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Archive 1 |
I've reverted (again) a change of User:Whiteholes [1]. Our current knowledge implies that collapsing antimatter will form black holes, not white holes. Please give your sources. -- Pjacobi 08:14, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
a star that collaspe in our part of the universe is purely made up of hydrogen and helium carbon etc. and if this star collaspe, it will form a black hole for example "cygnus-x". And NOT a white hole. but in other bubble universe, the star itself is made up of anti-hydrogen, anti-helium, anti-carbon etc. and NOT neccessrily be matter. It will be anti-matter. Anti-matter is the opposite of matter. White holes is the opposite of black holes. So it is only logical to say that an anti-matter star collaspe into a white hole and a star made up of matter will collaspe into a black hole. If you don't even know this, i suggest you do up more reading before posting here again.
It strikes me as unlikely that a white hole could collapse -- a white hole is a gravitational mirror, a perfect reflector (but not retroreflector) for all incoming material and light, as its boundary is a barrier of infinite potential energy. Neglecting anything emitted from the hole (which would very likely be moving at escape speed relative to anything already present), a large amount of matter collected around a white hole would congregate into a sphere, not growing because of its own gravity and not shrinking because of the (negative) gravity of the hole. There might conceivably be a way to pack enough matter onto it that the matter collapsed into a black hole outside the white hole, but this is distinct from the white hole somehow collapsing. Of course, on that note, how does a white hole react to normal gravity? Would a black hole near to a white hole suck it in, or be repelled itself, or simply annihilate (possibly leaving a weaker hole of one variety or the other)? -- Tardis 19:34, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I've made substantial revisions to the article in an attempt to clean it up. One point bothers me - most discussions of white holes state that they emit matter, but if they're a vacuum solution, this isn't necessarily true (any more than a black hole is required to be consuming matter as a part of its existence).
It would also be handy to have clarification on whether or not they act like they have negative mass (preferably with references cited, so this information can be added to the article). The article presently gives the impression that a white hole has positive mass. -- Christopher Thomas 09:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Somehow an energy conservation problem of black holes has emerged in this article. Can the author of this sentence please provide references? Otherwise I'll delete it. -- Pjacobi 18:00, 2005 Jun 26 (UTC)
It was in the article that I linked when I made that revision. In fact everything stems from that article. Whoever erased everything that was added, please follow up with some of the latest information from Steven Hawkingm, Michio Kaku and possibly Brian Greene. The theory goes that our universe is actually a white hole. Two membranes collide which cause matter on one of the membranes (which has centralized itself in a small section of the membrane due to a black hole forming) to be transfered to the next... creating a "wormhole" which is sort of like what we witness when we place our fingers together when we have glue on one of them. When we pull them apart, the glue is transfered but there is also a strand which gets stretched between the two fingers. The white hole of the worm hole is then really just the product of the membrane collision, its the after math of the collision. The instant of the collision is the big bang. The white hole is the universe being formed on the other membrane.
Part of my original energy conservation rant I was going to erase. The first part. The second part, was accurate however, and is how it is viewed now. It completely justifies the law. From reading the original article, the first authors stated that some argue the white hole theory goes against the second law. However, it does not. Some theorize now that this universe will die with lots of black holes. All matter eventually ends up being involved in a reduction of entropy, or the organizing of itself in a black hole, instead of being spread out through space. This goes against the second law. White holes and the collision of membranes solves that and says that the matter is then spread out even more, not only in this universe but also on an external membrane.
Actually the energy conservation problem was brought up in the article before I clarified it. My clarification was removed as well...
-- Outcomer 17:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
This whole section talking about entropy seems to fundamentally misunderstand entropy and give too much weight to the "greater entropy is greater disorder" metaphor. High entropy in systems dominated by electrochemical interactions corresponds to states with uniform distributions of particles, but enropy in systems dominated by gravitational interactions operates very differently. In systems dominated by the both attractive and repulsive electromagnetic force, these forces cancel out over long ranges, and there are a large number of equivalent states with uniform distributions of particles. Because gravity is always attractive, forces add up over long ranges, and there are a large number of equivalent states with clumps of particles (and relatively few equivalent states with uniform distributions of particles). "Disorder" is only useful as an intuitive measure of how likely a particular state is. Disordered states are numerous and more complicated to distinguish from each other; ordered states are more rare and uniquely identifiable.
Anyways, my point is that independant of the existence of white holes or their thermodynamic properties, the statements "If anything, black holes by themselves without an exit point violate the second law. Black holes are points at which entropy is reversed. The entropy that exists in our solar system is greater than that of which is in a black hole, which continues to lower entropy by engulfing and trapping everything within its grasp." are false. In particular I imagine you'd be hard pressed to find a physicist who thought that black holes lower entropy.
In fact the consensus is that black holes are objects of maximal entropy. I quote Entropy#Entropy_and_cosmology: If the universe can be considered to have generally increasing entropy, then - as Roger Penrose has pointed out - an important role in the increase is played by gravity, which causes dispersed matter to accumulate into stars, which collapse eventually into black holes. Jacob Bekenstein and Stephen Hawking have shown that black holes have the maximum possible entropy of any object of equal size. This makes them likely end points of all entropy-increasing processes, if they are totally effective matter and energy traps. Hawking has, however, recently changed his stance on this aspect. I'm not sure what precisely Hawking changed his stance regarding, but regardless it seems clear to me that black holes are regarded as having quite high entropy.
Disclaimer: my knowledge of these subjects comes almost solely from pop-sci books such as The Fabric of the Cosmos and A Brief History of Time, and from Wikipedia itself. I am not educated in the finer mathematics of these theories. Bradkittenbrink 06:43, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
My understanding was that black holes are now thought to be objects of maximal entropy, only given the fact that they perhaps lead to another universe where the matter could be transfered and therefore spread out. "To an observer" in the "immediate sense", they "seem" as if they are in fact lowering entropy. That was all my contribution was trying to say.
Not only that, but isnt also true to say that gravity, since it is now thought to come from another membrane, or at the very least from somewhere outside of our universe, is therefore an outside force, which when accumulating around our own matter and eventually causing black holes to form, is in fact a reverse of entropy in our universe, since it is the product of an outside force?
-- Outcomer 17:29, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Although I am not an expert on thermodynamics (6 years of biology/chemistry, and now pharmacy school), my understanding is that if black holes are releasing thermal radiation, then you can assume there is an increase of entropy? What I was trying to point out, was that although to the observer they appear to reverse entropy as far as dispersal goes, they are in fact sending their matter elsewhere... which could show itself here as a release of energy... going from being ordered in the singularity to disordered in the extra dimension / baby universe?
-- Outcomer 04:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Multiple people have called the recent developments section either bogus due to no references or plagiarized. This is incorrect. Look in the references section for the video on Dr. Kaku's web page before you begin hacking away at a decent article.
-- Outcomer
Video interviews of one of the pioneers of string theory isn't good enough? wow. Didn't Hawking also come to the same conclusion as Kaku in regards to Brane logy? Not really sure if there are any papers regarding this idea of wormholes being the "glue between the fingers" viewpoint of black holes and white holes and matter transfer from brane to brane.
-- Outcomer
I am a scientist as well... and I know that peer reviewed publications are what you want primarily when referencing things... HOWEVER, they are not the only things that carry weight to them. If there is no primary literature, and instead only a tertiary source, then that has to suffice. And if there is some form of primary literature, but no peer reviewed articles, that has to suffice as well. If a subject is lacking in resources, you take what you can get. You don't just say "Hmmph... there are no peer reviewed articles.... so oh well, I'll just pretend that this subject doesn't exist, and there isn't an ongoing debate about it." In medicine, of course you want to find as many peer reviewed primary sources that you can when making recommendations... But with rare diseases that lack extensive research, you don't just tell the patient "I'm sorry... the only thing I found was a bit of tertiary information on the disease... I can't treat you".
Regardless of that disagreement, I have found an article which should correlate with what Dr. Kaku was talking about.
Dymnikova IG, Dobosz A, Fil'chenkov ML, Gromov A. Universes inside a Lambda black hole. [Journal Paper] Physics Letters B, vol.506, no.3-4, 10 May 2001, pp. 351-61.
-- Outcomer
The recent developments section is a mess, IMO. I've added a couple of { { fact } } tags. If the references exist, please add them. The last sentence, about a possible link to the cosmological constant/dark energy, seems particularly suspect to me.-- 76.81.164.27 21:32, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Once again, if anyone can find Dr. Kaku's papers on this it would be nice. Before you claim the content is SUSPECT, watch his interview on the subject. HE IS THE ONE THAT SAID THIS STUFF ABOUT DARK MATTER/DARK ENERGY. THE VIDEOS HAVE BEEN PROVIDED. Until someone finds his papers (I HAVE TRIED, BUT HAVE NOT FOUND ANY) on this subject, the videos will have to do. And don't say they can't be used, because Dr. Kaku isn't going to make stuff up. And read my comments above if you want to argue about what's an acceptable source when obviously NO ONE CAN FIND ANY... yet all the top physicists are talking about it.
Before users edit things and turn stuff upside down, you need to look through all sources cited at the bottom of the page... this includes watching videos that users have provided as sources.
-- Outcomer
The article appears to contradict itself. The lead states that black holes and white holes are the same thing, but the Origin section says "The existence of white holes that are not part of a wormhole is doubtful, as they appear to violate the second law of thermodynamics." I've added a contradiction tag.-- 76.81.180.3 18:07, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Do you even think that whiteholes even exist? I don't think they exist. They can't as entropy can only increase not decrease!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! —This unsigned comment was added by 219.74.160.43 ( talk • contribs) on 04:27, 26 March 2006.
White holes can not exist because nothing is created, nothing is destroyed, everything is transformed. There would be no where for white holes to get matter from, and they couldnt get matter from black holes because they compact it and add to their mass. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.126.42.145 ( talk) 01:27, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
The article had suggested that the Big Bang was simply a white hole, as they both share the characteristic that they 'spew out matter'. This assertion is a bit silly, as the Big Bang did a lot more than spew out stuff. It created time, space, matter and energy.
This was primarily taken from a video interview with Dr. Michio Kaku, who also referenced Stephen Hawkings ideas with baby universes. The idea that a white hole "is" the big bang seems to be incorrect. The white hole definition is better defined as the product of the big bang occuring, which some think is just a colliding of membranes, one of which had a black hole on it at the center of the collision.
Lots of ideas have been revised as well as the general understanding of some of the laws of thermodynamics... especially when you now have to think 11 dimensionally. Not saying that the laws have changed, but there can be new interpretations and clarifications that can arise due to the addition of extra dimensions.
Given the fact that "no matter" and "no universe" existed on the membrane our universe exists on, the idea that a white hole created time space and everything else here is plausible. Time, as viewed from someone that "existed" here before the existence of this universe, is due to the movement initially given to and instilled into this universe, is it not? The white hole is the "sticky" new end of the transfer of matter from one membrane to the next.
A few references... http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/white_hole_030917.html http://education.guardian.co.uk/academicexperts/story/0,,1419424,00.html
I think this is the video where he touches on it. http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&n=2&videoid=641879988
-- Outcomer 17:48, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
In the 'Recent Developments' section I vaguely recognised the words and it turns out that most of that paragraph is a direct copy and paste of the first part of the introduction from this paper :
http://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0611054 . I don't know exactly what Wiki's attitude is towards copy and pasting from published papers, but I imagine it's better to not do that, do it in your own words and then use the paper as a reference.
AlphaNumeric
02:08, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Once again, I did not use that paper to write that section of the article. I came up with the wording myself after watching an interview of Dr. Michio Kaku and reading the references I wrote above. If it resembles that article, then it is by chance. I cited where I got it from in the references. WATCH THE VIDEO BEFORE YOU CLAIM PLAGIARISM AND DELETE THE ARTICLE. -- Outcomer
Couldn't time have always existed? The universe's just keeps repeating it self? and maybe space already existed. Like the areas beyond all the galaxies at this point. And a white hole could throw out energy and matter to create the rest of the universe.
The Big Bang wasn't an explosion, it was a rapid expansion of super compressed energy. That should be changed in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.126.42.145 ( talk) 01:31, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm not a physicist but it says that the existence of white holes that are not part of a wormhole is doubtful as they appear to violate the second law of thermodynamics (entropy etc.) is this right or should it be the first law of thermodynamics (energy conservation and that)? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by WikiSlasher ( talk • contribs) 06:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC).
->I think second is correct. Meaning that things are moving from non-ordered to ordered. A black hole would make disorder from order and white hole would be ordering. Think of it, you start with energy and spew out solar systems, galaxies, suns, earths maybe even planets with life forms on them. Kind of godlike -- Tommac2 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.45.240.18 ( talk) 19:24, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Also a few other thoughts that I had about it.
What would the event horizon look like?
Would a white hole have an anti-gravitational force?
What frame of time would a white hole be in? ( if a black hole is almost at time rest because of its mass would that mean that a white hole is very sped up because of its anti-mass anti-gravity?
Could there exist an exotic state of decreasing entropy?
Would things travel at faster than light? If a blackhole pulls back time / space so fast that light cant escape then reversing that would mean that light coming out of a white hole would travel at greater than the speed of light because of the pushing out of time / space. -- Tommac2 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.45.240.18 ( talk) 19:32, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Would / could a white hole look mathmatecally behave, appear as a black hole in reverse time? Since this would break the second law of thermodynamics could it be possible that an exotic condition such as the sigularity of black / white holes which already blur some conditions create a system where things tend to decrease in entropy? I guess my suggestion here is that a white hole mathmatecally would be a black hole in reverse time and between the singualarity and the event horizon there is an exotic system that naturally tends towards a decrese in entropy. Reverse-spaghettification. Spewing out stars and galaxies. -- Tommac2 ( talk) 19:11, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
The sign of the acceleration is invariant under time reversal: This does not require a citation.
Physically: If you throw a particle up from your hand, it slows down and stops, then it falls back down into your hand, the acceleration is downward. If you reverse the movie, the particle goes up from your hand, slows down, stops, then falls back down into your hand. The acceleration is still down.
Mathematically: d^2x/dt^2 is the same for the curve x(t) and x(-t). That's because it's dt^2 on the bottom.
The reason people are confused about this is because they have some Aristotelian model in their heads where Force equals velocity. The velocity changes sign under time reversal.
The time reversal of an attracting object is an attracting object. There is no citation required, because it is manifestly obvious, and can be checked by thinking. Likebox ( talk) 23:13, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
I fully concur with the last comment in that this article seems to start in the middle and end at the beginning. The only section that makes any sense at all to the 'layman' is the last section (Recent speculations). I found my way to this page from the Pulsar page, prior to that from the Black Hole Page - both of which make fascinating reading and leave the reader informed. This page leaves the reader confused and with more questions than answers - currently it detracts from ones knowledge rather than adds to it.
Having got that of my chest, it appears to be a intriguing concept, one that would be worthy of a thorough clean up by some one who knows what there talking about - any takers? 124.169.238.55 ( talk) 16:01, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
173.26.205.136 ( talk) 23:19, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Is the section titled "recent developments stating that everything the layman calls our universe is in fact a white hole? And is this white hole contained inside a black hole? It would help if someone gave a source to this information. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Eternalmatt ( talk • contribs) on 23:36, 24 March 2007.
Again, this is not the only form of reference required for topics as controversial as this. Besides, looking on that reliable sources link, the second sentence stands out: "This page is a guideline, not a policy, and is mandatory only insofar as it repeats material from policy pages." Guidelines is the key word. Rules and guidelines are different.
I'm deleting the Recent developments section, since it has a "citation needed" tag, and my inderstanding is that WP users are encouraged to delete unsourced claims if they think they're wrong. Putting a link to a video in the references section just doesn't cut it. It seems clear from the talk page that there is a consensus that there was a problem with this section, and only one user keeps pushing it. It's incumbent on that user to build a change in consensus by doing a better job of documenting the claim.-- 76.81.180.3 18:09, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Not cool.Dr. Kaku does have a paper. Why doesn't someone add it so we can keep that section?
Besides I added a citation and someone removed the link to it... It's still in the references section. Learn to read the entire discussion before you start deleting things. You shouldn't just delete information that quick. Especially when we all know the info was taken right from Dr. Kaku's mouth. Just because we can't find his papers, doesn't mean you delete the info. There is another reference there! Silly. I added the superscript reference number to the end of the paragraph. Not sure how to actually link it to the references section (hyperlink I mean).
BUT SOMEONE FIND HIS PAPERS ON THIS SUBJECT. ONE REFERENCE IS ALREADY THERE. SOMEONE FIND OTHERS. Stop debating this and get it done. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.119.86.169 ( talk) 01:10, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
I assume his idea of white holes is incorrect by simple reasoning. If a blackhole on the other side contains a new univese for which it turns out to be a whitehole (big bang event). Then all universes would have such an origin. Lets assume it for a moment, such universe would have no origin to explain particle creation, because there was always a universe before it. If there was indeed such time-loop for universes it would mean it would repeat for ever.
If that was true, also our universe is just a result of such repeating. However our universe contains many blackholes, so it would mean every universe would contain endless baby universes. But such a system would end up almost empty since you cannt devide universes for ever into sub universes. Well it might be possible but then the chance that our universe would contain anything would be close to zero, and thats not how our universe looks like.
Or do i hit some kind of paradox here ?
82.217.143.153 (
talk)
11:27, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
The use of membranes as the point of matter transfer solves some of the endless loop paradox... but then again, when dealing with extra dimensions, some things that seem paradoxical to us due to our 3D nature are actually solved in extra dimensions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.150.134.2 ( talk) 19:00, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Added a reference to point to a paper done by "Nikodem J. Popławskia, Department of Physics, Indiana University". Because of Wikipedias reference rules on "Sites requiring registration" the link is pointing to the news artical at IU website that links to the full papper. If This is an error on my part the paper can be found at [4] while the IU article is [5]. A Small excerpt from the papers abstract description. "These results suggest that observed astrophysical black holes may be Einstein–Rosen bridges, each with a new universe inside that formed simultaneously with the black hole. Accordingly, our own Universe may be the interior of a black hole existing inside another universe." -- Cory Mar. ( talk) 14:56, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
Would someone please put a theorized image of a white hole? I would, but I dont have any program that would allow me to do that. - Aurora ( talk) 18:25, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
Agree, if not image, its not real. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.52.185.146 ( talk) 02:25, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
This article several times refers to images on another website. It makes me wonder how strongly it violates principles of no original research and whether it should really be included in an open encyclopedia. At the very least, it's terribly written. DAVilla ( talk) 18:44, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
'universe was created by a white hole from another universe' is that true? was the big bang only a mere white hole?ronitd 09:16, 25 March 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronitd ( talk • contribs)
The entire article seems to be quoting many things as fact that are barely even theories. Other than the ridiculousness of using a parallel universe traveling theory in the opening paragraph of a scientific page, the way the third paragraph is phrased makes it sound like Hawking was arguing for the existence of white holes, rather than exactly the opposite. While the concept of a white hole may be theoretical, this entire page reads like bad sci-fi, with very little scientific basis. The entire article seems to be based on parallel universes, yet neglects to mention that fact. The second paragraph in the origin section flat out states that there are two universes, like it is common accepted fact. The third tells how black and white holes connect the two. Other than saying hypothetical in the first sentence the entire thing is written as absolute statements of fact. It feels like the author(s) were trying to use big words to sound impressive and bog the entire article down so no one can understand what was going on or would look close enough to see there was little to no scientific basis for anything in it. Most of the pages it links to aren't really related or link to a single professor's highly dated fan page. Perhaps this was written by a student of his?
The entire origin section also seems to be just copy/pasted from the wormhole page about Schwarzschild wormholes.
Is there anyone who knows enough about white holes that can at least clean it up a bit? Take a look at the dark matter page for what I'm trying to say it should look like. This doesn't really even explain the basic idea of white holes very well, contradicts itself every few lines, and is so far from the level of every other page I've seen relating to the field of theoretical physics that I can't believe its gone unnoticed for such a long time. I would rewrite it myself, but I know little about white holes, certainly not enough to put together a proper page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.16.148.242 ( talk) 03:54, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
This needs more information on previous uses of white holes that have since been ruled invalid. I remember reading theories about the nature of quasars that some researchers postulated were white holes. (about the era of tired light, and other explainations of the power of them) 70.49.126.190 ( talk) 04:09, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
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i wish to address the [how?] in the third paragraph of the introduction to this page. a brief mention of time symmetries of nature - see symmetries in physics - would explain how a white hole is equivalent to a time reversed black hole. we could alude to anti-particles being equivalent to their particles travelling backwards in time to help visualise this.
also, this page should not be a high-importance page for the physics project, especially as it is low in the astronomy one where we expect more importance.
Could someone write an introduction that is easier to understand for the non-physicists? "Theoretical time reversal", "acceleration is invariant", "behavior at the horizon"... uh?
C'mon, guys, Wikipedia serves a much larger population than academics. I'm an engineer and I barely made through the first paragraph and gave up on the second. Despite my curiosity about what in the world is a white hole and what creates one, this article was of no help to me. Some volunteer to write an easier introduction, please? Thanks a lot! :) Fbastos7 ( talk) 20:33, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
I was watching a special on the Big Bang ( part of The Universe series ). As they spoke it seemed all of the claims they made could also be applied to a white hole.
From my understanding they claimed that people found out that the universe was expanding and logically they were able to calculate when the universe was a singularity. They claimed that the entire universe was once a point smaller than an electron.
Then they discussed that seeing that the universe is expanding crushed the idea of a steady state universe.
However could the proof of the big bang be the same proof as a white hole / black hole pairs and indeed a steady state universe?
What are the differences of the big bang and a big white hole?
--
Tommac2 —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
69.249.66.67 (
talk)
04:51, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
No, there is tons of radiation (in the form of Gamma ray) being emitted from black holes... I think you meant light >.< 68.185.167.117 ( talk) 14:39, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
It is absolutely sure that our universe looks like black hole from outside. That is easy to prove – it definitely contain some mass. In Big Bang all this mass was together, meaning it was inside Black Hole. As nothing can escape Black Hole, the only possibility is that it is still inside.
Someone here (82.217.143.153) points out that if it is so then all mass/energy will be separated into increasing number of daughter Black Holes/Universes and they finally contain nothing. That will not be the cease, Black Hole most contain some mass, it cannot form without. And Black holes will collide and merge eventually. Meaning Universe as a whole can merge with another. Interesting conclusion is also that Big Bang was not singularity, it had final dimensions (of forming Black Hole) and there exists also before. Inflation is probably not needed in this model.
I do not think it needs any extra dimensions, space-time is something that is just created. Every Black Hole have infinite space inside – light that tray to escape travel infinite time and it go somewhere all this time cowering real distance! That is true with usual mass also, whenever it is told that time slows down near mass it actually mean that light seems to slow down as there is more space to cover as by flat geometry should be. Tarmkal ( talk) 18:40, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Please someone find: "2011 paper argues" about a white hole related to big bang or something of that nature--but there is a 2012 study cited after (which I don't think is the same paper mentioned). Can someone find and insert the proper citation? Adamaero ( talk) 01:48, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
Why does "Eternal black holes" link to /info/en/?search=Kruskal%E2%80%93Szekeres_coordinates ? That article mentions nothing about eternal black holes. Fresheneesz ( talk) 21:24, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
Added some more to justify why people believe in white holes in the first place. I think maintaining energy conservation for the whole universe (thought of as a closed system) is the main reason. The Big Bang theory essentially proposes that the universe was created from a white hole , but that doesn't mean that there must still exist other smaller white holes in our universe. Penrose (Emperor's New Mind) discusses the controversies of white holes in some depth. Might have to read that again ! Mpatel 08:30, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
I think this white hole page should mention GRB 060614, which has it's own wikipedia page and is believed to be a white hole. It's a gamma ray burst that happened on June 14(15?), 2006. 110.175.105.29 ( talk) 09:30, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
Full disclosure: I am not an expert on white holes or astronomy. However, I do study physics for a living and actively do research. I've heard of white holes, but never heard, for example, that they decrease entropy. There's no math or source provided to back up this claims and it sounds like a layman's speculation to me. Why would a white hole decrease entropy? If it's adding particles and energy to the universe, it's almost certainly increasing entropy. Why? ds = dq/dt. As it's pouring heat into a cold environment, the entropy is going up, as is the complexity of the system given the extra particles / energy.
Worst of all - this spurious claim is now being spouted by articles and websites across the web. I'll plan on editing and removing such claims unless someone can offer counter evidence - which I'd be more than happy to consider. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Artifexr ( talk • contribs) 21:31, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
Would a white hole violate thermodynamics any more than a black hole would? Who said anything would have to actually be falling out of it? - Leperous
If black holes converted matter et al to pure energy (very high temperatures), would a white hole work within the bounds of the 2nd law of thermodynamics if the energy was converted to space?
Could white holes, in creating space, account for the apparent, accelerating expanding universe?
I believe that the law of thermodynamics being broken is the second which is about entropy. Which to my knowledge means that things tend to become less ordered. Not more ordered. A black hole destroys ordered objects a white hole would order objects ... Think about a complex system ... maybe even one with life popping out of a white hole being made of nothing. Wow ... kind of godlike huh? Before reading your questions I posted below that could a system of decreasing entropy exist in the area that would correlate to the part beneath the event horizon of a black hole? This would certainly be an exotic. But it is my opinion that black holes / white holes are exotic in nature anyway. --
Tommac2 (
talk)
19:19, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
The Big Bang-Bit Bang/Supermassive White Hole along with black holes are singularities where the laws of physics breakdown. 73.85.207.82 ( talk) 18:37, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
I added... The Big Bang 13.8 billion years ago may be thought of as a supermassive white hole that was the result of a supermassive black hole at the heart of a galaxy in our parent universe. 2601:580:10C:ECC7:9CA0:DAA2:974B:E7BA ( talk) 22:15, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
I added this to the opening paragraph... Some have hypothesized that the two singularities of general relativity - the Big Bang and black holes - are connected through a supermassive white hole spawned by a supermassive black hole at the heart of a galaxy in our parent universe. 2601:580:10B:CE66:ACB2:A6BB:7C88:68EA ( talk) 15:18, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
In the "Overview" section, the first paragraph ends with this:
Imagine a gravitational field, without a surface. Acceleration due to gravity is the greatest on the surface of any body. But since black holes lack a surface, acceleration due to gravity increases exponentially, but never reaches a final value as there is no considered surface in a singularity.
Not only is it completely unrelated to everything around it, it seems to just want to say that the force of gravity (and therefore acceleration) will get stronger the closer you are to the center of mass. Here I am just going by classical mechanics, which is not what this article is about, but it seems this sentence might be. Why even invoke a "surface"? The whole thing seems strange to me.-- Ribidag ( talk) 12:40, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
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Archive 1 |
I've reverted (again) a change of User:Whiteholes [1]. Our current knowledge implies that collapsing antimatter will form black holes, not white holes. Please give your sources. -- Pjacobi 08:14, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
a star that collaspe in our part of the universe is purely made up of hydrogen and helium carbon etc. and if this star collaspe, it will form a black hole for example "cygnus-x". And NOT a white hole. but in other bubble universe, the star itself is made up of anti-hydrogen, anti-helium, anti-carbon etc. and NOT neccessrily be matter. It will be anti-matter. Anti-matter is the opposite of matter. White holes is the opposite of black holes. So it is only logical to say that an anti-matter star collaspe into a white hole and a star made up of matter will collaspe into a black hole. If you don't even know this, i suggest you do up more reading before posting here again.
It strikes me as unlikely that a white hole could collapse -- a white hole is a gravitational mirror, a perfect reflector (but not retroreflector) for all incoming material and light, as its boundary is a barrier of infinite potential energy. Neglecting anything emitted from the hole (which would very likely be moving at escape speed relative to anything already present), a large amount of matter collected around a white hole would congregate into a sphere, not growing because of its own gravity and not shrinking because of the (negative) gravity of the hole. There might conceivably be a way to pack enough matter onto it that the matter collapsed into a black hole outside the white hole, but this is distinct from the white hole somehow collapsing. Of course, on that note, how does a white hole react to normal gravity? Would a black hole near to a white hole suck it in, or be repelled itself, or simply annihilate (possibly leaving a weaker hole of one variety or the other)? -- Tardis 19:34, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I've made substantial revisions to the article in an attempt to clean it up. One point bothers me - most discussions of white holes state that they emit matter, but if they're a vacuum solution, this isn't necessarily true (any more than a black hole is required to be consuming matter as a part of its existence).
It would also be handy to have clarification on whether or not they act like they have negative mass (preferably with references cited, so this information can be added to the article). The article presently gives the impression that a white hole has positive mass. -- Christopher Thomas 09:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Somehow an energy conservation problem of black holes has emerged in this article. Can the author of this sentence please provide references? Otherwise I'll delete it. -- Pjacobi 18:00, 2005 Jun 26 (UTC)
It was in the article that I linked when I made that revision. In fact everything stems from that article. Whoever erased everything that was added, please follow up with some of the latest information from Steven Hawkingm, Michio Kaku and possibly Brian Greene. The theory goes that our universe is actually a white hole. Two membranes collide which cause matter on one of the membranes (which has centralized itself in a small section of the membrane due to a black hole forming) to be transfered to the next... creating a "wormhole" which is sort of like what we witness when we place our fingers together when we have glue on one of them. When we pull them apart, the glue is transfered but there is also a strand which gets stretched between the two fingers. The white hole of the worm hole is then really just the product of the membrane collision, its the after math of the collision. The instant of the collision is the big bang. The white hole is the universe being formed on the other membrane.
Part of my original energy conservation rant I was going to erase. The first part. The second part, was accurate however, and is how it is viewed now. It completely justifies the law. From reading the original article, the first authors stated that some argue the white hole theory goes against the second law. However, it does not. Some theorize now that this universe will die with lots of black holes. All matter eventually ends up being involved in a reduction of entropy, or the organizing of itself in a black hole, instead of being spread out through space. This goes against the second law. White holes and the collision of membranes solves that and says that the matter is then spread out even more, not only in this universe but also on an external membrane.
Actually the energy conservation problem was brought up in the article before I clarified it. My clarification was removed as well...
-- Outcomer 17:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
This whole section talking about entropy seems to fundamentally misunderstand entropy and give too much weight to the "greater entropy is greater disorder" metaphor. High entropy in systems dominated by electrochemical interactions corresponds to states with uniform distributions of particles, but enropy in systems dominated by gravitational interactions operates very differently. In systems dominated by the both attractive and repulsive electromagnetic force, these forces cancel out over long ranges, and there are a large number of equivalent states with uniform distributions of particles. Because gravity is always attractive, forces add up over long ranges, and there are a large number of equivalent states with clumps of particles (and relatively few equivalent states with uniform distributions of particles). "Disorder" is only useful as an intuitive measure of how likely a particular state is. Disordered states are numerous and more complicated to distinguish from each other; ordered states are more rare and uniquely identifiable.
Anyways, my point is that independant of the existence of white holes or their thermodynamic properties, the statements "If anything, black holes by themselves without an exit point violate the second law. Black holes are points at which entropy is reversed. The entropy that exists in our solar system is greater than that of which is in a black hole, which continues to lower entropy by engulfing and trapping everything within its grasp." are false. In particular I imagine you'd be hard pressed to find a physicist who thought that black holes lower entropy.
In fact the consensus is that black holes are objects of maximal entropy. I quote Entropy#Entropy_and_cosmology: If the universe can be considered to have generally increasing entropy, then - as Roger Penrose has pointed out - an important role in the increase is played by gravity, which causes dispersed matter to accumulate into stars, which collapse eventually into black holes. Jacob Bekenstein and Stephen Hawking have shown that black holes have the maximum possible entropy of any object of equal size. This makes them likely end points of all entropy-increasing processes, if they are totally effective matter and energy traps. Hawking has, however, recently changed his stance on this aspect. I'm not sure what precisely Hawking changed his stance regarding, but regardless it seems clear to me that black holes are regarded as having quite high entropy.
Disclaimer: my knowledge of these subjects comes almost solely from pop-sci books such as The Fabric of the Cosmos and A Brief History of Time, and from Wikipedia itself. I am not educated in the finer mathematics of these theories. Bradkittenbrink 06:43, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
My understanding was that black holes are now thought to be objects of maximal entropy, only given the fact that they perhaps lead to another universe where the matter could be transfered and therefore spread out. "To an observer" in the "immediate sense", they "seem" as if they are in fact lowering entropy. That was all my contribution was trying to say.
Not only that, but isnt also true to say that gravity, since it is now thought to come from another membrane, or at the very least from somewhere outside of our universe, is therefore an outside force, which when accumulating around our own matter and eventually causing black holes to form, is in fact a reverse of entropy in our universe, since it is the product of an outside force?
-- Outcomer 17:29, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Although I am not an expert on thermodynamics (6 years of biology/chemistry, and now pharmacy school), my understanding is that if black holes are releasing thermal radiation, then you can assume there is an increase of entropy? What I was trying to point out, was that although to the observer they appear to reverse entropy as far as dispersal goes, they are in fact sending their matter elsewhere... which could show itself here as a release of energy... going from being ordered in the singularity to disordered in the extra dimension / baby universe?
-- Outcomer 04:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Multiple people have called the recent developments section either bogus due to no references or plagiarized. This is incorrect. Look in the references section for the video on Dr. Kaku's web page before you begin hacking away at a decent article.
-- Outcomer
Video interviews of one of the pioneers of string theory isn't good enough? wow. Didn't Hawking also come to the same conclusion as Kaku in regards to Brane logy? Not really sure if there are any papers regarding this idea of wormholes being the "glue between the fingers" viewpoint of black holes and white holes and matter transfer from brane to brane.
-- Outcomer
I am a scientist as well... and I know that peer reviewed publications are what you want primarily when referencing things... HOWEVER, they are not the only things that carry weight to them. If there is no primary literature, and instead only a tertiary source, then that has to suffice. And if there is some form of primary literature, but no peer reviewed articles, that has to suffice as well. If a subject is lacking in resources, you take what you can get. You don't just say "Hmmph... there are no peer reviewed articles.... so oh well, I'll just pretend that this subject doesn't exist, and there isn't an ongoing debate about it." In medicine, of course you want to find as many peer reviewed primary sources that you can when making recommendations... But with rare diseases that lack extensive research, you don't just tell the patient "I'm sorry... the only thing I found was a bit of tertiary information on the disease... I can't treat you".
Regardless of that disagreement, I have found an article which should correlate with what Dr. Kaku was talking about.
Dymnikova IG, Dobosz A, Fil'chenkov ML, Gromov A. Universes inside a Lambda black hole. [Journal Paper] Physics Letters B, vol.506, no.3-4, 10 May 2001, pp. 351-61.
-- Outcomer
The recent developments section is a mess, IMO. I've added a couple of { { fact } } tags. If the references exist, please add them. The last sentence, about a possible link to the cosmological constant/dark energy, seems particularly suspect to me.-- 76.81.164.27 21:32, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Once again, if anyone can find Dr. Kaku's papers on this it would be nice. Before you claim the content is SUSPECT, watch his interview on the subject. HE IS THE ONE THAT SAID THIS STUFF ABOUT DARK MATTER/DARK ENERGY. THE VIDEOS HAVE BEEN PROVIDED. Until someone finds his papers (I HAVE TRIED, BUT HAVE NOT FOUND ANY) on this subject, the videos will have to do. And don't say they can't be used, because Dr. Kaku isn't going to make stuff up. And read my comments above if you want to argue about what's an acceptable source when obviously NO ONE CAN FIND ANY... yet all the top physicists are talking about it.
Before users edit things and turn stuff upside down, you need to look through all sources cited at the bottom of the page... this includes watching videos that users have provided as sources.
-- Outcomer
The article appears to contradict itself. The lead states that black holes and white holes are the same thing, but the Origin section says "The existence of white holes that are not part of a wormhole is doubtful, as they appear to violate the second law of thermodynamics." I've added a contradiction tag.-- 76.81.180.3 18:07, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Do you even think that whiteholes even exist? I don't think they exist. They can't as entropy can only increase not decrease!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! —This unsigned comment was added by 219.74.160.43 ( talk • contribs) on 04:27, 26 March 2006.
White holes can not exist because nothing is created, nothing is destroyed, everything is transformed. There would be no where for white holes to get matter from, and they couldnt get matter from black holes because they compact it and add to their mass. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.126.42.145 ( talk) 01:27, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
The article had suggested that the Big Bang was simply a white hole, as they both share the characteristic that they 'spew out matter'. This assertion is a bit silly, as the Big Bang did a lot more than spew out stuff. It created time, space, matter and energy.
This was primarily taken from a video interview with Dr. Michio Kaku, who also referenced Stephen Hawkings ideas with baby universes. The idea that a white hole "is" the big bang seems to be incorrect. The white hole definition is better defined as the product of the big bang occuring, which some think is just a colliding of membranes, one of which had a black hole on it at the center of the collision.
Lots of ideas have been revised as well as the general understanding of some of the laws of thermodynamics... especially when you now have to think 11 dimensionally. Not saying that the laws have changed, but there can be new interpretations and clarifications that can arise due to the addition of extra dimensions.
Given the fact that "no matter" and "no universe" existed on the membrane our universe exists on, the idea that a white hole created time space and everything else here is plausible. Time, as viewed from someone that "existed" here before the existence of this universe, is due to the movement initially given to and instilled into this universe, is it not? The white hole is the "sticky" new end of the transfer of matter from one membrane to the next.
A few references... http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/white_hole_030917.html http://education.guardian.co.uk/academicexperts/story/0,,1419424,00.html
I think this is the video where he touches on it. http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&n=2&videoid=641879988
-- Outcomer 17:48, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
In the 'Recent Developments' section I vaguely recognised the words and it turns out that most of that paragraph is a direct copy and paste of the first part of the introduction from this paper :
http://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0611054 . I don't know exactly what Wiki's attitude is towards copy and pasting from published papers, but I imagine it's better to not do that, do it in your own words and then use the paper as a reference.
AlphaNumeric
02:08, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Once again, I did not use that paper to write that section of the article. I came up with the wording myself after watching an interview of Dr. Michio Kaku and reading the references I wrote above. If it resembles that article, then it is by chance. I cited where I got it from in the references. WATCH THE VIDEO BEFORE YOU CLAIM PLAGIARISM AND DELETE THE ARTICLE. -- Outcomer
Couldn't time have always existed? The universe's just keeps repeating it self? and maybe space already existed. Like the areas beyond all the galaxies at this point. And a white hole could throw out energy and matter to create the rest of the universe.
The Big Bang wasn't an explosion, it was a rapid expansion of super compressed energy. That should be changed in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.126.42.145 ( talk) 01:31, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm not a physicist but it says that the existence of white holes that are not part of a wormhole is doubtful as they appear to violate the second law of thermodynamics (entropy etc.) is this right or should it be the first law of thermodynamics (energy conservation and that)? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by WikiSlasher ( talk • contribs) 06:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC).
->I think second is correct. Meaning that things are moving from non-ordered to ordered. A black hole would make disorder from order and white hole would be ordering. Think of it, you start with energy and spew out solar systems, galaxies, suns, earths maybe even planets with life forms on them. Kind of godlike -- Tommac2 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.45.240.18 ( talk) 19:24, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Also a few other thoughts that I had about it.
What would the event horizon look like?
Would a white hole have an anti-gravitational force?
What frame of time would a white hole be in? ( if a black hole is almost at time rest because of its mass would that mean that a white hole is very sped up because of its anti-mass anti-gravity?
Could there exist an exotic state of decreasing entropy?
Would things travel at faster than light? If a blackhole pulls back time / space so fast that light cant escape then reversing that would mean that light coming out of a white hole would travel at greater than the speed of light because of the pushing out of time / space. -- Tommac2 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.45.240.18 ( talk) 19:32, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Would / could a white hole look mathmatecally behave, appear as a black hole in reverse time? Since this would break the second law of thermodynamics could it be possible that an exotic condition such as the sigularity of black / white holes which already blur some conditions create a system where things tend to decrease in entropy? I guess my suggestion here is that a white hole mathmatecally would be a black hole in reverse time and between the singualarity and the event horizon there is an exotic system that naturally tends towards a decrese in entropy. Reverse-spaghettification. Spewing out stars and galaxies. -- Tommac2 ( talk) 19:11, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
The sign of the acceleration is invariant under time reversal: This does not require a citation.
Physically: If you throw a particle up from your hand, it slows down and stops, then it falls back down into your hand, the acceleration is downward. If you reverse the movie, the particle goes up from your hand, slows down, stops, then falls back down into your hand. The acceleration is still down.
Mathematically: d^2x/dt^2 is the same for the curve x(t) and x(-t). That's because it's dt^2 on the bottom.
The reason people are confused about this is because they have some Aristotelian model in their heads where Force equals velocity. The velocity changes sign under time reversal.
The time reversal of an attracting object is an attracting object. There is no citation required, because it is manifestly obvious, and can be checked by thinking. Likebox ( talk) 23:13, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
I fully concur with the last comment in that this article seems to start in the middle and end at the beginning. The only section that makes any sense at all to the 'layman' is the last section (Recent speculations). I found my way to this page from the Pulsar page, prior to that from the Black Hole Page - both of which make fascinating reading and leave the reader informed. This page leaves the reader confused and with more questions than answers - currently it detracts from ones knowledge rather than adds to it.
Having got that of my chest, it appears to be a intriguing concept, one that would be worthy of a thorough clean up by some one who knows what there talking about - any takers? 124.169.238.55 ( talk) 16:01, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
173.26.205.136 ( talk) 23:19, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Is the section titled "recent developments stating that everything the layman calls our universe is in fact a white hole? And is this white hole contained inside a black hole? It would help if someone gave a source to this information. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Eternalmatt ( talk • contribs) on 23:36, 24 March 2007.
Again, this is not the only form of reference required for topics as controversial as this. Besides, looking on that reliable sources link, the second sentence stands out: "This page is a guideline, not a policy, and is mandatory only insofar as it repeats material from policy pages." Guidelines is the key word. Rules and guidelines are different.
I'm deleting the Recent developments section, since it has a "citation needed" tag, and my inderstanding is that WP users are encouraged to delete unsourced claims if they think they're wrong. Putting a link to a video in the references section just doesn't cut it. It seems clear from the talk page that there is a consensus that there was a problem with this section, and only one user keeps pushing it. It's incumbent on that user to build a change in consensus by doing a better job of documenting the claim.-- 76.81.180.3 18:09, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Not cool.Dr. Kaku does have a paper. Why doesn't someone add it so we can keep that section?
Besides I added a citation and someone removed the link to it... It's still in the references section. Learn to read the entire discussion before you start deleting things. You shouldn't just delete information that quick. Especially when we all know the info was taken right from Dr. Kaku's mouth. Just because we can't find his papers, doesn't mean you delete the info. There is another reference there! Silly. I added the superscript reference number to the end of the paragraph. Not sure how to actually link it to the references section (hyperlink I mean).
BUT SOMEONE FIND HIS PAPERS ON THIS SUBJECT. ONE REFERENCE IS ALREADY THERE. SOMEONE FIND OTHERS. Stop debating this and get it done. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.119.86.169 ( talk) 01:10, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
I assume his idea of white holes is incorrect by simple reasoning. If a blackhole on the other side contains a new univese for which it turns out to be a whitehole (big bang event). Then all universes would have such an origin. Lets assume it for a moment, such universe would have no origin to explain particle creation, because there was always a universe before it. If there was indeed such time-loop for universes it would mean it would repeat for ever.
If that was true, also our universe is just a result of such repeating. However our universe contains many blackholes, so it would mean every universe would contain endless baby universes. But such a system would end up almost empty since you cannt devide universes for ever into sub universes. Well it might be possible but then the chance that our universe would contain anything would be close to zero, and thats not how our universe looks like.
Or do i hit some kind of paradox here ?
82.217.143.153 (
talk)
11:27, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
The use of membranes as the point of matter transfer solves some of the endless loop paradox... but then again, when dealing with extra dimensions, some things that seem paradoxical to us due to our 3D nature are actually solved in extra dimensions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.150.134.2 ( talk) 19:00, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Added a reference to point to a paper done by "Nikodem J. Popławskia, Department of Physics, Indiana University". Because of Wikipedias reference rules on "Sites requiring registration" the link is pointing to the news artical at IU website that links to the full papper. If This is an error on my part the paper can be found at [4] while the IU article is [5]. A Small excerpt from the papers abstract description. "These results suggest that observed astrophysical black holes may be Einstein–Rosen bridges, each with a new universe inside that formed simultaneously with the black hole. Accordingly, our own Universe may be the interior of a black hole existing inside another universe." -- Cory Mar. ( talk) 14:56, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
Would someone please put a theorized image of a white hole? I would, but I dont have any program that would allow me to do that. - Aurora ( talk) 18:25, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
Agree, if not image, its not real. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.52.185.146 ( talk) 02:25, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
This article several times refers to images on another website. It makes me wonder how strongly it violates principles of no original research and whether it should really be included in an open encyclopedia. At the very least, it's terribly written. DAVilla ( talk) 18:44, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
'universe was created by a white hole from another universe' is that true? was the big bang only a mere white hole?ronitd 09:16, 25 March 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronitd ( talk • contribs)
The entire article seems to be quoting many things as fact that are barely even theories. Other than the ridiculousness of using a parallel universe traveling theory in the opening paragraph of a scientific page, the way the third paragraph is phrased makes it sound like Hawking was arguing for the existence of white holes, rather than exactly the opposite. While the concept of a white hole may be theoretical, this entire page reads like bad sci-fi, with very little scientific basis. The entire article seems to be based on parallel universes, yet neglects to mention that fact. The second paragraph in the origin section flat out states that there are two universes, like it is common accepted fact. The third tells how black and white holes connect the two. Other than saying hypothetical in the first sentence the entire thing is written as absolute statements of fact. It feels like the author(s) were trying to use big words to sound impressive and bog the entire article down so no one can understand what was going on or would look close enough to see there was little to no scientific basis for anything in it. Most of the pages it links to aren't really related or link to a single professor's highly dated fan page. Perhaps this was written by a student of his?
The entire origin section also seems to be just copy/pasted from the wormhole page about Schwarzschild wormholes.
Is there anyone who knows enough about white holes that can at least clean it up a bit? Take a look at the dark matter page for what I'm trying to say it should look like. This doesn't really even explain the basic idea of white holes very well, contradicts itself every few lines, and is so far from the level of every other page I've seen relating to the field of theoretical physics that I can't believe its gone unnoticed for such a long time. I would rewrite it myself, but I know little about white holes, certainly not enough to put together a proper page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.16.148.242 ( talk) 03:54, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
This needs more information on previous uses of white holes that have since been ruled invalid. I remember reading theories about the nature of quasars that some researchers postulated were white holes. (about the era of tired light, and other explainations of the power of them) 70.49.126.190 ( talk) 04:09, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
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i wish to address the [how?] in the third paragraph of the introduction to this page. a brief mention of time symmetries of nature - see symmetries in physics - would explain how a white hole is equivalent to a time reversed black hole. we could alude to anti-particles being equivalent to their particles travelling backwards in time to help visualise this.
also, this page should not be a high-importance page for the physics project, especially as it is low in the astronomy one where we expect more importance.
Could someone write an introduction that is easier to understand for the non-physicists? "Theoretical time reversal", "acceleration is invariant", "behavior at the horizon"... uh?
C'mon, guys, Wikipedia serves a much larger population than academics. I'm an engineer and I barely made through the first paragraph and gave up on the second. Despite my curiosity about what in the world is a white hole and what creates one, this article was of no help to me. Some volunteer to write an easier introduction, please? Thanks a lot! :) Fbastos7 ( talk) 20:33, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
I was watching a special on the Big Bang ( part of The Universe series ). As they spoke it seemed all of the claims they made could also be applied to a white hole.
From my understanding they claimed that people found out that the universe was expanding and logically they were able to calculate when the universe was a singularity. They claimed that the entire universe was once a point smaller than an electron.
Then they discussed that seeing that the universe is expanding crushed the idea of a steady state universe.
However could the proof of the big bang be the same proof as a white hole / black hole pairs and indeed a steady state universe?
What are the differences of the big bang and a big white hole?
--
Tommac2 —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
69.249.66.67 (
talk)
04:51, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
No, there is tons of radiation (in the form of Gamma ray) being emitted from black holes... I think you meant light >.< 68.185.167.117 ( talk) 14:39, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
It is absolutely sure that our universe looks like black hole from outside. That is easy to prove – it definitely contain some mass. In Big Bang all this mass was together, meaning it was inside Black Hole. As nothing can escape Black Hole, the only possibility is that it is still inside.
Someone here (82.217.143.153) points out that if it is so then all mass/energy will be separated into increasing number of daughter Black Holes/Universes and they finally contain nothing. That will not be the cease, Black Hole most contain some mass, it cannot form without. And Black holes will collide and merge eventually. Meaning Universe as a whole can merge with another. Interesting conclusion is also that Big Bang was not singularity, it had final dimensions (of forming Black Hole) and there exists also before. Inflation is probably not needed in this model.
I do not think it needs any extra dimensions, space-time is something that is just created. Every Black Hole have infinite space inside – light that tray to escape travel infinite time and it go somewhere all this time cowering real distance! That is true with usual mass also, whenever it is told that time slows down near mass it actually mean that light seems to slow down as there is more space to cover as by flat geometry should be. Tarmkal ( talk) 18:40, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Please someone find: "2011 paper argues" about a white hole related to big bang or something of that nature--but there is a 2012 study cited after (which I don't think is the same paper mentioned). Can someone find and insert the proper citation? Adamaero ( talk) 01:48, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
Why does "Eternal black holes" link to /info/en/?search=Kruskal%E2%80%93Szekeres_coordinates ? That article mentions nothing about eternal black holes. Fresheneesz ( talk) 21:24, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
Added some more to justify why people believe in white holes in the first place. I think maintaining energy conservation for the whole universe (thought of as a closed system) is the main reason. The Big Bang theory essentially proposes that the universe was created from a white hole , but that doesn't mean that there must still exist other smaller white holes in our universe. Penrose (Emperor's New Mind) discusses the controversies of white holes in some depth. Might have to read that again ! Mpatel 08:30, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
I think this white hole page should mention GRB 060614, which has it's own wikipedia page and is believed to be a white hole. It's a gamma ray burst that happened on June 14(15?), 2006. 110.175.105.29 ( talk) 09:30, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
Full disclosure: I am not an expert on white holes or astronomy. However, I do study physics for a living and actively do research. I've heard of white holes, but never heard, for example, that they decrease entropy. There's no math or source provided to back up this claims and it sounds like a layman's speculation to me. Why would a white hole decrease entropy? If it's adding particles and energy to the universe, it's almost certainly increasing entropy. Why? ds = dq/dt. As it's pouring heat into a cold environment, the entropy is going up, as is the complexity of the system given the extra particles / energy.
Worst of all - this spurious claim is now being spouted by articles and websites across the web. I'll plan on editing and removing such claims unless someone can offer counter evidence - which I'd be more than happy to consider. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Artifexr ( talk • contribs) 21:31, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
Would a white hole violate thermodynamics any more than a black hole would? Who said anything would have to actually be falling out of it? - Leperous
If black holes converted matter et al to pure energy (very high temperatures), would a white hole work within the bounds of the 2nd law of thermodynamics if the energy was converted to space?
Could white holes, in creating space, account for the apparent, accelerating expanding universe?
I believe that the law of thermodynamics being broken is the second which is about entropy. Which to my knowledge means that things tend to become less ordered. Not more ordered. A black hole destroys ordered objects a white hole would order objects ... Think about a complex system ... maybe even one with life popping out of a white hole being made of nothing. Wow ... kind of godlike huh? Before reading your questions I posted below that could a system of decreasing entropy exist in the area that would correlate to the part beneath the event horizon of a black hole? This would certainly be an exotic. But it is my opinion that black holes / white holes are exotic in nature anyway. --
Tommac2 (
talk)
19:19, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
The Big Bang-Bit Bang/Supermassive White Hole along with black holes are singularities where the laws of physics breakdown. 73.85.207.82 ( talk) 18:37, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
I added... The Big Bang 13.8 billion years ago may be thought of as a supermassive white hole that was the result of a supermassive black hole at the heart of a galaxy in our parent universe. 2601:580:10C:ECC7:9CA0:DAA2:974B:E7BA ( talk) 22:15, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
I added this to the opening paragraph... Some have hypothesized that the two singularities of general relativity - the Big Bang and black holes - are connected through a supermassive white hole spawned by a supermassive black hole at the heart of a galaxy in our parent universe. 2601:580:10B:CE66:ACB2:A6BB:7C88:68EA ( talk) 15:18, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
In the "Overview" section, the first paragraph ends with this:
Imagine a gravitational field, without a surface. Acceleration due to gravity is the greatest on the surface of any body. But since black holes lack a surface, acceleration due to gravity increases exponentially, but never reaches a final value as there is no considered surface in a singularity.
Not only is it completely unrelated to everything around it, it seems to just want to say that the force of gravity (and therefore acceleration) will get stronger the closer you are to the center of mass. Here I am just going by classical mechanics, which is not what this article is about, but it seems this sentence might be. Why even invoke a "surface"? The whole thing seems strange to me.-- Ribidag ( talk) 12:40, 6 June 2022 (UTC)