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To Tannin regarding :
" Japan also carries out commercial whaling operations, which are thinly disguised as "science". The "research" is conducted under the auspices of the Institute of Cetacean Research, a privately owned organisation planned years in advance and officially founded in 1987 by a whaling company, equipped by that company with a factory ship and other associated equipment, crewed by former company employees, and selling roughly US$60 million dollars worth of whale products each year. Although whaling "ended" in May 1987, the same whaling fleet, with the same crews, was back in the Southern Ocean harvesting whales by December of that year, and carrying the processed whale products back to Japan for sale."
Whether you agree with it or not, Japan is conducting scientific research under the auspices of the IWC and is therefor not carrying out commercial whaling operations. It is a requirement of IWC membership to sell any meat taken from research catches ...
" thinly disguised as "science " is stating a point of view or do you disagree ?
"Many species of whale are close to extinction" - Other than Right whales, which species are "close to extinction" ? please be more specific.
"Whales are amongst the most intelligent of the non-human animals. " POV ... can you supply evidence to back this up?
Tannin, please explain why you reverted. -- Nanshu 02:58, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Tannin,
You are maintaining that Japan conducts "commercial " whaling activities. Under the International Convention for the Regulation for Whaling. As a signatory to the ICRW, they are required to process any catch and sell it in order to finance it. Those are the rules, plain and simple. Norway conducts a commercial hunt - Japan does not
(Reply to Tannin)
The Institute of Cetacean Research is a nonprofit research organization. ( from their own charter )and has special legal status in Japan. How can they ( ICR )be commercial if they cannot make a profit?.
Commercial-viewed with regard to profit
Norwegian commercial whaling is conducted by 34 ( at last count ) licenced fishing boats who sell their catch to distributors, who in turn sell the meat via commercial outlets. The only say the government has in the matter is to set the catch quota and conditions of license and supply the veterinary inspectors for each boat ( which the whaling vessel owners have to pay for themselves) That is a commercial hunt by definition.
As it stands, some parts of the article have an obvious anti-whaling bias, mainly this part below ..
"Japan also carries out commercial whaling operations, which are thinly disguised as "science". The "research" is conducted under the auspices of the Institute of Cetacean Research, a privately owned organisation planned years in advance and officially founded in 1987 by a whaling company, equipped by that company with a factory ship and other associated equipment, crewed by former company employees, and selling roughly US$60 million dollars worth of whale products each year. Although whaling "ended" in May 1987, the same whaling fleet, with the same crews, was back in the Southern Ocean harvesting whales by December of that year, and carrying the processed whale products back to Japan for sale. "
Surely the object here is to present a NPOV and let the reader make up their own minds based upon the available data. " This is utter nonsense, and everyone knows it" is a biased POV. " Japan also carries out commercial whaling operations, which are thinly disguised as "science" is a biased POV. I would quite happily go along with wording such as " The ICR conducts whaling activities blah blah - however, critics of Japanese whaling maintain that Japan carries out commercial whaling operations, which are thinly disguised as "science" or words to that affect ad infinitum. The issue here is whether or not wikipedia wants to present a NPOV or a biased one.. Sumeria 17:00 8 Mar 2004 (CET)
"[T]he International Whaling Commission [and] its scientific committee ..... have repeatedly criticised Japanese whaling, and called for it to cease." - Can anyone show any links confirming this? Given that the whole point of the provision was to give whaling country a cover, I'm rather suprise by this.
Pcb21 said "Japan - it is slightly ludicrous to retry this "scientific research" argument in the week that Japan again asked to call it commercial whaling, but I have rewritten in NPOV anyway"
A respected Cetacean scientist studying cetacean intelligence ( Dr. Margaret Klinowska, of the Animal Welfare and Human-Animal Interactions Group at the University of Cambridge ) states:
" There is no trans-species definition of intelligence, simplistic notions based on absolute brain-mass or brain-to-body-weight ratios are specious. Cetacean brains are structurally more primitive than those of hedgehogs and they score lower than ferrets in learning ability. Attempts to teach dolphins to communicate have succeeded only in producing sequential ordering of responses for reward. Dr. Klinowska concluded that by implying that only intelligent or otherwise "special" animals are worthy of consideration, the myth of cetacean intelligence was counterproductive to animal welfare and conservation." (Quoted from Conference on Problems and Strategies in the Scientific Management of Fisheries and Marine Mammals..April 12, 1994)
Please list or cite these comparative studies between cetaceans and other non-human animals Tannin, one or two will do.
Or readers may conclude (c) You have your own agenda, which is reinforced by your POV above. Correct me (newbie) if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that a neutral pov was the objective on wikipedia Sumeria
LOL ... go ahead, you are on a hiding to nothing with this one ;o) Sumeria13:15, 8 Mar 2004
I think this section is a must in the issue of whaling. Can someone write about things such as policy of Scientific Comittee or accusation of vote buying? 02:37, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
This section reads (as of the current revision)
It is clear we are not progressing just in summary messages, so I want to spell out why I don't like parts of this text:
This is really bad. Firstly it is a complete non sequitur. Because it is accepted wrong to do X, it doesn't necessarily mean it is right to do Y!
Next it is making an opinion - "these species... should remain open to commercial utilisation." This is POV right at the heart of the argument, and thus always has to be attributed. (This is why the whole article is littered with attributions, because virtually everything is a battleground).
Next my short paragraph about the non-recovering species unlikely to be hunted again has been removed twice. I don't understand why - it is true (the pro-whaling argument is always about sustainable use - they never propose unrenewable use). It is important to make readers aware of this and yet someone with a pro-whaling POV is actively removing text that shows them in a good light!
Next the use of non-standard names (Coalfish Whale, Pot Whale, White Whale, Hump Whale) and use a mix of species names and subspecies/population names. We should stick to accepted species names through out - no use long discontinued names that are listed by the IUCN as "also called" for backwards compatibility.
But importantly - why are we throwing red herrings about the relative safety of species that were not typical targets for hunting, and certainly back on the hunting agenda anytime soon? It is complete madness in the context of whaling to talk about the safety of the Melon-headed Whale as some sort of counterbalance to Fin, Sei, Blue etc. It is the (direct) equivalent of saying "Oh let's not worry about the tigers dying off in India, there's still plenty of lions in Africa."
Am I wrong in any of this? Pcb21| Pete 13:34, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
If you don't like what anti-whaler side of arguments or the information (such as the Red List), that is just tough. I'm very sorry to hear that some people have different opinion from you and do not agree with what you say. You might think the argument or information provided by pro-whaling side to be red-hearing/irrelevant. But pro-whaling side think the same thing about the antiwhaling arguments(information) too. "Add" extra information or argument instead of trying to censor the other side of argument. If you think the other side of argument is spurious, leave it as long as correct attribution are made. You are free to counter it by "adding" the counter argument or counter information. Plus if any argument is spurious or red-hearing, the reader of Wikepedia would think the same and it will be good for your side. What you are doing is hardly conductive to the spirit of Wikipedia especially when you haven't responded to the above responses I have made. And lastly, if someone didn't merge two separate sections, we wouldn't have had this entire debate in the first place. FWBOarticle
Lastly, I should mention that "I" and pro-whaling side find the information to be relevant. So you should not delet the list for that reason alone. You are free to provide commentary to the list from your anti-whaling perspective. You are certainly free to comment that most species on the list are not currently listed on the target though I beg to differ on such interpretation. Also, you are free to provide additional information. I might find the information to be irrelevant. But I know that is my POV. The fact that you find the information relevant is a good enough for me to leave it alone because I don't find myself qualified to decided what is relevant for you. If all of us start deleting information/argument based on our POV, then nothing can be said. FWBOarticle
I have deleted Atlantic Grey Whale. It is not listed in the Red List and this section specifically state that it is the RedList. The reason "atlantic" grey whale didn't get the menion is not mine or you to decide. I'm fine with your deletion of Killer Whales. FWBOarticle 15:59, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
My objection.
FWBOarticle 16:59, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I should make it clear that I do not have problem with you presenting the lists of population status. Nor I intent to interfear about mentioning extinction of Atlantic Grey Whale population. You might notice that I intially moved Atlantic Grey Whale into paragraph below. I'm not doing it now because I can't be bothered to do it for each edit. What I have problem is you interfering with me showing that according to RedList there is no whale species which has gone extinct. I understand that you think there is a "possibility" that this assesement may be wrong but even you appear to agree that this is not the dominaint scientific opinion. Secondly, by including Atlantic Grey Whale in the list, the description of the list have to be downgraded from IUCN Red list to the list based on IUCN list. This is to do great injustice to the impartiality of the presentation. Thirdly, before inclusion of Atlantic Grey Whales, it was comprehensive overall list of the conservation status of whale species. By including Atlantic Grey Whales, one population of whales species, you wreck the comprehenvie nature of that presentation. I agree whole heartedly that more detailed information about population specific information of EACH species would be significant improvement especially when it can be refered back to the current target of scientific whaling and abologinal subsistence whaling. But this should not be done in manner which wreck the distinction of species and population. IUCN list do recognise different population of each species but they do not specifically assign conservation status for each population. Therefore, it is inappropriate to mix population list in IUCN. And lastly and most importantly, each status in the list from extinct/eandangered/valuneable/LowRisk has specific scientifict qualifications. Atlantic Grey Whale does not fall into this specific scienfitic qualifications. Grey Whales is included as Low Risk. Atlantic Grey Whales is not species. The each rank is applied to species. By including Atlantic Grey Whales in extinc cagegory, it poison the integrity of othere classification. So Please leave Atlantic Grey Whale out of IUCN list. You are free to create more comprehensive list for each whales population. As of conservation status of each population, I urge you to find impartial source. If I find the source to be biased, I will be compelled to make counter presentation. I leave IUCN list because I consider to be impartial enough though Japanese government side find it not to be their liking. FWBOarticle 05:08, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
http://www.cites.org/eng/append/appendices.shtml It is third party impartial source. You have to do fair bit of work by yourself though. FWBOarticle 08:05, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Can someone tidy up the presentation by use of table format so it won't take up too much space? FWBOarticle 20:02, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Somewhat you seems intend to revert
"However, those in favour of whaling point out that pigs are also amongst the most intelligent of mammals and this fact would make the entire assertion by anti-whaler redundant unless it is about vegetarianism."
into
"However, those in favour of whaling point out that pigs are also amongst the most intelligent of mammals."
Now, the above sentences are in response to
"Anti-whaling campaigners and nations say that cetaceans are amongst most intelligent of all non-humans and thus it is morally wrong to kill them for food"
While anti whaling side are not only permited to mention fact (cetaceans being the most intelligent), they were given space to make moral inference (thus it is morally wrong to kill them for food). On the other hand, prowhaling side are only allowed to mention fact (pig also being the most intelligent) but are denied to make moral inference (this fact would make the entire assertion by anti-whaler redundant unless it is about vegetarianism.). If you want, you can go to Japanese Wikepedia site about whaling issue. Use translation programme if you can't read Japanese. This point is made explicitly. FWBOarticle 15:31, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
"知的生物としての鯨
捕鯨反対派は、クジラの巨大な脳容積や、音波によって同族間の緊密なコミュニケーションをとっているらしいことを挙げて、「知能が高い動物を食べるのは残酷である」と主張する。
それに対し、推進派は、芸をする豚などを例に挙げ、「豚も高度な知能を持っているが、なぜ食べることが許されるのか。クジラが駄目で豚がよいというのは、単なる文化的差異に過ぎない」と反論する。これについて、反対派は、「豚は神様が家畜として与えたもうたもの、鯨はそうではない」という反論をすることがある。"
The cruelity issue being red hearing given the killing of farm cattle is again common argument raised by prowhaling side. Here are an example from High North Alliance. http://www.highnorth.no/Cartoon/de-cu-to.htm You can get similar thing from here. http://www.highnorth.no/Cartoon/cartoon1.htm
This is the main objection to cruelty argument, not about recent improvement in harpooning technique. If you are not happy with my standard of English, you are welcome to correct and improve it. FWBOarticle 15:40, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
You also deleted issue regarding aboliginal susbistence whaling and accusation of racism and cultural imperialism. I call your attention to this two article from BBC.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2003658.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1578812.stm
And a article from
http://www.highnorth.no/Library/Culture/ab-su-wh.htm
As you appear to be from u.k. you may not have come across this issue so often. However, it is very relevant issue especially in North America and Japan. So I consider the termination of the entire issue to be inappripriate. In your version, even the term "abologinal subsistence", one of three officially recognised category of whaling is not mentioned. If you are not happy with my English, you are welcome to improve on it. FWBOarticle 23:32, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Your paragraph may be reasonable in term of correct use of English. It is awfully inadequate due to the failiure to discuss the issue involving the aboliginal subsistence whaling. Come on, this is one of the three officially recognised category of whaling. No article of whaling is complete without it. FWBOarticle 23:32, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I accept that you consider Japan's general charge of Racism/CulturalImperialism as well as specific charge of DoublStandard/Hypocracy in the matter of indigenous cultures to be "rant". However, as you can see from the bbc article, the fact that such charge are commonly accepted by japanese public and specifically commented by high ranking official is a fact. I have made correct attribution in this regard. I shouldn't have to remind you that NPOV does not mean non "objective" view ought to be censored. We merely present relevant views with correct attribution and Japanese view is certainly relevant. Whether that is a rant or not is POV. FWBOarticle 23:32, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
It is spelt "endangered" not "endengered". Thanks. Pcb21| Pete 07:12, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
In the context of the whale, it is spelt "Gray" not "Grey". Thanks. Pcb21| Pete 19:38, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC) (and yes, I know, English isn't your strong point.)
In any context its "aboriginal" not "aboliginal".
Note that in your recently added "Aboliginal [sic] Subsistence Whaling" every single sentence contains at least one spelling error or is grammatically incorrect. In most cases, both apply. Once it makes sense, maybe we can start to talk about how ridiculously pro-Japanese POV the whole thing is. Pcb21| Pete 00:55, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
As I did with the Faroe Islands article, I've split off the aboriginal whaling section with a short summary left in place - as per the Wikipedia:Summary style policy. Previously we had two sections on aboriginal whaling - I hope I have merged them both into the new article - Aboriginal whaling in an NPOV way. At the same time I did a Engrish to English translation :-). Pcb21| Pete 12:34, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)
There is nothing particularly special about aboriginals here - I hope to break Whaling in Norway, Whaling in Iceland and Whaling in Japan as the sections get more substantial. Pcb21| Pete 12:34, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)
"these populations, whilst not regarded as separate species, are considered to warrant sub categorisation.". Does Red List state the reason for subcategorisation? If not it should merely state that these population is categories into different population. FWBOarticle 20:19, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
And I really believe that we should archive this page. There has been significant rearrangement of the original article by you and me. It is good point to start anew. Me don't know how to archive a page. :) FWBOarticle 20:19, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
You have repeatedly refused to listen to me - as evidenced by your new claim that the extinct population of AGWs is not recognised by the IUCN. It is mentioned in three places in the IUCN AGW entry. Removal of valid, IUCN-approved information will from now on result in automatic revert. Pcb21| Pete 10:47, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I'm not clear of your reference. Can you provide me with links and page number. If Atlantic Grey Whales is accorded separate population status with proper IUCN conservation category, then go ahead. It appear that several population of Righ Whales among others indeed have proper IUCN status assigned so I apologise for the deletion of these whale population. FWBOarticle 10:54, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
From http://www.redlist.org/search/details.php?species=8097
Pcb21| Pete 11:07, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Re new sections: Hi FWBO. I know we've had a tricky time building a working relationship, so I wanted to try to take things slowly with your most recent additions... however a lot of what you adding is repeating what we have at International Whaling Commission. We need to take a look at the logical arrangement of sections... things seem to getting a bit out-of-hand. Maybe we should draw up some a layout plan here? Pcb21| Pete 19:55, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I saw you converted to a table. Although I think the list looks neater (and others do too in general see Wikipedia:How to use tables and its talk page), lets stick with the table so that I don't revert everything you do :)! However we cannot have, for example, the Pacific Blue Whale subspecies in the Endangered column - it must go in the Lower Risk/CD column where it belongs - similarly for the other populations - else the table simply has data in the wrong columns. Note this means that some populations "move to the right" (i.e. are listed under a less endangered column" and others "move to the left" - it is not all one way. Pcb21| Pete 07:49, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I saw you undid my change wrt to right whales species. Actually the North Pacific and North Atlantic Right Whales are two separate species ( Eubalaena glacialis and Eubalaena japonica)
The Gray Whale northeast population appears both in the 'critically endangered' column and the 'lower risk' column. The gray whale page has it as lower risk. Should it be under both?
Could someone revert the document back to last version made by Apyule? 61.91.145.67 vandalized the article, and I don't know how to revert.
It is my belief that Hokanomono has a chip on his shoulder against Greenpeace or anything anti-whaling. I base this on the fact that he reverted one of my updates with the description of 'removing greenpeace propaganda'. I have no affiliation with any 'animal rights' group.
I recently updated the Japan section to reflect the global trends and reactions to Japanese incursions in Australian coastal waters, the current trend of whale being on Japanese school menu's and the argument that it is 'culturally acceptable' to slaughter whales under the guise of 'research' yet use the produce for food.
This is all based on various media sources (Reuters, news.com.au, CNN) and citing references would be moot as it was global news in each instance. Therefore the validity of my edit is not in question.
I wish to ask that Hokanomono cease unthought reverts on his knee-jerk POV receptiveness on this subject and instead heed to a more Wikipedian code of conduct on the matter. I am writing this for the benefit of those who noticed my revert and for Hokanomono. Jachin 23:09, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Part of your entry states:
"In recent years, through its fisheries aid funding, the Japanese Fisheries Agency has been amassing a group of small, impoverished island states such as Tuvalu, Palau and Grenada (among many others, plus African countries such as Guinea and Benin, and even the landlocked Mongolia) to create a pro-whaling bloc in the International Whaling Commission, in an attempt to "buy" its way back to commercial whaling."
That "may" or "may" not be the case, but if you wish a NPOV, you should also include the anti- whaling lobbying to include countries such as Switzerland and various other landlocked countries who do not or have never been whaling countries. As it stands, your first paragraph really does resemble Greenpeace propaganda. I really "should" write a paragraph or two on how the present state of affairs at the IWC is a direct result of anti-whaling "gaming" of the politics and make-up of the IWC Plenary commitee. Whilst I´m at it, I´ll include how the plenary committee politicians have ignored many aspects of the scientific committee´s recommendations for the last 15 years or so
As for this :
"This is backed up by the fact that all whale meat from 'research harvested whales' is sold to resteraunts, recently even becoming a menu item in certain Japanese school cafeteria's under the guise of it being a 'cultural dish'. This indicates that the whales were killed for cultural dining purposes and not research, which would be in direct breach of the IWC's mandates."
It´s a requirement of their permit that the meat be sold to offset costs - It´s an IWC requirment / rule. I suggest you read the ICRW in detail, particularly Article VIII
Numbers :
Japan Kills around 470 minke whales whales in the antartic each year - they plan to increase that to 900 and to add some fin and humpback whales in the antartic to the total number. So they do not " kill almost a thousand whales for ´research` - they do have a dolphin drive fishery which would knock the numbers up however, but that´s another subject entirely and has no place in this article.
Please do not rely on "media" sources in your edits - they are notoriously unreliable and biased in their own right.
07:48, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Done ;o)11:12, 3 November 2005
This article still seems to be strongly POV. For such a large quantity of material devoted to Japanese whaling, there is a tiny amount given to the views of the critics of the Japanese whaling programme. The only reason I can see for having such a large section devoted to Japan is because there is a lot of controversy surrounding it. Of course the best thing would be to cut this section down significantly, and include prominent mention of the controvertial nature of the subject. Certainly get rid of obviously POV wording such as "it is hypocritical and inconsistent". I might come back in a while and if no-one else has done a clean-up, I'll either attempt it myself or post "POV" and "Controversial" boilerplates on the article. Fuzzypeg 04:17, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
A detailed description of all the various allegations and counter-allegations can go the Whaling in Japan and IWC articles. Pcb21| Pete 12:05, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi Pete, We actually have met once upon a time in a cold faraway place;). Yes, I try hard to keep my edits neutral or present a neutralising (opposite )point of view but it´s not the easiest of things to do when most folk rely on media as fact. I do understand the field/ subject pretty well from a professional standpoint as you might remember;). How´s about this - I´ll look over what "I" think should be changed / edited to provide a less biased article, communicate that to you for ummmmm review/discussion and we can go from there?. Be warned though, there are swathes I intend to adress/add to when I find the time;) some of which I´ll detail below in my reply to Apyule SammytheSeal 14:57, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
To Apyule, I´ll answer you here as opposed to your talk page so as to save repeating myself. Some anti-whaling bias ....
Looks like a media article / NGO quote but whatever, If someone can provide independant references ..I see similar "facts" in the media even today regarding Norway´s "blubber mountain" ( which has´nt existed for a number of years )I´ll do some extra research of my own and get back to you on that one
Has no place in the whaling article - If anywhere, it should be in the Whaling in Japan article ( which incidentally, would probably be more correctly called Japanese whaling as most of their whaling operations are in the antartic ) it should also be pointed out ( as it did until you reverted it )that anti-whaling NGO´s did exactly the same in the lead up to the 1982 moratorium - and have continued to recruit anti-whaling nations into the IWC ever since. The politics or gaming in the IWC should´nt really be in the whaling article at all - they should really be in the appropriate articles ( IWC, whaling in Japan etc )
(Sigh...) Japan conducts research under the auspices of the ICRW and has presented the results of said research to the IWC scientific committee. To allege that the hunt is commercial is simply flawed in view of the $/yen figures. It does not make a profit even when partially subsidised. (20% of total program cost in 1999 ) Here´s a quote from Dr Ray Gambell, former Secretariat of the IWC : " When the 1946 Convention under which we operate was signed, one of the major articles introduced by the USA was the provision for a government to be able to issue permits for research purposes. That has always been in the Convention and many governments over the years have caught quite large numbers of whales for research purposes but associated with that provision is whales are too valuable just to catch, measure and throw away. If you catch whales for research purposes, the requirement is that they are fully utilised and the products disposed of in a way that the government decides. In other words, the products have to be fully utilised and Japan is doing what every other government has done in previous years. It's using the whales for research, getting the research results which are sent to the Scientific Committee of the IWC and it's putting the products into the market place"
BTW Pete, it was the US who pushed to have that clause put in - they wanted to continue to hunt Sperm whales for Spermacetti oil, which was used as gyroscope lubricant.
This should also be in the whaling in Japan article
Justified? It was for scientific purposes - I´d remove that.
Belongs elsewhere - The Norwegian hunt ( and export )is legal despite what Morley thinks - Norway conducts a sustainable hunt and their self- imposed quotas are way below what they would be allowed if the IWC finally adopted the RMS/RMP.
There are NO inexperienced whalers ( actually, that should read gunners ) onboard Norwegian whaling boats - there is a rigid program in place to test and check the abilities of the gunners, which they must attend yearly before the whaling season starts.( at their own cost incidentally )If they don´t pass the course, they have their gunner licence taken away. I suspect a similar program in Japan but will check. As to the rest of the " Organic growth; Method of killing " paragraph, I´d like to point out that there is NO 100% humane method of killing - the arguement that all whaling should be stopped because whales cannot be killed humanely is ridiculous - following that arguement, we´d all be vegetarians..
I´m not going to go anywhere near the subject of loopholes in the IWC at the moment. way too much work;)
Okey dokey, enough for now ;) comments? SammytheSeal 14:57, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
I reorganized the Japanese section into more of a historical time-line. I hope this makes it NPOV enough that everyone is happy. There is already a huge section on vote-buying allegations in the International Whaling Commission page, so I added a link to that, and removed from this page. Mattopia 16:52, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
A link to a whale meat recipe page is not needed in this article. It adds nothing to the content of the article and would be like having a link to elk recipes in the hunting article. Plus, this is an encyclopedia, not a web directory. -- Apyule 12:44, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
This section : " In particular, not a single country in the Southern Hemisphere is currently whaling or intends to, and proposals to permanently forbid whaling South of the Equator are defended by the abovementioned developing countries plus Peru, Uruguay, Australia, and New Zealand, which strongly object to the continuation of Japanese whaling in the Antarctic under the guise of " scientific catches".
Is´nt strictly true, Indonesia (Lamalera) has a small Sperm whale hunt and small numbers of killer whales, beaked whales and small cetaceans are taken, last time I looked, Indonesia is in the Southern Hemisphere. SammytheSeal 23:12, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
If there are nations that object to uteriorly motivated 'scientific catches' they should force the US to lift extortion of sanctions against Japan if it should lodge an objection against the IWC moratorium but they don't seem to care (mind you these nations' governments have a long tradition of imposing voodoo economic policies). Copue441 14:47, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
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To Tannin regarding :
" Japan also carries out commercial whaling operations, which are thinly disguised as "science". The "research" is conducted under the auspices of the Institute of Cetacean Research, a privately owned organisation planned years in advance and officially founded in 1987 by a whaling company, equipped by that company with a factory ship and other associated equipment, crewed by former company employees, and selling roughly US$60 million dollars worth of whale products each year. Although whaling "ended" in May 1987, the same whaling fleet, with the same crews, was back in the Southern Ocean harvesting whales by December of that year, and carrying the processed whale products back to Japan for sale."
Whether you agree with it or not, Japan is conducting scientific research under the auspices of the IWC and is therefor not carrying out commercial whaling operations. It is a requirement of IWC membership to sell any meat taken from research catches ...
" thinly disguised as "science " is stating a point of view or do you disagree ?
"Many species of whale are close to extinction" - Other than Right whales, which species are "close to extinction" ? please be more specific.
"Whales are amongst the most intelligent of the non-human animals. " POV ... can you supply evidence to back this up?
Tannin, please explain why you reverted. -- Nanshu 02:58, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Tannin,
You are maintaining that Japan conducts "commercial " whaling activities. Under the International Convention for the Regulation for Whaling. As a signatory to the ICRW, they are required to process any catch and sell it in order to finance it. Those are the rules, plain and simple. Norway conducts a commercial hunt - Japan does not
(Reply to Tannin)
The Institute of Cetacean Research is a nonprofit research organization. ( from their own charter )and has special legal status in Japan. How can they ( ICR )be commercial if they cannot make a profit?.
Commercial-viewed with regard to profit
Norwegian commercial whaling is conducted by 34 ( at last count ) licenced fishing boats who sell their catch to distributors, who in turn sell the meat via commercial outlets. The only say the government has in the matter is to set the catch quota and conditions of license and supply the veterinary inspectors for each boat ( which the whaling vessel owners have to pay for themselves) That is a commercial hunt by definition.
As it stands, some parts of the article have an obvious anti-whaling bias, mainly this part below ..
"Japan also carries out commercial whaling operations, which are thinly disguised as "science". The "research" is conducted under the auspices of the Institute of Cetacean Research, a privately owned organisation planned years in advance and officially founded in 1987 by a whaling company, equipped by that company with a factory ship and other associated equipment, crewed by former company employees, and selling roughly US$60 million dollars worth of whale products each year. Although whaling "ended" in May 1987, the same whaling fleet, with the same crews, was back in the Southern Ocean harvesting whales by December of that year, and carrying the processed whale products back to Japan for sale. "
Surely the object here is to present a NPOV and let the reader make up their own minds based upon the available data. " This is utter nonsense, and everyone knows it" is a biased POV. " Japan also carries out commercial whaling operations, which are thinly disguised as "science" is a biased POV. I would quite happily go along with wording such as " The ICR conducts whaling activities blah blah - however, critics of Japanese whaling maintain that Japan carries out commercial whaling operations, which are thinly disguised as "science" or words to that affect ad infinitum. The issue here is whether or not wikipedia wants to present a NPOV or a biased one.. Sumeria 17:00 8 Mar 2004 (CET)
"[T]he International Whaling Commission [and] its scientific committee ..... have repeatedly criticised Japanese whaling, and called for it to cease." - Can anyone show any links confirming this? Given that the whole point of the provision was to give whaling country a cover, I'm rather suprise by this.
Pcb21 said "Japan - it is slightly ludicrous to retry this "scientific research" argument in the week that Japan again asked to call it commercial whaling, but I have rewritten in NPOV anyway"
A respected Cetacean scientist studying cetacean intelligence ( Dr. Margaret Klinowska, of the Animal Welfare and Human-Animal Interactions Group at the University of Cambridge ) states:
" There is no trans-species definition of intelligence, simplistic notions based on absolute brain-mass or brain-to-body-weight ratios are specious. Cetacean brains are structurally more primitive than those of hedgehogs and they score lower than ferrets in learning ability. Attempts to teach dolphins to communicate have succeeded only in producing sequential ordering of responses for reward. Dr. Klinowska concluded that by implying that only intelligent or otherwise "special" animals are worthy of consideration, the myth of cetacean intelligence was counterproductive to animal welfare and conservation." (Quoted from Conference on Problems and Strategies in the Scientific Management of Fisheries and Marine Mammals..April 12, 1994)
Please list or cite these comparative studies between cetaceans and other non-human animals Tannin, one or two will do.
Or readers may conclude (c) You have your own agenda, which is reinforced by your POV above. Correct me (newbie) if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that a neutral pov was the objective on wikipedia Sumeria
LOL ... go ahead, you are on a hiding to nothing with this one ;o) Sumeria13:15, 8 Mar 2004
I think this section is a must in the issue of whaling. Can someone write about things such as policy of Scientific Comittee or accusation of vote buying? 02:37, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
This section reads (as of the current revision)
It is clear we are not progressing just in summary messages, so I want to spell out why I don't like parts of this text:
This is really bad. Firstly it is a complete non sequitur. Because it is accepted wrong to do X, it doesn't necessarily mean it is right to do Y!
Next it is making an opinion - "these species... should remain open to commercial utilisation." This is POV right at the heart of the argument, and thus always has to be attributed. (This is why the whole article is littered with attributions, because virtually everything is a battleground).
Next my short paragraph about the non-recovering species unlikely to be hunted again has been removed twice. I don't understand why - it is true (the pro-whaling argument is always about sustainable use - they never propose unrenewable use). It is important to make readers aware of this and yet someone with a pro-whaling POV is actively removing text that shows them in a good light!
Next the use of non-standard names (Coalfish Whale, Pot Whale, White Whale, Hump Whale) and use a mix of species names and subspecies/population names. We should stick to accepted species names through out - no use long discontinued names that are listed by the IUCN as "also called" for backwards compatibility.
But importantly - why are we throwing red herrings about the relative safety of species that were not typical targets for hunting, and certainly back on the hunting agenda anytime soon? It is complete madness in the context of whaling to talk about the safety of the Melon-headed Whale as some sort of counterbalance to Fin, Sei, Blue etc. It is the (direct) equivalent of saying "Oh let's not worry about the tigers dying off in India, there's still plenty of lions in Africa."
Am I wrong in any of this? Pcb21| Pete 13:34, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
If you don't like what anti-whaler side of arguments or the information (such as the Red List), that is just tough. I'm very sorry to hear that some people have different opinion from you and do not agree with what you say. You might think the argument or information provided by pro-whaling side to be red-hearing/irrelevant. But pro-whaling side think the same thing about the antiwhaling arguments(information) too. "Add" extra information or argument instead of trying to censor the other side of argument. If you think the other side of argument is spurious, leave it as long as correct attribution are made. You are free to counter it by "adding" the counter argument or counter information. Plus if any argument is spurious or red-hearing, the reader of Wikepedia would think the same and it will be good for your side. What you are doing is hardly conductive to the spirit of Wikipedia especially when you haven't responded to the above responses I have made. And lastly, if someone didn't merge two separate sections, we wouldn't have had this entire debate in the first place. FWBOarticle
Lastly, I should mention that "I" and pro-whaling side find the information to be relevant. So you should not delet the list for that reason alone. You are free to provide commentary to the list from your anti-whaling perspective. You are certainly free to comment that most species on the list are not currently listed on the target though I beg to differ on such interpretation. Also, you are free to provide additional information. I might find the information to be irrelevant. But I know that is my POV. The fact that you find the information relevant is a good enough for me to leave it alone because I don't find myself qualified to decided what is relevant for you. If all of us start deleting information/argument based on our POV, then nothing can be said. FWBOarticle
I have deleted Atlantic Grey Whale. It is not listed in the Red List and this section specifically state that it is the RedList. The reason "atlantic" grey whale didn't get the menion is not mine or you to decide. I'm fine with your deletion of Killer Whales. FWBOarticle 15:59, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
My objection.
FWBOarticle 16:59, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I should make it clear that I do not have problem with you presenting the lists of population status. Nor I intent to interfear about mentioning extinction of Atlantic Grey Whale population. You might notice that I intially moved Atlantic Grey Whale into paragraph below. I'm not doing it now because I can't be bothered to do it for each edit. What I have problem is you interfering with me showing that according to RedList there is no whale species which has gone extinct. I understand that you think there is a "possibility" that this assesement may be wrong but even you appear to agree that this is not the dominaint scientific opinion. Secondly, by including Atlantic Grey Whale in the list, the description of the list have to be downgraded from IUCN Red list to the list based on IUCN list. This is to do great injustice to the impartiality of the presentation. Thirdly, before inclusion of Atlantic Grey Whales, it was comprehensive overall list of the conservation status of whale species. By including Atlantic Grey Whales, one population of whales species, you wreck the comprehenvie nature of that presentation. I agree whole heartedly that more detailed information about population specific information of EACH species would be significant improvement especially when it can be refered back to the current target of scientific whaling and abologinal subsistence whaling. But this should not be done in manner which wreck the distinction of species and population. IUCN list do recognise different population of each species but they do not specifically assign conservation status for each population. Therefore, it is inappropriate to mix population list in IUCN. And lastly and most importantly, each status in the list from extinct/eandangered/valuneable/LowRisk has specific scientifict qualifications. Atlantic Grey Whale does not fall into this specific scienfitic qualifications. Grey Whales is included as Low Risk. Atlantic Grey Whales is not species. The each rank is applied to species. By including Atlantic Grey Whales in extinc cagegory, it poison the integrity of othere classification. So Please leave Atlantic Grey Whale out of IUCN list. You are free to create more comprehensive list for each whales population. As of conservation status of each population, I urge you to find impartial source. If I find the source to be biased, I will be compelled to make counter presentation. I leave IUCN list because I consider to be impartial enough though Japanese government side find it not to be their liking. FWBOarticle 05:08, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
http://www.cites.org/eng/append/appendices.shtml It is third party impartial source. You have to do fair bit of work by yourself though. FWBOarticle 08:05, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Can someone tidy up the presentation by use of table format so it won't take up too much space? FWBOarticle 20:02, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Somewhat you seems intend to revert
"However, those in favour of whaling point out that pigs are also amongst the most intelligent of mammals and this fact would make the entire assertion by anti-whaler redundant unless it is about vegetarianism."
into
"However, those in favour of whaling point out that pigs are also amongst the most intelligent of mammals."
Now, the above sentences are in response to
"Anti-whaling campaigners and nations say that cetaceans are amongst most intelligent of all non-humans and thus it is morally wrong to kill them for food"
While anti whaling side are not only permited to mention fact (cetaceans being the most intelligent), they were given space to make moral inference (thus it is morally wrong to kill them for food). On the other hand, prowhaling side are only allowed to mention fact (pig also being the most intelligent) but are denied to make moral inference (this fact would make the entire assertion by anti-whaler redundant unless it is about vegetarianism.). If you want, you can go to Japanese Wikepedia site about whaling issue. Use translation programme if you can't read Japanese. This point is made explicitly. FWBOarticle 15:31, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
"知的生物としての鯨
捕鯨反対派は、クジラの巨大な脳容積や、音波によって同族間の緊密なコミュニケーションをとっているらしいことを挙げて、「知能が高い動物を食べるのは残酷である」と主張する。
それに対し、推進派は、芸をする豚などを例に挙げ、「豚も高度な知能を持っているが、なぜ食べることが許されるのか。クジラが駄目で豚がよいというのは、単なる文化的差異に過ぎない」と反論する。これについて、反対派は、「豚は神様が家畜として与えたもうたもの、鯨はそうではない」という反論をすることがある。"
The cruelity issue being red hearing given the killing of farm cattle is again common argument raised by prowhaling side. Here are an example from High North Alliance. http://www.highnorth.no/Cartoon/de-cu-to.htm You can get similar thing from here. http://www.highnorth.no/Cartoon/cartoon1.htm
This is the main objection to cruelty argument, not about recent improvement in harpooning technique. If you are not happy with my standard of English, you are welcome to correct and improve it. FWBOarticle 15:40, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
You also deleted issue regarding aboliginal susbistence whaling and accusation of racism and cultural imperialism. I call your attention to this two article from BBC.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2003658.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1578812.stm
And a article from
http://www.highnorth.no/Library/Culture/ab-su-wh.htm
As you appear to be from u.k. you may not have come across this issue so often. However, it is very relevant issue especially in North America and Japan. So I consider the termination of the entire issue to be inappripriate. In your version, even the term "abologinal subsistence", one of three officially recognised category of whaling is not mentioned. If you are not happy with my English, you are welcome to improve on it. FWBOarticle 23:32, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Your paragraph may be reasonable in term of correct use of English. It is awfully inadequate due to the failiure to discuss the issue involving the aboliginal subsistence whaling. Come on, this is one of the three officially recognised category of whaling. No article of whaling is complete without it. FWBOarticle 23:32, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I accept that you consider Japan's general charge of Racism/CulturalImperialism as well as specific charge of DoublStandard/Hypocracy in the matter of indigenous cultures to be "rant". However, as you can see from the bbc article, the fact that such charge are commonly accepted by japanese public and specifically commented by high ranking official is a fact. I have made correct attribution in this regard. I shouldn't have to remind you that NPOV does not mean non "objective" view ought to be censored. We merely present relevant views with correct attribution and Japanese view is certainly relevant. Whether that is a rant or not is POV. FWBOarticle 23:32, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
It is spelt "endangered" not "endengered". Thanks. Pcb21| Pete 07:12, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
In the context of the whale, it is spelt "Gray" not "Grey". Thanks. Pcb21| Pete 19:38, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC) (and yes, I know, English isn't your strong point.)
In any context its "aboriginal" not "aboliginal".
Note that in your recently added "Aboliginal [sic] Subsistence Whaling" every single sentence contains at least one spelling error or is grammatically incorrect. In most cases, both apply. Once it makes sense, maybe we can start to talk about how ridiculously pro-Japanese POV the whole thing is. Pcb21| Pete 00:55, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
As I did with the Faroe Islands article, I've split off the aboriginal whaling section with a short summary left in place - as per the Wikipedia:Summary style policy. Previously we had two sections on aboriginal whaling - I hope I have merged them both into the new article - Aboriginal whaling in an NPOV way. At the same time I did a Engrish to English translation :-). Pcb21| Pete 12:34, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)
There is nothing particularly special about aboriginals here - I hope to break Whaling in Norway, Whaling in Iceland and Whaling in Japan as the sections get more substantial. Pcb21| Pete 12:34, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)
"these populations, whilst not regarded as separate species, are considered to warrant sub categorisation.". Does Red List state the reason for subcategorisation? If not it should merely state that these population is categories into different population. FWBOarticle 20:19, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
And I really believe that we should archive this page. There has been significant rearrangement of the original article by you and me. It is good point to start anew. Me don't know how to archive a page. :) FWBOarticle 20:19, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
You have repeatedly refused to listen to me - as evidenced by your new claim that the extinct population of AGWs is not recognised by the IUCN. It is mentioned in three places in the IUCN AGW entry. Removal of valid, IUCN-approved information will from now on result in automatic revert. Pcb21| Pete 10:47, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I'm not clear of your reference. Can you provide me with links and page number. If Atlantic Grey Whales is accorded separate population status with proper IUCN conservation category, then go ahead. It appear that several population of Righ Whales among others indeed have proper IUCN status assigned so I apologise for the deletion of these whale population. FWBOarticle 10:54, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
From http://www.redlist.org/search/details.php?species=8097
Pcb21| Pete 11:07, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Re new sections: Hi FWBO. I know we've had a tricky time building a working relationship, so I wanted to try to take things slowly with your most recent additions... however a lot of what you adding is repeating what we have at International Whaling Commission. We need to take a look at the logical arrangement of sections... things seem to getting a bit out-of-hand. Maybe we should draw up some a layout plan here? Pcb21| Pete 19:55, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I saw you converted to a table. Although I think the list looks neater (and others do too in general see Wikipedia:How to use tables and its talk page), lets stick with the table so that I don't revert everything you do :)! However we cannot have, for example, the Pacific Blue Whale subspecies in the Endangered column - it must go in the Lower Risk/CD column where it belongs - similarly for the other populations - else the table simply has data in the wrong columns. Note this means that some populations "move to the right" (i.e. are listed under a less endangered column" and others "move to the left" - it is not all one way. Pcb21| Pete 07:49, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I saw you undid my change wrt to right whales species. Actually the North Pacific and North Atlantic Right Whales are two separate species ( Eubalaena glacialis and Eubalaena japonica)
The Gray Whale northeast population appears both in the 'critically endangered' column and the 'lower risk' column. The gray whale page has it as lower risk. Should it be under both?
Could someone revert the document back to last version made by Apyule? 61.91.145.67 vandalized the article, and I don't know how to revert.
It is my belief that Hokanomono has a chip on his shoulder against Greenpeace or anything anti-whaling. I base this on the fact that he reverted one of my updates with the description of 'removing greenpeace propaganda'. I have no affiliation with any 'animal rights' group.
I recently updated the Japan section to reflect the global trends and reactions to Japanese incursions in Australian coastal waters, the current trend of whale being on Japanese school menu's and the argument that it is 'culturally acceptable' to slaughter whales under the guise of 'research' yet use the produce for food.
This is all based on various media sources (Reuters, news.com.au, CNN) and citing references would be moot as it was global news in each instance. Therefore the validity of my edit is not in question.
I wish to ask that Hokanomono cease unthought reverts on his knee-jerk POV receptiveness on this subject and instead heed to a more Wikipedian code of conduct on the matter. I am writing this for the benefit of those who noticed my revert and for Hokanomono. Jachin 23:09, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Part of your entry states:
"In recent years, through its fisheries aid funding, the Japanese Fisheries Agency has been amassing a group of small, impoverished island states such as Tuvalu, Palau and Grenada (among many others, plus African countries such as Guinea and Benin, and even the landlocked Mongolia) to create a pro-whaling bloc in the International Whaling Commission, in an attempt to "buy" its way back to commercial whaling."
That "may" or "may" not be the case, but if you wish a NPOV, you should also include the anti- whaling lobbying to include countries such as Switzerland and various other landlocked countries who do not or have never been whaling countries. As it stands, your first paragraph really does resemble Greenpeace propaganda. I really "should" write a paragraph or two on how the present state of affairs at the IWC is a direct result of anti-whaling "gaming" of the politics and make-up of the IWC Plenary commitee. Whilst I´m at it, I´ll include how the plenary committee politicians have ignored many aspects of the scientific committee´s recommendations for the last 15 years or so
As for this :
"This is backed up by the fact that all whale meat from 'research harvested whales' is sold to resteraunts, recently even becoming a menu item in certain Japanese school cafeteria's under the guise of it being a 'cultural dish'. This indicates that the whales were killed for cultural dining purposes and not research, which would be in direct breach of the IWC's mandates."
It´s a requirement of their permit that the meat be sold to offset costs - It´s an IWC requirment / rule. I suggest you read the ICRW in detail, particularly Article VIII
Numbers :
Japan Kills around 470 minke whales whales in the antartic each year - they plan to increase that to 900 and to add some fin and humpback whales in the antartic to the total number. So they do not " kill almost a thousand whales for ´research` - they do have a dolphin drive fishery which would knock the numbers up however, but that´s another subject entirely and has no place in this article.
Please do not rely on "media" sources in your edits - they are notoriously unreliable and biased in their own right.
07:48, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Done ;o)11:12, 3 November 2005
This article still seems to be strongly POV. For such a large quantity of material devoted to Japanese whaling, there is a tiny amount given to the views of the critics of the Japanese whaling programme. The only reason I can see for having such a large section devoted to Japan is because there is a lot of controversy surrounding it. Of course the best thing would be to cut this section down significantly, and include prominent mention of the controvertial nature of the subject. Certainly get rid of obviously POV wording such as "it is hypocritical and inconsistent". I might come back in a while and if no-one else has done a clean-up, I'll either attempt it myself or post "POV" and "Controversial" boilerplates on the article. Fuzzypeg 04:17, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
A detailed description of all the various allegations and counter-allegations can go the Whaling in Japan and IWC articles. Pcb21| Pete 12:05, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi Pete, We actually have met once upon a time in a cold faraway place;). Yes, I try hard to keep my edits neutral or present a neutralising (opposite )point of view but it´s not the easiest of things to do when most folk rely on media as fact. I do understand the field/ subject pretty well from a professional standpoint as you might remember;). How´s about this - I´ll look over what "I" think should be changed / edited to provide a less biased article, communicate that to you for ummmmm review/discussion and we can go from there?. Be warned though, there are swathes I intend to adress/add to when I find the time;) some of which I´ll detail below in my reply to Apyule SammytheSeal 14:57, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
To Apyule, I´ll answer you here as opposed to your talk page so as to save repeating myself. Some anti-whaling bias ....
Looks like a media article / NGO quote but whatever, If someone can provide independant references ..I see similar "facts" in the media even today regarding Norway´s "blubber mountain" ( which has´nt existed for a number of years )I´ll do some extra research of my own and get back to you on that one
Has no place in the whaling article - If anywhere, it should be in the Whaling in Japan article ( which incidentally, would probably be more correctly called Japanese whaling as most of their whaling operations are in the antartic ) it should also be pointed out ( as it did until you reverted it )that anti-whaling NGO´s did exactly the same in the lead up to the 1982 moratorium - and have continued to recruit anti-whaling nations into the IWC ever since. The politics or gaming in the IWC should´nt really be in the whaling article at all - they should really be in the appropriate articles ( IWC, whaling in Japan etc )
(Sigh...) Japan conducts research under the auspices of the ICRW and has presented the results of said research to the IWC scientific committee. To allege that the hunt is commercial is simply flawed in view of the $/yen figures. It does not make a profit even when partially subsidised. (20% of total program cost in 1999 ) Here´s a quote from Dr Ray Gambell, former Secretariat of the IWC : " When the 1946 Convention under which we operate was signed, one of the major articles introduced by the USA was the provision for a government to be able to issue permits for research purposes. That has always been in the Convention and many governments over the years have caught quite large numbers of whales for research purposes but associated with that provision is whales are too valuable just to catch, measure and throw away. If you catch whales for research purposes, the requirement is that they are fully utilised and the products disposed of in a way that the government decides. In other words, the products have to be fully utilised and Japan is doing what every other government has done in previous years. It's using the whales for research, getting the research results which are sent to the Scientific Committee of the IWC and it's putting the products into the market place"
BTW Pete, it was the US who pushed to have that clause put in - they wanted to continue to hunt Sperm whales for Spermacetti oil, which was used as gyroscope lubricant.
This should also be in the whaling in Japan article
Justified? It was for scientific purposes - I´d remove that.
Belongs elsewhere - The Norwegian hunt ( and export )is legal despite what Morley thinks - Norway conducts a sustainable hunt and their self- imposed quotas are way below what they would be allowed if the IWC finally adopted the RMS/RMP.
There are NO inexperienced whalers ( actually, that should read gunners ) onboard Norwegian whaling boats - there is a rigid program in place to test and check the abilities of the gunners, which they must attend yearly before the whaling season starts.( at their own cost incidentally )If they don´t pass the course, they have their gunner licence taken away. I suspect a similar program in Japan but will check. As to the rest of the " Organic growth; Method of killing " paragraph, I´d like to point out that there is NO 100% humane method of killing - the arguement that all whaling should be stopped because whales cannot be killed humanely is ridiculous - following that arguement, we´d all be vegetarians..
I´m not going to go anywhere near the subject of loopholes in the IWC at the moment. way too much work;)
Okey dokey, enough for now ;) comments? SammytheSeal 14:57, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
I reorganized the Japanese section into more of a historical time-line. I hope this makes it NPOV enough that everyone is happy. There is already a huge section on vote-buying allegations in the International Whaling Commission page, so I added a link to that, and removed from this page. Mattopia 16:52, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
A link to a whale meat recipe page is not needed in this article. It adds nothing to the content of the article and would be like having a link to elk recipes in the hunting article. Plus, this is an encyclopedia, not a web directory. -- Apyule 12:44, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
This section : " In particular, not a single country in the Southern Hemisphere is currently whaling or intends to, and proposals to permanently forbid whaling South of the Equator are defended by the abovementioned developing countries plus Peru, Uruguay, Australia, and New Zealand, which strongly object to the continuation of Japanese whaling in the Antarctic under the guise of " scientific catches".
Is´nt strictly true, Indonesia (Lamalera) has a small Sperm whale hunt and small numbers of killer whales, beaked whales and small cetaceans are taken, last time I looked, Indonesia is in the Southern Hemisphere. SammytheSeal 23:12, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
If there are nations that object to uteriorly motivated 'scientific catches' they should force the US to lift extortion of sanctions against Japan if it should lodge an objection against the IWC moratorium but they don't seem to care (mind you these nations' governments have a long tradition of imposing voodoo economic policies). Copue441 14:47, 23 January 2006 (UTC)