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The link to the 2006 US Census is broken.
Check it out, why do we need citations. Wikipedia:WikiProject Fact and Reference Check. Alun 12:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
As with most ethnic groups, there are two types of Welsh people: 'men' and 'women', each of whom make up 50%. Yet this article illustrates the Welsh with a picture of four men. I suggest the illustration needs a couple of women. If you had to choose two women to represent the Welsh, who would you choose? And which two men would you boot off - Lloyd George, Jones, Wallace or Everest? My personal choice would be Shirley Bassey and Catherine Zeta Jones, and I would boot off Jones and Everest for relative underachievement compared to the other two. I realize any selection will be totally arbitrary, but it's something that needs doing and it's an interesting thing to discuss. This list of Welsh people may be useful. Cop 633 21:40, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{ Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 17:09, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
4 women and 4 men like every other ethnic group article (like irish people article).
Yes catherine zeta jones and shirley bassey are good choices.
Ok fine, keep 4 old age welsh people and have 4 modern welsh people.
steve jones the rugby player or athlete do you mean btw?
4 modern welsh people could be: steve jones catherine zeta jones tom jones and either iona gruffud or rhysifans? (and it doesnt have to be split evenly on gender, none of the other articles do, we should only include people based on their famousness, we dont include all people with big ear lobes either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.192.228 ( talk • contribs)
Ah..I just made a collage of the pics on the article page. This was done for no real reason except that the pics of Welsh people in this article have been a bit untidy for quite some time. I just tidies them up. I didn't realise there was a discussion going on here. I was not trying to preempt anything. I called the image Image:pobol.png, when this discussion is finished maybe the a new image can replace the pobol.png image I created just to keep everything neat and tidy? All the best. Alun 18:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Just wondering if there's any truth to this. They seem to sometimes have a slightly darker complexion than people from the rest of the UK.-- h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 15:21, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
The Y-chromosomes of the modern Irish, characterized by the M343 mutation that defines the R1b Haplogroup (dominant, in variant degrees, from Iberia to Scandinavia), are closely related to those of Iberian population (Portugal and Spain), particularly those of the Basques, which has led some anthropologists to surmise that the Basques are a remnant of the pre-Indo-European population of western Europe, and that the pre-Celtic language (or languages) of Ireland may have been related to Euskara, the Basque tongue
Only Nazi's believe in such things as the Alpine, Nordic and Mediteranean "races" of Europe. " The Passing of the Great Race" was a racist book written by Madison Grant to promote his pseudoscientific eugenicist ideas, he wanted to murder everyone who he thought was genetically "inferior", which unsurprisingly meant anyone who he thought didn't look like him. Nice source. Y chromosomal distribution is clinal, all human groups on the Atlantic face of Europe have high proportions of R1b haplogroup. R1b is the dominant haplogroup in western Europe, with proportions decreasing as one moves east. Y chromosomes measure male-line descent, they do not measure ancestry. The quote from the Irish people article is suspect, the haplogroup R1b is characterised by the mutation M343 not the Y chromosomes of Irish men, otherwise the quote is saying that men from Ireland who do not have this mutation are not Irish people, which seems a bit odd. About 90% of Irish men belong to haplogroup R1b, which mean that one in ten do not. As for the question about Welsh people, it's simply irrelevant, John Beddoe claimed an index of " Negrescence", in which he measured the hair colour of people from different parts of Great Britain and Ireland. He found that people from western parts of the islands had somewhat darker hair than people from eastern and northern parts of the islands. People like Bedoe were racists and believed in racist ideas, Beddoe thought that African people were more stupid than "white" people, and that people from western parts of Great Britain and Ireland were closer to Africans due to their high "index of negresence". He believed these people belonged to a "celtic" race. Of course he was an "Anglo-Saxon" and therefore completely different and "intelligent". We should not confuse the racist ideas of previous generations with proper science. People in western parts of the islands may well have marginally darker hair and marginally more brown eyes than people in eastern parts, but you would hardly notice it, there are light and dark haired and blue and brown eyed people all of the islands. There is no great discontinuity and the differences that do exist are really quite small, they are not dramatic and one would not notice them unless one were to statistically analyse them. Alun ( talk) 05:06, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
If anyone can help, still needed is an article about the History of the Jews in Wales to complete the History of the Jews in Europe. Thanks, IZAK ( talk) 12:58, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
On the Cumbria page, it says "Saint Ninian, born about 360 AD, was almost certainly of Cumbrian origin and has strong associations with Ninekirks near Penrith. Not only did Ninian give his name to the place, he is believed to have had a hermitage in the caves of Isis Parlis overlooking the present church, which was originally dedicated to him. Earthworks in the area also give tantalising clues to an early monastery here. Ninian is often credited with the conversion of the Cymry to Christianity, despite its original introduction to the area by Romans." I assume that when it says "Cymry", the article is referring to speakers of the Cumbric language but if you search Wikipedia for Cymry it goes to the Welsh people page. Does anyone think it would be a good idea to disambiguate Cymry? The reasons that I haven't simply gone ahead and done it are (a) I don't know anything at all about the subject and (b) I'm aware that it could possibly be politically sensitive. ( Northernhenge ( talk) 13:40, 31 January 2008 (UTC))
An IP keeps adding Islam to the info box, but in Census 2001 Muslims represented less than 1% of the Welsh population. Far more people reported no religion. [1] Pondle ( talk) 21:53, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Just something I read in the Western Mail today, if anyone is interested: Our Celtic roots lie in Spain and Portugul. 195.27.12.230 ( talk) 07:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
OK, it happens is Wales. It happens elsewhere too, but how long do you think a section like this would last on English people for example? I'd give it about 30 seconds. This is just the usual anti-Welsh stuff, insinuating that domestic violence is a particular Welsh characteristic without giving any evidence that it is worse than elsewhere. 81.158.9.115 ( talk) 06:59, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Discussion below copied from
User talk:Drachenfyre via
User talk:Ghmyrtle
You made an edit to the article
Welsh People, changing the emphasis from the percentage of people in Wales who consider themselves to be Welsh, to the percentage of people born in Wales who consider themselves to be Welsh. The casual reader browsing the article would see that a massive majority of people in Wales (87%) and would be likely to see what they expect and move on (as in an article on French People, for example, they would expect to see a majority of people in France considering themselves to be French). Without seeing the 'small print' that says that a large minority of imigrants don't consider themselves to be Welsh at all. Incomers are an ongoing problem in Wales. The English colonists (the vast majority are from England) don't tend to integrate or learn the Welsh language and are obviously far more likely to be unionist, voting in favour of so called British issues rather than Welsh ones and further eroding the Welsh culture and way of life. Such issues need to be publicised. Would you mind having another look at your edit please? Thanks.
Daicaregos (
talk)
13:59, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
My point still stands, that the 67% of all people in Wales identifying as Welsh is a more useful, interesting, and statistically significant point than a higher proportion of those born in Wales identifying as Welsh.
The fact that a higher proportion of those born in Wales identify as Welsh than those living in Wales but not born there is not surprising, not interesting, and almost trivial - the same would apply in any area of the world where there is both an indigenous population and an immigrant population.
I have to agree that the statistics given, a higher proportion of people born in Wales consider themselves Welsh than those born outside Wales is indeed of great interest. In fact, if there was a similar survey for all the countries of the UK (is there?) it would be even more interesting. It could even explain the political make up of the country. Skipper 360 ( talk) 21:34, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I believe that the Labour Force Servays are the only servays asking the question in Wales. None are asking in England as far as I know. I understand the point about holiday homes on Mon, I was the one that wrote that into this and other articals, lol. ♦Drachenfyre♦· Talk 21:42, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Look, what I disagree with is the statement that you have to be born in Wales to be Welsh. Its about asking the question of your ethnic identity, which this 01 Labour Force servay asks. None other have, and we do not know who in England do consider themselves part of the Welsh ethnic group. What is interesting here is of those born in Wales, 87% consider themselves Welsh. We do not know because it hasnt been asked, how many in England consider themselves Welsh. The question is who considers themselves Welsh, and where were they born, in England, or in Wales, or in Scotland. ♦Drachenfyre♦· Talk 21:46, 26 August 2008 (UTC) artical is about Welsh people, that is, the ethinic group and nation of those who consider themselves Welsh. From this perspective, even for an international reader, the primary percentage is the 87% of those born in Wales considering themselves as Welsh. The second figure is just that, secondary. If this was an artical about the Demography of Wales, then prehaps I would agree. The Demography of Wales page does need attention by the way, to bring it up to the Demography of Scotland, which is different from the Scottish people page. Should the info on the 30 percent of those not born in Wales be included? Yes, but that is secondary and should be treated as secondary info. And explained why there is such a high percentage of non-Welsh born residents residing in Wales. This would be a secondary paragraph, though in the opening paragraph I can see it as a secondary portion of the sentence or a second qualifying sentence ♦Drachenfyre♦· Talk 21:47, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I think we need to agree some principles/facts/ concepts before we get into the words. My suggestions:
Whatever we do the survey results need to be there, what is in the lede and what is elsewhere and what words are put around it are the issues. -- Snowded TALK 22:12, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree with the rest of your summary. Skipper 360 ( talk) 22:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
In my view the only people who can unambiguously be described as "Welsh people" are people who were born in Wales, of Welsh descent, who live in Wales, and who self-identify as Welsh. Some people born in Wales of Welsh descent who live in Wales might self-identify as British, but according to some definitions would still be "Welsh people". Others born in Wales and living in Wales but of (say) English descent might self-identify as English. Others born elsewhere and living elsewhere (say, Patagonia) but of Welsh descent might self-identify as Welsh. Others born in (say) England but living in Wales and of Welsh descent might self-identify as English. Or British. Or Welsh. Etc etc etc. - there are a huge number of possibilities. In my view the article "Welsh people" needs to address the full range of possibilities covered by that title, and definitely not state that the only topic the article covers is those who self-identify as (or, even worse, are deemed to be "ethnically") Welsh. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 22:45, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflict)"In my view the article "Welsh people" needs to address the full range of possibilities covered by that title, and definitely not state that the only topic the article covers is those who self-identify as (or, even worse, are deemed to be "ethnically") Welsh." What you are speaking about here is the demography of Wales, not about the Welsh ethnic group... those that self-identify as Welsh. Should it be mentioned, discussed in a topic, yes. But not to distract here from the main focus, the Welsh people. ♦Drachenfyre♦· Talk 22:54, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
ye gods! Kk, gotta go. Throwing my hands up. I am bored to tears with the acromony here, as elsewhere ♦Drachenfyre♦· Talk 23:08, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Do whatever you want to the artical, I am quiting the artical leaving it to your hands. ♦Drachenfyre♦· Talk 23:09, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) No acrimony that I can see (go and look at the British Isles task force, or Irish naming if you want to see that). Its an interesting discussion. No one has reverted you Drachenfyre, but brought the discussion here. Normally a sign of respect. Skipper 360 you could play for the Irish Rugby team with that one grandparent, and get an Irish passport so I think your relatives are wrong!
The issue here is the complicated nature of the British, with the rise of nationalism and national identity (not the same thing) it is not going to be easy for someone who did not grow up amongst the complications to understand it, but it is our job as Wikipedia editors to try and make that easy. Now in the case of Wales the vast bulk of the population comes from mass immigration during the industrial revolution (a lot of that from Cornwell which is also Welsh in a sense) but also form outside. I have a lot of data on that, but its at home so I can't do much with it now. That includes English, West Indian, Italian, Irish etc. etc. This is less the case for Scotland. We also have the difference between north-west/agricultural/nationalist and south=east/industrial/socialist (Something Emyr Humphries brought out so well in his novels). I was born into the south, raised in the north but have lived outside of Wales for most of my post University life, but I am Welsh. My children will make that choice for themselves, its not pre-determined.
I think the figures that we quote need to be set in context so the figures mean something. I can draft something next week when I am home. For the moment the figures are the figures and can be easily misinterpreted or misunderstood. I suggest a continued open discussion about what needs to be said. -- Snowded TALK 05:29, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
On a different note, looking at the info box I see one of the notable Welshmen is Alfred Russell Wallace. On checking his article I see he is referred to as an Englishman. Why would there be such a discrepancy between the two articles? Skipper 360 ( talk) 18:56, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
I have brought this question on his nationality to his article page to see what they think over there, as I don't think wiki should be giving two different nationalitys on two articles. I do think they should be in sync with one another, whether that's as a Welshman or Englishman. Skipper 360 ( talk) 13:00, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Wallace is indeed a complicated case. It is clear from his autobiography that neither he nor his parents thought of themselves as Welsh (he talks about Welsh people he knew but always refers to himself as English) and most of his biographers have followed this. On the other hand he seems to have been claimed by modern Welsh nationalists and he is on the well known list of 100 Welsh heros. I might have been more impressed by that fact if they had bothered to get the spelling of his name correct. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 00:31, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Oh dear. The point about "nationality" is that there is not one single clear unambiguous definition of the term which is accepted by all. One of the implications of that statement is that it is perfectly easy and normal for one person to have more than one nationality, using different definitions. For example, someone born in Wales but of English parents can be both Welsh (based on place of birth) and English (based on, if they wish, self-identification). There is nothing unusual or contradictory about that at all. Yes, Cliff Richard is both English (self-identification) and Indian (place of birth). Wallace was both Welsh (by place of birth - setting aside the whole "was Monmouthshire in Wales?" issue for another day) and English (by self-identification). The problem in WP is with those editors who will only accept and use their own definition. But personally I really don't care if Wallace is shown in the infobox or not. What I do care about is someone reverting the plain and simple truth that, now, in Wales, the term "Welsh people" can mean (and does mean to the Welsh Assembly Government), people who live in Wales, regardless of where they were born or whether they "identify as Welsh". So I will put that definition back in again. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 22:26, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
cheers, Alun ( talk) 07:13, 31 August 2008 (UTC)Ideologies of ethnicity also base collective identity on shared descent, usually relating to a common regional or national origin. Language, dress, occupational specialization, and religion, among other things, may also be part of an ethnic identity. Since ethnic groups are always defined vis-a-vis other ethnic groups, the mere fact of difference is what is more often important than anything else. Thus the specific content of ethnic identities may shift wildly with time, and what may really be at stake is not any profound differences in culture or world view, but how a particular ethnic group membership allows access to scarce resources or how it can be used by leaders to further their political goals. Monaghan and Just (2000) Social and Cultural Anthropology: A very short introduction. pp 93-94. ISBN 0-19-285346-5
Thank you Alun for your comment, however if responding to my above comment I think it is misplaced. I understand the complexities of identity and ethnicity, and am the origionating author of the 01 Census and Servay sections, including citing sources. However, What I was responding to above was specifically the assertion that the Welsh Assembly Government (WAG) can be the authoritive source on who is Welsh. It is simply not a devolved matter, and defining nationality and/or ethnicity currently remains the authority of the UK Government.
Additionally, maintaining an Office of National Statistics is also not a devolved matter, meaning that any internal numbers that the Assembly Government may produce are "unofficial" and therefor unauthoritive. And only in the 01 Labour Force servay was the question "What is your ethnic identity" asked, with specific check boxes. And, coming from this source, from the UK Office of National Statistics, did the additional summeration that place of birth is the single most contributing factor to ethnic identity in Wales, Scotland, and England. This was not my point of view, but the sumation of a recognized qualifying source.
The point I was trying to make was that it is within the Welsh Assembly Governments authority to define who qualifies for services offered by the Welsh Assembly, and only in this context would they be able to define that those "living in Wales" are in fact Welsh in this context, regardless as to what they identify as. They are Welsh only in the context of qualifying for services offered by the Welsh Assembly. When I wrote the sections on the 01 Census and the 01 Labour Force Servay, I went to the Welsh Assembly to try and ascertain if they had a definitive answer on who is Welsh for these section. ♦Drachenfyre♦· Talk 09:35, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Its official, the world is going mad. Surely someone who qualifys for Welsh services is called a resident of Wales, not welsh. If I moved to London I would qualify for all the services in that city, would it make me a Londoner. I think sometimes commonsense has to take precedent over a couple of sources, or is it just one? If it doesn't in this case then the world is not going mad, it's already there. Skipper 360 ( talk) 11:53, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
As Daicaregos asks, could you please point out the page and paragraph that tell's us all people living in Wales are Welsh. Skipper 360 ( talk) 14:09, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Although not a technical legal definition, the Census allows for people to select Welsh as their ethnicity. The Welsh ethnicity has been defined by scientists time and time again. I would say that if Alfed Russel Wallace does not have any Welsh ancestry then he is not of Welsh ethnicity. It is another debate altogether however as to whether or no there is such a thing as a Welsh nationality.
I also took the liberty of creating a gallery of images of Welsh people at the commons commons:Welsh people, I've linked to this in the article, the gallery could probably do with a bit of work, I just chucked a few images in there that were already in the commons:category:People of Wales. Cheers, Alun ( talk) 05:52, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
The history section seems to give undue weight to the archeological theories on when Celtic language arrived (things like "as early as the early neolithic or even earlier" and "Goidelic and Brythonic languages develop[ed] indigenously"), while giving no space at all to the view from linguistics that such things are extremely unlikely based on linguistic evidence, - a rather bizarre state of affairs considering the fact that it is a linguistic question that is being asked in the first place! After less than five minutes I've found at least one reconstruction of a Proto-Celtic lexicon that includes reconstructions of roots for "iron" and "horse" [3], which obviously completely destroys the "neolithic or earlier" theory if true. Obviously that itself can't be used in the article as it would constitute synthesis, but I know for a fact that the mainstream view in historical linguistics is that not even Proto-Indo-European (let alone Proto-Celtic) can be reconstructed as far back as "neolithic or earlier". It is complete POV to only represent one side of the linguistic debate, and especially absurd when the side being ignored are the linguists themselves! -- 81.158.147.16 ( talk) 06:22, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
⬅ Well, you might want to look at { http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry#Alternative_account_notification this policy] and seek to comply with it. Yes it was clear from the the context, but you will generate suspicion if you use multiple IPs without making the links clear. This is especially true of any page to do with Celts, The British Isles, Ireland etc which are bedeviled with sock puppets. I can't think of any valid reason not to use a registered ID by the way. OK its not a requirement for editing but why? -- Snowded TALK 18:37, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
the religion section here seems to be confusing itself with the article Demography_of_Wales by describing the religion of people who are not ethnically Welsh. As the disclaimer at the top of the article states, this is the article about the ethnic group and nation, not all of the people in the actual country of Wales. -- 86.163.123.30 ( talk) 18:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
The link to the 2006 US Census is broken.
Check it out, why do we need citations. Wikipedia:WikiProject Fact and Reference Check. Alun 12:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
As with most ethnic groups, there are two types of Welsh people: 'men' and 'women', each of whom make up 50%. Yet this article illustrates the Welsh with a picture of four men. I suggest the illustration needs a couple of women. If you had to choose two women to represent the Welsh, who would you choose? And which two men would you boot off - Lloyd George, Jones, Wallace or Everest? My personal choice would be Shirley Bassey and Catherine Zeta Jones, and I would boot off Jones and Everest for relative underachievement compared to the other two. I realize any selection will be totally arbitrary, but it's something that needs doing and it's an interesting thing to discuss. This list of Welsh people may be useful. Cop 633 21:40, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{ Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 17:09, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
4 women and 4 men like every other ethnic group article (like irish people article).
Yes catherine zeta jones and shirley bassey are good choices.
Ok fine, keep 4 old age welsh people and have 4 modern welsh people.
steve jones the rugby player or athlete do you mean btw?
4 modern welsh people could be: steve jones catherine zeta jones tom jones and either iona gruffud or rhysifans? (and it doesnt have to be split evenly on gender, none of the other articles do, we should only include people based on their famousness, we dont include all people with big ear lobes either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.192.228 ( talk • contribs)
Ah..I just made a collage of the pics on the article page. This was done for no real reason except that the pics of Welsh people in this article have been a bit untidy for quite some time. I just tidies them up. I didn't realise there was a discussion going on here. I was not trying to preempt anything. I called the image Image:pobol.png, when this discussion is finished maybe the a new image can replace the pobol.png image I created just to keep everything neat and tidy? All the best. Alun 18:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Just wondering if there's any truth to this. They seem to sometimes have a slightly darker complexion than people from the rest of the UK.-- h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 15:21, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
The Y-chromosomes of the modern Irish, characterized by the M343 mutation that defines the R1b Haplogroup (dominant, in variant degrees, from Iberia to Scandinavia), are closely related to those of Iberian population (Portugal and Spain), particularly those of the Basques, which has led some anthropologists to surmise that the Basques are a remnant of the pre-Indo-European population of western Europe, and that the pre-Celtic language (or languages) of Ireland may have been related to Euskara, the Basque tongue
Only Nazi's believe in such things as the Alpine, Nordic and Mediteranean "races" of Europe. " The Passing of the Great Race" was a racist book written by Madison Grant to promote his pseudoscientific eugenicist ideas, he wanted to murder everyone who he thought was genetically "inferior", which unsurprisingly meant anyone who he thought didn't look like him. Nice source. Y chromosomal distribution is clinal, all human groups on the Atlantic face of Europe have high proportions of R1b haplogroup. R1b is the dominant haplogroup in western Europe, with proportions decreasing as one moves east. Y chromosomes measure male-line descent, they do not measure ancestry. The quote from the Irish people article is suspect, the haplogroup R1b is characterised by the mutation M343 not the Y chromosomes of Irish men, otherwise the quote is saying that men from Ireland who do not have this mutation are not Irish people, which seems a bit odd. About 90% of Irish men belong to haplogroup R1b, which mean that one in ten do not. As for the question about Welsh people, it's simply irrelevant, John Beddoe claimed an index of " Negrescence", in which he measured the hair colour of people from different parts of Great Britain and Ireland. He found that people from western parts of the islands had somewhat darker hair than people from eastern and northern parts of the islands. People like Bedoe were racists and believed in racist ideas, Beddoe thought that African people were more stupid than "white" people, and that people from western parts of Great Britain and Ireland were closer to Africans due to their high "index of negresence". He believed these people belonged to a "celtic" race. Of course he was an "Anglo-Saxon" and therefore completely different and "intelligent". We should not confuse the racist ideas of previous generations with proper science. People in western parts of the islands may well have marginally darker hair and marginally more brown eyes than people in eastern parts, but you would hardly notice it, there are light and dark haired and blue and brown eyed people all of the islands. There is no great discontinuity and the differences that do exist are really quite small, they are not dramatic and one would not notice them unless one were to statistically analyse them. Alun ( talk) 05:06, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
If anyone can help, still needed is an article about the History of the Jews in Wales to complete the History of the Jews in Europe. Thanks, IZAK ( talk) 12:58, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
On the Cumbria page, it says "Saint Ninian, born about 360 AD, was almost certainly of Cumbrian origin and has strong associations with Ninekirks near Penrith. Not only did Ninian give his name to the place, he is believed to have had a hermitage in the caves of Isis Parlis overlooking the present church, which was originally dedicated to him. Earthworks in the area also give tantalising clues to an early monastery here. Ninian is often credited with the conversion of the Cymry to Christianity, despite its original introduction to the area by Romans." I assume that when it says "Cymry", the article is referring to speakers of the Cumbric language but if you search Wikipedia for Cymry it goes to the Welsh people page. Does anyone think it would be a good idea to disambiguate Cymry? The reasons that I haven't simply gone ahead and done it are (a) I don't know anything at all about the subject and (b) I'm aware that it could possibly be politically sensitive. ( Northernhenge ( talk) 13:40, 31 January 2008 (UTC))
An IP keeps adding Islam to the info box, but in Census 2001 Muslims represented less than 1% of the Welsh population. Far more people reported no religion. [1] Pondle ( talk) 21:53, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Just something I read in the Western Mail today, if anyone is interested: Our Celtic roots lie in Spain and Portugul. 195.27.12.230 ( talk) 07:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
OK, it happens is Wales. It happens elsewhere too, but how long do you think a section like this would last on English people for example? I'd give it about 30 seconds. This is just the usual anti-Welsh stuff, insinuating that domestic violence is a particular Welsh characteristic without giving any evidence that it is worse than elsewhere. 81.158.9.115 ( talk) 06:59, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Discussion below copied from
User talk:Drachenfyre via
User talk:Ghmyrtle
You made an edit to the article
Welsh People, changing the emphasis from the percentage of people in Wales who consider themselves to be Welsh, to the percentage of people born in Wales who consider themselves to be Welsh. The casual reader browsing the article would see that a massive majority of people in Wales (87%) and would be likely to see what they expect and move on (as in an article on French People, for example, they would expect to see a majority of people in France considering themselves to be French). Without seeing the 'small print' that says that a large minority of imigrants don't consider themselves to be Welsh at all. Incomers are an ongoing problem in Wales. The English colonists (the vast majority are from England) don't tend to integrate or learn the Welsh language and are obviously far more likely to be unionist, voting in favour of so called British issues rather than Welsh ones and further eroding the Welsh culture and way of life. Such issues need to be publicised. Would you mind having another look at your edit please? Thanks.
Daicaregos (
talk)
13:59, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
My point still stands, that the 67% of all people in Wales identifying as Welsh is a more useful, interesting, and statistically significant point than a higher proportion of those born in Wales identifying as Welsh.
The fact that a higher proportion of those born in Wales identify as Welsh than those living in Wales but not born there is not surprising, not interesting, and almost trivial - the same would apply in any area of the world where there is both an indigenous population and an immigrant population.
I have to agree that the statistics given, a higher proportion of people born in Wales consider themselves Welsh than those born outside Wales is indeed of great interest. In fact, if there was a similar survey for all the countries of the UK (is there?) it would be even more interesting. It could even explain the political make up of the country. Skipper 360 ( talk) 21:34, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I believe that the Labour Force Servays are the only servays asking the question in Wales. None are asking in England as far as I know. I understand the point about holiday homes on Mon, I was the one that wrote that into this and other articals, lol. ♦Drachenfyre♦· Talk 21:42, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Look, what I disagree with is the statement that you have to be born in Wales to be Welsh. Its about asking the question of your ethnic identity, which this 01 Labour Force servay asks. None other have, and we do not know who in England do consider themselves part of the Welsh ethnic group. What is interesting here is of those born in Wales, 87% consider themselves Welsh. We do not know because it hasnt been asked, how many in England consider themselves Welsh. The question is who considers themselves Welsh, and where were they born, in England, or in Wales, or in Scotland. ♦Drachenfyre♦· Talk 21:46, 26 August 2008 (UTC) artical is about Welsh people, that is, the ethinic group and nation of those who consider themselves Welsh. From this perspective, even for an international reader, the primary percentage is the 87% of those born in Wales considering themselves as Welsh. The second figure is just that, secondary. If this was an artical about the Demography of Wales, then prehaps I would agree. The Demography of Wales page does need attention by the way, to bring it up to the Demography of Scotland, which is different from the Scottish people page. Should the info on the 30 percent of those not born in Wales be included? Yes, but that is secondary and should be treated as secondary info. And explained why there is such a high percentage of non-Welsh born residents residing in Wales. This would be a secondary paragraph, though in the opening paragraph I can see it as a secondary portion of the sentence or a second qualifying sentence ♦Drachenfyre♦· Talk 21:47, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I think we need to agree some principles/facts/ concepts before we get into the words. My suggestions:
Whatever we do the survey results need to be there, what is in the lede and what is elsewhere and what words are put around it are the issues. -- Snowded TALK 22:12, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree with the rest of your summary. Skipper 360 ( talk) 22:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
In my view the only people who can unambiguously be described as "Welsh people" are people who were born in Wales, of Welsh descent, who live in Wales, and who self-identify as Welsh. Some people born in Wales of Welsh descent who live in Wales might self-identify as British, but according to some definitions would still be "Welsh people". Others born in Wales and living in Wales but of (say) English descent might self-identify as English. Others born elsewhere and living elsewhere (say, Patagonia) but of Welsh descent might self-identify as Welsh. Others born in (say) England but living in Wales and of Welsh descent might self-identify as English. Or British. Or Welsh. Etc etc etc. - there are a huge number of possibilities. In my view the article "Welsh people" needs to address the full range of possibilities covered by that title, and definitely not state that the only topic the article covers is those who self-identify as (or, even worse, are deemed to be "ethnically") Welsh. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 22:45, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflict)"In my view the article "Welsh people" needs to address the full range of possibilities covered by that title, and definitely not state that the only topic the article covers is those who self-identify as (or, even worse, are deemed to be "ethnically") Welsh." What you are speaking about here is the demography of Wales, not about the Welsh ethnic group... those that self-identify as Welsh. Should it be mentioned, discussed in a topic, yes. But not to distract here from the main focus, the Welsh people. ♦Drachenfyre♦· Talk 22:54, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
ye gods! Kk, gotta go. Throwing my hands up. I am bored to tears with the acromony here, as elsewhere ♦Drachenfyre♦· Talk 23:08, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Do whatever you want to the artical, I am quiting the artical leaving it to your hands. ♦Drachenfyre♦· Talk 23:09, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) No acrimony that I can see (go and look at the British Isles task force, or Irish naming if you want to see that). Its an interesting discussion. No one has reverted you Drachenfyre, but brought the discussion here. Normally a sign of respect. Skipper 360 you could play for the Irish Rugby team with that one grandparent, and get an Irish passport so I think your relatives are wrong!
The issue here is the complicated nature of the British, with the rise of nationalism and national identity (not the same thing) it is not going to be easy for someone who did not grow up amongst the complications to understand it, but it is our job as Wikipedia editors to try and make that easy. Now in the case of Wales the vast bulk of the population comes from mass immigration during the industrial revolution (a lot of that from Cornwell which is also Welsh in a sense) but also form outside. I have a lot of data on that, but its at home so I can't do much with it now. That includes English, West Indian, Italian, Irish etc. etc. This is less the case for Scotland. We also have the difference between north-west/agricultural/nationalist and south=east/industrial/socialist (Something Emyr Humphries brought out so well in his novels). I was born into the south, raised in the north but have lived outside of Wales for most of my post University life, but I am Welsh. My children will make that choice for themselves, its not pre-determined.
I think the figures that we quote need to be set in context so the figures mean something. I can draft something next week when I am home. For the moment the figures are the figures and can be easily misinterpreted or misunderstood. I suggest a continued open discussion about what needs to be said. -- Snowded TALK 05:29, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
On a different note, looking at the info box I see one of the notable Welshmen is Alfred Russell Wallace. On checking his article I see he is referred to as an Englishman. Why would there be such a discrepancy between the two articles? Skipper 360 ( talk) 18:56, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
I have brought this question on his nationality to his article page to see what they think over there, as I don't think wiki should be giving two different nationalitys on two articles. I do think they should be in sync with one another, whether that's as a Welshman or Englishman. Skipper 360 ( talk) 13:00, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Wallace is indeed a complicated case. It is clear from his autobiography that neither he nor his parents thought of themselves as Welsh (he talks about Welsh people he knew but always refers to himself as English) and most of his biographers have followed this. On the other hand he seems to have been claimed by modern Welsh nationalists and he is on the well known list of 100 Welsh heros. I might have been more impressed by that fact if they had bothered to get the spelling of his name correct. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 00:31, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Oh dear. The point about "nationality" is that there is not one single clear unambiguous definition of the term which is accepted by all. One of the implications of that statement is that it is perfectly easy and normal for one person to have more than one nationality, using different definitions. For example, someone born in Wales but of English parents can be both Welsh (based on place of birth) and English (based on, if they wish, self-identification). There is nothing unusual or contradictory about that at all. Yes, Cliff Richard is both English (self-identification) and Indian (place of birth). Wallace was both Welsh (by place of birth - setting aside the whole "was Monmouthshire in Wales?" issue for another day) and English (by self-identification). The problem in WP is with those editors who will only accept and use their own definition. But personally I really don't care if Wallace is shown in the infobox or not. What I do care about is someone reverting the plain and simple truth that, now, in Wales, the term "Welsh people" can mean (and does mean to the Welsh Assembly Government), people who live in Wales, regardless of where they were born or whether they "identify as Welsh". So I will put that definition back in again. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 22:26, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
cheers, Alun ( talk) 07:13, 31 August 2008 (UTC)Ideologies of ethnicity also base collective identity on shared descent, usually relating to a common regional or national origin. Language, dress, occupational specialization, and religion, among other things, may also be part of an ethnic identity. Since ethnic groups are always defined vis-a-vis other ethnic groups, the mere fact of difference is what is more often important than anything else. Thus the specific content of ethnic identities may shift wildly with time, and what may really be at stake is not any profound differences in culture or world view, but how a particular ethnic group membership allows access to scarce resources or how it can be used by leaders to further their political goals. Monaghan and Just (2000) Social and Cultural Anthropology: A very short introduction. pp 93-94. ISBN 0-19-285346-5
Thank you Alun for your comment, however if responding to my above comment I think it is misplaced. I understand the complexities of identity and ethnicity, and am the origionating author of the 01 Census and Servay sections, including citing sources. However, What I was responding to above was specifically the assertion that the Welsh Assembly Government (WAG) can be the authoritive source on who is Welsh. It is simply not a devolved matter, and defining nationality and/or ethnicity currently remains the authority of the UK Government.
Additionally, maintaining an Office of National Statistics is also not a devolved matter, meaning that any internal numbers that the Assembly Government may produce are "unofficial" and therefor unauthoritive. And only in the 01 Labour Force servay was the question "What is your ethnic identity" asked, with specific check boxes. And, coming from this source, from the UK Office of National Statistics, did the additional summeration that place of birth is the single most contributing factor to ethnic identity in Wales, Scotland, and England. This was not my point of view, but the sumation of a recognized qualifying source.
The point I was trying to make was that it is within the Welsh Assembly Governments authority to define who qualifies for services offered by the Welsh Assembly, and only in this context would they be able to define that those "living in Wales" are in fact Welsh in this context, regardless as to what they identify as. They are Welsh only in the context of qualifying for services offered by the Welsh Assembly. When I wrote the sections on the 01 Census and the 01 Labour Force Servay, I went to the Welsh Assembly to try and ascertain if they had a definitive answer on who is Welsh for these section. ♦Drachenfyre♦· Talk 09:35, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Its official, the world is going mad. Surely someone who qualifys for Welsh services is called a resident of Wales, not welsh. If I moved to London I would qualify for all the services in that city, would it make me a Londoner. I think sometimes commonsense has to take precedent over a couple of sources, or is it just one? If it doesn't in this case then the world is not going mad, it's already there. Skipper 360 ( talk) 11:53, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
As Daicaregos asks, could you please point out the page and paragraph that tell's us all people living in Wales are Welsh. Skipper 360 ( talk) 14:09, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Although not a technical legal definition, the Census allows for people to select Welsh as their ethnicity. The Welsh ethnicity has been defined by scientists time and time again. I would say that if Alfed Russel Wallace does not have any Welsh ancestry then he is not of Welsh ethnicity. It is another debate altogether however as to whether or no there is such a thing as a Welsh nationality.
I also took the liberty of creating a gallery of images of Welsh people at the commons commons:Welsh people, I've linked to this in the article, the gallery could probably do with a bit of work, I just chucked a few images in there that were already in the commons:category:People of Wales. Cheers, Alun ( talk) 05:52, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
The history section seems to give undue weight to the archeological theories on when Celtic language arrived (things like "as early as the early neolithic or even earlier" and "Goidelic and Brythonic languages develop[ed] indigenously"), while giving no space at all to the view from linguistics that such things are extremely unlikely based on linguistic evidence, - a rather bizarre state of affairs considering the fact that it is a linguistic question that is being asked in the first place! After less than five minutes I've found at least one reconstruction of a Proto-Celtic lexicon that includes reconstructions of roots for "iron" and "horse" [3], which obviously completely destroys the "neolithic or earlier" theory if true. Obviously that itself can't be used in the article as it would constitute synthesis, but I know for a fact that the mainstream view in historical linguistics is that not even Proto-Indo-European (let alone Proto-Celtic) can be reconstructed as far back as "neolithic or earlier". It is complete POV to only represent one side of the linguistic debate, and especially absurd when the side being ignored are the linguists themselves! -- 81.158.147.16 ( talk) 06:22, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
⬅ Well, you might want to look at { http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry#Alternative_account_notification this policy] and seek to comply with it. Yes it was clear from the the context, but you will generate suspicion if you use multiple IPs without making the links clear. This is especially true of any page to do with Celts, The British Isles, Ireland etc which are bedeviled with sock puppets. I can't think of any valid reason not to use a registered ID by the way. OK its not a requirement for editing but why? -- Snowded TALK 18:37, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
the religion section here seems to be confusing itself with the article Demography_of_Wales by describing the religion of people who are not ethnically Welsh. As the disclaimer at the top of the article states, this is the article about the ethnic group and nation, not all of the people in the actual country of Wales. -- 86.163.123.30 ( talk) 18:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC)