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However, intermixing is not exclusive to the region, of course, and the white race is nowhere a "pure race": pure races do not exist, and evidently never have. The reason that I previously removed this sentence is that is seems to have been just thrown in as a poorly written, random thought about the white race. The entire paragraph already addresses the topic of Latin Americans "intermixing" and that many of them have Amerindian ancestry. It also does a good job explaining the caste system. That sentence just seems very anecdotal and unencylopedic. I don't think it adds anything, but at the very least it should be rewritten. The source does not state it this way. Kman543210 ( talk) 23:56, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm new to this article, but I have to agree with Kman543210 that even though it may be true, it doesn't sound very professional (just the sentence that he mentioned). The rest of it seems fine. The burden will be on him to rewrite it 'cause I'm not sure how it would go. And by the way, I know what he meant by using the word "anecdotal" in that sense, so it wasn't necessary to post a link to the definition for him, just seems pedantic and snide to do so. Jabez2000 ( talk) 03:51, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
It has come to my attention that the photo of "White" Argentines includes an immigrant of Asian descent. While it cannot be so well seen from afar, an up close look at the photo will reveal what many thought was a white latin american to be an immigrant of Asian descent. There is no problem with the photo for immigration purposes or even for Argentine population photos... but for a White Latin American article it is a little odd to have such a photo. There is a photo added of White Mexican girls who are obviously white and cannot be debated (Of course some will try). I think this photo alone will suffice. What say you? Cali567 ( talk) 19:54, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
the two end ones are white no doubt they look either european or west asian decent but there could be an arguement about the middle one looking mestizo-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 14:17, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
kman i would disagree with you very much on the one on the left being possible mestizo she does not have any negro or native american features only maybe the middle one -- Wikiscribe ( talk) 14:22, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
What is this unknown president doing there among Gisele Bundchen or Shakira? lol. Opinoso ( talk) 03:16, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Taken from the article: "However, intermixing is not exclusive to the region, of course, and the white race is nowhere a "pure race": pure races do not exist, and evidently never have.[12] This is backed up by a 2004 study of White Americans, which showed that up to 30% of them have between 2% and 20% Sub Saharan African and or Native American admixture similar to the ratio of white Latin Americans.[13]"
How is any of this relevant? First off, I think its pretty obvious that racial intermixing does not occur exclusively in Latin America. Does an article about Antarctica require a passage explaining that naturally occuring ice is found elsewhere on the globe?
Similarly, the whole point of the passage doesn't seem to be directed at contributing any useful content to the article's subject, but rather is intended towards disparaging the idea of a "pure race," albeit without providing a viable definition of the terms "pure," "race," or "pure race." I suppose The Flapdoodle McGillicudy Dimension doesn't exist either, but maybe it does? Who can say, without a definition of the term? And obviously, this article is not the place to define the term "pure race," hence any discussion about whether such a thing exists or not, is not germane to the topic at hand. It is, as I said, irrelevant editorializing. Most of us are already aware of what Criticial Theorists think on the subject of race; we don't need to be instructed on one particular school of thought's perspective on the question of race in general, in an article about "White Latin America." There are plenty of articles where such opinions/theories on the question of human biodiversity are relevant to the topic at hand; this article is, rather obviously, not one of them.
I deleted this bit of off-topic, socio-political editorializing, presented as relevant and objective fact, but my deletion was reverted. Even if one agrees with the content of the passage, and probably most people do, it simply isn't part of the scope of the article. Nor is it objectively factual, but rather an example of one particular side in a debate using Wikipedia in order to confer authority status upon their favored viewpoint. Its not much different than if someone had inserted racialist commentary (which apparently was, in fact, done; see below) about the supposed deficiencies of mixed-race people into the article. This article is not a place to hash out differences of opinion, especially about an undefined term, "pure race," that no intelligent person uses anymore anyway (hence the passage is little more than the knocking down of an imaginary strawman; I don't even think David Duke believes in the concept of a totally "pure (White) race," although again, its difficult to say for certain, since we really have no idea what that term is intended to precisely mean).
As an aside, I see now that apparently, the purpose of this passage was to combat a tendency among certain elements who were involved in a concerted effort to disparage the notion of a White Latin American population, presumably as part of their own pet, ideological project. The problem there is that racialist propaganda should not be replaced by anti-racialist propaganda. I think we're all in agreement on that score, even the guy who wrote the passage in question (and I hope he doesn't feel overly disparaged by my characteristically polemic style in addressing this topic).
Anyhoo, I'll probably just let this percolate for a couple of days, and see if I get any feedback, and then perhaps attempt to modify the passage in question, in an effort to reduce its editorial character. KevinOKeeffe ( talk) 16:45, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
What are the sources for the some of the notable white l. americans? not all of them have sources. phenelogy could be deceptive. Lihaas ( talk) 19:09, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
The sources that they use, by their own admission, are the skin colors of those individuals. *eyeroll* 74.69.64.52 ( talk) 03:15, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
An IP editor removed the picture of Shakira stating that she isn't white. From what I know, her mother is a Columbian of Spanish descent (and possibly Italian) and father is Lebanese. Spaniards are white, and according to many definitions, so are Lebanese since they're from the Middle East. I've restored the picture. Kman543210 ( talk) 23:32, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
she is of catalan and lebanese descent = white latin american ,there are always going to be somebody to say she's not white i think this has been discused before so lets not bring the trolls out by starting more threads like this some people just cant stand the fact she is white thats all and britney spears is not white either see how easy that was to say does not mean its true-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 01:58, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
probaly right lehoiberri one ip made that statement the others gave the old classic reason why she is not white she is colombian so there for she could not be white LOL but check the history of this article there was just a horde of ip's that kept removing her picture see i was right this thread brought the trolls out lol finaly an admin had to add a semi protect-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 18:42, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Is she White? —Preceding unsigned comment added by InuYoshi ( talk • contribs) 23:34, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
The Lebanese are a Semitic people. The few remaining 'Whites' are likely to be a mixture of Aryan and Semite. Colombia does not appear to have a large White population, so neither of her parents are likely to be White, so unless you classify anyone who doesn't look black or Asian as 'White', she is not White. 201.27.171.210 ( talk) 15:04, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
your racial theories dont work here please cease with your racial propaganda-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 16:04, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree, I think Shakira is multiracial, take a look at her early pictures, here in Brazil she is considered "Morena (Latina)" too due to her fairly tanned skin. She is mixed races, not white. InuYoshi ( talk) 00:25, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Shakira doesn't look White. 201.95.49.206 ( talk) 15:46, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
It should be noted that Americans in the USA are very strange when it comes to defining white. Some of them can get really racist without realizing it. They think that if anyone has the least bit exotic feature or olive skin that somehow they cannot be white. Which is strange considering a lot of them claim to have Native American ancestry or African slave ancestry. They also believe Italians to be white but deny Argentinans the same claim, even if most of them are of Italian decent. The claim of being white is very deranged in the USA. We should make a note of this in the article and we shouldn't give in to their strange notions of race.
I have also noticed that this type of thinking is also appearing around the world as even Hispanics in Latin America are starting to think of themselves as "racially" Hispanic/Latino. People are starting to adapt to the Anglo-American type of thinking. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.91.177.70 ( talk) 07:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC).
The proof she is not white is here. http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php/shakira-white-83052p5.html and here. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Ak2zQi6cBe2r1cVMCgf_v.4jzKIX;_ylv=3?qid=20061006130035AA82z2S .
Even latinos don't consider her white. http://mx.answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AmRqfrD9vOgAOZA5U1WsrbrB8gt.;_ylv=3?qid=20070917044334AAsGVvr —Preceding unsigned comment added by InuYoshi ( talk • contribs) 23:01, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
as i said on your page stormfront is a racist site(though ethnocentrics like to use white racist nordicist to claim people when it suits them) and opinions from a yahoo question and anserw session are not reliable sources but there are sources that cite her ancestry as catalan ,italian and lebanese do you have any sources that she is mestizo-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 23:07, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.nndb.com/people/485/000023416/ Ask an average American if he/she thinks Shakira is white, he/she'll say no, Shakira will never be considered white in western society. Here in Brazil or Colombia she is considered morena/ or mixed races. It's not that I hate Shakira, it's just that she is not White. Besides wikipedia, nobody considers Shakira white. InuYoshi ( talk) 23:17, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
what makes her mixed race is the question? people consider Shannon Elizabeth white and she even has native american ancestry check her family tree out, which shakira has none of, first off you ask the average american and they think hispanic or latino is race LOL... there is a difference between reality and ignorance-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 23:24, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The vast majority of Americans do not consider her white, a friend of mine said "WHOA" when he saw Shakira being considered White in an American website like Wikipedia. Hispanic is an ethnicity, not a race, she is of Hispanic ethnicity InuYoshi ( talk) 23:33, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
i know what hispanic is but many americans are ignorant to this and think she is not white because she is colombian but americans with native american ancestry are still considered white such as shannon elizabeth, Heather Locklear, Johnny Depp Val Kilmer etc etc etc and with all this said shakira has no non caucasian ancestry all sources say she is italian catalan and lebanese and she is pale like a ghost but she has exotic features no different than Catherine Zeta Jones who is Welsh and Irish but she is still a white caucasian-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 23:47, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Shakira's natural skin color is very tan, she pretended to be white when she entered american marketing, but she is far from being white, her race is arabm and ethnicity is hispanic. Tom Lennox ( talk) 00:45, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Why not replace the picture of Shakira for the picture of Xuxa, since Xuxa is more white than Shakira. InuYoshi ( talk) 13:24, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Dude, I love Shakira, and I think she is one of the best musicians, I love her earlier songs, and she is definitely one of the most beautiful women on this planet. However I do not see her as a white womAn, and she is not. Just because she is not white does not make her any less cool or beautiful, it's just that she is not white. Halle Berry and Beyoncé are black, not white, that doesn't make theY any less beautiful, they are also two of the most beautiful women on the planet. There's nothing wrong with her not being white, it's just that she is not White.. And I don't hate arab people or people with arab descent. I love arabic music and I find arabs beautifully exotic. InuYoshi ( talk) 19:08, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Just because she is white does not mean she has to mean anything less to you,i mean you still have not come up with a reliable sources ,also arab is not a race though you do talk in terms like it is please stop being ethnocentric or whatever beyonce has nothing to do with this though she has white ancestry and halle berry is half white and yes they are beautiful,like i said earlier exoctic looks are also apart of the white phenotype now please sources are stop wasteing time and this issue has been raised before and settled in the same fashion this is not your personal oipnion in my personal opinion mariah carey is not black but i am not trying to pov her into being white on someother article-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 19:31, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
trolling comments by user inu yoshi deleted-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 20:48, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
What did I do wrong? I was just kidding when I said she was not white. Actually I am one of those who fight to prove that Shakira is white for those prejudiced Americans. InuYoshi ( talk) 20:55, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Is there a difference between white and caucasian? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.43.150.157 ( talk) 01:38, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Caucasians are people from the Caucasus, like Armenian, Gergians, Ossetian, Abkhazian, Chechnian,...
Whites are people with very light colored skin, but not albino —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
84.164.218.90 (
talk)
10:35, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
What about Thalia? Is She White? 201.68.139.157 ( talk) 18:23, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck its usualy is a duck ,can i ask you a question is kelly clarkson white?-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 18:51, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
No, Technically Kelly Clarkson is 100% pure grade "A" American. lol InuYoshi ( talk) 19:23, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Let's stop debating who is white who is not. For the matter, Thalia is White. InuYoshi ( talk) 21:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Well, in the White Mexican article Thalia is listed there, so I think she is white. InuYoshi ( talk) 22:50, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Why can't this "Who's White and Who's Non-White" BS end!!! Ignorant people out there in Wikipedia, THERE ARE WHITE PEOPLE IN LATIN AMERICA, AND IT IS A FACT! IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE FACTS, THEN THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM! STOP SPAMMING TALK PAGES BY SAYING "THIS PERSON IS NOT WHITE"! GROW UP, PEOPLE!!! Lehoiberri ( talk) 23:59, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Since there ar articles for white brazilian, argentine, cuban, mexican we could have one for White Colombians, in the infobox we can put Shakira and Gabriel Garcia Marquez. InuYoshi ( talk) 22:44, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Isn't Shakira Brunette? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.43.34.156 ( talk) 14:22, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes. Joker Begins ( talk) 17:26, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
oh brunette is a race now-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 14:58, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
He meant Morena, Shakira is morena, not white. 201.68.138.71 ( talk) 15:34, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Shakira is more asian than white 200.161.62.242 ( talk) 22:44, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Shakira is not white and Kman, Leihobem, wikiscribe and sandahl are the same person. Pé de Chinelo ( talk) 14:44, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Phoenicians also settled some parts of Europe, including Southern Spain, Italy, France and Greece. If Lebanese are not white, so many people in Europe are not. Opinoso ( talk) 01:20, 12 October 2008 (UTC).
There's a chance that Shakira may not be white, that's because some lebanese are white, not all. We have to consider if her father is a white colombian, I don't think so. So if her father is not white and her mom is, Shakira is only 50% white. 50% is not 100%, so a movie cut in two is not a movie at all, so Shakira may not be White at all. Pé de Chinelo ( talk) 23:19, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
SOME LEBANESE ARE WHITE, SOME ARE NOT, THERE ARE CHANCES THAT HER LEBANESE FATHER IS NOT WHITE Pé de Chinelo ( talk) 23:56, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
in this page, change her ethnicity to white if she is white and then I'll agree she is white, the site is here http://www.nndb.com/people/485/000023416/ ps: the lebanese are middle-eastern, not white. Pé de Chinelo ( talk) 00:12, 14 October 2008 (UTC).
Ok then. Pé de Chinelo ( talk) 00:28, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I called for this topic to be delete before it was trolled back again. Hopefully some one deletes it, or archive it, or do something that will stop the spammy trolls. Lehoiberri ( talk) 00:31, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
OK I'll give you that, Shakira is White. but don't delete this thread, we can use this as proof for other things. Pé de Chinelo ( talk) 14:41, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
I found a picture of Shakira with her parents. Her Lebanese father looks "whiter" than her Colombian Italian/Spanish mother:
http://www.myshakira.org/images/shakira_parents.jpg
So, Pé de Chinelo, how do you explain Shakira's Middle-Eastern father looks whiter than her "European"-descend mother?
Those trolls claim someone is not white basing in the country they were born or their surname. As the troll who months ago was claiming Nelly Furtado is not white, claiming she is "Hispanic", because she eventually sings in Spanish language, even though her parents are from Portugal and she has nothing to do with the "Hispanic World".
Why people do not claim Victoria Beckham is not white? Because she is British. If she were from Mexico or Guatemala, many trolls would call her "mestizo" or something similar. Opinoso ( talk) 18:06, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Her lebanese father has european ancestry. Pé de Chinelo ( talk) 18:50, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Lebanese are primary descendants of Phoenician settlers. The Arab colonists left their language, culture and traditions, but the local population remained with their Phoenician ancestry. Being an "Arab" does not mean you have to trace your ancestry to the Arabian Peninsula. Arab is a cultural aspect, not a race. The same applies to Hispanic, which is a cultural aspect. Hispanics can be of any race, the same goes to Arabs. Read the article Arab.
Not only Europeans can look "white". Maybe you should study History more and learn that all humans came from Africa, and all humans were of black skin 100,000 years ago. Those who left Africa and went to Europe, due to natural selection and genetic mutations, only the lighter skinned people survived in Europe, because of its cold weather (light skin absorbes more sun light), while those of dark skin tended to dissaper over the millennia. This phenomenon was not exclusive to Europe, it also happened in other parts of the world. White human skin is a recent phenomenon. Human species exists for only 130,000 to 200,000 years, and humans first arrived in Europe 40,000 years ago. The first people with blond hair only appeared 11,000 years ago (see article blond).
All Humans are descendants of a small group of humans who came from Africa. From China to Sweden, we all share the same ancestry and genetic structure. The genetic differences between a "white" and a "black" are so minimal and pathetic.
Races and ethnicities are created by people's mind. This stuff does not exist. If we go generations ago, we were all black people living in the middle of a jungle in Africa.
All I wrote is to say: not only humans in Europe can have look white. And all this "race" stuff is not serious, because everybody came from the same place. Everybody have black ancestors from Africa, including Shakira, her Lebanese father and, of course, you Pé de Chinelo. If you are a human being, of course.
MANY of the ancient "European" peoples first settled in the Middle-East and then re-immigrated to Europe.
So stop with this "she can't be white because her father is from Lebanon" or "her father looks white, so he has European ancestry". GO to school study biology or take a trip to Lebanon and stop trolling. Opinoso ( talk) 22:19, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Shakira doesn't belong to the white race. Tom Lennox ( talk) 18:48, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
In the section on Peru it lists alternative sources for the European ancestry and says "French (mainly Basques)"... What's the Freakazoid is that??????!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Basques would be Spaniards... Not French!!!! Or is there any justification? I'm not correcting it myself out of cautiousness... But really... That's really messed up!!!!! Undead Herle King ( talk) 05:07, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
What RBD members are white? RBD is a mexican pop group. Joker Begins ( talk) 13:08, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
All of them except Dulce Maria and Christian Chavez who look mestizo. Pé de Chinelo ( talk) 22:22, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Joker Begins ( talk) 11:51, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
there are small amount of mestizo cubans, also lets not confuse being mixed race(mestizo) with maybe having nominal native admixture,you stand corrected opinoso --
Wikiscribe (
talk)
03:18, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
You said: "there is no doubt that eva mendez is white the facts are there are little to none mestizo population in cuba most natives were killed off".
Nobody needs to have Amerindian ancestry to look like her. It can be the African blood as well. A person with 1/4 black ancestry can look exactly like Eva Mendes (I'm from Brazil and I know what I'm talking about).
It can be even Chinese (yes, a significant number of Chinese emigrated to Cuba) or something else.
Racial admixture is very intensive in Latin America, and a brother can look completly "white" and the other brother completly "non-white". Nobody can use only "physical apparence" in Latin America to say if a person is white or not. Only the person can say so.
By physical apparence, in my opinion, she does not look her ancestors came straight from Spain. Opinoso ( talk) 16:34, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
I have noticed some editors put Barbados, Bermuda, Haiti, Martinique, French Guiana, Guyana, and Trinidad and Tobago in this article, and these editors view these countries as part of Latin America. Are these countries part of Latin America? Many view the Spanish and Portuguese speaking areas as only Latin America. What do you all think? Lehoiberri ( talk) 18:20, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
SamEV is correct that Belize is one of those borderline instances where some people include it and some do not due to a lot migration from other Latin American countries, but it is definitely not a traditional Latin American country. According to the 2000 Belize census [3], the current language users (language they use at home) are as follows: Spanish 43%, Kriol 37%, English 5.6%, etc. In terms of language proficiency, 80% of Belizeans speak English either well or some, and 63% speak Spanish either well or some. That being said, since this article deals with White Latin Americans, I would not include Belize because the white population in Belize is only 4.3%, and of that 3.6% are Mennonites (mostly German speaking). So that leaves 0.8% of the country that is non-Mennonite white, and of that 0.8%, only a total of 49 people in 2000 Belize Census indicated that Spanish was their mother tongue. Unless we're going to put in the section that there are 49 white Latin Americans in Belize, I think it should be left out. Kman543210 ( talk) 03:49, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
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Why so many pictures of unknown models, such as Taliana Vargas or Valeska Saab?? (who are they??). It would be better to post pictures of more known people, or historic pictures of European immigrants in different countries of Latin America. Opinoso ( talk) 15:17, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. Too often these turn into "who's your favorite celebrity" galleries or lists. They don't all need to be currently famous, just notable in some way (of course that's subjective too). Kman543210 ( talk) 23:59, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Now this is getting ridiculous! Why is the Falkland Islands listed here, it is a FULLY RECOGNIZED British Territory. Only Argentina doesn't recognize it as British. The Falkland Island is NOT part of Latin America, and I bet you all that Falklander would find it offensive to be referred as Latinos/Hispanics since it would make the Falklands as an Argentinian territory. The Falkland Island is made up of primary people of British descent, and the offical language is English, not Spanish or Portuguese. Maybe I am the only Argentine with common sense, but serious remove the Falkland Islands! Lehoiberri ( talk) 03:13, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Can this be used as a reliable source... it seems to be very informative.
http://www.worldstatesmen.org/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jesusmariajalisco ( talk • contribs) 20:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
It seems that I am not the only one who thinks that this source is not very reliable.. Besise it contradicts with other sources. -- Fercho85 ( talk) 23:36, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
The list of white Latin Americans is unsourced. I think that if references cannot be found to show that a particular person identifies as a white Latin American, or in some way demonstrating that the person can be considered a white Latin American, then the person should be left off the list.
Ordinary Person ( talk) 05:17, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
there is a source for Shakira as well samev you know as well i as i do that she has been disscused to the point of nauseum on this very talk page-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 21:28, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
try clicking the link shakira is lebanese, catalonian and italian origin its right on her main article also samev if you wish to make an issue out of something deal with it maybe not everybody got time right now to scan the internet looking for everybody's ancestry but as i said a few have sources right on there main article if you remove shakira i will just re add her-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 21:43, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
here you go now any questions [4]-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 22:59, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
(SamEV here) Well, the deed is done, and here goes the list.
Authors
Entertainers Actors/Actresses
Musicians
Journalists
Models, beauty queens
Presidents and Political figures
Religious figures
Sports
And the people who were pictured alongside the list:
And other individuals whose images were scattered throughout the article:
Now in regards to the new-look infobox, I'll try to make refinements, probably change some pictures, as time goes by. Meantime, here's an issue we must resolve:
so basicaly find sources for the ancestry of these people and as we do they will get added back to the article-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 02:43, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
samev nobody had asked you to look for sources but anybody can whether its me or any other editor who comes along who wishes to do so can do so from time to time this is not a job where people are paid by the hour to perform tasks and there is no time limit-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 18:25, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
fantastic that you sourced 5 of them it was your choice just like it was my choice to find the one for shakira that you supposely could not find i did not look for an award so why should you-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 21:22, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Ordinary Person ( talk) 03:50, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
Well, that's my two cents. Ordinary Person ( talk) 04:30, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
I am not 100% sure about this one, but it is believed by some that Fidel Castro has some African ancestry from his mother's side. I am aware that his father was from Galicia, Spain, and his mother may have had Galician ancestry as well; however, this does not eliminate the possibility of her being of mixed ancestry. Here is a website that makes note of this possibility:
http://www.afrocubaweb.com/aboutacw.htm
Hopefully this will be taken under consideration. 69.235.143.22 ( talk) 20:48, 25 November 2008 (UTC) James Lopez
maybe i put out the wrong vibe, i am not trying to impose some sort of one drop rule, i just said what the ip suggested we can say about abraham lincoln there is a possibilty he might have some non white ancestry and what he is suggesting is that we remove fidel because there is a chance he might have some non white ancestry but under that arguement we can also remove abraham kincoln from the white american article in others words the ip's arguement is fallacious one and is hinting at a one drop rule-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 00:05, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
wait, im bad with this numbers, so somebody like fox is only 1/16 native american?-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 00:40, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
i would say, something around that would be be a good cut off that would be more like admixture one "great" grandparent was native american-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 01:06, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Hello. I am the original poster on this particular discussion area, and I must say that I apologize for initiating so much negativity and controversy here-- I assure everyone that it was unintentional. And no, I was not necessarily suggesting removing Fidel Castro from the list, nor do I subscribe to the one-drop theory. I am merely critical of the idea that Fidel Castro is always presumed to be white, and the question is: how do we know? Does he consider himself white? Do we really know his ancestry? It seems that he is always presumed to be white without any real evidence presented. No, I am not necessarily proposing a removal, nor do I think "purity" is a true factor in "whiteness" (or however sort of color one identifies with). Take are. 155.135.55.230 ( talk) 02:38, 26 November 2008 (UTC) James Lopez
Actually, Castro's mother was not from a priveleged background; she was a maid, which is fairly well-known. Fidel was born "illegitimately," and some sources say that his father did not acknowledge him immediately. Here is a source, in Spanish, that says that he was born poor but raised rich; not only that, but this source, among many others in Spanish, states that his mother, Lina Ruz, was mulata, hence acknowledging African ancestry (and probably not distant) for Fidel:
http://www.elgrancapitan.org/foro/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=9731
As far as I am concerned, he is white Latin American and should be included here; however, his possible non-white heritage may be more recent (and more important) than originally thought. Take care, all. 69.235.143.22 ( talk) 15:06, 26 November 2008 (UTC) James Lopez
i agree with samev proposals except for the matter about adding a footnote about individuals possible non white ancestry because there is already a statement to that fact about latin americans as a whole of having possible admixture, just like there is a similar statement about admixture on the White Americans article, also your two sources are weak one being a web forum and one being a special intrest web page that from what i can see only mentions about 70% of cubans as a whole as having possible black african ancestry.Plus this is the first time i ever heard of fidel castro having any possible black ancestors, if you want to try and add it to his main article by all means try it, there is a simlar more well known rumor about Warren G Harding the 29th president of the united states of having an african american grandparent but the source there is the new york times so its more plausable-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 22:24, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Let me say that I don't think that 7/8 should be the minimum. But I wanted us to establish the idea that some mixture was acceptable in order to establish that we would not be going the one drop rule route. 7/8 was a no-brainer.
In general, I propose that we include:
Notice that in all cases, reliable sources are required. There is no room for original research.
Your thoughts, everybody? SamEV ( talk) 22:47, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
okay but as you said people should assume 100% white ancestry though as you know when it comes to latin americans it's usually the opposite people incorrectly assume mixture ,but i don't want to get into a whole big deal about this ,if there will be footnotes so be it, but being we are talking people's ancestry the sources should be good reliable ones because some sources can be dubious or fringe ones-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 18:21, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
I do agree with the other person above that just because the person comes from Latin america you have to asume they are not white...if some of these exact people that we are not sure of where born in the US or Canada we wouldnt be as choosy as we are being on here..but ofcourse i thin its best to have references too..but since we are tring to make people aware of white people in Latin america , now we are being the picky ones, within reason. on a program in the uk they too english peoples dna thiking they had full english dna for generations and found one or two that has less than 10% sub-suharan dna..but were fully english..maybe thats the average dna..would like to know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.158.25.11 ( talk) 16:55, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Are people from India considered White? Pé de Chinelo ( talk) 14:17, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
However, intermixing is not exclusive to the region, of course, and the white race is nowhere a "pure race": pure races do not exist, and evidently never have. The reason that I previously removed this sentence is that is seems to have been just thrown in as a poorly written, random thought about the white race. The entire paragraph already addresses the topic of Latin Americans "intermixing" and that many of them have Amerindian ancestry. It also does a good job explaining the caste system. That sentence just seems very anecdotal and unencylopedic. I don't think it adds anything, but at the very least it should be rewritten. The source does not state it this way. Kman543210 ( talk) 23:56, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm new to this article, but I have to agree with Kman543210 that even though it may be true, it doesn't sound very professional (just the sentence that he mentioned). The rest of it seems fine. The burden will be on him to rewrite it 'cause I'm not sure how it would go. And by the way, I know what he meant by using the word "anecdotal" in that sense, so it wasn't necessary to post a link to the definition for him, just seems pedantic and snide to do so. Jabez2000 ( talk) 03:51, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
It has come to my attention that the photo of "White" Argentines includes an immigrant of Asian descent. While it cannot be so well seen from afar, an up close look at the photo will reveal what many thought was a white latin american to be an immigrant of Asian descent. There is no problem with the photo for immigration purposes or even for Argentine population photos... but for a White Latin American article it is a little odd to have such a photo. There is a photo added of White Mexican girls who are obviously white and cannot be debated (Of course some will try). I think this photo alone will suffice. What say you? Cali567 ( talk) 19:54, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
the two end ones are white no doubt they look either european or west asian decent but there could be an arguement about the middle one looking mestizo-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 14:17, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
kman i would disagree with you very much on the one on the left being possible mestizo she does not have any negro or native american features only maybe the middle one -- Wikiscribe ( talk) 14:22, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
What is this unknown president doing there among Gisele Bundchen or Shakira? lol. Opinoso ( talk) 03:16, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Taken from the article: "However, intermixing is not exclusive to the region, of course, and the white race is nowhere a "pure race": pure races do not exist, and evidently never have.[12] This is backed up by a 2004 study of White Americans, which showed that up to 30% of them have between 2% and 20% Sub Saharan African and or Native American admixture similar to the ratio of white Latin Americans.[13]"
How is any of this relevant? First off, I think its pretty obvious that racial intermixing does not occur exclusively in Latin America. Does an article about Antarctica require a passage explaining that naturally occuring ice is found elsewhere on the globe?
Similarly, the whole point of the passage doesn't seem to be directed at contributing any useful content to the article's subject, but rather is intended towards disparaging the idea of a "pure race," albeit without providing a viable definition of the terms "pure," "race," or "pure race." I suppose The Flapdoodle McGillicudy Dimension doesn't exist either, but maybe it does? Who can say, without a definition of the term? And obviously, this article is not the place to define the term "pure race," hence any discussion about whether such a thing exists or not, is not germane to the topic at hand. It is, as I said, irrelevant editorializing. Most of us are already aware of what Criticial Theorists think on the subject of race; we don't need to be instructed on one particular school of thought's perspective on the question of race in general, in an article about "White Latin America." There are plenty of articles where such opinions/theories on the question of human biodiversity are relevant to the topic at hand; this article is, rather obviously, not one of them.
I deleted this bit of off-topic, socio-political editorializing, presented as relevant and objective fact, but my deletion was reverted. Even if one agrees with the content of the passage, and probably most people do, it simply isn't part of the scope of the article. Nor is it objectively factual, but rather an example of one particular side in a debate using Wikipedia in order to confer authority status upon their favored viewpoint. Its not much different than if someone had inserted racialist commentary (which apparently was, in fact, done; see below) about the supposed deficiencies of mixed-race people into the article. This article is not a place to hash out differences of opinion, especially about an undefined term, "pure race," that no intelligent person uses anymore anyway (hence the passage is little more than the knocking down of an imaginary strawman; I don't even think David Duke believes in the concept of a totally "pure (White) race," although again, its difficult to say for certain, since we really have no idea what that term is intended to precisely mean).
As an aside, I see now that apparently, the purpose of this passage was to combat a tendency among certain elements who were involved in a concerted effort to disparage the notion of a White Latin American population, presumably as part of their own pet, ideological project. The problem there is that racialist propaganda should not be replaced by anti-racialist propaganda. I think we're all in agreement on that score, even the guy who wrote the passage in question (and I hope he doesn't feel overly disparaged by my characteristically polemic style in addressing this topic).
Anyhoo, I'll probably just let this percolate for a couple of days, and see if I get any feedback, and then perhaps attempt to modify the passage in question, in an effort to reduce its editorial character. KevinOKeeffe ( talk) 16:45, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
What are the sources for the some of the notable white l. americans? not all of them have sources. phenelogy could be deceptive. Lihaas ( talk) 19:09, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
The sources that they use, by their own admission, are the skin colors of those individuals. *eyeroll* 74.69.64.52 ( talk) 03:15, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
An IP editor removed the picture of Shakira stating that she isn't white. From what I know, her mother is a Columbian of Spanish descent (and possibly Italian) and father is Lebanese. Spaniards are white, and according to many definitions, so are Lebanese since they're from the Middle East. I've restored the picture. Kman543210 ( talk) 23:32, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
she is of catalan and lebanese descent = white latin american ,there are always going to be somebody to say she's not white i think this has been discused before so lets not bring the trolls out by starting more threads like this some people just cant stand the fact she is white thats all and britney spears is not white either see how easy that was to say does not mean its true-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 01:58, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
probaly right lehoiberri one ip made that statement the others gave the old classic reason why she is not white she is colombian so there for she could not be white LOL but check the history of this article there was just a horde of ip's that kept removing her picture see i was right this thread brought the trolls out lol finaly an admin had to add a semi protect-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 18:42, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Is she White? —Preceding unsigned comment added by InuYoshi ( talk • contribs) 23:34, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
The Lebanese are a Semitic people. The few remaining 'Whites' are likely to be a mixture of Aryan and Semite. Colombia does not appear to have a large White population, so neither of her parents are likely to be White, so unless you classify anyone who doesn't look black or Asian as 'White', she is not White. 201.27.171.210 ( talk) 15:04, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
your racial theories dont work here please cease with your racial propaganda-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 16:04, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree, I think Shakira is multiracial, take a look at her early pictures, here in Brazil she is considered "Morena (Latina)" too due to her fairly tanned skin. She is mixed races, not white. InuYoshi ( talk) 00:25, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Shakira doesn't look White. 201.95.49.206 ( talk) 15:46, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
It should be noted that Americans in the USA are very strange when it comes to defining white. Some of them can get really racist without realizing it. They think that if anyone has the least bit exotic feature or olive skin that somehow they cannot be white. Which is strange considering a lot of them claim to have Native American ancestry or African slave ancestry. They also believe Italians to be white but deny Argentinans the same claim, even if most of them are of Italian decent. The claim of being white is very deranged in the USA. We should make a note of this in the article and we shouldn't give in to their strange notions of race.
I have also noticed that this type of thinking is also appearing around the world as even Hispanics in Latin America are starting to think of themselves as "racially" Hispanic/Latino. People are starting to adapt to the Anglo-American type of thinking. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.91.177.70 ( talk) 07:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC).
The proof she is not white is here. http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php/shakira-white-83052p5.html and here. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Ak2zQi6cBe2r1cVMCgf_v.4jzKIX;_ylv=3?qid=20061006130035AA82z2S .
Even latinos don't consider her white. http://mx.answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AmRqfrD9vOgAOZA5U1WsrbrB8gt.;_ylv=3?qid=20070917044334AAsGVvr —Preceding unsigned comment added by InuYoshi ( talk • contribs) 23:01, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
as i said on your page stormfront is a racist site(though ethnocentrics like to use white racist nordicist to claim people when it suits them) and opinions from a yahoo question and anserw session are not reliable sources but there are sources that cite her ancestry as catalan ,italian and lebanese do you have any sources that she is mestizo-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 23:07, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.nndb.com/people/485/000023416/ Ask an average American if he/she thinks Shakira is white, he/she'll say no, Shakira will never be considered white in western society. Here in Brazil or Colombia she is considered morena/ or mixed races. It's not that I hate Shakira, it's just that she is not White. Besides wikipedia, nobody considers Shakira white. InuYoshi ( talk) 23:17, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
what makes her mixed race is the question? people consider Shannon Elizabeth white and she even has native american ancestry check her family tree out, which shakira has none of, first off you ask the average american and they think hispanic or latino is race LOL... there is a difference between reality and ignorance-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 23:24, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The vast majority of Americans do not consider her white, a friend of mine said "WHOA" when he saw Shakira being considered White in an American website like Wikipedia. Hispanic is an ethnicity, not a race, she is of Hispanic ethnicity InuYoshi ( talk) 23:33, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
i know what hispanic is but many americans are ignorant to this and think she is not white because she is colombian but americans with native american ancestry are still considered white such as shannon elizabeth, Heather Locklear, Johnny Depp Val Kilmer etc etc etc and with all this said shakira has no non caucasian ancestry all sources say she is italian catalan and lebanese and she is pale like a ghost but she has exotic features no different than Catherine Zeta Jones who is Welsh and Irish but she is still a white caucasian-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 23:47, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Shakira's natural skin color is very tan, she pretended to be white when she entered american marketing, but she is far from being white, her race is arabm and ethnicity is hispanic. Tom Lennox ( talk) 00:45, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Why not replace the picture of Shakira for the picture of Xuxa, since Xuxa is more white than Shakira. InuYoshi ( talk) 13:24, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Dude, I love Shakira, and I think she is one of the best musicians, I love her earlier songs, and she is definitely one of the most beautiful women on this planet. However I do not see her as a white womAn, and she is not. Just because she is not white does not make her any less cool or beautiful, it's just that she is not white. Halle Berry and Beyoncé are black, not white, that doesn't make theY any less beautiful, they are also two of the most beautiful women on the planet. There's nothing wrong with her not being white, it's just that she is not White.. And I don't hate arab people or people with arab descent. I love arabic music and I find arabs beautifully exotic. InuYoshi ( talk) 19:08, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Just because she is white does not mean she has to mean anything less to you,i mean you still have not come up with a reliable sources ,also arab is not a race though you do talk in terms like it is please stop being ethnocentric or whatever beyonce has nothing to do with this though she has white ancestry and halle berry is half white and yes they are beautiful,like i said earlier exoctic looks are also apart of the white phenotype now please sources are stop wasteing time and this issue has been raised before and settled in the same fashion this is not your personal oipnion in my personal opinion mariah carey is not black but i am not trying to pov her into being white on someother article-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 19:31, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
trolling comments by user inu yoshi deleted-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 20:48, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
What did I do wrong? I was just kidding when I said she was not white. Actually I am one of those who fight to prove that Shakira is white for those prejudiced Americans. InuYoshi ( talk) 20:55, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Is there a difference between white and caucasian? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.43.150.157 ( talk) 01:38, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Caucasians are people from the Caucasus, like Armenian, Gergians, Ossetian, Abkhazian, Chechnian,...
Whites are people with very light colored skin, but not albino —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
84.164.218.90 (
talk)
10:35, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
What about Thalia? Is She White? 201.68.139.157 ( talk) 18:23, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck its usualy is a duck ,can i ask you a question is kelly clarkson white?-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 18:51, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
No, Technically Kelly Clarkson is 100% pure grade "A" American. lol InuYoshi ( talk) 19:23, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Let's stop debating who is white who is not. For the matter, Thalia is White. InuYoshi ( talk) 21:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Well, in the White Mexican article Thalia is listed there, so I think she is white. InuYoshi ( talk) 22:50, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Why can't this "Who's White and Who's Non-White" BS end!!! Ignorant people out there in Wikipedia, THERE ARE WHITE PEOPLE IN LATIN AMERICA, AND IT IS A FACT! IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE FACTS, THEN THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM! STOP SPAMMING TALK PAGES BY SAYING "THIS PERSON IS NOT WHITE"! GROW UP, PEOPLE!!! Lehoiberri ( talk) 23:59, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Since there ar articles for white brazilian, argentine, cuban, mexican we could have one for White Colombians, in the infobox we can put Shakira and Gabriel Garcia Marquez. InuYoshi ( talk) 22:44, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Isn't Shakira Brunette? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.43.34.156 ( talk) 14:22, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes. Joker Begins ( talk) 17:26, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
oh brunette is a race now-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 14:58, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
He meant Morena, Shakira is morena, not white. 201.68.138.71 ( talk) 15:34, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Shakira is more asian than white 200.161.62.242 ( talk) 22:44, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Shakira is not white and Kman, Leihobem, wikiscribe and sandahl are the same person. Pé de Chinelo ( talk) 14:44, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Phoenicians also settled some parts of Europe, including Southern Spain, Italy, France and Greece. If Lebanese are not white, so many people in Europe are not. Opinoso ( talk) 01:20, 12 October 2008 (UTC).
There's a chance that Shakira may not be white, that's because some lebanese are white, not all. We have to consider if her father is a white colombian, I don't think so. So if her father is not white and her mom is, Shakira is only 50% white. 50% is not 100%, so a movie cut in two is not a movie at all, so Shakira may not be White at all. Pé de Chinelo ( talk) 23:19, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
SOME LEBANESE ARE WHITE, SOME ARE NOT, THERE ARE CHANCES THAT HER LEBANESE FATHER IS NOT WHITE Pé de Chinelo ( talk) 23:56, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
in this page, change her ethnicity to white if she is white and then I'll agree she is white, the site is here http://www.nndb.com/people/485/000023416/ ps: the lebanese are middle-eastern, not white. Pé de Chinelo ( talk) 00:12, 14 October 2008 (UTC).
Ok then. Pé de Chinelo ( talk) 00:28, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I called for this topic to be delete before it was trolled back again. Hopefully some one deletes it, or archive it, or do something that will stop the spammy trolls. Lehoiberri ( talk) 00:31, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
OK I'll give you that, Shakira is White. but don't delete this thread, we can use this as proof for other things. Pé de Chinelo ( talk) 14:41, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
I found a picture of Shakira with her parents. Her Lebanese father looks "whiter" than her Colombian Italian/Spanish mother:
http://www.myshakira.org/images/shakira_parents.jpg
So, Pé de Chinelo, how do you explain Shakira's Middle-Eastern father looks whiter than her "European"-descend mother?
Those trolls claim someone is not white basing in the country they were born or their surname. As the troll who months ago was claiming Nelly Furtado is not white, claiming she is "Hispanic", because she eventually sings in Spanish language, even though her parents are from Portugal and she has nothing to do with the "Hispanic World".
Why people do not claim Victoria Beckham is not white? Because she is British. If she were from Mexico or Guatemala, many trolls would call her "mestizo" or something similar. Opinoso ( talk) 18:06, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Her lebanese father has european ancestry. Pé de Chinelo ( talk) 18:50, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Lebanese are primary descendants of Phoenician settlers. The Arab colonists left their language, culture and traditions, but the local population remained with their Phoenician ancestry. Being an "Arab" does not mean you have to trace your ancestry to the Arabian Peninsula. Arab is a cultural aspect, not a race. The same applies to Hispanic, which is a cultural aspect. Hispanics can be of any race, the same goes to Arabs. Read the article Arab.
Not only Europeans can look "white". Maybe you should study History more and learn that all humans came from Africa, and all humans were of black skin 100,000 years ago. Those who left Africa and went to Europe, due to natural selection and genetic mutations, only the lighter skinned people survived in Europe, because of its cold weather (light skin absorbes more sun light), while those of dark skin tended to dissaper over the millennia. This phenomenon was not exclusive to Europe, it also happened in other parts of the world. White human skin is a recent phenomenon. Human species exists for only 130,000 to 200,000 years, and humans first arrived in Europe 40,000 years ago. The first people with blond hair only appeared 11,000 years ago (see article blond).
All Humans are descendants of a small group of humans who came from Africa. From China to Sweden, we all share the same ancestry and genetic structure. The genetic differences between a "white" and a "black" are so minimal and pathetic.
Races and ethnicities are created by people's mind. This stuff does not exist. If we go generations ago, we were all black people living in the middle of a jungle in Africa.
All I wrote is to say: not only humans in Europe can have look white. And all this "race" stuff is not serious, because everybody came from the same place. Everybody have black ancestors from Africa, including Shakira, her Lebanese father and, of course, you Pé de Chinelo. If you are a human being, of course.
MANY of the ancient "European" peoples first settled in the Middle-East and then re-immigrated to Europe.
So stop with this "she can't be white because her father is from Lebanon" or "her father looks white, so he has European ancestry". GO to school study biology or take a trip to Lebanon and stop trolling. Opinoso ( talk) 22:19, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Shakira doesn't belong to the white race. Tom Lennox ( talk) 18:48, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
In the section on Peru it lists alternative sources for the European ancestry and says "French (mainly Basques)"... What's the Freakazoid is that??????!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Basques would be Spaniards... Not French!!!! Or is there any justification? I'm not correcting it myself out of cautiousness... But really... That's really messed up!!!!! Undead Herle King ( talk) 05:07, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
What RBD members are white? RBD is a mexican pop group. Joker Begins ( talk) 13:08, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
All of them except Dulce Maria and Christian Chavez who look mestizo. Pé de Chinelo ( talk) 22:22, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Joker Begins ( talk) 11:51, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
there are small amount of mestizo cubans, also lets not confuse being mixed race(mestizo) with maybe having nominal native admixture,you stand corrected opinoso --
Wikiscribe (
talk)
03:18, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
You said: "there is no doubt that eva mendez is white the facts are there are little to none mestizo population in cuba most natives were killed off".
Nobody needs to have Amerindian ancestry to look like her. It can be the African blood as well. A person with 1/4 black ancestry can look exactly like Eva Mendes (I'm from Brazil and I know what I'm talking about).
It can be even Chinese (yes, a significant number of Chinese emigrated to Cuba) or something else.
Racial admixture is very intensive in Latin America, and a brother can look completly "white" and the other brother completly "non-white". Nobody can use only "physical apparence" in Latin America to say if a person is white or not. Only the person can say so.
By physical apparence, in my opinion, she does not look her ancestors came straight from Spain. Opinoso ( talk) 16:34, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
I have noticed some editors put Barbados, Bermuda, Haiti, Martinique, French Guiana, Guyana, and Trinidad and Tobago in this article, and these editors view these countries as part of Latin America. Are these countries part of Latin America? Many view the Spanish and Portuguese speaking areas as only Latin America. What do you all think? Lehoiberri ( talk) 18:20, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
SamEV is correct that Belize is one of those borderline instances where some people include it and some do not due to a lot migration from other Latin American countries, but it is definitely not a traditional Latin American country. According to the 2000 Belize census [3], the current language users (language they use at home) are as follows: Spanish 43%, Kriol 37%, English 5.6%, etc. In terms of language proficiency, 80% of Belizeans speak English either well or some, and 63% speak Spanish either well or some. That being said, since this article deals with White Latin Americans, I would not include Belize because the white population in Belize is only 4.3%, and of that 3.6% are Mennonites (mostly German speaking). So that leaves 0.8% of the country that is non-Mennonite white, and of that 0.8%, only a total of 49 people in 2000 Belize Census indicated that Spanish was their mother tongue. Unless we're going to put in the section that there are 49 white Latin Americans in Belize, I think it should be left out. Kman543210 ( talk) 03:49, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
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Why so many pictures of unknown models, such as Taliana Vargas or Valeska Saab?? (who are they??). It would be better to post pictures of more known people, or historic pictures of European immigrants in different countries of Latin America. Opinoso ( talk) 15:17, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. Too often these turn into "who's your favorite celebrity" galleries or lists. They don't all need to be currently famous, just notable in some way (of course that's subjective too). Kman543210 ( talk) 23:59, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Now this is getting ridiculous! Why is the Falkland Islands listed here, it is a FULLY RECOGNIZED British Territory. Only Argentina doesn't recognize it as British. The Falkland Island is NOT part of Latin America, and I bet you all that Falklander would find it offensive to be referred as Latinos/Hispanics since it would make the Falklands as an Argentinian territory. The Falkland Island is made up of primary people of British descent, and the offical language is English, not Spanish or Portuguese. Maybe I am the only Argentine with common sense, but serious remove the Falkland Islands! Lehoiberri ( talk) 03:13, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Can this be used as a reliable source... it seems to be very informative.
http://www.worldstatesmen.org/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jesusmariajalisco ( talk • contribs) 20:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
It seems that I am not the only one who thinks that this source is not very reliable.. Besise it contradicts with other sources. -- Fercho85 ( talk) 23:36, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
The list of white Latin Americans is unsourced. I think that if references cannot be found to show that a particular person identifies as a white Latin American, or in some way demonstrating that the person can be considered a white Latin American, then the person should be left off the list.
Ordinary Person ( talk) 05:17, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
there is a source for Shakira as well samev you know as well i as i do that she has been disscused to the point of nauseum on this very talk page-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 21:28, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
try clicking the link shakira is lebanese, catalonian and italian origin its right on her main article also samev if you wish to make an issue out of something deal with it maybe not everybody got time right now to scan the internet looking for everybody's ancestry but as i said a few have sources right on there main article if you remove shakira i will just re add her-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 21:43, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
here you go now any questions [4]-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 22:59, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
(SamEV here) Well, the deed is done, and here goes the list.
Authors
Entertainers Actors/Actresses
Musicians
Journalists
Models, beauty queens
Presidents and Political figures
Religious figures
Sports
And the people who were pictured alongside the list:
And other individuals whose images were scattered throughout the article:
Now in regards to the new-look infobox, I'll try to make refinements, probably change some pictures, as time goes by. Meantime, here's an issue we must resolve:
so basicaly find sources for the ancestry of these people and as we do they will get added back to the article-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 02:43, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
samev nobody had asked you to look for sources but anybody can whether its me or any other editor who comes along who wishes to do so can do so from time to time this is not a job where people are paid by the hour to perform tasks and there is no time limit-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 18:25, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
fantastic that you sourced 5 of them it was your choice just like it was my choice to find the one for shakira that you supposely could not find i did not look for an award so why should you-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 21:22, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Ordinary Person ( talk) 03:50, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
Well, that's my two cents. Ordinary Person ( talk) 04:30, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
I am not 100% sure about this one, but it is believed by some that Fidel Castro has some African ancestry from his mother's side. I am aware that his father was from Galicia, Spain, and his mother may have had Galician ancestry as well; however, this does not eliminate the possibility of her being of mixed ancestry. Here is a website that makes note of this possibility:
http://www.afrocubaweb.com/aboutacw.htm
Hopefully this will be taken under consideration. 69.235.143.22 ( talk) 20:48, 25 November 2008 (UTC) James Lopez
maybe i put out the wrong vibe, i am not trying to impose some sort of one drop rule, i just said what the ip suggested we can say about abraham lincoln there is a possibilty he might have some non white ancestry and what he is suggesting is that we remove fidel because there is a chance he might have some non white ancestry but under that arguement we can also remove abraham kincoln from the white american article in others words the ip's arguement is fallacious one and is hinting at a one drop rule-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 00:05, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
wait, im bad with this numbers, so somebody like fox is only 1/16 native american?-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 00:40, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
i would say, something around that would be be a good cut off that would be more like admixture one "great" grandparent was native american-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 01:06, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Hello. I am the original poster on this particular discussion area, and I must say that I apologize for initiating so much negativity and controversy here-- I assure everyone that it was unintentional. And no, I was not necessarily suggesting removing Fidel Castro from the list, nor do I subscribe to the one-drop theory. I am merely critical of the idea that Fidel Castro is always presumed to be white, and the question is: how do we know? Does he consider himself white? Do we really know his ancestry? It seems that he is always presumed to be white without any real evidence presented. No, I am not necessarily proposing a removal, nor do I think "purity" is a true factor in "whiteness" (or however sort of color one identifies with). Take are. 155.135.55.230 ( talk) 02:38, 26 November 2008 (UTC) James Lopez
Actually, Castro's mother was not from a priveleged background; she was a maid, which is fairly well-known. Fidel was born "illegitimately," and some sources say that his father did not acknowledge him immediately. Here is a source, in Spanish, that says that he was born poor but raised rich; not only that, but this source, among many others in Spanish, states that his mother, Lina Ruz, was mulata, hence acknowledging African ancestry (and probably not distant) for Fidel:
http://www.elgrancapitan.org/foro/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=9731
As far as I am concerned, he is white Latin American and should be included here; however, his possible non-white heritage may be more recent (and more important) than originally thought. Take care, all. 69.235.143.22 ( talk) 15:06, 26 November 2008 (UTC) James Lopez
i agree with samev proposals except for the matter about adding a footnote about individuals possible non white ancestry because there is already a statement to that fact about latin americans as a whole of having possible admixture, just like there is a similar statement about admixture on the White Americans article, also your two sources are weak one being a web forum and one being a special intrest web page that from what i can see only mentions about 70% of cubans as a whole as having possible black african ancestry.Plus this is the first time i ever heard of fidel castro having any possible black ancestors, if you want to try and add it to his main article by all means try it, there is a simlar more well known rumor about Warren G Harding the 29th president of the united states of having an african american grandparent but the source there is the new york times so its more plausable-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 22:24, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Let me say that I don't think that 7/8 should be the minimum. But I wanted us to establish the idea that some mixture was acceptable in order to establish that we would not be going the one drop rule route. 7/8 was a no-brainer.
In general, I propose that we include:
Notice that in all cases, reliable sources are required. There is no room for original research.
Your thoughts, everybody? SamEV ( talk) 22:47, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
okay but as you said people should assume 100% white ancestry though as you know when it comes to latin americans it's usually the opposite people incorrectly assume mixture ,but i don't want to get into a whole big deal about this ,if there will be footnotes so be it, but being we are talking people's ancestry the sources should be good reliable ones because some sources can be dubious or fringe ones-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 18:21, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
I do agree with the other person above that just because the person comes from Latin america you have to asume they are not white...if some of these exact people that we are not sure of where born in the US or Canada we wouldnt be as choosy as we are being on here..but ofcourse i thin its best to have references too..but since we are tring to make people aware of white people in Latin america , now we are being the picky ones, within reason. on a program in the uk they too english peoples dna thiking they had full english dna for generations and found one or two that has less than 10% sub-suharan dna..but were fully english..maybe thats the average dna..would like to know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.158.25.11 ( talk) 16:55, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Are people from India considered White? Pé de Chinelo ( talk) 14:17, 4 December 2008 (UTC)