White Deer Hole Creek is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 13, 2009. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Featured article |
This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
Any and all feedback appreciated. Thanks, Ruhrfisch 03:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Just from one editor to another, congratulations on an article largely written by yourself. I'm almost to that level of Wikipedia fluency with my creations, but I still tend to get rocky FA nominations up to a certain point. -- Zeality 05:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Note: I have copied the relevant parts of this discussion from the talk pages for myself and MacGyverMagic. Ruhrfisch 17:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
"In 1787, Caleb Farley settled on White Deer Hole Creek with his family (including his four year old son John), and built a mill on the creek by 1789."
Also, perhaps you should say "two etymologies have been suggested" instead of "are given". - Mgm| (talk) 11:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
As I said at FAC, this article is there. But that doesn't mean it can't be improved.
I printed it out and went through it with a red pen. I just got finished implementing my improvements, and here's a brief summary of the general things I did. Mainly these are things to keep in mind for future fascinating articles about minor tributaries of the Susquehanna.
Now, to two things that I couldn't address:
Also, the article discusses all those leftover bunkers in the last grafs. It's a little dry imagewise there ... it seems like it would be very easy if there are so many to go take a picture of one.
Once again, great article that does so many things right (You deserve especial praise, and perhaps a barnstar, for producing an FA with no redlinks whatsoever. Given the local peculiarity of some of the linked articles, that's no mean feat). Daniel Case 20:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
After a lot of looking and prompted by Daniel Case's question, I found and added discharge data, as well as two more references on discharge. Ruhrfisch 22:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
The article says that "John's father Caleb built a mill on the creek by 1789." John's father was, however, actually names John Farley (this older John is one of my ancestors). The source that is given for the information ( http://www.usgennet.org/usa/pa/county/lycoming/history/Chapter-39.html) actually agrees with this (it indicates that John's father was John, and that John built the mill).
Also, see ftp://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/pa/lycoming/history/local/whitedeer.txt, which is a transcription of an article appearing in the "Lycoming Gazette and West Branch Bulletin" in 1870. It contains part of an interview with John Farley (which is what is alluded to in the other source). John says that he "came here into this valley with my father, John Farley, in 1787."
Caleb Farley was a brother of the older John, and actually did come to White Deer Hole Valley (either with John or a few years later). KarlderGroße ( talk) 03:10, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
The first sentence of the "Watershed" section says, "The White Deer Hole Creek watershed is in Clinton (0.08%), Lycoming (4.40%), and Union (3.67%) counties." Shouldn't they add up to 100 percent? Finetooth ( talk) 22:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I found this creek on Reading Howell's 1792 Map Of The State Of Pennsylvania. Would it be worth mentioning or linking to this map in the article? According to the host, the images are available under cc-by-sa, so we should even be able to upload them to commons. – Sarregouset (talk) 23:48, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Finetooth comments: I tried to be thorough and treated this article pretty much the same as one coming to Peer Review. Excellent article, wonderful photos. I believe it taught me a new trick or two to apply to Tryon Creek, which is far less than half-baked at the moment.
Lead
Name
Course
Geology
Watershed
Water quality and pollution
Recreation
Lycoming County boundaries
Early inhabitants
Lumber and Logging Railroad
Ordinance plant to federal prison and game lands"
References
I hope this helps. Finetooth ( talk) 20:32, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi. I'd like to suggest that this article has a section covering the creek's ecological interest. There is some mention of this scattered across other sections (e.g. it's attractiveness to Trout, and the game species found in the area) but the article would merit a section covering this subject as a whole. SP-KP ( talk) 09:28, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
I removed "the U.S. state of" calling it "gratuitous overlinking". I was reverted with "... restore link to U.S. State. I believe that it needs to be mentioned. not all know where PA is". Now we have a compromise "delink US state, but leave it in as many outside the US are not as familiar with the states".
We certainly don't need to go back to linking U.S. State as it merely qualifies Pennsylvania, which itself is linked (two words after) and (naturally) links to U.S. State, and, more importantly, has next to nothing to do with this article. When I saw sentence complete with the link to U.S. State it immediately struck me as having been twisted for the mere purpose of adding this useless link. It's not uncommon for things on WP to be twisted around links. So I deleted the lot.
Now it's back, unlinked, since many outside are not so familiar with the states & might not know where Pennsylvania is. Fair enough, some of us non-Americans might not know that Pennsylvania is a US state. Are those who don't really that significant a proportion? Can they not just click on Pennsylvania? I'm glad that U.S. State is again unlinked but I still doubt the use in having it there at all. JIMp talk· cont 18:51, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
US state, if mentioned at all, should certainly not be linked (per WP:CONTEXT) since the topics of these articles are so distinct. I'm happy enough with the current compromise but do prefer your suggestion, Ruhrfisch.
White Deer Hole Creek is a 20.5-mile (33.0 km) tributary of the West Branch Susquehanna River in Clinton, Lycoming and Union counties in Pennsylvania in the United States.
Whilst it is good to know which country it's in, the fact that Pennsylvania happens to be a state is off topic. Though, might the above be a little wordy? How about this?
White Deer Hole Creek is a 20.5-mile (33.0 km) tributary of the West Branch Susquehanna River in Clinton, Lycoming and Union counties, Pennsylvania, USA.
JIMp talk· cont 20:55, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
I'd argue that readability doesn't simply increase with the reduction of number of characters: i.e. reducing the number of characters is not in itself necessarily a good thing. I wonder whether the underlying motive for the introduction of U.S. state wasn't to work this link in. Anyhow, I'd argue that ... in Pennsylvania in the United States ... is easier to swallow than ... in the US state of Pennsylvania ... (with its little tit-bit of irrelevant trivia tangled in there).
So, ditching the US state bit we've got a few different possible versions. Some perhaps choppy, others perhaps wordy. What if we listed them?
I'd suggested number 3 but if this is choppy and odd, how about number 2? Is this still choppy or odd? Do you see what I mean when I say number 1 is wordy: count the number if ins in the phrase. JIMp talk· cont 22:34, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Okay ...
... well, it does have fewer ins. If "Pennsylvania, USA" sounds odd in American English (I wouldn't know), it's numbers 0 or 1. JIMp talk· cont 07:39, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on White Deer Hole Creek. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 23:03, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on White Deer Hole Creek. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
ftp://ftp.dot.state.pa.us/public/pdf/BPR_PDF_FILES/Maps/Type_10_GHS_Historical_Scans/Union_1915.pdf{{
dead link}}
tag to
ftp://ftp.dot.state.pa.us/public/pdf/BPR_PDF_FILES/Maps/Type_10_GHS_Historical_Scans/Lycoming_1916.pdfWhen you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 07:47, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on White Deer Hole Creek. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 06:27, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm looking at this older featured article as part of WP:URFA/2020, a drive to spur improvements in older featured articles.
This one's not in bad shape, but some updates and a few improvements to the referencing are needed. If improvements don't occur, a featured article review may be necessary, although hopefully that can be avoided. I can help a little bit on this if there's going to be a concerted effort, but I just am not very familiar with where to find sources for this specific topic. Hog Farm Talk 03:53, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
I have updated the Name and Course sections, and am working on the rest of the article. I found a source for the watershed area covered by forests, urban development, etc. I am still looking for population by watershed. I have found several sources to update the water quality information, but need to figure out how best to present it (I need to make it clearer how different parts of the creek have different water qualities). Any feedback on changes so far is welcome, - Ruhrfisch ><>°° 13:16, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
White Deer Hole Creek is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 13, 2009. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Featured article |
This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
Any and all feedback appreciated. Thanks, Ruhrfisch 03:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Just from one editor to another, congratulations on an article largely written by yourself. I'm almost to that level of Wikipedia fluency with my creations, but I still tend to get rocky FA nominations up to a certain point. -- Zeality 05:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Note: I have copied the relevant parts of this discussion from the talk pages for myself and MacGyverMagic. Ruhrfisch 17:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
"In 1787, Caleb Farley settled on White Deer Hole Creek with his family (including his four year old son John), and built a mill on the creek by 1789."
Also, perhaps you should say "two etymologies have been suggested" instead of "are given". - Mgm| (talk) 11:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
As I said at FAC, this article is there. But that doesn't mean it can't be improved.
I printed it out and went through it with a red pen. I just got finished implementing my improvements, and here's a brief summary of the general things I did. Mainly these are things to keep in mind for future fascinating articles about minor tributaries of the Susquehanna.
Now, to two things that I couldn't address:
Also, the article discusses all those leftover bunkers in the last grafs. It's a little dry imagewise there ... it seems like it would be very easy if there are so many to go take a picture of one.
Once again, great article that does so many things right (You deserve especial praise, and perhaps a barnstar, for producing an FA with no redlinks whatsoever. Given the local peculiarity of some of the linked articles, that's no mean feat). Daniel Case 20:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
After a lot of looking and prompted by Daniel Case's question, I found and added discharge data, as well as two more references on discharge. Ruhrfisch 22:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
The article says that "John's father Caleb built a mill on the creek by 1789." John's father was, however, actually names John Farley (this older John is one of my ancestors). The source that is given for the information ( http://www.usgennet.org/usa/pa/county/lycoming/history/Chapter-39.html) actually agrees with this (it indicates that John's father was John, and that John built the mill).
Also, see ftp://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/pa/lycoming/history/local/whitedeer.txt, which is a transcription of an article appearing in the "Lycoming Gazette and West Branch Bulletin" in 1870. It contains part of an interview with John Farley (which is what is alluded to in the other source). John says that he "came here into this valley with my father, John Farley, in 1787."
Caleb Farley was a brother of the older John, and actually did come to White Deer Hole Valley (either with John or a few years later). KarlderGroße ( talk) 03:10, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
The first sentence of the "Watershed" section says, "The White Deer Hole Creek watershed is in Clinton (0.08%), Lycoming (4.40%), and Union (3.67%) counties." Shouldn't they add up to 100 percent? Finetooth ( talk) 22:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I found this creek on Reading Howell's 1792 Map Of The State Of Pennsylvania. Would it be worth mentioning or linking to this map in the article? According to the host, the images are available under cc-by-sa, so we should even be able to upload them to commons. – Sarregouset (talk) 23:48, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Finetooth comments: I tried to be thorough and treated this article pretty much the same as one coming to Peer Review. Excellent article, wonderful photos. I believe it taught me a new trick or two to apply to Tryon Creek, which is far less than half-baked at the moment.
Lead
Name
Course
Geology
Watershed
Water quality and pollution
Recreation
Lycoming County boundaries
Early inhabitants
Lumber and Logging Railroad
Ordinance plant to federal prison and game lands"
References
I hope this helps. Finetooth ( talk) 20:32, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi. I'd like to suggest that this article has a section covering the creek's ecological interest. There is some mention of this scattered across other sections (e.g. it's attractiveness to Trout, and the game species found in the area) but the article would merit a section covering this subject as a whole. SP-KP ( talk) 09:28, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
I removed "the U.S. state of" calling it "gratuitous overlinking". I was reverted with "... restore link to U.S. State. I believe that it needs to be mentioned. not all know where PA is". Now we have a compromise "delink US state, but leave it in as many outside the US are not as familiar with the states".
We certainly don't need to go back to linking U.S. State as it merely qualifies Pennsylvania, which itself is linked (two words after) and (naturally) links to U.S. State, and, more importantly, has next to nothing to do with this article. When I saw sentence complete with the link to U.S. State it immediately struck me as having been twisted for the mere purpose of adding this useless link. It's not uncommon for things on WP to be twisted around links. So I deleted the lot.
Now it's back, unlinked, since many outside are not so familiar with the states & might not know where Pennsylvania is. Fair enough, some of us non-Americans might not know that Pennsylvania is a US state. Are those who don't really that significant a proportion? Can they not just click on Pennsylvania? I'm glad that U.S. State is again unlinked but I still doubt the use in having it there at all. JIMp talk· cont 18:51, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
US state, if mentioned at all, should certainly not be linked (per WP:CONTEXT) since the topics of these articles are so distinct. I'm happy enough with the current compromise but do prefer your suggestion, Ruhrfisch.
White Deer Hole Creek is a 20.5-mile (33.0 km) tributary of the West Branch Susquehanna River in Clinton, Lycoming and Union counties in Pennsylvania in the United States.
Whilst it is good to know which country it's in, the fact that Pennsylvania happens to be a state is off topic. Though, might the above be a little wordy? How about this?
White Deer Hole Creek is a 20.5-mile (33.0 km) tributary of the West Branch Susquehanna River in Clinton, Lycoming and Union counties, Pennsylvania, USA.
JIMp talk· cont 20:55, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
I'd argue that readability doesn't simply increase with the reduction of number of characters: i.e. reducing the number of characters is not in itself necessarily a good thing. I wonder whether the underlying motive for the introduction of U.S. state wasn't to work this link in. Anyhow, I'd argue that ... in Pennsylvania in the United States ... is easier to swallow than ... in the US state of Pennsylvania ... (with its little tit-bit of irrelevant trivia tangled in there).
So, ditching the US state bit we've got a few different possible versions. Some perhaps choppy, others perhaps wordy. What if we listed them?
I'd suggested number 3 but if this is choppy and odd, how about number 2? Is this still choppy or odd? Do you see what I mean when I say number 1 is wordy: count the number if ins in the phrase. JIMp talk· cont 22:34, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Okay ...
... well, it does have fewer ins. If "Pennsylvania, USA" sounds odd in American English (I wouldn't know), it's numbers 0 or 1. JIMp talk· cont 07:39, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on White Deer Hole Creek. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 23:03, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on White Deer Hole Creek. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
ftp://ftp.dot.state.pa.us/public/pdf/BPR_PDF_FILES/Maps/Type_10_GHS_Historical_Scans/Union_1915.pdf{{
dead link}}
tag to
ftp://ftp.dot.state.pa.us/public/pdf/BPR_PDF_FILES/Maps/Type_10_GHS_Historical_Scans/Lycoming_1916.pdfWhen you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 07:47, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on White Deer Hole Creek. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 06:27, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm looking at this older featured article as part of WP:URFA/2020, a drive to spur improvements in older featured articles.
This one's not in bad shape, but some updates and a few improvements to the referencing are needed. If improvements don't occur, a featured article review may be necessary, although hopefully that can be avoided. I can help a little bit on this if there's going to be a concerted effort, but I just am not very familiar with where to find sources for this specific topic. Hog Farm Talk 03:53, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
I have updated the Name and Course sections, and am working on the rest of the article. I found a source for the watershed area covered by forests, urban development, etc. I am still looking for population by watershed. I have found several sources to update the water quality information, but need to figure out how best to present it (I need to make it clearer how different parts of the creek have different water qualities). Any feedback on changes so far is welcome, - Ruhrfisch ><>°° 13:16, 4 December 2022 (UTC)