![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
See RFC here: /info/en/?search=Talk:Istvaeonic_languages#RFC._Merge?_Split?_Re-name? -- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 08:16, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Future editors please note that some editing and talk page history relevant to this article is included at Istvaeonic languages which was temporarily a merged article incorporating material relevant to this article and also Istvaeones (which is now split). Here is the relevant talk page material on the redirect article.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 09:34, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
This whole section needs re-thinking. It seems to suggest that W-R Gmc can be equated with Old Dutch, and equates Elbe Gmc with OHG. That means it is completely muddled about the origins of all Frankish dialects apart from Low Franconian. Also the material in the second half gives the appearance of being well sourced, but in fact both the Swan and Wells sources are about the views of Vennemann (the Swan ref is for a volume edited by him, but the chapter is by Vennemann), whose idiosyncratic views on "Low Germanic" and "High Germanic" are not widely shared. Niebaum does not seem to be the source of the statement attributed to him - it looks like someone has drawn their own conclusions from his maps. As far as I can see this stems mostly or entirely from an edit in Istvaeonic Languages and is consistent with the nonsensical map that was previously on that page. If it was just up to me, I would scrap the whole section and rewrite it from scratch. -- Pfold ( talk) 19:18, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
As this is a slow moving article, I'll just use this new section to collect quotes and comments for the future.
Maurers interdisziplinĂ€rer Ansatz (neben der frĂŒhgeschichtl. Arch. bezog er auch die Volkskunde in seine Argumentation ein) hat die Sprachgeschichtsforsch. bewegt, letztlich aber kein Fundament schaffen können, das Bestand gehabt hĂ€tte - das gilt auch fĂŒr die weitere These Maurers, daĂ die merow. Kultur die Voraussetzungen geschaffen hĂ€tte fĂŒr die spĂ€teren ,westgerm.` Sprachgemeinsamkeiten (wie die Konsonantengemination; 1). Zur kritischen Beurteilung vgl. (3, 36. 161).The critical reference '3' is SchĂŒtzeichel R. . Die Grundlagen des w. Mitteldeutschen, 1976.
Maurer's interdisciplinary approach (in addition to the early historical arch. He also included folklore in his argumentation) has linguistic history research. moved, but ultimately unable to create a foundation that would have lasted - this also applies to Maurer's further thesis that the merow. Culture would have created the prerequisites for the later 'Westgerm' linguistic similarities-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 10:26, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
This article should not, whether purposely or accidentally, suggest or imply that Weser-Rhine Germanic is the (i.e. singular) direct ancestor of the modern West German dialects. Weser-Rhine Germanic is, supposedly, the first stratum, correct, but the influence of Elbe Germanic, i.e. the later Upper German dialects which greatly influenced West Central German both phonologically and idiomatically; both through language contact and Standard German cannot be left out. The exact phrasing is, as far as I am concerned, open for discussion, but this article must include and mention later and immense influences of the High German consonant shift when linking modern West Central German and Maurer's pre-migration period conceptions. Vlaemink ( talk) 11:55, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
See RFC here: /info/en/?search=Talk:Istvaeonic_languages#RFC._Merge?_Split?_Re-name? -- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 08:16, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Future editors please note that some editing and talk page history relevant to this article is included at Istvaeonic languages which was temporarily a merged article incorporating material relevant to this article and also Istvaeones (which is now split). Here is the relevant talk page material on the redirect article.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 09:34, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
This whole section needs re-thinking. It seems to suggest that W-R Gmc can be equated with Old Dutch, and equates Elbe Gmc with OHG. That means it is completely muddled about the origins of all Frankish dialects apart from Low Franconian. Also the material in the second half gives the appearance of being well sourced, but in fact both the Swan and Wells sources are about the views of Vennemann (the Swan ref is for a volume edited by him, but the chapter is by Vennemann), whose idiosyncratic views on "Low Germanic" and "High Germanic" are not widely shared. Niebaum does not seem to be the source of the statement attributed to him - it looks like someone has drawn their own conclusions from his maps. As far as I can see this stems mostly or entirely from an edit in Istvaeonic Languages and is consistent with the nonsensical map that was previously on that page. If it was just up to me, I would scrap the whole section and rewrite it from scratch. -- Pfold ( talk) 19:18, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
As this is a slow moving article, I'll just use this new section to collect quotes and comments for the future.
Maurers interdisziplinĂ€rer Ansatz (neben der frĂŒhgeschichtl. Arch. bezog er auch die Volkskunde in seine Argumentation ein) hat die Sprachgeschichtsforsch. bewegt, letztlich aber kein Fundament schaffen können, das Bestand gehabt hĂ€tte - das gilt auch fĂŒr die weitere These Maurers, daĂ die merow. Kultur die Voraussetzungen geschaffen hĂ€tte fĂŒr die spĂ€teren ,westgerm.` Sprachgemeinsamkeiten (wie die Konsonantengemination; 1). Zur kritischen Beurteilung vgl. (3, 36. 161).The critical reference '3' is SchĂŒtzeichel R. . Die Grundlagen des w. Mitteldeutschen, 1976.
Maurer's interdisciplinary approach (in addition to the early historical arch. He also included folklore in his argumentation) has linguistic history research. moved, but ultimately unable to create a foundation that would have lasted - this also applies to Maurer's further thesis that the merow. Culture would have created the prerequisites for the later 'Westgerm' linguistic similarities-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 10:26, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
This article should not, whether purposely or accidentally, suggest or imply that Weser-Rhine Germanic is the (i.e. singular) direct ancestor of the modern West German dialects. Weser-Rhine Germanic is, supposedly, the first stratum, correct, but the influence of Elbe Germanic, i.e. the later Upper German dialects which greatly influenced West Central German both phonologically and idiomatically; both through language contact and Standard German cannot be left out. The exact phrasing is, as far as I am concerned, open for discussion, but this article must include and mention later and immense influences of the High German consonant shift when linking modern West Central German and Maurer's pre-migration period conceptions. Vlaemink ( talk) 11:55, 4 November 2022 (UTC)