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These two sections are about Werner Erhard not the company itself. They really should be in the Werner Erhard article. If no one has anything to say about this for a couple of days, I am going to move these sections to the Werner Erhard Article. Buddysystem 18:05, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Smeelgova- can you say more about why you see these as so relevant? Buddysystem 18:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Most of the statements here are inaccurate -- just read the references given. I propose the section be removed. WE&A and Werner Erhard were never found guilty of tax evasion and there is not a 'civil tax evasion'. FreedomByDesign 23:11, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I just read through both the explaination of Margolis schemes ( http://www.assetprotectionbook.com/reinvoicing.htm) and the Erhard v. IRS decision of 1995 from the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ( http://www.assetprotectionbook.com/erhard.htm)cited in this article to figure out some of the legal questions
As Werner Erhard and Associates has been established as a sole proprietorship, subsidiaries could not have existed, so I deleted that section from the box. Ftord1960 23:10, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
The caption for the photo of Erhard on Larry King Live incorrectly states that Erhard was on the show December 20. The linked transcript says that Heber Jentzsch was the guest. They played some clips of Erhard, and Erhard's brother Harry Rosenberg called in, but Erhard was not on the show on December 20, as the linked transcript shows. I have not found a reliable source for the actual date Erhard was on the show, but the following sources agree it was December 8, 1993 in an episode titled "Whatever Happened to Werner Erhard?":
I'm going to change the date in the caption and remove the transcript link. If someone wants to put the Dec 20 transcript somewhere else that's relevant or can find the Dec 8 transcript, great! Roccoconon 01:14, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, the images are under the "Taxation Issues" and "Abuse Allegations" sections in each respective article. I think this violates NPOV by implying that's why he was on Larry King. He was in fact on Larry King once he went into exhile. Hence, the episode title "Whatever Happened to Werner Erhard?". The Dec 20 episode focused on Scientology. It's a minor point, but I definitely think we should move the image to the post-1991 section or the Scientology section. Roccoconon 20:40, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I reworked the lead to say WHAT WEA was, and to state more clearly its relationships to EST and Landmark Forum. Landmark Forum is not the successor organization to WEA. I believe that in questions of corporate governance, it is appropriate to use Art Schreiber (corporate counsel) as a primary source, rather than various journalistic references (secondary sources) that may not get the technical details correct. Tertiary POV sources such as Rick Ross are not a Reliable Source on this subject. Wiki generally prefers secondary sources, but in the details of corporate structure, the primary source is likely to be more accurate and not of questionable POV. (I should come up with a better reference for this, and will dig around later today if I have a chance). Ratagonia 17:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I removed the reference to Margolis Schemes. WEA was not a suspected Margolis scheme (whereas, EST was) and therefore it is inappropriate to speculate that it is. (If you'd like to put this back in, find a NPOV source that states that WEA is a Margolis Scheme, please). Ratagonia 17:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
If you are unhappy with these edits, please Talk here, or work on the details, rather than reverting in toto. Please, and thank you. Ratagonia 17:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
== Successive organizational names ==
Name | From | To |
The Foundation for the Realization of Man | 1973 | July 1976 |
The est Foundation | July 1976 | February 1981 |
Werner Erhard and Associates | February 1981 | January 16, 1991 |
Breakthrough Technologies | January 16, 1991 | January 23, 1991 |
Transnational Education Corp. | January 23, 1991 | May 7, 1991 |
Landmark Education Corporation | May 7, 1991 | February 2003 |
Landmark Education, LLC | February 2003 | present [update] |
-- Pedant17 23:04, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
The link to the IRS V Erhard and the diagram is superfluous and not relevant to this article. I read through the whole thing expecting to find something significant, criminal, sinister, whatever. All this thing is is a very boring account of an appeal of a tax decision by the IRS. The appeal was denied on further review. OK. So???? What is the point of having this in the article? All I can conclude is that someone put it in to try to insinuate something about the subject of the article which if it is the case is in violation of WP:POV. Ebay3 17:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps a resourceful editor could write a highly sourced article from extremely reliable and relevant sources on the tax case? Hint, hint: This would also be an opportunity for a highly coveted DYK award for any editor who wanted to take on the horrific task of Google searching sources! Lsi john 20:33, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
In essence, Erhard sold his "body of knowledge" to an overseas holding and licensing corporation, to which est pays a maximal portion of its gross income in the form of pre-tax royalties. Now located in the Netherlands, this holding corporation pays 7 percent in Dutch taxes and then sends all its profits to the tax-exempt "Werner Erhard Foundation for est" in Switzerland, which owns the holding corporation outright. est, meanwhile, pays 30 percent in American taxes on its minimal post-royalty income. All the remaining profits go to the Werner Erhard Charitable Settlement, a tax-exempt trust on the Isle of Jersey, which owns est.
Image 1
Phase two took place on or about August 27, 1981, and was financed by three separate loans to WEA from Terla, B.V., in the total amount of $6,580,000. The proceeds of these loans were then used by WEA as follows: To est, a.e.c. for adjustments on assets purchased; to Welbehagen, B.V., for the Body of Knowledge; to Antigua Banking Ltd., as repayment of a loan and for the purchase of certain loans; to Associated Advisors for the purchase of the auxiliary sloop Sirona. On August 27, 1981, est, a.e.c. made three transfers to Welbehagen, B.V., in the total amount of $4,571,250. The following diagram reflects the money movements that were generated in phase two and the results achieved
Before we remove the "Self-published" tag from the Werner Erhard and Associates article, it would help to address the issue of quoting self-published material or explain why we should ignore the matter. -- Pedant17 02:55, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Before we replace the wording "marketing and selling the est training" with "offering the est training", it would help to discuss designing and delivering as well as marketing. -- Pedant17 02:55, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Before removing the section on income which read:
== Income == [[Image:Est1.png|thumb|right|250px|Image 1, United States Tax Court, diagram of Werner Erhard tax transactions.]] The diagram shows sample income-flows associated with Werner Erhard and Associates ("WEA"), as detailed for a United States federal tax-case hearing. Compare [[Harry Margolis | Margolis scheme]].
with the edit-summary "not accurate", it would help to point out the nature and scope of the alleged inaccuracy or inaccuracies with a view to helping to fix it/them. -- Pedant17 02:55, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Image:Werner Erhard Larry King Live.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 06:46, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Added {{ No more links}} to External links section. Cirt ( talk) 14:17, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
These two sections are about Werner Erhard not the company itself. They really should be in the Werner Erhard article. If no one has anything to say about this for a couple of days, I am going to move these sections to the Werner Erhard Article. Buddysystem 18:05, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Smeelgova- can you say more about why you see these as so relevant? Buddysystem 18:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Most of the statements here are inaccurate -- just read the references given. I propose the section be removed. WE&A and Werner Erhard were never found guilty of tax evasion and there is not a 'civil tax evasion'. FreedomByDesign 23:11, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I just read through both the explaination of Margolis schemes ( http://www.assetprotectionbook.com/reinvoicing.htm) and the Erhard v. IRS decision of 1995 from the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ( http://www.assetprotectionbook.com/erhard.htm)cited in this article to figure out some of the legal questions
As Werner Erhard and Associates has been established as a sole proprietorship, subsidiaries could not have existed, so I deleted that section from the box. Ftord1960 23:10, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
The caption for the photo of Erhard on Larry King Live incorrectly states that Erhard was on the show December 20. The linked transcript says that Heber Jentzsch was the guest. They played some clips of Erhard, and Erhard's brother Harry Rosenberg called in, but Erhard was not on the show on December 20, as the linked transcript shows. I have not found a reliable source for the actual date Erhard was on the show, but the following sources agree it was December 8, 1993 in an episode titled "Whatever Happened to Werner Erhard?":
I'm going to change the date in the caption and remove the transcript link. If someone wants to put the Dec 20 transcript somewhere else that's relevant or can find the Dec 8 transcript, great! Roccoconon 01:14, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, the images are under the "Taxation Issues" and "Abuse Allegations" sections in each respective article. I think this violates NPOV by implying that's why he was on Larry King. He was in fact on Larry King once he went into exhile. Hence, the episode title "Whatever Happened to Werner Erhard?". The Dec 20 episode focused on Scientology. It's a minor point, but I definitely think we should move the image to the post-1991 section or the Scientology section. Roccoconon 20:40, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I reworked the lead to say WHAT WEA was, and to state more clearly its relationships to EST and Landmark Forum. Landmark Forum is not the successor organization to WEA. I believe that in questions of corporate governance, it is appropriate to use Art Schreiber (corporate counsel) as a primary source, rather than various journalistic references (secondary sources) that may not get the technical details correct. Tertiary POV sources such as Rick Ross are not a Reliable Source on this subject. Wiki generally prefers secondary sources, but in the details of corporate structure, the primary source is likely to be more accurate and not of questionable POV. (I should come up with a better reference for this, and will dig around later today if I have a chance). Ratagonia 17:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I removed the reference to Margolis Schemes. WEA was not a suspected Margolis scheme (whereas, EST was) and therefore it is inappropriate to speculate that it is. (If you'd like to put this back in, find a NPOV source that states that WEA is a Margolis Scheme, please). Ratagonia 17:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
If you are unhappy with these edits, please Talk here, or work on the details, rather than reverting in toto. Please, and thank you. Ratagonia 17:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
== Successive organizational names ==
Name | From | To |
The Foundation for the Realization of Man | 1973 | July 1976 |
The est Foundation | July 1976 | February 1981 |
Werner Erhard and Associates | February 1981 | January 16, 1991 |
Breakthrough Technologies | January 16, 1991 | January 23, 1991 |
Transnational Education Corp. | January 23, 1991 | May 7, 1991 |
Landmark Education Corporation | May 7, 1991 | February 2003 |
Landmark Education, LLC | February 2003 | present [update] |
-- Pedant17 23:04, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
The link to the IRS V Erhard and the diagram is superfluous and not relevant to this article. I read through the whole thing expecting to find something significant, criminal, sinister, whatever. All this thing is is a very boring account of an appeal of a tax decision by the IRS. The appeal was denied on further review. OK. So???? What is the point of having this in the article? All I can conclude is that someone put it in to try to insinuate something about the subject of the article which if it is the case is in violation of WP:POV. Ebay3 17:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps a resourceful editor could write a highly sourced article from extremely reliable and relevant sources on the tax case? Hint, hint: This would also be an opportunity for a highly coveted DYK award for any editor who wanted to take on the horrific task of Google searching sources! Lsi john 20:33, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
In essence, Erhard sold his "body of knowledge" to an overseas holding and licensing corporation, to which est pays a maximal portion of its gross income in the form of pre-tax royalties. Now located in the Netherlands, this holding corporation pays 7 percent in Dutch taxes and then sends all its profits to the tax-exempt "Werner Erhard Foundation for est" in Switzerland, which owns the holding corporation outright. est, meanwhile, pays 30 percent in American taxes on its minimal post-royalty income. All the remaining profits go to the Werner Erhard Charitable Settlement, a tax-exempt trust on the Isle of Jersey, which owns est.
Image 1
Phase two took place on or about August 27, 1981, and was financed by three separate loans to WEA from Terla, B.V., in the total amount of $6,580,000. The proceeds of these loans were then used by WEA as follows: To est, a.e.c. for adjustments on assets purchased; to Welbehagen, B.V., for the Body of Knowledge; to Antigua Banking Ltd., as repayment of a loan and for the purchase of certain loans; to Associated Advisors for the purchase of the auxiliary sloop Sirona. On August 27, 1981, est, a.e.c. made three transfers to Welbehagen, B.V., in the total amount of $4,571,250. The following diagram reflects the money movements that were generated in phase two and the results achieved
Before we remove the "Self-published" tag from the Werner Erhard and Associates article, it would help to address the issue of quoting self-published material or explain why we should ignore the matter. -- Pedant17 02:55, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Before we replace the wording "marketing and selling the est training" with "offering the est training", it would help to discuss designing and delivering as well as marketing. -- Pedant17 02:55, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Before removing the section on income which read:
== Income == [[Image:Est1.png|thumb|right|250px|Image 1, United States Tax Court, diagram of Werner Erhard tax transactions.]] The diagram shows sample income-flows associated with Werner Erhard and Associates ("WEA"), as detailed for a United States federal tax-case hearing. Compare [[Harry Margolis | Margolis scheme]].
with the edit-summary "not accurate", it would help to point out the nature and scope of the alleged inaccuracy or inaccuracies with a view to helping to fix it/them. -- Pedant17 02:55, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Image:Werner Erhard Larry King Live.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 06:46, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Added {{ No more links}} to External links section. Cirt ( talk) 14:17, 29 April 2009 (UTC)