veritas et Severitas 22:55, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
add images of Luciano Pavarotti to keep everyone's mouth shut on the main page!!!
We should go about very carefully with users like Lukas and others. Their positions, if you follow them need no comment. Then he is constantly making use of administrators to attack other users here. He has already done the same with a lot of users in this article, including me in the past, to get read here of all people who do not go along with his view of the world and his view of white people and races.
Just see this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Wobble
In short, I think he is manipulating this place. We all have said that all opinions are accepted here. OK, Neo-Nazis have been participating in this article from the beginning and this fact should be known by everyone who comes around here. And attention, Neo-Nazi is not an insult, it is the objective description of an ideology. They have been using all types of tactics to burn out good-faith contributors and take control of the article over and over again. I consider this to be very serious. I hope there are good-faith people here who can see the forest behind the trees. Veritas et Severitas 03:43, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I never said those things and I happen to be "white" as well, but not a Neo-Nazi. I was blocked for calling people like you here Neo-Nazis, all people like you coming from Stormfront were someone has been posting messages to encourage Stormfront Nazis to come here. That is what you are and they can block me as often as they want for that. And I repeat it here: Neo-Nazi is not an insult. It is the objective description of an ideology. User Wobble has had the same problems for calling you what you are and other users had exactly the same problem. Only in this article you have been accused of the same thing over and over again by different people, while you have been trying to use the same tactics over and over again to get rid of them. It seems that a lot of people agree that you are a Neo-Nazi contributing in a page about "white" people. It is funny and a shame that some administrators think that a term that identifies an ideology is considered an insult and block people for it. A good place we have here with a lot of freedom of expression! For the Nazis, I am afraid. Veritas et Severitas 00:49, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Another of your big lies. Check better. Veritas et Severitas 18:10, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, Lukas19 and Veritas et Severitas, I'm going to ask both of you to just cut this argument off right here. It's not really productive or related to the topic of this page and you are both being uncivil. Veritas et Severitas, I understand that you are just trying to warn other editors about the potential for bias, but if you need to use the name of a specific user you should file a compliant not do it on the talk page here.
Lukas19, please resist the urge to defend you reputation. on this talk page. Can I recommend mediation for both of you. Please stop this argument.
I will wait a day and then move this section to the archive page. OK? futurebird 01:14, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
OK, I will stop it. I have already warned enough. Just a last word: Here you have the link to the Stormfront comment I just made:
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php/wikipedia-white-people-page-keeps-340624.html?t=340624
Just one tip. Can you see the ice hokey picture, well Lukas, before contributing under the name of Thulean, plays ice hockey, like he often likes to say because he is very proud of it. I know it must only be just another coincidence. Veritas et Severitas 01:26, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
nother of your big lies my friend. check it again. Veritas et Severitas 18:06, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
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1) Pic will be restored. The women is clearly white. I dont see any reason why she should be deleted.
2) Intro about Germanic people will be restored. Some Eastern Europeans and Southern Europeans werent always accepted as white. See White_American. Intro says meaning of white changes from place to place and from time to time. This is true. However, Germanic people have always been called white. This is also true. Also, note that, even today some Southern Europeans may not be accepted as white. See usage of Wog in Australia.
3) Dark hair section will be deleted. Phsycal Traits talks about traits associated with white people. For ex, Blond is associated with white people because it's very rare among non-whites. However dark hair is found among everyone. So including that is redundant. It's extra reduntant because the hair colour map makes it clear that the majority of people in Europe has non-light coloured hair. Lukas19 15:20, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Added a history of the term section and broke out Europe and United Kingdom/Ireland into separate sections, made discussion of Black Irish, and British surnames that use White. Minor fix: "besides" as it was used is exclusive, think it should have been "as well as Norwegians..." but I changed the phrasing completely.
I think the hair and eye color section could bear to mention brown and black hair and eyes as well as the lighter ones, but it is not as significant since all kinds of people can have dark hair and eyes.
-- Fourdee 08:20, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I had to replace the image of the Swedish woman because I realized the license on the picture was cc-by-nd which apparently is not accepted by Wikipedia. I found another good image, of a pale redhead, showing the unique features found in the white population and its license is cc-by (wikipedia acceptable). I will continue searching for good professional quality images for this article but I think this one does the job very well. Fourdee 11:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
OK, Fourdee. I will try and understand that we come from different places and that maybe some leanings that are considered one thing in Europe are more acceptable in America.
So, I will try and be constructive:
1. Picture: the picture is fine. But is it representative of all whites? We know that most whites do not look like that. So, why don't we show a set of images, instead of one, with different individuals that represent more or less the different types among whites?
2. As some user said, this is about people, not about what white people have and non-whites do not. It is clear that most whites have dark hair, so I think we should reintroduce that part and I think most reasonable people will agree.
3. About races in America. They are much more mixed than the statement implies:
A) African Americans have an average of about 20% white admixture.
B) As we all know Hispanic is not a race, but a group of people who speak Spanish. Actually the article that is used in the statement says:
From the genetic perspective, Hispanics generally represent a differential mixture of European, Native American and African ancestry. Our sample was of a single location in Texas and was composed of Mexican Americans.
c) Whites have also some degree of Native American and African ancestry.
I think that most reasonable people will agree that these comments have to be introduced in order to clarify that part. I will do it.
Since the genetic issue has been brought up, I will also introduce the Macdonalds' hapmap.
And I apologize for my comments. I will try and understand other points of view, although they may look strange in my culture. Veritas et Severitas 15:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Usere Lukas deletes changes tht have been agreed here, for example dark hair. I hopte that he does not delte them again. I want be cooperative but if unreasoanble conduct is engaged I think we should just report it. 65.11.163.243 16:24, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
User lukas is making changes again:
1. About Germanic people.
2. About dark hair being removed.
3. Deleting links like the macdonalds hpamap.
I will wait for comments. Then I will consider reporting his attitude. Veritas et Severitas 16:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
1. Wiki cannot be used as a reference. Your Germanic insistence is strange point of view pushing. Besides, Germanic is a linguistic group not a race. Besides, since the term white has social connotation is the US, Germans, Irish and others were not considered white at the beginning either. In any case, I do not think that engaging in this type of conversation is necessary. Most people will agree with something like this: European people are considered white. You can leave that, but not POV pushing controversial statements.
2. Dark hair is the most common. It should be there and other users have said it here. If you want another version go ahead and write it yourself, but you cannot try and eliminate dark hair completely.
3. The Hapmap is a reputable source. My interpretation is correct and even a blind person can see it.
I will now leave a very simple and short sentence about dark hair that can be expanded. As to the other issues and this I will wait for comments from other users. I will try and be constructive and I hope that we can all try and be objective, without letting subjective ideology in. I will not report anything yet. Veritas et Severitas 16:39, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
As said, I will not comment on you because you will always say the same things. I will wait for other users, then probably I will report your extreme POV pushing that must be visible even to a blind person. Veritas et Severitas 16:56, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
User Lukas is deleting the Hapmap and my interpretation.
I say that the Hapmap shows that the same Y-Cromosome and Mtdna (the genetic markers passed down from father to son and from mother to children) genetic population groups occur among people who have been classified in different races: black, white, Asian, etc.
Is my interpretation right or wrong?
Here is the Hapmap: http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf
Veritas et Severitas 17:58, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, I do not agree. The Hapmap is a good one, very recent and from 2004. Let us see other opinions though. Veritas et Severitas 00:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
This is not about deconstructing anything. I think the map is as clear as written in black and white. Let us just see other opinions though. Veritas et Severitas 01:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I have often said that a lot of Middle Easterners and North Africans are white and people continue erasing those comments.
1. Those countries are to some degree also multiracial, but there are many people who are of course white. Istambul, for example, is in fact whiter than any US city and that many European cities. And the same could be said of areas in Northern Africa.
2. The US census clearly classifies them as white.
3. A lot of people in the US are not white, but those who are are recognized as such. Would it be accurate to say that Americans are not white because many are not, or that all Californians are not white because many are not. This is a worrying tendency that some people have here: They apply a double standard. They discriminate white people in some places and not in others. Veritas et Severitas 01:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I did not blanck anything. There were some technical problems. some of my contributions did not come up either. ~~
Are Albinos White people too? Surely, they have light blond hair and very fair complexion like those of Northern Europeans.
The structure of the article is supossed to mean, to me, that if I´m not light-eyed and blond I´m not white. Light eye color is not exclusive of whites. How about people who are 100% European and have dark brown eyes and black hair?? How about people who are mixed race and have green or blue eyes?? Most of white people have brown eyes and dark hair. If only the blond and light eyed are white, about 2% of the world´s population is white :S Why many people say that Southern Europeans aren´t white??? cause most of them aren´t blond and blue-eyed??? It´s stupid. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lithop ( talk • contribs) 19:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC).
I have no puppets. I do not need to hide. I hope that administrators can finally see what kind of contributor you are and how you are constantly causing problems. Veritas et Severitas 20:47, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I took a look at the pictures given at the exclusive club section and I personally find it contradicting that the writers. It seems that the photos have shown a number of them with fair complexion like Europeans. However, strangely enough, the true origin of this people cannot be traced back - I wonder where their ancestors are really from: Turkey? Macedonia? Russia? - if not for Greece. Who would vote Pashtuns and Kalashas for Whites and who? Should we stick to the fact that "seeing is believe" or do you still need to cite sources as reference? -- 211.24.155.43 15:54, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I personally find it strange that the Bai of China be part of the White race. Unlike the Pashtuns and Kalasha of Chitral, these people don't even look White after taking a look at the photos. Besides, there is no description of the skin and hair colour as well as the physical features that would them otherwise to be Whites. -- 219.94.124.102 15:55, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Do we need one? We've got enough pics I think. Lukas19 20:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you P.Historian. The systematic bias in this article is outrageous (And it is not only US, it is much more than that). See the edits that I am doing and that Fourdeen is deleting. I do not delete things now because they continue posting the same things over and over again, so I am just clarifying them. It seems 6that some people here have never heard of systematic bias: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias. Veritas et Severitas 23:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Stop pesting my persoanl page, Fourdeen. Veritas et Severitas 23:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I have reported you Fourdenn. Veritas et Severitas 23:36, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I thought it was good to include the images, especially of those of Lierbeman and Emeril especially in Emeril's case in Australia. Down here in Australia where I am, many people still have that 1920s Nordicist view and do not consider Mediterraneans as `white'. Here, I seem to notice that since we don't have a large cross section of the world commulnity in our 20+ million population, anyone who is a shade darker than pasty will have the potential to have their ethnicity questioned. Not only are Mediterraneans not considered `white' in this country, they are also not considered Australian. `Australian' is used to identify a person of Anglo-Saxon, Nordic, Celtic or Germanic ancestry. People not of these origins are also told not to think that they are Australian either.
In the Gallery, we could include images of Kate Beckinsale (1/8 Burmese) and Peter Ustinov (Part Ethiopian ancestry) and state that they would normally be classed as white by popular international definitions, but some white nationalists would exclude them due to knowledge of them having some mixed race ancestry.
Try and use reliable sources, Emcee Lynx is not one. I've attributed his assertions for now, but they should be replaced with something more academic. - Francis Tyers · 08:44, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
This Marginal Whites gallery seems like little more than POV. It should go. Not a dog 14:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I've removed it. Not a dog 17:02, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Just noticed the following in your edit comments Lukas, minor issues but worth sorting out.
As to the light eyes I'd be very curious to see a map of the white population of the US by eye color. My own impression is that in my state (Oregon) it is somewhere around 75% of whites with blue or green eyes, but in the predominantly Irish places it's much much lower - like the 20% range I'm guessing. I don't think anyone collects statistics like that on the US, even though it would be very easy from driver's license records, because it is considered politically incorrect, but it would be a fascinating map - especially if it included only the white population.
1) clarity; 2) internal consistency (reverted version is not consistent with itself). Care to discuss this so we can work together to address these issues? Thanks! dr.ef.tymac 19:32, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Follow-up: Ok for starters, I originally moved OED to the beginning because it is a respected authority on basic English usage. As far as I can see, no one has yet contested that, and it appears to be one of the few points of enduring consensus. dr.ef.tymac 19:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
1) "In basic English usage, White people (also white race or whites) are "... a human group having light-coloured skin, especially of European ancestry."
In encyclopedic articles, the opening sentence should say what a term is, not what it denotes.
2)"The term has been applied with varying degrees of formality, consistency, and analytic rigor based on sociological, cultural, political, medical, linguistic and legal analysis." The sentence should say "has been applied" instead of "is applied" because the article is about all uses of the term throughout history, not just today. As for the words between "rigor" and "sociological", perhaps it should say "in terms of" or "in relation to" instead of "based on", depending on what the sentence is actually supposed to convey. However, the phrase "to many different contexts, including" is too wordy and confusing. Spylab 19:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
This section is for some traits which are associated with Whites because, they are either quite rare or non-existant among non-white populations. We dont need black or brown hair sections since it is obvious that many whites have these colour of hairs. And maps also make this clear... Lukas19 20:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Lukas why have you deleted the section on black hair and brown hair and changed the origin date of r1b from 35000 years ago (see the national genogeaphic) to 10000bc? Lukas blonde hair and red hair are not exclusive to people of white caucasian ancestry, some australian aborigines have blonde hair and some other indian ocean and pacific ocean islanders have that. Some North African berbers have blonde hair, as do some lebanese people, some middle easteners have red hair. We should bring back black and brown hair as most white people have that hair colour in Ireland, Wales, Scotland , Austria, Switzerland etc and again blonde hair is not exclusive to euopean whites or red hair. On your logic we should delete brown eyes from white people as it is not exclusive to white people. Stop making changes without consultation lukas. -- Globe01 15:27, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
try this r1b link for more info on it and sources on r1b. The vast majority of white people in the British ISles fro example have black or brown hair so excluding black hair from the article makes it seem as though the vast majority of people from the British Isles are not white.-- Globe01 16:39, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Regarding this [8] edit, I can add counter arguments to this:
Critiquing this line of thinking, molecular anthropologist Jonathan Marks notes that the races themselves are "an assertion of qualitative geographical distinctions ... [which] is not natural, not objective, not value-neutral, not scientific, and not being inferred from the data." Further, the use of genetic markers is "subtly redefining race yet again" by "a very careful look at the very small amount of genetic variation that has a major geographical component." This requires a number of arbitrary decisions causing "an epistemological problem" of circular reasoning because this selection is not genetic, but cultural.
However,
It has recently been demonstrated in several studies that to a large extent, without prior knowledge of individual origins, the geographic ancestries of individuals can be inferred from genetic markers.....In one of the most extensive of these studies to date, considering 1,056 individuals from 52 human populations, with each individual genotyped for 377 autosomal microsatellite markers, we found that individuals could be partitioned into six main genetic clusters, five of which corresponded to Africa, Europe and the part of Asia south and west of the Himalayas, East Asia, Oceania, and the Americas. [9]
Also Jonathan Marks's claim that there is small amount of genetic variation that has a major geographical component dates back to Richard Lewontin, who argued in a 1972 paper that human races have no taxonomic value because there exists more variation within racial groups than between them. Indeed, some researchers report the variation between racial groups (measured by Sewall Wright's population structure statistic FST) accounts for as little as 5-7% of human genetic variation.
However, most geneticists now recognize that low FST values does not indicate whether or not races exist among humans because of technical limitations of FST (Edwards, 2003), see Lewontin's Fallacy.
A. W. F. Edwards claimed in 2003 that Lewontin's conclusion is unwarranted because the argument ignores the fact that most of the information that distinguishes populations is hidden in the correlation structure of the data and not simply in the variation of the individual factors. [1] While it makes Lewontin's argument unwarranted, it does not address whether or not there are, in fact, races among humans, see Lewontin's Fallacy.
And I can add more. But there are also counter arguments to them. So it'll get too long. This discussions already take place in Race, Genetic views on race and Race and multilocus allele clusters. So I will delete the latest addition. But the study on USA will remain because: i) it answers to Census claims: The 2000 United States Census, speaking of race categories, states, "They generally reflect a social definition of race recognized in this country. They do not conform to any biological, anthropological or genetic criteria." and numerous other social construction arguments throughout the article. ii)Whites are mentioned directly. So if you got anything which specifically mentions whites add it, but I'll delete this one.... Lukas19 01:03, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
And as Marks is in direct response to LeRoi's article (which you've added now), I'm replacing it.-- Carwil 02:04, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Old Text...
Problems...
Let's use the source, or at least the scientists' summary [10] They note: "this variation contributes between 25 percent and 38 percent of the range of skin color in this [an African-American and an African-Caribbean population with recent mixture] population" (press release) and "SLC24A5 explains between 25 and 38% of the European-African difference in skin melanin index." (article) So, it's not the skin-whitening mutation, but one of a larger set.
Second, per SLC24A5, this is a one base-pair mutation ("differ in only one nucleotide"). Such a mutation is likely to appear multiple times, unlikely to spread from one individual to all of the European population in the time available, and appears elsewhere (and thus may have preceded the "exodus".
In short, the Washington Post is weaving a narrative irrelevant to, and unlikely to explain the data: a 'single individual, after the first human exodus from Africa are apocryphal and unsupported by the research paper itself. First isn't accurate as multiple human and hominid migrations spread through Eurasia, And exodus itself (implying bondage in Africa), thrived, and give rise to are all POV. None of "the world's races" can be said to have "arisen" until millennia later, when they were named and their history created after the fact.
New Text...
-- Carwil 03:03, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
These maps are very interesting. However, is it possible that these maps can have national borders included just to get a clearer understanding of hair and eye colouring frequencies in certain countries. For example, Northeastern Italy has an eye colouring frequency of 50% of the population but it is hard to tell where these frequencies stop with no national borders. - 24/12/06 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Galati ( talk • contribs) 15:56, 24 December 2006 (UTC).
People please read what is written before making absurd claim:
"It has recently been demonstrated in several studies that to a large extent, without prior knowledge of individual origins, the geographic ancestries of individuals can be inferred from genetic markers [1–5]. In one of the most extensive of these studies to date, considering 1,056 individuals from 52 human populations, with each individual genotyped for 377 autosomal microsatellite markers, we found that individuals could be partitioned into six main genetic clusters, five of which corresponded to Africa, Europe and the part of Asia south and west of the Himalayas, East Asia, Oceania, and the Americas [3]. Some individuals from boundary locations between these regions were inferred to have partial ancestry in the clusters that corresponded to both sides of the boundary. In many cases, subclusters that corresponded to individual populations or to subsets of populations were also identified." [11]
So while whites cluster with other non-white caucasoids, there are also subclusters within caucasoid population. Try to think whites as a subset of Caucasoids and Caucasoids as a subset of Humans. If we get samples from mammals, I'm sure we can also make 1 cluster of humans. That doesnt mean there can be no subclusters... Lukas19 18:48, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
The < vs. > was totally my mis-keying as the rest of the article copied cleanly from PDF. Don't panic.-- Carwil 02:14, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
On (5): I don't discount subclustering, but instead suggest that we could have 10, 100, or 1000 of them. Subclustering does, however, help get rid of the problem of Euro-African "mixing", by looking for clusters within the predominantly Eurasian regions without reference to the other regions.
On (4):In Rosenberg et al. the 7-region AMOVA is not the result of a consistent statistical search (if it were, they would have subclustered the other four clusters as well), but part of their confirmation that there is "within-[continental] population component of genetic variation, estimated here as 93 to 95% (Table 1), accounts for most of human genetic diversity." This is exactly the point of Lewontin's much disputed (on this page) research. If Europe were part of a "natural" 7-region set (a statistical effect not decided beforehand), it would come by making K=7 in their main analysis. Rather, they chose to use the subclusters to reinforce the point made by previous researchers (starting in their citations with Lewontin) that each group contains more diversity within it than it differs from others in.
Note also that the three part division of Eurasia is inconsistent between random runs and does not achieve the statistical coherence they seek (read R. et al. descriptions of "similarity coefficients" in the subclustering), and must be added to a fourth "part", the Kalash.
More importantly, Rosenberg provides a better clarification of what types of variation we are talking about between clusters. Since we agree on it as a valid source, I'm adding their clarity to the page.-- Carwil 02:14, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
There is no "white race" thus the term should be removed from the article.
-- Margrave1206 20:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
In the "The Races of Europe" of 1939, the Nordic race is considered a mixture of the Mediterranean race. So Nordic people are mixed. Also Europe is make of different racial groups, ergo one cannot have a race inside of a race. This would mean there is no white race, perhaps there is a white race in the USA where people are so mixed they are unsure of their ancestry. However for those who have knowledge of science and history know better. There is no black race, or any other race via color category. The only place where this term white race seemed to be used would be neo-nazi sites or white nationalist sites. Where is the proof a white race exist? Don't lump Europeans into your personal preference. This article needs is far to bias.
Also according the Ripley Europeans are placed into three main races. Teutonic, Mediterranean, and Alpine.
If you use William Z. Ripley, The Races of Europe: A Sociological Study (New York: D. Appleton and Co., 1899), as a referance.
-- Margrave1206 18:14, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
The Races of Europe is a fossil, completely outdated. Especially Ripley's version, which dates back to the 19th century! FilipeS 18:42, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Something should be written on the perception of `white' in South Africa. As well as Europeans; Lebanese, Turks and Iranians were also classed as `white' during the apartheid period.
I added this text because the average reader will think that Leroi is talking about alleles when he's not.
-- Carwil 02:34, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
This section needs to be ousted it has no reliable citations. Again we have another bias American article. "The origin of the term white in terms of race and ethnicity is somewhat unclear. One early use of the term appears in the Amherst Papyri, which were scrolls written in ancient Ptolemaic Greek. It contained the use of Black and White in reference to human skin color." -- Margrave1206 04:14, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Our government/society– makes me feel guilty because I do not want to subject my children to feel they are a minority or of less importance. I feel the need to raise them around a majority of kids and people that favor their charteristics. Is this wrong??? I would like my children to seek others that look like they do for a husband or a wife. If I raise them in an area that has a majority of blacks or hispanics their choice would be limited. Once again is this wrong. Because it feel right. 70.240.241.13 04:23, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
I am not a registered user and i would appreciate if someone who is could add the following about Australia. `White' is not a metaphor used in the census to identify people by ethnicity. Country of birth and ethnic origin is. Europe is divided into categories of `Northern Europe', `Southern Europe' and 'Eastern Europe'. In regards to the opinion of Southern Europeans, The `White Australia policy' did accept larger numbers of them after the second world war. Some people in Australia may not consider them as white if they look dark, but this is a social thing, not a government institution classification. This, however I notice is the same in British society as in Britain, people tend not to consider dark Mediterraneans as white either. There have been instances where Southern Europeans have experienced racism because they have been mistaken for Middle-Easterners or even South Asians (Mediterranean elements can exist among Indo-Aryans). Why Are Pashtuns and Kalasha listed in the Links section? They would be classed as Asians in the UK!
For the above commentary: The problem with the opinions of "some people" is that they derived it mainly from 19th and 20th century Nordicism. Nordicism is in evident decline. The theories that it was based on are all a disaster and the result of much wishful thinking. It started to arise in 17th century Europe closely linked to Protestantism and as a reaction of some Northern Europeans to counter the inferiority complex that they had in relation to Southern Europeans for obvious historical reasons: The real basis for European (what could be called "white" civilization) are in fact in the Mediterranean: In Greece, in Rome and in Judea (Christianity): the Greek and Roman civilizations being a fundamental pillar, Rome being a fundamental tool in the propagation of Christianity in Western Europe and Greece in Eastern Europe. On top of that, at the dawn of the Modern Age (XV and XVI) centuries, it was Southern Europeans again (now the Spanish and the Portuguese) who dominated Europe itself and the European Expansion in the world: Discovery of America, Circumnavigation of the Earth, first truly global Empires, etc. England embraced Nordicism as a political tool when Henry VIII separated the Church of England from Rome and has had an important influence in Anglo-Saxon countries since then. Today Nordicism is not only in evident decline, but increasingly restricted to very suspicious circles, still some people here seem to have a keen interest in expressing their opinions in this article as if radical positions are worthy of an Encyclopeadia. The climax of Nordicism lies in the equations: 1. White = Western civilization. 2. Nordics are whiter, therefore Nordics are more responsible for Western civilization. End result: Appropriation of Western and European civilization and of the heritage of Mediterranean Europe. The game is old and although no intelligent people take them seriously anymore they are especially active in Internet.
In fact they find themselves in constant contradictions: They would obviously say that Jesus and the Apostles are white, but then they would say that Jews are not white. They would obviously count Aristotle, Socrates, Caesar and an extremely long list of Southern Europeans as white, but then some would say that Greeks and Mediterraneans are not white etc. In short, it all has to do with the appropriation game that I mentioned above.
If you you want to know more about the subject you can try the following books: Tree of Hate: by Philip Wayne Powell. Bryan Sykes also deals with this problem in Blood of the Isles (in the US for sale as Saxons, Vikings and Celts). Veritas et Severitas 19:14, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Well if only people with blond hair and blue eyes are to be considered white, then whites are a minority among Europeans and Western and European civilization should not be linked with the term white (apart from the fact of considering different members of a family in different races: my father and my sister are white then, me and my mother not).
Anyway, sometimes in this article I wonder what idea people have of Europeans. Here you have the pictures of all the members of the European parliament by country. Serve yourselves and count the blond types. You can start directly by Sweden, where they are all supposed to be blond in some people's mind.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/members/public.do?language=en
Even taking into account some probable artificial blondes, the picture is desolate for what we can call here blondists. We have two possibilities:
1. Blonds are a small minority among Europeans.
2. Blonds are not very good at politics.
I would go for the first one.
Veritas et Severitas 14:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Um, how many Europeans have two hair colors and/or eye colors? Can someone rephrase; inserting "[races]" after humans seems like putting words in Frost's mouth. "[Groups]", "[communities]", "[ethnic groups]" are probably all wrong. Can someone rephrase.-- Carwil 00:40, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree. See if you can do something about it. Veritas et Severitas 02:06, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I think it is good. Veritas et Severitas 14:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Some user has already made reference to the Australian section. It is interesteing to see commnents like that and how most people here are happy with a definition based on ¨some people¨, using racial slurs like wog and so on. I am not surprised.
I do not agree with this kind of approach, which is not worthy of this place, but since this type of contribution seems ok for people here I will make equivalent contributions.
The first one is in the US section:
Some white people are regarded as second class whites in US society. See usage of Redneck, White Trash or Hillbilly. Veritas et Severitas 22:15, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I have made another contribution in the Australian section. I will continue another time. The English language seems to be incredibly rich in this type of slurs. Veritas et Severitas 22:55, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
add images of Luciano Pavarotti to keep everyone's mouth shut on the main page!!!
We should go about very carefully with users like Lukas and others. Their positions, if you follow them need no comment. Then he is constantly making use of administrators to attack other users here. He has already done the same with a lot of users in this article, including me in the past, to get read here of all people who do not go along with his view of the world and his view of white people and races.
Just see this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Wobble
In short, I think he is manipulating this place. We all have said that all opinions are accepted here. OK, Neo-Nazis have been participating in this article from the beginning and this fact should be known by everyone who comes around here. And attention, Neo-Nazi is not an insult, it is the objective description of an ideology. They have been using all types of tactics to burn out good-faith contributors and take control of the article over and over again. I consider this to be very serious. I hope there are good-faith people here who can see the forest behind the trees. Veritas et Severitas 03:43, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I never said those things and I happen to be "white" as well, but not a Neo-Nazi. I was blocked for calling people like you here Neo-Nazis, all people like you coming from Stormfront were someone has been posting messages to encourage Stormfront Nazis to come here. That is what you are and they can block me as often as they want for that. And I repeat it here: Neo-Nazi is not an insult. It is the objective description of an ideology. User Wobble has had the same problems for calling you what you are and other users had exactly the same problem. Only in this article you have been accused of the same thing over and over again by different people, while you have been trying to use the same tactics over and over again to get rid of them. It seems that a lot of people agree that you are a Neo-Nazi contributing in a page about "white" people. It is funny and a shame that some administrators think that a term that identifies an ideology is considered an insult and block people for it. A good place we have here with a lot of freedom of expression! For the Nazis, I am afraid. Veritas et Severitas 00:49, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Another of your big lies. Check better. Veritas et Severitas 18:10, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, Lukas19 and Veritas et Severitas, I'm going to ask both of you to just cut this argument off right here. It's not really productive or related to the topic of this page and you are both being uncivil. Veritas et Severitas, I understand that you are just trying to warn other editors about the potential for bias, but if you need to use the name of a specific user you should file a compliant not do it on the talk page here.
Lukas19, please resist the urge to defend you reputation. on this talk page. Can I recommend mediation for both of you. Please stop this argument.
I will wait a day and then move this section to the archive page. OK? futurebird 01:14, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
OK, I will stop it. I have already warned enough. Just a last word: Here you have the link to the Stormfront comment I just made:
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php/wikipedia-white-people-page-keeps-340624.html?t=340624
Just one tip. Can you see the ice hokey picture, well Lukas, before contributing under the name of Thulean, plays ice hockey, like he often likes to say because he is very proud of it. I know it must only be just another coincidence. Veritas et Severitas 01:26, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
nother of your big lies my friend. check it again. Veritas et Severitas 18:06, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
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