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Having a problem with this section because it's not offering any details on the Uruguayan census and no social definition of whiteness according to that census. It lacks any kind of relevant information about legal standards or procedures defining racial categories within the country. Instead it's just a listing of European immigration that is non constructive to the section titled Census and social definitions in different regions. CenterofGravity ( talk) 02:43, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
The Kazakhs are Mongoloid. One can't fit them even into the rather delusional definition of whites presented in the article. He isn't even part-white, since he has no notable foreign admixtures. -- Humanophage ( talk) 13:00, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
There are 11 mln Russians out of 15 mln of Kazakhstan's population, almost 60 per cent of Kazakhstan's territory belonged to Russia. But people who are called Kazakhs in Kazakhstan are Asian of mongoloid origin. They are not considered white in any way. In that case the entire Mongolia, China Viet Nam should be considered Caucasian. And please learn whats the difference between Kazakhs and RUssian Kozaks or Cossacks. Therefore, Nursulatn Nazarbayev;s pic should be deleted ASAP.
but if we dont have sources either way more editors are against leaving him in the gallery than are for that would be you ramdrake going against a consenus-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 00:10, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree he shouldn´t be in the White category even if according to genetic studies it is true that both Kazakhs and Uygurs (China) have about 20% of Caucasian genes (similar to black Americans)
Exuse me, you want me to go to Kazakhstan to interview Nazarbayev to find out his race? He can indentify himself as afro american or pacific islander, it is his business. Race is a very vague and fluid category. He, Nazarebayev, worked for Russians, all his life he served Russians , he still is their "man", and he can even identify himself Russian. Nobody cares. If Nazarbayev calls himself white that doesnt mean that the entire Altaic turkic speaking Kazakh nation should be considered a different race apart from Chinese, Mongolian, Buryat, Kirgiz, Uyghur people. I can not understand why you are trying to impose your own POW, your own opinion in wikipedia. You are a neuroscientist who has nothing to do with anthropology, ethnography and ethnopsychology. You want to convince me, a person who is from USSR who the Kazakh people are??? Now remember for now on: Kazakhs are mongoloid turkic speaking nation, whose skin colour can be white as almost all the asian peoples' skin. Nursulatan Nazarbayev is a pure Kazakh who is considered mongoloid or according to US classification of races- Asian. And if you go on with undoing and bringin back his picture to this page I have nothing to do but to ask wikipedia moderators to intervene to stop your vandalism. I can not prove that I am not a camel. You have to prove first that Nazarbayev is white, bring your own reliable resources, proving that Kazakh people are Caucasian or indoeuropean or white.--armenianNY 23:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ArmenianNY ( talk • contribs)
i am in favor of his removal his features are way to strongly mongoloid to be considered white ,in a gallery of white people-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 14:33, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Okay, so you think it is obvious. YOU think it is obvious. Sorry, your POV is not what Wikipedia is about. Our policies are our policies, and we do not make exceptions just to please your own point of view. My view as to whether Narzabaev are irrelevnt, as should be yours. Is there a notable view that we can find in a reliable source that identifies him as a white person? If so we can use his photo, whether you or I like it or not. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:54, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
This is completely ridiculous. I count something like six middle-easterners and a Kazakh in that 'gallery'. This is common sense, guys. An article on 'white people' should include white people. If you just want to piss people off for fun, the articles will be crap. I am deleting the non-white people based on simple common sense. Feichangdao ( talk) 22:14, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
your comments are useless and are not helping to resovle this-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 22:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
its not only the u.s do you have any sources that science has changed racial clasifications-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 22:37, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
For me personally, it is not a strong opinion. The original point of this particular thread was that the picture of Nursultan Nazarbaev (Kazakh) should not be included because some of the editors thought he was Asian rather than white (and I agreed with this position as well). I can see your point, and I do not think that your position is ridiculous, so I would hope you could afford the same courtesy to other editors that have a different opinion than yours. Opinion doesn't matter as much here though, so here are 3 additional references on the definition of white/caucasian race:
American Heritage Dictionary: Of or being a human racial classification distinguished especially by very light to brown skin pigmentation and straight to wavy or curly hair, and including peoples indigenous to Europe, northern Africa, western Asia, and Indian.
Random House Unabridged Dictionary: Of, pertaining to, or characteristic of one of the traditional racial divisions of humankind, marked by fair to dark skin, straight to tightly curled hair, and light to very dark eyes, and originally inhabiting Europe, parts of North Africa, western Asia, and India.
Compact Oxford English Dictionary: Relating to a broad division of humankind covering peoples from Europe, Western Asia, parts of the Indian Subcontinent and parts of North Africa" or "white-skinned; of European origin" or "relating to the region of the Caucasus in SE Europe".
Kman543210 (
talk)
23:03, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
(ec)Feichangdao, please read over our NPOV policy carefully. In the meantime, it is clear that you so fully misundersatand it that we can ignore your comments. NPOV is precisely a framework for handling disputed material and it requires that we incloude all notable points of view; this is especially important when there are disputes. If there is a dispute we comply with NPOV by providing all sides of the dispute; to silence those sides is to violate NPOV. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:22, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm totally cool with either removal or keeping Nursultan Nazarbayev, whether some people think he's "white" or some think he looks "too" much like he's from the far east is somewhat irrelevant. What we personally believe is unimportant, if there's a consensus one way or the other then I'll go with it. The point is that "white" means different things to different people, and it isn't always a so called "racial" designation. A reading of Alastair Bonnett's White Identities shows that "racial" whiteness is specifically a modern and western conception, and that non-modern and non-western conceptions of "white people" were not racially based."It is my contention that, although there were no white racial identities in pre-modern China, there were white identities. In other words, certain Chinese people employed the category "white" to help define which social collectivity they belonged to...Whiteness was associated with purity, sensitivity and beauty...Early encounters with Europeans do not appear to have disturbed Chinese white identities. Westerners were not interpreted as more authentically white than Chinese people. Indeed, many accounts emphasise the peculiar, ash-like, quality of the former's skins." Bonnet goes on to discuss pre-modern Middle Eastern concepts of whiteness "There is also evidence to suggest that, as in China, a white complexion was associated with membership of the social elite." A bit later he discusses the encounters of early European travellers with non-Europeans. "Accounts of early European travellers encountering "white people" in non-European lands are numerous. Thus, for example, we find, as a study by Reid (1994) shows, that 'Portugese conquistadores routinely describe their Gujerati or Arab antagonists as white, as well as Chinese and Ryukyuans.' The first European mission to the Qing area of china described the inhabitants as having a white appearance 'equal to the Europeans'." Bonnet gives many more examples, including early European settlers in the Americas describing native Americans as white. Pre modern European conceptions of white people were likewise not racialised. "..as in China and the Middle East, there existed cultural traditions in ancient and medieval Europe that valued the colour white as a symbol of purity, religious devotion and nobility. The pale complexion attributed to aristcrats (according to pre-modern European legend, pale enough to see their veins, hence the expression 'blue blood') provided a physical marker of their noble descent." Bonnet also states "some American commentators have also recently suggested that whiteness may, over time, be expanded in the United States to include certain East Asian American groups, such as Japanese Americans". All this arguing about people "looking white" or not is a red herring because it's based on the conditioning of people into their own cultural norms. We decided to have a gallery based on the widest possible interpretation of "white people" because it was the only way to be as inclusive as possible for all possible considerations of "whiteness". If we cannot meet our original criteria for inclusiveness (that we all agreed when we decided to reintroduce a gallery) by that I mean if we are going to only have a very narrow set of images, only showing Nordic people, and claim, as many 19th century anthropologists did that Irish and Mediterranean people are not "white", then I don't see the point of a gallery at all. This article (and Wikipedia) surely does not exist to push a single point of view of what "white" people are, it exists to include all possible points of view of what "white people" can be, depending upon context. Alun ( talk) 18:05, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I don't know, if we include the Ginger kids, we might piss off the Eric Cartman faction.
Why lobot? 218.186.67.37 ( talk) 10:52, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Just to point out that in the short time it ha been put back in service, the gallery ha attracted the following comments and actions:
All this in a mere 3 weeks. I'm just wondering if this will die down, and if not, if it's really worth the trouble to keep the gallery. Feedback is most welcome.-- Ramdrake ( talk) 12:07, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
And we may have to end up defending the gallery again and again, but any picture included should be justified and a consensus should be reached for inclusion. It's possible that one of the pictures gets replaced by another through consensus, and that's fine as long as it's done in good faith and not edit warring. In defending the gallery, we shouldn't make the assumption that each and every one of those pictures is the best examples and going to stay forever. Right now, with the exception of one, we've had a good consensus to justify them, so that's a good thing. Kman543210 ( talk) 22:19, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
This gallery is some sort of joke right? There's a fair number of people on it who are very clearly not 'White', even if they have light skin. 86.163.244.239 ( talk) 15:55, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
the so called most beautiful woman on earth is brown and not white. indians do not self identify as whitea (maybe some pathetic race-traitors do). indians are indians, even if we would fall under the caucasoid category. probably we might have the same forefathers, but thats long ago. yes, some of you are right, the therm "white" is a social construct. as the therm brown, black, red and yellow are. But I never saw an indian calling a non-indian as one of their own. it doesnt matter what colour they would have.
so therefor I wouldnt name the therm "white" to describing a south-asian. in my sense i wouldnt even call arabs as white. but thats something else, i dont want to discuss. Asian2duracell ( talk) 18:03, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
See this haplogroup map: http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf In case you do not see well, haplotype R1a is very common both in India and Europe. If you do not know what a haplogroup is read this: http://www.dnaheritage.com/masterclass2.asp
And to finish, you never heard "Indoeuropean languages".
And as far as Aishwarya Rai si concerned, she is white all right.
And this is science, not personal opinions or social opinions, both pretty stupid and ignorant all too often. Jan.
well ur map of haplotypes and haplogroups only shows.. that indians are most related to each other, than to others.
So what if R1a is commen in both places?... why are Haplogroups C, D, H and L allmost absent in Europe? which form the major part of South Asian Haplogroups.
I dont doubt that some indians or pakistanis are related to some europeans. that might be most true in the northwestern part of the subcontinent. But that doesnt make them white. "white" as you name it is a social construct, mainly to describe europeans. Some of you might know... In asia people dont use colours to describe their origin. we use our religion, caste or ethnicity.
Yes ofcourse, i've heard about the IndoEuropean languages. It's a point. But dont Native South-Americans nowadays also speak IndoEuropean Languages (Spanish/Portugese..) What makes u so sure that europeans didn't adopt these language from a small number of migrating folk? I tell you that beacause as far as i know, Sanskrit and Avestan are older than European classic languages.
As we talk about Aishwarya Rai, she is SouthIndian. Native to Karnataka. And mentioned in this article to be white are only people in the Nortwestern part of SouthAsia. Karnataka is nowhere colse to the border of Pakistan. So that makes South Indians logically as "non-whites", Ain't that true?
The problem some of you have is that you thing Caucasian=white (Maybe because of American race-laws). But whites are only a extreme pale version of caucasians. most Indians are an extreme dark version of caucasians. All others are in bewteen.
Im not here to divide people in races and colours. I just want to show you, that u cant put a whole ethnicity in a single race. As we are allready to much mixed, to do so. I think that Haplogroup-map shows what I want to tell you. Asian2duracell ( talk) 14:29, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
I remember this idiot Asian2Duracell when I was having an arguement with him on the Blacks page. He is a Tamil who was trying to push the point of view that "Brown People" start in Turkey and that African blood in southern Europeans should be ignored and all Europeans should be unconditionally considered `white' regardless of phenotype or colour (Romani are now established as a European race so by your logic they should be included as white). He also stated that Mediterannean Caucasoids include people from Southern Europe to India both North and South. So some Mediterraneans are `white' whilst others are `brown'? What the hell is he trying to make sense out of? I for one use `white' to identify a persons phenotype rather than their nationality and to a certain degree ancestry. I'm sure that looking at this image of Canadian Italian actor Pat Mastroianni http://www.patmeup.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/P1010052.jpg one can see a clear difference compared to the `Nordic' on the left. Aesthetcally they look quite distinctively different. Non-Europeans who look 'white' could include Bashar Al-Assad (Syrian), Princess Salma(Moroccan) and Omar Abullah (Indian) Pictured here in order. All of them look `whiter' than Mr Mastraionni, who would unconditionally be classed as `white' in almost all census definitions due to being of European Ancestry:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/middleeast-crisis/gfx/assad_cp_1562024.jpg
http://thailand.prd.go.th/60th/img_k_q/morocco.jpg
http://www.the-south-asian.com/Nov2001/omar-abdullah1.jpg
Asian2Duracell's logic: "Greeks are white, Turks are brown" Sorry mate! the two have been fighting and fucking each other for centuries, I challenge you to differentiate!
You're welcome. The only reason why Pat Mastrionni would be classed as `white' by REAL white Europeans is that they are afraid to be slated as Nordicists if they were to categorise him otherwise. Europe is not a fortress of racial purty. Race-mixing has been taking place for centuries. On close inspection Pat Mastrionni clearly does not Aesthetically look `white', one can even see slight negroid traits in his features. Do you think the average Joe would identify him to the police as `white' if he was a criminal suspect? I doubt it. Phenotypically Bashar, Lalla and Omar do look white and that is the issue. I guess you would class a German in Brazil as nonwhite because he/she is not From Europe.
I am a blond Briton. I wouldn't identify him as white as a criminal suspect. I would say he qualifies as "Visible Ethnic Minority", I would possibly mistake him for South Asian if I saw his face in Bradford or Oldham. Compared to your phenotype he may look `white', but you'd probably consider Halle Berry as `white' just because her mother is. The Police Ethnic Code/Identity Code in the UK identifies Mediterraneans as a separate category from `white'. I'm a campaigner for anthropological fact, not opinion. Southern Europeans are racially ambiguous. Some of them look `white' whilst others don't, simple as that. Same as if a person comes from Brazil, the U.S. or Even here in the U.K. WE ARE RACIALLY AMBIGUOUS! I know many Medierranean Europeans who do not consider themselves `white' and rightly so.
Tut-tut Mr Duracell! You're getting quite verbally agressive now! Perhaps because your POV is trying to dominate the subject. You consider both North and South Indians as `Brown' because as we have agreed, the north and south have fought and fucked each other for centuries, but Greeks are `white' and Turks as "brown' despite the same reason. I agree with you to a degree that `white' is a social concept and the rule of thumb is traditionally considered "all native Europeans as "white", but we have to both agree that looking at the blurred edges between different races, it can be hard to distinguish and people need to be taken on a case by case basis.
What we are "fucking discussing" as you've put it is my first point that I placed in the first post, that you have wanted to have things both ways, that some Mediterraneans are 'white' whilst others are 'brown", you've now shot yourself in the foot. I'm not one for pushing the POV that ALL Middle Easterners, Indians and North Africans look `white' but subjective to the individual, there are ones that do on a case by case basis. At the same time., If we dropped a dark skinned Southern European (like Mastrionni) on the streets of Cairo, Bagdad, Tehran or Lahore, I doubt he would be visibly identified as a `white' by the local population and probably would be first communicated to in their native tongues. Syria was under ancient European Empires and the Crusaders (from Britain, France Germany etc) left their genetic imprint on the population, possibly explaining why Bashar Al-Assad looks white, he could possibly claim some European heritage, the same point I made about the Brazillian German. I don't think any intelligent person, regardless of his or her ethnicity would would refer to Assad as "Brown" just because of where he comes from, nor with the Kalash of Pakistan.
Nikki Bedi (from BBCs `Desi DNA') who is half English/ half Indian talks about being called a 'bloody Paki" when she was at school. Looking at her appearance here
http://www.lovenikkibedi.com/Gallery/Nikki_Bedi_217_main.jpg, I doubt she would have been called that based on her appearance, but knowledge of her ethnicity, she looks more like a Brit than a Brownie and she's fully Caucasoid. There are ignorant people everywhere. In the UK, British Turks, Armenians and Gypsies are classed as "white" in the census. Most Gypsies have mixed with the British population and aesthetically many look `white'. The Identity code for the police is used mostly to describe people's appearance prior to the knowledge of their ethnicity being established. A dark looking Welshman could possibly be identified as "Mediterranean". Someone like
Greta Scacchi could be prercieved as `white'. Brown is also a colour metaphor often used for Hispanics, yet there is another category "white Hispanic" for those who are of full or predominantly European ancestry. Back to sqaure one, you shouldn't complain too much if there are non-European Caucasoids in the image gallery just to illustrate broader subjective concepts of the metaphor "white".
Lets' look at the various ways a person can be seen as racially "white".
1. European. I don't think anyone would deny that Europeans are generally considered "white".
2. Caucasian. A bit more tricky, who is considered Caucasian seems to depending on what criteria are used. This is more about the opinion of various physical anthropologists. If we take a look at Huxley's "races" map, we see that he thought that "Caucasisns" were a nonsense category, but that Caucasians are what he called Xanthochroi and Melanochroi: 'It is to the Xanthochroi and Melanochroi, taken together, that the absurd denomination of "Caucasian" is usually applied'.
Huxley, T. H. "
On the Geographical Distribution of the Chief Modifications of Mankind" (1870) Journal of the Ethnological Society of London
What's interesting about Huxley's map is that it is not apparent whether Finns would be considered Caucasian, after all they are partly xanthrochroi and partly mongoloid, whereas peoples from the Horn of Africa certainly are Caucasian in this map, because they are unambiguously melanochroi. Anyway, from Huxley we have a map that includes peoples from south Asia (including Sri Lanka) as Caucasian, and this also includes people from Ethiopia, the Arabian peninsula, the Levant and North Africa. Alistair Bonnet says of this sort of racial science, when applied to white people "The expansion of power legitimised and encouraged the developement of racial science...It was a semi-autonomous discourse, one capable of throwing up material that contradicted Europeans' attempt to claim an exclusive stake in whiteness. Many racial scientists drew upon cranial and linguistic investigations as well as, or instead of, skin colour to establish the boundaries of race. Sometimes these investigations were used to confirm that Europeans had sole claim to whitness....Nevertheless, a much stronger current of scientific research supported the theory that Europeans were but one expression of a wider racial group (termed, sometimes interchangeably, Caucasian, Aryan and white), a group that included peoples from Asia and North Africa. This tradition established itself as the more scholarly expression of racial science. Thus we find it propagated in nineteenth- and twentieth- century student texts."
3. Legal or state definitions. Many states have their own ways to define who belongs to which "race". The USA is the most reliable because it specifically uses the term "race", whereas many European states prefer to use the less loaded term "ethnic group", and are more likely not to define any group per se, but to allow any responded to identify as part of an ethnic group freely. In the USA it is census definitions that appear to be the most widely cited, in the 1970 census for example people from the Indian subcontinent were classified as "white".
According to this 2000 US census definition then peoples from northern and central Asia can be considered "white" in the USA, from this map it is also clear that Nursultan Nazarbayev would be deemed white. In this census subcontinental Indian people have ceased to be "white" but are classified with people from east-Asia.
I have argued that for this article to have any meaning then we need to accept that "white" has different meanings in different contexts, but that for the gallery to work we need to accept that the most inclusive definition is the only workable one. This includes accepting that people from the subcontinent of India are sometimes considered white, than North African and Middle Eastern people are also sometimes considered white, that Ethiopian and Somali people are also sometimes considered white and that central Asian people are sometimes considered white. One thing that cannot possibly work is for all editors to reject any other conception of white than their own, that way we will never get resolution. I think that all of the sources I have used above are reliable and so I propose that we accept that our own parochial concept of whiteness do not apply globally or historically. As such we need to have a broader conception of who can be white rather than a narrow conception of who is white in our own culture/society. Can we at least accept that being "white" can mean very different things to different people? Alun ( talk) 11:29, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree. Jan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.231.92.194 ( talk) 13:28, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
I propose the gallery to be divided in 2 categories. Whites of European ancestry and non European caucasoids as `Marginal Whites". This would make more logic and everyone content. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.168.242.172 ( talk) 06:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes, the caption could read something along the lines of " the following people would be considered Caucasoid by anthropological definition, but may not always be percieved as " white" by Western societies due to not being of European ancestry". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.168.242.172 ( talk) 06:17, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
It's evident that there is no clear unambiguous definition of "white", we have several, very different concepts of how humans vary about the three continents of Africa, Asia and Europe. The real rwson for no unambiguous concept is that human variation is not packaged into discrete groups or "races", but varies gradually by geography, this means that the "boundaries" between "groups" are arbitrary and largely the product of the biases of the anthropologist who decides where these "boundaries" properly should fit. None of these concepts are "correct", but all are of some utility for our discussion of what "whitness" can mean. If we are going to degenerate into claims that only certain concepts of "whiteness" are applicable to the gallery, or that only some editors are "right", whatever the sources say, then I propose that we simply dispense with the gallery as unworkable and have done with it. Alun ( talk) 10:29, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Well, first of all I am more than sick to see all the time the Nordicist propaganda everywhere, sometimes blatant, sometimes just probably unconscious. Alun says: Many geneticists think that Southern Europeans are a mixture of Paleolithic Europeans and Neolothic migrants from the Near East. Sorry block, but this is mainly a East-West issue, not a North-South one. In fact, Spaniards are believed by many geneticists to be the people in Europe with the most paleolithic ancestry, also called Iberian or Basque. See here:
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/21/7/1361/T03
Spain is referred to as IberiaS.
Or here:
http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf
Hope people know some geography.
In fact, the Spanish genome is the most frequent in most of Western Europe. See here:
http://www.dnatribes.com/sample-results/dnatribes-europa-sample-spanish.pdf
In case some do not get it, yes, the more intense the yellow colour in the map, the closer the genetic affinities with the Spanish, who still happen to represent best the primaeval Western Europeans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.231.95.188 ( talk) 21:32, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Because of the simple fact that most Western Europeans happen to be of Spanish ancestry (Or Iberian or Basque, whatever you what to call it)
See here: http://www.dnaheritage.com/masterclass2.asp
And I could continue all day.
In short, enough with the Nordicist progaganda. The people of Northern Europe are as mixed as most other people or even more, especially the Germanic area, which along with the Balcanic area is one of the most mixed in Europe. And the people with the most Paleolithic element in them are in Spain, and as far as I know Spain is in the South of Europe. All peoples are mixed. Purity is the stupid idea of Nordicism and Nazism, today pathetic for their ignorance and for other things.
So after this explanation which I find necessary in the light of the ever-going Nordicist propaganda, I agree with the pictures, because they agree with a universal description of white people, such as they have been described by numerous anthropologists and in censuses like the US that says that white people are those coming form Europe, North Africa and the Middle East. And the US census does not hold the gavel for whiteness of course, let alone a few propagandists here. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.231.95.188 ( talk) 21:02, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Right, as I said things seem much more complicated and admixture everywhere. Still the Spanish are among those with the highest Paleolithic element in them if not those with the highest, and Spain is in the South of Europe, and the North-East is distinctly different because of the Asian influence, as I am sure you know, and the Spanish or Iberian element is the most important in Western Europe and numerically in Europe as a whole. That said, I think that we basically agree with the definition these pictures give of white people as broad and based on reliable sources. And I know that you are not a Nordicist, but still, I am tired of the same stuff over and over again. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.231.99.88 ( talk) 11:35, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Well I am not going to make this a debate about one topic which is marginal, it was just to clarify one point. Nothing else to say. I think we agree on the basic issues in spite of these comments. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.231.19.157 ( talk) 12:15, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)
DumZiBoT ( talk) 19:22, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Is Nazarbayev a white person? I think he is a multi-racial, or a mix between white and mongolic.-- Enkiduk ( talk) 04:48, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
If we start judging who is mixed, who may be mixed, etc, we may all end up in the same lot. When does mixing start counting? One generation ago, two, five, twenty? because in fact we are all mixed. Jan.
I find no reason to do that because that is already covered at the beginning of the article. On the other, I cannot help thinking that posting pictures with comments like that is overtly racist, I mean, as if there were people of first category white, second or whatever. These types of divisions should be avoided in racial issues, in my humble opinion. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.231.23.7 ( talk) 09:16, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
that's another thing the gallery is taking away from the article its self, many of the editors who have had issue are not reading the article because they are shooting right for the gallery i have told problem editors to read the article but this still does not work and there seems to be a lack of consenus on who and who cant be included in the gallery even the article on the Black people does not have a gallery it has a couple of pics throughout the article but no gallery, it is not a nescessity to have a gallery because it is unworkable even a compromise to keep the gallery seems to be unworkable and people keep on saying its racist causeing the problems but its also ethnocentric types who cant stand that certain people can be considered white-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 17:49, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | → | Archive 25 |
Having a problem with this section because it's not offering any details on the Uruguayan census and no social definition of whiteness according to that census. It lacks any kind of relevant information about legal standards or procedures defining racial categories within the country. Instead it's just a listing of European immigration that is non constructive to the section titled Census and social definitions in different regions. CenterofGravity ( talk) 02:43, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
The Kazakhs are Mongoloid. One can't fit them even into the rather delusional definition of whites presented in the article. He isn't even part-white, since he has no notable foreign admixtures. -- Humanophage ( talk) 13:00, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
There are 11 mln Russians out of 15 mln of Kazakhstan's population, almost 60 per cent of Kazakhstan's territory belonged to Russia. But people who are called Kazakhs in Kazakhstan are Asian of mongoloid origin. They are not considered white in any way. In that case the entire Mongolia, China Viet Nam should be considered Caucasian. And please learn whats the difference between Kazakhs and RUssian Kozaks or Cossacks. Therefore, Nursulatn Nazarbayev;s pic should be deleted ASAP.
but if we dont have sources either way more editors are against leaving him in the gallery than are for that would be you ramdrake going against a consenus-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 00:10, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree he shouldn´t be in the White category even if according to genetic studies it is true that both Kazakhs and Uygurs (China) have about 20% of Caucasian genes (similar to black Americans)
Exuse me, you want me to go to Kazakhstan to interview Nazarbayev to find out his race? He can indentify himself as afro american or pacific islander, it is his business. Race is a very vague and fluid category. He, Nazarebayev, worked for Russians, all his life he served Russians , he still is their "man", and he can even identify himself Russian. Nobody cares. If Nazarbayev calls himself white that doesnt mean that the entire Altaic turkic speaking Kazakh nation should be considered a different race apart from Chinese, Mongolian, Buryat, Kirgiz, Uyghur people. I can not understand why you are trying to impose your own POW, your own opinion in wikipedia. You are a neuroscientist who has nothing to do with anthropology, ethnography and ethnopsychology. You want to convince me, a person who is from USSR who the Kazakh people are??? Now remember for now on: Kazakhs are mongoloid turkic speaking nation, whose skin colour can be white as almost all the asian peoples' skin. Nursulatan Nazarbayev is a pure Kazakh who is considered mongoloid or according to US classification of races- Asian. And if you go on with undoing and bringin back his picture to this page I have nothing to do but to ask wikipedia moderators to intervene to stop your vandalism. I can not prove that I am not a camel. You have to prove first that Nazarbayev is white, bring your own reliable resources, proving that Kazakh people are Caucasian or indoeuropean or white.--armenianNY 23:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ArmenianNY ( talk • contribs)
i am in favor of his removal his features are way to strongly mongoloid to be considered white ,in a gallery of white people-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 14:33, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Okay, so you think it is obvious. YOU think it is obvious. Sorry, your POV is not what Wikipedia is about. Our policies are our policies, and we do not make exceptions just to please your own point of view. My view as to whether Narzabaev are irrelevnt, as should be yours. Is there a notable view that we can find in a reliable source that identifies him as a white person? If so we can use his photo, whether you or I like it or not. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:54, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
This is completely ridiculous. I count something like six middle-easterners and a Kazakh in that 'gallery'. This is common sense, guys. An article on 'white people' should include white people. If you just want to piss people off for fun, the articles will be crap. I am deleting the non-white people based on simple common sense. Feichangdao ( talk) 22:14, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
your comments are useless and are not helping to resovle this-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 22:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
its not only the u.s do you have any sources that science has changed racial clasifications-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 22:37, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
For me personally, it is not a strong opinion. The original point of this particular thread was that the picture of Nursultan Nazarbaev (Kazakh) should not be included because some of the editors thought he was Asian rather than white (and I agreed with this position as well). I can see your point, and I do not think that your position is ridiculous, so I would hope you could afford the same courtesy to other editors that have a different opinion than yours. Opinion doesn't matter as much here though, so here are 3 additional references on the definition of white/caucasian race:
American Heritage Dictionary: Of or being a human racial classification distinguished especially by very light to brown skin pigmentation and straight to wavy or curly hair, and including peoples indigenous to Europe, northern Africa, western Asia, and Indian.
Random House Unabridged Dictionary: Of, pertaining to, or characteristic of one of the traditional racial divisions of humankind, marked by fair to dark skin, straight to tightly curled hair, and light to very dark eyes, and originally inhabiting Europe, parts of North Africa, western Asia, and India.
Compact Oxford English Dictionary: Relating to a broad division of humankind covering peoples from Europe, Western Asia, parts of the Indian Subcontinent and parts of North Africa" or "white-skinned; of European origin" or "relating to the region of the Caucasus in SE Europe".
Kman543210 (
talk)
23:03, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
(ec)Feichangdao, please read over our NPOV policy carefully. In the meantime, it is clear that you so fully misundersatand it that we can ignore your comments. NPOV is precisely a framework for handling disputed material and it requires that we incloude all notable points of view; this is especially important when there are disputes. If there is a dispute we comply with NPOV by providing all sides of the dispute; to silence those sides is to violate NPOV. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:22, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm totally cool with either removal or keeping Nursultan Nazarbayev, whether some people think he's "white" or some think he looks "too" much like he's from the far east is somewhat irrelevant. What we personally believe is unimportant, if there's a consensus one way or the other then I'll go with it. The point is that "white" means different things to different people, and it isn't always a so called "racial" designation. A reading of Alastair Bonnett's White Identities shows that "racial" whiteness is specifically a modern and western conception, and that non-modern and non-western conceptions of "white people" were not racially based."It is my contention that, although there were no white racial identities in pre-modern China, there were white identities. In other words, certain Chinese people employed the category "white" to help define which social collectivity they belonged to...Whiteness was associated with purity, sensitivity and beauty...Early encounters with Europeans do not appear to have disturbed Chinese white identities. Westerners were not interpreted as more authentically white than Chinese people. Indeed, many accounts emphasise the peculiar, ash-like, quality of the former's skins." Bonnet goes on to discuss pre-modern Middle Eastern concepts of whiteness "There is also evidence to suggest that, as in China, a white complexion was associated with membership of the social elite." A bit later he discusses the encounters of early European travellers with non-Europeans. "Accounts of early European travellers encountering "white people" in non-European lands are numerous. Thus, for example, we find, as a study by Reid (1994) shows, that 'Portugese conquistadores routinely describe their Gujerati or Arab antagonists as white, as well as Chinese and Ryukyuans.' The first European mission to the Qing area of china described the inhabitants as having a white appearance 'equal to the Europeans'." Bonnet gives many more examples, including early European settlers in the Americas describing native Americans as white. Pre modern European conceptions of white people were likewise not racialised. "..as in China and the Middle East, there existed cultural traditions in ancient and medieval Europe that valued the colour white as a symbol of purity, religious devotion and nobility. The pale complexion attributed to aristcrats (according to pre-modern European legend, pale enough to see their veins, hence the expression 'blue blood') provided a physical marker of their noble descent." Bonnet also states "some American commentators have also recently suggested that whiteness may, over time, be expanded in the United States to include certain East Asian American groups, such as Japanese Americans". All this arguing about people "looking white" or not is a red herring because it's based on the conditioning of people into their own cultural norms. We decided to have a gallery based on the widest possible interpretation of "white people" because it was the only way to be as inclusive as possible for all possible considerations of "whiteness". If we cannot meet our original criteria for inclusiveness (that we all agreed when we decided to reintroduce a gallery) by that I mean if we are going to only have a very narrow set of images, only showing Nordic people, and claim, as many 19th century anthropologists did that Irish and Mediterranean people are not "white", then I don't see the point of a gallery at all. This article (and Wikipedia) surely does not exist to push a single point of view of what "white" people are, it exists to include all possible points of view of what "white people" can be, depending upon context. Alun ( talk) 18:05, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I don't know, if we include the Ginger kids, we might piss off the Eric Cartman faction.
Why lobot? 218.186.67.37 ( talk) 10:52, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Just to point out that in the short time it ha been put back in service, the gallery ha attracted the following comments and actions:
All this in a mere 3 weeks. I'm just wondering if this will die down, and if not, if it's really worth the trouble to keep the gallery. Feedback is most welcome.-- Ramdrake ( talk) 12:07, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
And we may have to end up defending the gallery again and again, but any picture included should be justified and a consensus should be reached for inclusion. It's possible that one of the pictures gets replaced by another through consensus, and that's fine as long as it's done in good faith and not edit warring. In defending the gallery, we shouldn't make the assumption that each and every one of those pictures is the best examples and going to stay forever. Right now, with the exception of one, we've had a good consensus to justify them, so that's a good thing. Kman543210 ( talk) 22:19, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
This gallery is some sort of joke right? There's a fair number of people on it who are very clearly not 'White', even if they have light skin. 86.163.244.239 ( talk) 15:55, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
the so called most beautiful woman on earth is brown and not white. indians do not self identify as whitea (maybe some pathetic race-traitors do). indians are indians, even if we would fall under the caucasoid category. probably we might have the same forefathers, but thats long ago. yes, some of you are right, the therm "white" is a social construct. as the therm brown, black, red and yellow are. But I never saw an indian calling a non-indian as one of their own. it doesnt matter what colour they would have.
so therefor I wouldnt name the therm "white" to describing a south-asian. in my sense i wouldnt even call arabs as white. but thats something else, i dont want to discuss. Asian2duracell ( talk) 18:03, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
See this haplogroup map: http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf In case you do not see well, haplotype R1a is very common both in India and Europe. If you do not know what a haplogroup is read this: http://www.dnaheritage.com/masterclass2.asp
And to finish, you never heard "Indoeuropean languages".
And as far as Aishwarya Rai si concerned, she is white all right.
And this is science, not personal opinions or social opinions, both pretty stupid and ignorant all too often. Jan.
well ur map of haplotypes and haplogroups only shows.. that indians are most related to each other, than to others.
So what if R1a is commen in both places?... why are Haplogroups C, D, H and L allmost absent in Europe? which form the major part of South Asian Haplogroups.
I dont doubt that some indians or pakistanis are related to some europeans. that might be most true in the northwestern part of the subcontinent. But that doesnt make them white. "white" as you name it is a social construct, mainly to describe europeans. Some of you might know... In asia people dont use colours to describe their origin. we use our religion, caste or ethnicity.
Yes ofcourse, i've heard about the IndoEuropean languages. It's a point. But dont Native South-Americans nowadays also speak IndoEuropean Languages (Spanish/Portugese..) What makes u so sure that europeans didn't adopt these language from a small number of migrating folk? I tell you that beacause as far as i know, Sanskrit and Avestan are older than European classic languages.
As we talk about Aishwarya Rai, she is SouthIndian. Native to Karnataka. And mentioned in this article to be white are only people in the Nortwestern part of SouthAsia. Karnataka is nowhere colse to the border of Pakistan. So that makes South Indians logically as "non-whites", Ain't that true?
The problem some of you have is that you thing Caucasian=white (Maybe because of American race-laws). But whites are only a extreme pale version of caucasians. most Indians are an extreme dark version of caucasians. All others are in bewteen.
Im not here to divide people in races and colours. I just want to show you, that u cant put a whole ethnicity in a single race. As we are allready to much mixed, to do so. I think that Haplogroup-map shows what I want to tell you. Asian2duracell ( talk) 14:29, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
I remember this idiot Asian2Duracell when I was having an arguement with him on the Blacks page. He is a Tamil who was trying to push the point of view that "Brown People" start in Turkey and that African blood in southern Europeans should be ignored and all Europeans should be unconditionally considered `white' regardless of phenotype or colour (Romani are now established as a European race so by your logic they should be included as white). He also stated that Mediterannean Caucasoids include people from Southern Europe to India both North and South. So some Mediterraneans are `white' whilst others are `brown'? What the hell is he trying to make sense out of? I for one use `white' to identify a persons phenotype rather than their nationality and to a certain degree ancestry. I'm sure that looking at this image of Canadian Italian actor Pat Mastroianni http://www.patmeup.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/P1010052.jpg one can see a clear difference compared to the `Nordic' on the left. Aesthetcally they look quite distinctively different. Non-Europeans who look 'white' could include Bashar Al-Assad (Syrian), Princess Salma(Moroccan) and Omar Abullah (Indian) Pictured here in order. All of them look `whiter' than Mr Mastraionni, who would unconditionally be classed as `white' in almost all census definitions due to being of European Ancestry:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/middleeast-crisis/gfx/assad_cp_1562024.jpg
http://thailand.prd.go.th/60th/img_k_q/morocco.jpg
http://www.the-south-asian.com/Nov2001/omar-abdullah1.jpg
Asian2Duracell's logic: "Greeks are white, Turks are brown" Sorry mate! the two have been fighting and fucking each other for centuries, I challenge you to differentiate!
You're welcome. The only reason why Pat Mastrionni would be classed as `white' by REAL white Europeans is that they are afraid to be slated as Nordicists if they were to categorise him otherwise. Europe is not a fortress of racial purty. Race-mixing has been taking place for centuries. On close inspection Pat Mastrionni clearly does not Aesthetically look `white', one can even see slight negroid traits in his features. Do you think the average Joe would identify him to the police as `white' if he was a criminal suspect? I doubt it. Phenotypically Bashar, Lalla and Omar do look white and that is the issue. I guess you would class a German in Brazil as nonwhite because he/she is not From Europe.
I am a blond Briton. I wouldn't identify him as white as a criminal suspect. I would say he qualifies as "Visible Ethnic Minority", I would possibly mistake him for South Asian if I saw his face in Bradford or Oldham. Compared to your phenotype he may look `white', but you'd probably consider Halle Berry as `white' just because her mother is. The Police Ethnic Code/Identity Code in the UK identifies Mediterraneans as a separate category from `white'. I'm a campaigner for anthropological fact, not opinion. Southern Europeans are racially ambiguous. Some of them look `white' whilst others don't, simple as that. Same as if a person comes from Brazil, the U.S. or Even here in the U.K. WE ARE RACIALLY AMBIGUOUS! I know many Medierranean Europeans who do not consider themselves `white' and rightly so.
Tut-tut Mr Duracell! You're getting quite verbally agressive now! Perhaps because your POV is trying to dominate the subject. You consider both North and South Indians as `Brown' because as we have agreed, the north and south have fought and fucked each other for centuries, but Greeks are `white' and Turks as "brown' despite the same reason. I agree with you to a degree that `white' is a social concept and the rule of thumb is traditionally considered "all native Europeans as "white", but we have to both agree that looking at the blurred edges between different races, it can be hard to distinguish and people need to be taken on a case by case basis.
What we are "fucking discussing" as you've put it is my first point that I placed in the first post, that you have wanted to have things both ways, that some Mediterraneans are 'white' whilst others are 'brown", you've now shot yourself in the foot. I'm not one for pushing the POV that ALL Middle Easterners, Indians and North Africans look `white' but subjective to the individual, there are ones that do on a case by case basis. At the same time., If we dropped a dark skinned Southern European (like Mastrionni) on the streets of Cairo, Bagdad, Tehran or Lahore, I doubt he would be visibly identified as a `white' by the local population and probably would be first communicated to in their native tongues. Syria was under ancient European Empires and the Crusaders (from Britain, France Germany etc) left their genetic imprint on the population, possibly explaining why Bashar Al-Assad looks white, he could possibly claim some European heritage, the same point I made about the Brazillian German. I don't think any intelligent person, regardless of his or her ethnicity would would refer to Assad as "Brown" just because of where he comes from, nor with the Kalash of Pakistan.
Nikki Bedi (from BBCs `Desi DNA') who is half English/ half Indian talks about being called a 'bloody Paki" when she was at school. Looking at her appearance here
http://www.lovenikkibedi.com/Gallery/Nikki_Bedi_217_main.jpg, I doubt she would have been called that based on her appearance, but knowledge of her ethnicity, she looks more like a Brit than a Brownie and she's fully Caucasoid. There are ignorant people everywhere. In the UK, British Turks, Armenians and Gypsies are classed as "white" in the census. Most Gypsies have mixed with the British population and aesthetically many look `white'. The Identity code for the police is used mostly to describe people's appearance prior to the knowledge of their ethnicity being established. A dark looking Welshman could possibly be identified as "Mediterranean". Someone like
Greta Scacchi could be prercieved as `white'. Brown is also a colour metaphor often used for Hispanics, yet there is another category "white Hispanic" for those who are of full or predominantly European ancestry. Back to sqaure one, you shouldn't complain too much if there are non-European Caucasoids in the image gallery just to illustrate broader subjective concepts of the metaphor "white".
Lets' look at the various ways a person can be seen as racially "white".
1. European. I don't think anyone would deny that Europeans are generally considered "white".
2. Caucasian. A bit more tricky, who is considered Caucasian seems to depending on what criteria are used. This is more about the opinion of various physical anthropologists. If we take a look at Huxley's "races" map, we see that he thought that "Caucasisns" were a nonsense category, but that Caucasians are what he called Xanthochroi and Melanochroi: 'It is to the Xanthochroi and Melanochroi, taken together, that the absurd denomination of "Caucasian" is usually applied'.
Huxley, T. H. "
On the Geographical Distribution of the Chief Modifications of Mankind" (1870) Journal of the Ethnological Society of London
What's interesting about Huxley's map is that it is not apparent whether Finns would be considered Caucasian, after all they are partly xanthrochroi and partly mongoloid, whereas peoples from the Horn of Africa certainly are Caucasian in this map, because they are unambiguously melanochroi. Anyway, from Huxley we have a map that includes peoples from south Asia (including Sri Lanka) as Caucasian, and this also includes people from Ethiopia, the Arabian peninsula, the Levant and North Africa. Alistair Bonnet says of this sort of racial science, when applied to white people "The expansion of power legitimised and encouraged the developement of racial science...It was a semi-autonomous discourse, one capable of throwing up material that contradicted Europeans' attempt to claim an exclusive stake in whiteness. Many racial scientists drew upon cranial and linguistic investigations as well as, or instead of, skin colour to establish the boundaries of race. Sometimes these investigations were used to confirm that Europeans had sole claim to whitness....Nevertheless, a much stronger current of scientific research supported the theory that Europeans were but one expression of a wider racial group (termed, sometimes interchangeably, Caucasian, Aryan and white), a group that included peoples from Asia and North Africa. This tradition established itself as the more scholarly expression of racial science. Thus we find it propagated in nineteenth- and twentieth- century student texts."
3. Legal or state definitions. Many states have their own ways to define who belongs to which "race". The USA is the most reliable because it specifically uses the term "race", whereas many European states prefer to use the less loaded term "ethnic group", and are more likely not to define any group per se, but to allow any responded to identify as part of an ethnic group freely. In the USA it is census definitions that appear to be the most widely cited, in the 1970 census for example people from the Indian subcontinent were classified as "white".
According to this 2000 US census definition then peoples from northern and central Asia can be considered "white" in the USA, from this map it is also clear that Nursultan Nazarbayev would be deemed white. In this census subcontinental Indian people have ceased to be "white" but are classified with people from east-Asia.
I have argued that for this article to have any meaning then we need to accept that "white" has different meanings in different contexts, but that for the gallery to work we need to accept that the most inclusive definition is the only workable one. This includes accepting that people from the subcontinent of India are sometimes considered white, than North African and Middle Eastern people are also sometimes considered white, that Ethiopian and Somali people are also sometimes considered white and that central Asian people are sometimes considered white. One thing that cannot possibly work is for all editors to reject any other conception of white than their own, that way we will never get resolution. I think that all of the sources I have used above are reliable and so I propose that we accept that our own parochial concept of whiteness do not apply globally or historically. As such we need to have a broader conception of who can be white rather than a narrow conception of who is white in our own culture/society. Can we at least accept that being "white" can mean very different things to different people? Alun ( talk) 11:29, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree. Jan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.231.92.194 ( talk) 13:28, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
I propose the gallery to be divided in 2 categories. Whites of European ancestry and non European caucasoids as `Marginal Whites". This would make more logic and everyone content. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.168.242.172 ( talk) 06:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes, the caption could read something along the lines of " the following people would be considered Caucasoid by anthropological definition, but may not always be percieved as " white" by Western societies due to not being of European ancestry". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.168.242.172 ( talk) 06:17, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
It's evident that there is no clear unambiguous definition of "white", we have several, very different concepts of how humans vary about the three continents of Africa, Asia and Europe. The real rwson for no unambiguous concept is that human variation is not packaged into discrete groups or "races", but varies gradually by geography, this means that the "boundaries" between "groups" are arbitrary and largely the product of the biases of the anthropologist who decides where these "boundaries" properly should fit. None of these concepts are "correct", but all are of some utility for our discussion of what "whitness" can mean. If we are going to degenerate into claims that only certain concepts of "whiteness" are applicable to the gallery, or that only some editors are "right", whatever the sources say, then I propose that we simply dispense with the gallery as unworkable and have done with it. Alun ( talk) 10:29, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Well, first of all I am more than sick to see all the time the Nordicist propaganda everywhere, sometimes blatant, sometimes just probably unconscious. Alun says: Many geneticists think that Southern Europeans are a mixture of Paleolithic Europeans and Neolothic migrants from the Near East. Sorry block, but this is mainly a East-West issue, not a North-South one. In fact, Spaniards are believed by many geneticists to be the people in Europe with the most paleolithic ancestry, also called Iberian or Basque. See here:
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/21/7/1361/T03
Spain is referred to as IberiaS.
Or here:
http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf
Hope people know some geography.
In fact, the Spanish genome is the most frequent in most of Western Europe. See here:
http://www.dnatribes.com/sample-results/dnatribes-europa-sample-spanish.pdf
In case some do not get it, yes, the more intense the yellow colour in the map, the closer the genetic affinities with the Spanish, who still happen to represent best the primaeval Western Europeans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.231.95.188 ( talk) 21:32, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Because of the simple fact that most Western Europeans happen to be of Spanish ancestry (Or Iberian or Basque, whatever you what to call it)
See here: http://www.dnaheritage.com/masterclass2.asp
And I could continue all day.
In short, enough with the Nordicist progaganda. The people of Northern Europe are as mixed as most other people or even more, especially the Germanic area, which along with the Balcanic area is one of the most mixed in Europe. And the people with the most Paleolithic element in them are in Spain, and as far as I know Spain is in the South of Europe. All peoples are mixed. Purity is the stupid idea of Nordicism and Nazism, today pathetic for their ignorance and for other things.
So after this explanation which I find necessary in the light of the ever-going Nordicist propaganda, I agree with the pictures, because they agree with a universal description of white people, such as they have been described by numerous anthropologists and in censuses like the US that says that white people are those coming form Europe, North Africa and the Middle East. And the US census does not hold the gavel for whiteness of course, let alone a few propagandists here. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.231.95.188 ( talk) 21:02, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Right, as I said things seem much more complicated and admixture everywhere. Still the Spanish are among those with the highest Paleolithic element in them if not those with the highest, and Spain is in the South of Europe, and the North-East is distinctly different because of the Asian influence, as I am sure you know, and the Spanish or Iberian element is the most important in Western Europe and numerically in Europe as a whole. That said, I think that we basically agree with the definition these pictures give of white people as broad and based on reliable sources. And I know that you are not a Nordicist, but still, I am tired of the same stuff over and over again. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.231.99.88 ( talk) 11:35, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Well I am not going to make this a debate about one topic which is marginal, it was just to clarify one point. Nothing else to say. I think we agree on the basic issues in spite of these comments. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.231.19.157 ( talk) 12:15, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)
DumZiBoT ( talk) 19:22, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Is Nazarbayev a white person? I think he is a multi-racial, or a mix between white and mongolic.-- Enkiduk ( talk) 04:48, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
If we start judging who is mixed, who may be mixed, etc, we may all end up in the same lot. When does mixing start counting? One generation ago, two, five, twenty? because in fact we are all mixed. Jan.
I find no reason to do that because that is already covered at the beginning of the article. On the other, I cannot help thinking that posting pictures with comments like that is overtly racist, I mean, as if there were people of first category white, second or whatever. These types of divisions should be avoided in racial issues, in my humble opinion. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.231.23.7 ( talk) 09:16, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
that's another thing the gallery is taking away from the article its self, many of the editors who have had issue are not reading the article because they are shooting right for the gallery i have told problem editors to read the article but this still does not work and there seems to be a lack of consenus on who and who cant be included in the gallery even the article on the Black people does not have a gallery it has a couple of pics throughout the article but no gallery, it is not a nescessity to have a gallery because it is unworkable even a compromise to keep the gallery seems to be unworkable and people keep on saying its racist causeing the problems but its also ethnocentric types who cant stand that certain people can be considered white-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 17:49, 7 August 2008 (UTC)