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I would like to know more about the living conditions of the prisoners who built the canal. What werethe working conditions? How was their diet and how did they die? Where were they buried? Rgámez, San Jose, CA,USA
If you want to know everything about the living conditions (if it could be called "living") read The Gulag Archipelago by Alexandr Solzhenitsyn. It'll show you that there was NOTHING "glorious" about the USSR. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.209.105.33 ( talk) 20:43, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
The article is very sloppy. It takes a book or two that reinforces one slanted side and then speculates on the intentions or 'what they really thought' of those who were actually there. "Hey, let's throw 100k death toll, no evidence what so ever, but it makes Russia look evil."
-G — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.24.151.188 ( talk) 06:07, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Can anyone verify the death toll on the project? At the beginning of the article it states that 100,000 prisoners died during construction but later on it states the entire work force was 100,000 prisoners. These would imply a 100% mortality rate which seems a bit extreme. I haven't been able to verify the reference provided for the death toll as it points to an educational site in Britain that requires a fee to join. Tgpaul58 ( talk) 19:40, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
Later in the article it says there were 100,000 people working there over the 20 months and a death rate of 8.7%. This would mean 8,700 or if it was an annual rate about 13,000. At the very least the 100,000 so dubious it should not be allowed to stand alone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.18.22.227 ( talk) 15:09, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
They put more and more work slaves to the camp after the first ones died. The flow through was fast and large. About 270 000 died. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.78.161.177 ( talk) 08:47, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Regardless of his accounts of life in the gulag, I do not believe Solzhenitsyn is considered a credible source for estimates of numbers of prisoners and death toll. Zetaeta ( talk) 18:06, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
This article mentions two of the lakes on the canal's length, but not the biggest, Lake Ladoga. (It seems to be part of the canal, at least according to the map.) Maybe someone should add it to the relevant section. -- JamesHoadley 09:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
There is too much speculation about that team of Russian writers and artists and what they knew. Is that visit especially notable? -- Apoc2400 06:21, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
yes it is very important. gives a whole different perspective on the gulags —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.239.201.31 ( talk) 09:20, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Is canal really challenged by its depth ( citation? )? Being 4m deep, it conforms with depth of river waterways in Russia. Maybe it's locks' width that create some difficulties ( most popular cruise ships and volgo-don size freighters don't fit them). Linefeed 00:25, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
User:BigChillClassic put in some editorial comments and a list of people responsible for the deaths on the canal. This was reverted, I though unecessarily so, it should have just been edited. So I put in the following:
As it stands it uses "weasal words" so it would be much better to say who thinks they are responsible (beyond BigChill). Frenkel is obviously responsible, and Yagoda certainly is responsible for things just as bad, and probably this as well. The other names ring a bell from having read a couple of books on the topic, but that's really not good enough in the long term (I think gradualism can apply here, it is not a BLP issue).
Unfortuneately, in doing some basic internet checks, it seems that this list (usually in the same order) is posted all over the internet in anti- (Jewish,Semetic,Zionist take-your-pick) sites. There seems to be a common source, perhaps Gulag Archipeligo - but who knows. I do not want to associate myself or Wikipedia with those sites, but I do think that naming names is important here. For example, I can't imagine an article on Nazi concentration camps that doesn't name Hitler or Eichmann.
Any help, suggestions appreciated. Smallbones ( talk) 20:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
According to Yuri Slezkine, " all the top leadership positions were held by Jews" so it appears the information removed about Jewish involvement in building the canal was correct. Dmcw127 ( talk) 18:31, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure where in the article it'd go, but it seems this claim, from Marshall Berman (All That Is Solid Melts into Air, 1982, p. 76) is relevant:
-- Delirium ( talk) 13:18, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
The article says repeatedly that the canal is called the "White Sea – Baltic Sea Canal" and yet this article is titled "White Sea - Baltic Canal." Can someone change the title so it is correct? I don't see a way to do this myself. 69.125.134.86 ( talk) 22:06, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
" These teams were pitted to compete against each other in surpassing the norms, and promises were made of shortened sentences, food and cash bonuses for those who would—however, the norms were impossible to fulfill, let alone surpass. After the construction, 12,000 prisoners were freed as a reward for their efforts."
So here we are told they were promised they'd be rewarded for passing a set of goals, but those goals were impossible. We are also told 12,000 people passed those goals. How then, are they impossible, if 12,000 people achieve them? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.69.107.122 ( talk) 12:36, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
In the "Working conditions" sections there is a statement by Alexander Solzhenytsyn describing 250 000 deaths. Solzhenytsyn is not a historian and his claims are not supported by any evidence. The Gulag Archipelago is not a historical reasearch work, and cannot be taken as a source. I would like to remove this claim as counter-productive and unsourced. Thoughts? F.Alexsandr ( talk) 15:39, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
Also I would put very little stock in a Soviet estimate, they have every incentive to lie. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n! ⚓ 02:56, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
@ CaptainEek and F.Alexsandr: As per WP:RSCONTEXT as long as source is reliable for the statement it stands for (is attributed to) it may be used safely since NO policy stipulates which material is related or unrelated to the given Article except of common sense and general consensus. In this particulate case the WP:RSOPINION is clearly applicable. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 23:31, 2 July 2020 (UTC) |
This number in the opening paragraphs is clearly wrong, and presumably should be 600 tonnes. A boat with a capacity of 600 kg would be closer to the size of a large rowing boat or dinghy. A boat of 100 m length by 10 m beam by 3 m draft should comfortably fit down the canal and could have a displacement of approximately 3000 tonnes, about 5000 times greater than the quoted cargo capacity. 217.169.17.163 ( talk) 22:27, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
This
level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I would like to know more about the living conditions of the prisoners who built the canal. What werethe working conditions? How was their diet and how did they die? Where were they buried? Rgámez, San Jose, CA,USA
If you want to know everything about the living conditions (if it could be called "living") read The Gulag Archipelago by Alexandr Solzhenitsyn. It'll show you that there was NOTHING "glorious" about the USSR. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.209.105.33 ( talk) 20:43, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
The article is very sloppy. It takes a book or two that reinforces one slanted side and then speculates on the intentions or 'what they really thought' of those who were actually there. "Hey, let's throw 100k death toll, no evidence what so ever, but it makes Russia look evil."
-G — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.24.151.188 ( talk) 06:07, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Can anyone verify the death toll on the project? At the beginning of the article it states that 100,000 prisoners died during construction but later on it states the entire work force was 100,000 prisoners. These would imply a 100% mortality rate which seems a bit extreme. I haven't been able to verify the reference provided for the death toll as it points to an educational site in Britain that requires a fee to join. Tgpaul58 ( talk) 19:40, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
Later in the article it says there were 100,000 people working there over the 20 months and a death rate of 8.7%. This would mean 8,700 or if it was an annual rate about 13,000. At the very least the 100,000 so dubious it should not be allowed to stand alone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.18.22.227 ( talk) 15:09, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
They put more and more work slaves to the camp after the first ones died. The flow through was fast and large. About 270 000 died. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.78.161.177 ( talk) 08:47, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Regardless of his accounts of life in the gulag, I do not believe Solzhenitsyn is considered a credible source for estimates of numbers of prisoners and death toll. Zetaeta ( talk) 18:06, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
This article mentions two of the lakes on the canal's length, but not the biggest, Lake Ladoga. (It seems to be part of the canal, at least according to the map.) Maybe someone should add it to the relevant section. -- JamesHoadley 09:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
There is too much speculation about that team of Russian writers and artists and what they knew. Is that visit especially notable? -- Apoc2400 06:21, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
yes it is very important. gives a whole different perspective on the gulags —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.239.201.31 ( talk) 09:20, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Is canal really challenged by its depth ( citation? )? Being 4m deep, it conforms with depth of river waterways in Russia. Maybe it's locks' width that create some difficulties ( most popular cruise ships and volgo-don size freighters don't fit them). Linefeed 00:25, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
User:BigChillClassic put in some editorial comments and a list of people responsible for the deaths on the canal. This was reverted, I though unecessarily so, it should have just been edited. So I put in the following:
As it stands it uses "weasal words" so it would be much better to say who thinks they are responsible (beyond BigChill). Frenkel is obviously responsible, and Yagoda certainly is responsible for things just as bad, and probably this as well. The other names ring a bell from having read a couple of books on the topic, but that's really not good enough in the long term (I think gradualism can apply here, it is not a BLP issue).
Unfortuneately, in doing some basic internet checks, it seems that this list (usually in the same order) is posted all over the internet in anti- (Jewish,Semetic,Zionist take-your-pick) sites. There seems to be a common source, perhaps Gulag Archipeligo - but who knows. I do not want to associate myself or Wikipedia with those sites, but I do think that naming names is important here. For example, I can't imagine an article on Nazi concentration camps that doesn't name Hitler or Eichmann.
Any help, suggestions appreciated. Smallbones ( talk) 20:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
According to Yuri Slezkine, " all the top leadership positions were held by Jews" so it appears the information removed about Jewish involvement in building the canal was correct. Dmcw127 ( talk) 18:31, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure where in the article it'd go, but it seems this claim, from Marshall Berman (All That Is Solid Melts into Air, 1982, p. 76) is relevant:
-- Delirium ( talk) 13:18, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
The article says repeatedly that the canal is called the "White Sea – Baltic Sea Canal" and yet this article is titled "White Sea - Baltic Canal." Can someone change the title so it is correct? I don't see a way to do this myself. 69.125.134.86 ( talk) 22:06, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
" These teams were pitted to compete against each other in surpassing the norms, and promises were made of shortened sentences, food and cash bonuses for those who would—however, the norms were impossible to fulfill, let alone surpass. After the construction, 12,000 prisoners were freed as a reward for their efforts."
So here we are told they were promised they'd be rewarded for passing a set of goals, but those goals were impossible. We are also told 12,000 people passed those goals. How then, are they impossible, if 12,000 people achieve them? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.69.107.122 ( talk) 12:36, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
In the "Working conditions" sections there is a statement by Alexander Solzhenytsyn describing 250 000 deaths. Solzhenytsyn is not a historian and his claims are not supported by any evidence. The Gulag Archipelago is not a historical reasearch work, and cannot be taken as a source. I would like to remove this claim as counter-productive and unsourced. Thoughts? F.Alexsandr ( talk) 15:39, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
Also I would put very little stock in a Soviet estimate, they have every incentive to lie. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n! ⚓ 02:56, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
@ CaptainEek and F.Alexsandr: As per WP:RSCONTEXT as long as source is reliable for the statement it stands for (is attributed to) it may be used safely since NO policy stipulates which material is related or unrelated to the given Article except of common sense and general consensus. In this particulate case the WP:RSOPINION is clearly applicable. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 23:31, 2 July 2020 (UTC) |
This number in the opening paragraphs is clearly wrong, and presumably should be 600 tonnes. A boat with a capacity of 600 kg would be closer to the size of a large rowing boat or dinghy. A boat of 100 m length by 10 m beam by 3 m draft should comfortably fit down the canal and could have a displacement of approximately 3000 tonnes, about 5000 times greater than the quoted cargo capacity. 217.169.17.163 ( talk) 22:27, 30 September 2022 (UTC)