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A Political Science professor once told me that the Constitution of the "Weimar Republic" was one of the most beautiful legal documents he'd ever read. Is there an English translation of it available somewhere? Kingturtle 04:28, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
The problem with the constitution was that it was drawn up in the heady days after WWI, where politicians were almost as niave as 1960s hippies. They expected that in the era of democracy everyone would work together in unity and respect rather than be ruled by corrupt tyrants and despostic monarchs. So they failed to provide anything to cover the worst case senario should the electorate elect imbeciles, should politicians become corrupt, or in the case of Hindenburg, should an otherwise honourable man go senile. Many of the constitutions, eg, the Constitution of the Irish Free State, contained flaws caused by niave trust that things would go right, eg allowing for such things as popular referenda on laws which soon went wrong when it turned out that they weren't used by well-briefed voters but by cynical oppositions who convinced voters not by detailed discussions of the law but simplistic political slogans, etc. The Irish and Austrian constitutions both ended up being toughened up and having their more niave clauses dumped. In Weimar, the system contained a fatal flaw: a reich chancellor who was answerable both to the Reichstag and the Reich president. Once the Reichstag disintergrated into warring factions governments relied more and more on the president to enable them to govern through emergency decrees. Added to that, the honourable Hindenburg was never the sharpest penny on the block and by the early 1930s was mentally unfit for the post, showing clear signs of senility. So he could be manipulated. The final and most crazy flaw of all was that if the president died the Reich Chancellor became president. So when Hindenburg died, all the president's immense powers, the powers intended to protect the Weimar Republic, fell into the hands of its destroyer, the Reich Chancellor, Adolf Hitler.
The lesson from Weimar was simple: never less high falutin' dreams of utopia shape your constitution drafting. Be idealistic by all means, but also be realistic, and create sufficient checks and powers to stop parliament becoming too weak or the executive becoming too strong. In simple, don't let democracy's survival depend on the powers and skills of one individual.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
23:57, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I think the problem with the Weimar constitution was not that it was fatally flawed, but that if things went wrong, it contained too many flaws that could make the problems worse, and not enough strengths to help solve problems. In a different era it might have worked. But once it hit problems its basic design flaws were used against it. It was a brave attempt at democracy, but shows the problems that occur where niavety overrules restraint and cop-on in drafting a constitution. It was made for a perfect Utopia. Unfortunately for it Germany in the 1920s and certainly in the early 1930s was as far from Utopia as it was possible to be. That was to be its ultimate tragedy.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
01:43, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
There's another article at German Revolution that doesn't seem to be linked to from this one. The two have a lot of shared content, but it doesn't actually seem to overlap. Any thoughts on whether/to what extent they should be synchronized? -- Cantara 19:17, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
I have separated the sessions of the 23 March and recorded the events in order . I hope this clears up the difficulty . EffK 11:29, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, Jon, for removing ( [1]) the (even for EffK's standards over-the-top) slander I had overlooked and for cleaning these sections up better than I would have done it. As for Weimar dead and buried, please take Hindenburg's death into account as well, as this was the day that made Hitler's rule final and no longer assaiable by legal means. Str1977 23:37, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Dear Jon, of course my reference to Hindenburg was only the legal measure by which Hitler could be stopped. He could have deposed him at any time, which would have invalidated the Enabling Act as well, if I remember correctly. This all would have been based on the Reichswehr who would have followed Hindenburg. In fact, there was tension in the air in 1934 between conservatives (Papen et al.) and the Reichswehr on one hand and the SA under Röhm on the other hand. The SA wanted to replace the Reichswehr with itself as a militia. There were some secret talks about ending the Hitler government just as it had begun, by intrigue. Hitler however thwarted these dealings by siding with the Reichswehr and reducing the SA to a political entity and eventually decaptitating his paramilitaries. He did this because he knew that he was doomed if he sided with the SA and because the SA was not what he needed for the upcoming war. The end of Röhm thwarted conservative conspiracies, it earned Hitler the thanks of the military and also some respect from the dying Hindenburg. So I agree with you. Had Hitler not purged the SA before Hindenburg's death, a civil war might have been the result. I don't know with whom Hitler would have sided but in any case he would have come out damaged. Str1977 09:16, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
As far as I am concerned , Str has no wikipedia right to massage a source . Perhaps after adjudication ,on discussions which could conclusively source the disproof of the source(in this case Klemens von klemperer ) then perhaps the entire source placed /next to/prior/as logically accepted as preceding at inclusion of source's name/reference , could disappear .
What I will not accept is cavalier change of sourced reference, which the particular user has full knowledge of, the hand in being a direct quote .
If this editor Str1977 wished to disprove the source by disproving the book, its author etc. he could remove it . I do not accept that he has the right to massage the words of that source to his interpretation in the manner that he has done .
I should like to be able to trust users on WP , and be able to turn my back without particularly this user emasculating import against accepted practice referred to above . I am appalled , more by the action than by the equally unacceptable manner in which the editor followed his unaccptable change with a subsequent edit that seems to have had no action other that to tone down the editing description he gave to the previous action.
I am not able due to these type of actions to myself retain much confidence in the contributions by this editor , and I suggest that others carefully check facts and assertions most scrupulously . certainly opinions expressed by him should not override careful presentation of source . EffK 11:20, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
EffK,
Good day, Mr Goodfaith, 11:53, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Confusion reigns within the Hitler era pages . This editor has possibly stopped removing the sourced assertion that kaas is along with papen the most important facilitator for Hitler's rise to power. he has not entirely stopped removing links to these factors of Kaas from the civil of the ecclesiastical pages, but he seems to begin to allow more balance. I decry that this should have taken so long for me to achieve, and claim that here there is still in-admissable gap in the relevant historical facts , and denial of linkage , and bad faith accusation that all this is my conspiracy . As it applies to this article as much as Nazi Germany I bring this talk here under 'Industrialists' following .
I note that Consolidation of Power on Nazi Germany contains nil reference to the Industrialists . Indeed this subject is hard to find anywhere in the German history pages, very hard . Str1977 rejects this below as off topic to Enabling Act (consequences) so I bring it here where it should form inform us as to out-come. .This is brought in by John Toland as immediate consequence of Hitler's rigged success .The subject of the magnates bank-rolling Hitler prior to the rigged success is completely absent here on Weimar Republic, and so is their link to his supposed economic miracle, concerning which this sheds light.
I emphasize that the Industrialists during the last winter of Weimar, commoded Hitler, along with others , but were the financial equivalent of the Enabling Act ie vital rigging in the sail to dictatorial power .
With a link to Rhenish-Westphalian Industrial Magnates. Why this blind-spot ? Why are we behaving as if the Nuremburg Trials , and their American lessor trials concerning Trading with The Enemy , never happened . There is effective absence of the truth , as sourceable, throughout Wikipedia Nazi pages. To point this out is not meant to be offensive , and I reject any suggestion that this is POV .
EffK 12:14, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
This article is way out of balance. Consider, there are currently 2,778 words on all of the Weimar Republic until Stresemann's death in 1929. (That's from "The period of German history from ..." until "marked the end of the "Golden Era" of the Weimar Republic".) and 3,486 words on the demise of the WR ("The Republic crumbles ..." until "if Hitler had not been named chancellor".). Granted, its demise is an important subject but isn't it a bit overblown. In my calculation I have not counted references etc and have also removed a unintegrated and unbalanced paragraph. Str1977 21:46, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
This is the simplest the demise of the Weimar Republic can be assessed by me. *1:Demise is too passive a word as I don't think there is any legal basis for the Hitler conspiracy against Weimar, which is why Papen answered in the negative as to his knowledge of mal-treatment/arrests of deputies at his Trial. *2:Papen knew 'political opponents' were being arrested, but did not allow that he knew that this included deputies. *:3The logical inference is that Hindenburg's " Reichstag Fire Decree" did not cover anti-constitutional deputy arrests,*:4 and therefore the seizure of power was initiated by illegal conspiracy at at least 6 March when the arrests were, it appears, effected. This would explain Goering's statement that he/they needed no legality, cared for no legality, in this. *:5 However it rather begs the question: If Hitler knew the balance of the Reichstag to be affected by the day after the last free elections, 6 March, then the scenario of the Nazis 'robbing you car anyway', carries backwards to then. Hitler knew that he could rob the car/Reichstag from as early as this. *:6 Papen says he did not understand/know. We do know what Papen and Bruning and the rest of the Centre thought re the EAct vote. We know that Bruning was pushing a saving line re:Inquiry for the Fire/anulment of the 5 March elections:it would perhaps appear that Bruning knew that deputies were in captivity at 6 March. As Bruning himself argued right through to the 23 March against the Enabling vote,as treachery, only caving in to the promised letter negotiated by Ludwig Kaas c 22 or 23 /EAct day itself, presumably he saw the same alternative referred to at that Centre Party Germany 23 meeting by Kaas' words.This sourced: that a rejection of the EAct by the Centre bloc, would fracture the unity of that bloc(fraction' was the word). Bruning claimed that assent to the majority would of itself destroy the future identity of the Centre Party, in opposite to Kaas' analysis. *:7 Either way what is interesting is to relate these two opinions back to the period 6 March-15 March(when Hitler spoke at cabinet to the effect that he had the Centre's assent in the bag).From the Trials it is clear now that the first Coalition Cabinet met on the 30 January and, that the 15 March Cabinet simply gives a date for when Hitler thought he had that assent.*:8 We do not know why he thought so, but can relate it to your Str1977 original interpretation of the car's gonna be stolen anyway : Hitler may have simply suspected that the Centre would fold , but his "breezy confidence" of 15 March came from something more than suspicion. *:9 Vice-Chancellor non-Nazi Papen's activities, while "personally close" to the highest in the Vatican, and, in the absence of determining documentation (required from at least the Vatican Archives) could have determining bearing upon this breeziness. *:10 It is clear from the Trials that Papen considered accord and integration of Christianity as central to the future composition of the Reich. As the Protestant churches were heavily infiltrated with Nazism, it does not appear that the major problem was Protestantism. Rather it is clear that Papen strove to incorporate the Catholic Church as at least equal "bulwark" against out-right unspecified darker national/spiritual alternatives. It was Catholicism that Hitler had to tame, not German Protestantism. *:11 Catholics always (except in this instance of the eventual Reichskonkordat) retained autonomy of conscience subject completely to the pontiff (often called Rome). *:12 Hitler succeeded in requiring complete reversal of this autonomy, and that every cleric should obey the Government (by the time of the 20 July signing this meant in effect the NSDAP alone).*:13 Again, we know that Papen was building the bulwark from before January 30, and that *:14 Papen had close personal ties to Vatican power.*:15 Vatican power which in two days publicly assented itself to the known-to-be-brutal Nazis. *:16 Papen arrived in Rome on the 9 April, secretly with Ludwig Kaas. *:17 Kaas had the first Cardinal Pacelli audience, odd in itself. So later in the day Papen met with Pacelli. *:18 The following day Goering turns up , and he and Papen have an audience with the pontiff. The pontiff expresses his diplomatic pleasure as to the "un-compromising" strength of the new German Government . (At this later date it was clear that the un-constitutional, or as yet proven otherwise, arrests of the deputies had Enabled this strong man in Germany uncompromisingly opposed to ,well, such as these very KPD Communist Deputies. *:19 With no Reichskonkordat negotiations save a presumably brief Papen/Pacelli meeting the day before, the pontiff welcomes the uncompromising Hitler Government. This clear demonstration of shared motive, anti-communism whatever the means, appears to have been sufficient to over-ride that unconstitutionality of anti-communist KPD arrest and murder, which Papen claimed no knowledge of but which the other present on the 10 March Papal reception, Goering, on 6 March had publicly spoken of as being in-judicial . Negotiations between Papen for the Government and Pacelli for the pontiff suceeded in the one meeting of the 9 March, following his train journey with Kaas, which had seen Papen leave Berlin itself on the 8 March. Were it not for the two other factors, being Kaas , and being the avowed close personal relations Papen had with the highest powers( and there is only one highest power)in Rome, we could say that Papen had really solved the entire likely future of Catholicism in Germany in this one tired meeting, and that he achieved a successful co-ordination to Rome that had eluded both the German catholics and Rome, for centuries back.*:20 Kaas we know met Pacelli first, and Kaas presumably did not hover with Papen in ante-chambers and Hotel but was in fact a party to the out-come of the morrow, being assigned the task of completing the draft ot the Concord.*:21 In contrast to presentation of Kaas as incidental and un-important, is the curious shuttling he made between Rome and Berlin, of which this was the second journey,and being the final, bringing his self-exile. *:22 What makes the shuttle even more interesting to all historians is that Kaas had a mysterious, because totally private, meeting with Hitler after his first shuttle, as still Chairman of the Centre Party. *:23 We know that the Centre Party held meetings at which Kaas as Chair summarises members' positions prior to a vote. We do not know on what basis the Hitler meeting was held. We know that it was secret and we know that prior to it Kaas was in the vatican from 24 March to 31. He may have arrived on the 25 March, and he may not have arrived back in Berlin until the 1 April. *:24 We know that Kaas also had links to the vatican powers, that he too had close personal and Church/ P.A. relations to Cardinal Pacelli,the second highest power, originating in the previous decade . *:25 We know that formally Kaas went to Rome on the first shuttle to concern himself with problems in another matter to do with two towns. *:26 We know that as Centre Chairman, Kaas co-chaired with Hitler meetings that interpose between Hitler's breezy assertion in the Coalition Cabinet on 15 March, and the final handing in of the Centre vote consequent upon these meetings. *:27 We know that Kaas was deputed on 9 April at a Pacelli meeting, to draft the Reichskonkordat, if not at that first meeting , then at another meeting after possibly the Papen/Pacelli meeting of 9 April, but on 9 April. *:28 Of the actual 2 April Kaas meeting with Hitler, there is no account sourced thus far. It is said that this meeting was to have cleared up out-standing issues consequent on the Enabling Act. *:29 Histories mention the meeting, but all that appears in them consequent upon Kaas' vote at the enabling ct of 23 March, is the "Gentleman's Agreement" "most sardonic hypocrisy" of Hindenburg's letter to all the Centre leaders, which arrived somewhere around 24th or 25 March, when Kaas was in the vatican.*:30 We know that historians laugh at this letter and compare it with the peculiar and Kaas negotiated separate promised constitutional guarantee, which Kaas at the last moment of the 23 Reichstag Act did not receive . *:31 We know from histories and documents: record of Hitler's 23 u-turn Speech referencing the Holy See, the 28 March u-turn allowing catholics enter the NSDAP.*:32 Historians do not specify at what point the apparent quid pro quo negotiations open. *:33 The clean answer thus far presented in these Articles, is that Papen and Pacelli opened the negotiations on 9 April. *:34 That Goering appeared for the congratulations on behalf of the NSDAP-Nationalist German Government. *:35 We know that Hitler continued in his policies of conspiracy through-out, adhering to all prior published NSDAP plan, which was to destroy Parliamentary Democracy from within. *:36 Historians say that this is a rolling processs, and the Nuremberg Trials tried exactly this, as a crime of Conspiracy against the State. *:37 Therefrom arose the following fact that Hitler's conspiracy evolved within this co-alition. *:38 The Communists and quickly after the rigged Enabling Act, the Socialists are, in the first quasi- and second, then legally (the SPD) destroyed . *:39 The demise of the Weimar parties does not happen at the 23 Act. *:40 Hitler brilliantly rolls the 30 January opportunity/ process forward. *:41 He negotiates through his policy u-turn of the 23 March 1st session Speech towards the crucial shifting of, if not total allegiance , then utter toleration from, the entire Centre apparatus in both press and representatives. *:42 This is we know effected(viz Margaret Lambert)from 28 March, well before Kaas and Papen visit Rome on 9 April. In fact we see that that catholic Centre co-operation throughout Germany appears at the same u-turn made at the Fulda Bishop's Conference of 28 March . *:43 We see that the Holy See policy itself either allowed or effected a u-turn in its policy prior to the supposed start of negotiations on 9 April. *:44 Thus do historians carefully hint at quid pro quo. *:45 We know that they follow from the Nuremberg Trials, and that these themselves seem to grind to halt at the very edge of the mass or force of the Holy See. *:46 Papen shows that the Trials' Prosecution asserted the Reichskonkordat itself to be a "maneuver intended to deceive" . *:47 We know that in the rolling conspiracy, that the first word of auto-dissolution by the Centre Party, comes from the British Envoy and emanates from within the Vatican. This curious fact predates the first NSDAP formal acceptance of the Concordat, as from 5th to 12 July. *:46 The NSDAP only ratifies the Concordat in early September. *:47 We know that from before 30 January, that Papen worked to institute the fullest Church involvement as "bulwark" against Nazi 'anti-christianity'.*:48 That this process paralleled in time the Nazi destruction of all other parties. *:49 We have witnessed report of the Holy See's own rolling process as far back as May 1932, and we can only imagine as to whether the document referred to for that instruction has originating record within the Vatican Archive for May 1932. *:50 As the Holy See desired the Concordat and,it is claimed, even came to curiously desire the destruction of political catholicism in Germany, then we may see in future more light shed upon this history that so affected the world. *:51 History knows because of the Nuremberg Trials how Hitler effected the separate goal of mastery of the NSDAP, and that this was not complete at these events in time but that its own rolling process continued. *:52 We,lastly, know that in fact the Holy See was, at other linked moments in history, careful to avoid a future paper trail, so, whether even should all Archives be revealed, history will be any the wiser, is unsure. All the above was sourced as Neutral Point of View.
EffK 13:56, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
The links to wikis using non-Latin Characters in their title names have had those characters replaced by ?'s and should be fixed.
Their choosing the article I take as an accolade. EffK
There are two sections that contain a similar sentence. One section is November and 'Socialist General' Schleicher. The other section is Reichstag Fire. They both have the sentence that begins with "Eyeing the Catholic..." and ends with "...dissolution of the Reichstag." This repetition slightly devalues the article. Lestrade 15:01, 13 January 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
The two passages clearly refer to the same election and are identical. If you don't want others to clean up behind you than don't leave such a mess. If you do, don't complain that others do it not to your liking. Str1977 23:30, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I again re-read and you are correct , so OK to that you re-point out.. clever you...One swallow does not a summer make tho. I'm here because there's a second exact duplication of Reichskonkordat, and Lestrade and you both missed that- so no one's finding this easy- probably my messed editing too. When are you gonna allow the RKKdt back into AH mainspace, Str1977? Its key to source, central in Shirer, part of the deal everywhere. If it was so important why is it invisible except here? You were offered it limited to the quid pro quo you accepted, but you POV charged it and the charge that it singled out the Centre is gonna have to fail. There is no RKKdt at AH, despite plenty of other less important factors, it is off Nazi Germany, and here on Weimar it is neutered. It is shamefully successful of you. And I can't be blamed for including any purely pasting mess whilst you were pumping POV buckshot into my back non-stop, now can I? Anything actually wrong of mine that you wish to raise, please raise it ? I raise your wrong, now, when do you raise factual wrong, sourced wrong, not a pasting duplication? Where is my POV pushing in the articles exactly? i see a large acceptance of the consitutional illegality marred by largely legal at Enabling Act. Do you wish to sat that the change to Wikpedia which I have sourced, and which is becoming apparent , is POV? Why aren't you fishing it all out, exactly? EffK 04:18, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
A Political Science professor once told me that the Constitution of the "Weimar Republic" was one of the most beautiful legal documents he'd ever read. Is there an English translation of it available somewhere? Kingturtle 04:28, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
The problem with the constitution was that it was drawn up in the heady days after WWI, where politicians were almost as niave as 1960s hippies. They expected that in the era of democracy everyone would work together in unity and respect rather than be ruled by corrupt tyrants and despostic monarchs. So they failed to provide anything to cover the worst case senario should the electorate elect imbeciles, should politicians become corrupt, or in the case of Hindenburg, should an otherwise honourable man go senile. Many of the constitutions, eg, the Constitution of the Irish Free State, contained flaws caused by niave trust that things would go right, eg allowing for such things as popular referenda on laws which soon went wrong when it turned out that they weren't used by well-briefed voters but by cynical oppositions who convinced voters not by detailed discussions of the law but simplistic political slogans, etc. The Irish and Austrian constitutions both ended up being toughened up and having their more niave clauses dumped. In Weimar, the system contained a fatal flaw: a reich chancellor who was answerable both to the Reichstag and the Reich president. Once the Reichstag disintergrated into warring factions governments relied more and more on the president to enable them to govern through emergency decrees. Added to that, the honourable Hindenburg was never the sharpest penny on the block and by the early 1930s was mentally unfit for the post, showing clear signs of senility. So he could be manipulated. The final and most crazy flaw of all was that if the president died the Reich Chancellor became president. So when Hindenburg died, all the president's immense powers, the powers intended to protect the Weimar Republic, fell into the hands of its destroyer, the Reich Chancellor, Adolf Hitler.
The lesson from Weimar was simple: never less high falutin' dreams of utopia shape your constitution drafting. Be idealistic by all means, but also be realistic, and create sufficient checks and powers to stop parliament becoming too weak or the executive becoming too strong. In simple, don't let democracy's survival depend on the powers and skills of one individual.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
23:57, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I think the problem with the Weimar constitution was not that it was fatally flawed, but that if things went wrong, it contained too many flaws that could make the problems worse, and not enough strengths to help solve problems. In a different era it might have worked. But once it hit problems its basic design flaws were used against it. It was a brave attempt at democracy, but shows the problems that occur where niavety overrules restraint and cop-on in drafting a constitution. It was made for a perfect Utopia. Unfortunately for it Germany in the 1920s and certainly in the early 1930s was as far from Utopia as it was possible to be. That was to be its ultimate tragedy.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
01:43, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
There's another article at German Revolution that doesn't seem to be linked to from this one. The two have a lot of shared content, but it doesn't actually seem to overlap. Any thoughts on whether/to what extent they should be synchronized? -- Cantara 19:17, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
I have separated the sessions of the 23 March and recorded the events in order . I hope this clears up the difficulty . EffK 11:29, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, Jon, for removing ( [1]) the (even for EffK's standards over-the-top) slander I had overlooked and for cleaning these sections up better than I would have done it. As for Weimar dead and buried, please take Hindenburg's death into account as well, as this was the day that made Hitler's rule final and no longer assaiable by legal means. Str1977 23:37, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Dear Jon, of course my reference to Hindenburg was only the legal measure by which Hitler could be stopped. He could have deposed him at any time, which would have invalidated the Enabling Act as well, if I remember correctly. This all would have been based on the Reichswehr who would have followed Hindenburg. In fact, there was tension in the air in 1934 between conservatives (Papen et al.) and the Reichswehr on one hand and the SA under Röhm on the other hand. The SA wanted to replace the Reichswehr with itself as a militia. There were some secret talks about ending the Hitler government just as it had begun, by intrigue. Hitler however thwarted these dealings by siding with the Reichswehr and reducing the SA to a political entity and eventually decaptitating his paramilitaries. He did this because he knew that he was doomed if he sided with the SA and because the SA was not what he needed for the upcoming war. The end of Röhm thwarted conservative conspiracies, it earned Hitler the thanks of the military and also some respect from the dying Hindenburg. So I agree with you. Had Hitler not purged the SA before Hindenburg's death, a civil war might have been the result. I don't know with whom Hitler would have sided but in any case he would have come out damaged. Str1977 09:16, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
As far as I am concerned , Str has no wikipedia right to massage a source . Perhaps after adjudication ,on discussions which could conclusively source the disproof of the source(in this case Klemens von klemperer ) then perhaps the entire source placed /next to/prior/as logically accepted as preceding at inclusion of source's name/reference , could disappear .
What I will not accept is cavalier change of sourced reference, which the particular user has full knowledge of, the hand in being a direct quote .
If this editor Str1977 wished to disprove the source by disproving the book, its author etc. he could remove it . I do not accept that he has the right to massage the words of that source to his interpretation in the manner that he has done .
I should like to be able to trust users on WP , and be able to turn my back without particularly this user emasculating import against accepted practice referred to above . I am appalled , more by the action than by the equally unacceptable manner in which the editor followed his unaccptable change with a subsequent edit that seems to have had no action other that to tone down the editing description he gave to the previous action.
I am not able due to these type of actions to myself retain much confidence in the contributions by this editor , and I suggest that others carefully check facts and assertions most scrupulously . certainly opinions expressed by him should not override careful presentation of source . EffK 11:20, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
EffK,
Good day, Mr Goodfaith, 11:53, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Confusion reigns within the Hitler era pages . This editor has possibly stopped removing the sourced assertion that kaas is along with papen the most important facilitator for Hitler's rise to power. he has not entirely stopped removing links to these factors of Kaas from the civil of the ecclesiastical pages, but he seems to begin to allow more balance. I decry that this should have taken so long for me to achieve, and claim that here there is still in-admissable gap in the relevant historical facts , and denial of linkage , and bad faith accusation that all this is my conspiracy . As it applies to this article as much as Nazi Germany I bring this talk here under 'Industrialists' following .
I note that Consolidation of Power on Nazi Germany contains nil reference to the Industrialists . Indeed this subject is hard to find anywhere in the German history pages, very hard . Str1977 rejects this below as off topic to Enabling Act (consequences) so I bring it here where it should form inform us as to out-come. .This is brought in by John Toland as immediate consequence of Hitler's rigged success .The subject of the magnates bank-rolling Hitler prior to the rigged success is completely absent here on Weimar Republic, and so is their link to his supposed economic miracle, concerning which this sheds light.
I emphasize that the Industrialists during the last winter of Weimar, commoded Hitler, along with others , but were the financial equivalent of the Enabling Act ie vital rigging in the sail to dictatorial power .
With a link to Rhenish-Westphalian Industrial Magnates. Why this blind-spot ? Why are we behaving as if the Nuremburg Trials , and their American lessor trials concerning Trading with The Enemy , never happened . There is effective absence of the truth , as sourceable, throughout Wikipedia Nazi pages. To point this out is not meant to be offensive , and I reject any suggestion that this is POV .
EffK 12:14, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
This article is way out of balance. Consider, there are currently 2,778 words on all of the Weimar Republic until Stresemann's death in 1929. (That's from "The period of German history from ..." until "marked the end of the "Golden Era" of the Weimar Republic".) and 3,486 words on the demise of the WR ("The Republic crumbles ..." until "if Hitler had not been named chancellor".). Granted, its demise is an important subject but isn't it a bit overblown. In my calculation I have not counted references etc and have also removed a unintegrated and unbalanced paragraph. Str1977 21:46, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
This is the simplest the demise of the Weimar Republic can be assessed by me. *1:Demise is too passive a word as I don't think there is any legal basis for the Hitler conspiracy against Weimar, which is why Papen answered in the negative as to his knowledge of mal-treatment/arrests of deputies at his Trial. *2:Papen knew 'political opponents' were being arrested, but did not allow that he knew that this included deputies. *:3The logical inference is that Hindenburg's " Reichstag Fire Decree" did not cover anti-constitutional deputy arrests,*:4 and therefore the seizure of power was initiated by illegal conspiracy at at least 6 March when the arrests were, it appears, effected. This would explain Goering's statement that he/they needed no legality, cared for no legality, in this. *:5 However it rather begs the question: If Hitler knew the balance of the Reichstag to be affected by the day after the last free elections, 6 March, then the scenario of the Nazis 'robbing you car anyway', carries backwards to then. Hitler knew that he could rob the car/Reichstag from as early as this. *:6 Papen says he did not understand/know. We do know what Papen and Bruning and the rest of the Centre thought re the EAct vote. We know that Bruning was pushing a saving line re:Inquiry for the Fire/anulment of the 5 March elections:it would perhaps appear that Bruning knew that deputies were in captivity at 6 March. As Bruning himself argued right through to the 23 March against the Enabling vote,as treachery, only caving in to the promised letter negotiated by Ludwig Kaas c 22 or 23 /EAct day itself, presumably he saw the same alternative referred to at that Centre Party Germany 23 meeting by Kaas' words.This sourced: that a rejection of the EAct by the Centre bloc, would fracture the unity of that bloc(fraction' was the word). Bruning claimed that assent to the majority would of itself destroy the future identity of the Centre Party, in opposite to Kaas' analysis. *:7 Either way what is interesting is to relate these two opinions back to the period 6 March-15 March(when Hitler spoke at cabinet to the effect that he had the Centre's assent in the bag).From the Trials it is clear now that the first Coalition Cabinet met on the 30 January and, that the 15 March Cabinet simply gives a date for when Hitler thought he had that assent.*:8 We do not know why he thought so, but can relate it to your Str1977 original interpretation of the car's gonna be stolen anyway : Hitler may have simply suspected that the Centre would fold , but his "breezy confidence" of 15 March came from something more than suspicion. *:9 Vice-Chancellor non-Nazi Papen's activities, while "personally close" to the highest in the Vatican, and, in the absence of determining documentation (required from at least the Vatican Archives) could have determining bearing upon this breeziness. *:10 It is clear from the Trials that Papen considered accord and integration of Christianity as central to the future composition of the Reich. As the Protestant churches were heavily infiltrated with Nazism, it does not appear that the major problem was Protestantism. Rather it is clear that Papen strove to incorporate the Catholic Church as at least equal "bulwark" against out-right unspecified darker national/spiritual alternatives. It was Catholicism that Hitler had to tame, not German Protestantism. *:11 Catholics always (except in this instance of the eventual Reichskonkordat) retained autonomy of conscience subject completely to the pontiff (often called Rome). *:12 Hitler succeeded in requiring complete reversal of this autonomy, and that every cleric should obey the Government (by the time of the 20 July signing this meant in effect the NSDAP alone).*:13 Again, we know that Papen was building the bulwark from before January 30, and that *:14 Papen had close personal ties to Vatican power.*:15 Vatican power which in two days publicly assented itself to the known-to-be-brutal Nazis. *:16 Papen arrived in Rome on the 9 April, secretly with Ludwig Kaas. *:17 Kaas had the first Cardinal Pacelli audience, odd in itself. So later in the day Papen met with Pacelli. *:18 The following day Goering turns up , and he and Papen have an audience with the pontiff. The pontiff expresses his diplomatic pleasure as to the "un-compromising" strength of the new German Government . (At this later date it was clear that the un-constitutional, or as yet proven otherwise, arrests of the deputies had Enabled this strong man in Germany uncompromisingly opposed to ,well, such as these very KPD Communist Deputies. *:19 With no Reichskonkordat negotiations save a presumably brief Papen/Pacelli meeting the day before, the pontiff welcomes the uncompromising Hitler Government. This clear demonstration of shared motive, anti-communism whatever the means, appears to have been sufficient to over-ride that unconstitutionality of anti-communist KPD arrest and murder, which Papen claimed no knowledge of but which the other present on the 10 March Papal reception, Goering, on 6 March had publicly spoken of as being in-judicial . Negotiations between Papen for the Government and Pacelli for the pontiff suceeded in the one meeting of the 9 March, following his train journey with Kaas, which had seen Papen leave Berlin itself on the 8 March. Were it not for the two other factors, being Kaas , and being the avowed close personal relations Papen had with the highest powers( and there is only one highest power)in Rome, we could say that Papen had really solved the entire likely future of Catholicism in Germany in this one tired meeting, and that he achieved a successful co-ordination to Rome that had eluded both the German catholics and Rome, for centuries back.*:20 Kaas we know met Pacelli first, and Kaas presumably did not hover with Papen in ante-chambers and Hotel but was in fact a party to the out-come of the morrow, being assigned the task of completing the draft ot the Concord.*:21 In contrast to presentation of Kaas as incidental and un-important, is the curious shuttling he made between Rome and Berlin, of which this was the second journey,and being the final, bringing his self-exile. *:22 What makes the shuttle even more interesting to all historians is that Kaas had a mysterious, because totally private, meeting with Hitler after his first shuttle, as still Chairman of the Centre Party. *:23 We know that the Centre Party held meetings at which Kaas as Chair summarises members' positions prior to a vote. We do not know on what basis the Hitler meeting was held. We know that it was secret and we know that prior to it Kaas was in the vatican from 24 March to 31. He may have arrived on the 25 March, and he may not have arrived back in Berlin until the 1 April. *:24 We know that Kaas also had links to the vatican powers, that he too had close personal and Church/ P.A. relations to Cardinal Pacelli,the second highest power, originating in the previous decade . *:25 We know that formally Kaas went to Rome on the first shuttle to concern himself with problems in another matter to do with two towns. *:26 We know that as Centre Chairman, Kaas co-chaired with Hitler meetings that interpose between Hitler's breezy assertion in the Coalition Cabinet on 15 March, and the final handing in of the Centre vote consequent upon these meetings. *:27 We know that Kaas was deputed on 9 April at a Pacelli meeting, to draft the Reichskonkordat, if not at that first meeting , then at another meeting after possibly the Papen/Pacelli meeting of 9 April, but on 9 April. *:28 Of the actual 2 April Kaas meeting with Hitler, there is no account sourced thus far. It is said that this meeting was to have cleared up out-standing issues consequent on the Enabling Act. *:29 Histories mention the meeting, but all that appears in them consequent upon Kaas' vote at the enabling ct of 23 March, is the "Gentleman's Agreement" "most sardonic hypocrisy" of Hindenburg's letter to all the Centre leaders, which arrived somewhere around 24th or 25 March, when Kaas was in the vatican.*:30 We know that historians laugh at this letter and compare it with the peculiar and Kaas negotiated separate promised constitutional guarantee, which Kaas at the last moment of the 23 Reichstag Act did not receive . *:31 We know from histories and documents: record of Hitler's 23 u-turn Speech referencing the Holy See, the 28 March u-turn allowing catholics enter the NSDAP.*:32 Historians do not specify at what point the apparent quid pro quo negotiations open. *:33 The clean answer thus far presented in these Articles, is that Papen and Pacelli opened the negotiations on 9 April. *:34 That Goering appeared for the congratulations on behalf of the NSDAP-Nationalist German Government. *:35 We know that Hitler continued in his policies of conspiracy through-out, adhering to all prior published NSDAP plan, which was to destroy Parliamentary Democracy from within. *:36 Historians say that this is a rolling processs, and the Nuremberg Trials tried exactly this, as a crime of Conspiracy against the State. *:37 Therefrom arose the following fact that Hitler's conspiracy evolved within this co-alition. *:38 The Communists and quickly after the rigged Enabling Act, the Socialists are, in the first quasi- and second, then legally (the SPD) destroyed . *:39 The demise of the Weimar parties does not happen at the 23 Act. *:40 Hitler brilliantly rolls the 30 January opportunity/ process forward. *:41 He negotiates through his policy u-turn of the 23 March 1st session Speech towards the crucial shifting of, if not total allegiance , then utter toleration from, the entire Centre apparatus in both press and representatives. *:42 This is we know effected(viz Margaret Lambert)from 28 March, well before Kaas and Papen visit Rome on 9 April. In fact we see that that catholic Centre co-operation throughout Germany appears at the same u-turn made at the Fulda Bishop's Conference of 28 March . *:43 We see that the Holy See policy itself either allowed or effected a u-turn in its policy prior to the supposed start of negotiations on 9 April. *:44 Thus do historians carefully hint at quid pro quo. *:45 We know that they follow from the Nuremberg Trials, and that these themselves seem to grind to halt at the very edge of the mass or force of the Holy See. *:46 Papen shows that the Trials' Prosecution asserted the Reichskonkordat itself to be a "maneuver intended to deceive" . *:47 We know that in the rolling conspiracy, that the first word of auto-dissolution by the Centre Party, comes from the British Envoy and emanates from within the Vatican. This curious fact predates the first NSDAP formal acceptance of the Concordat, as from 5th to 12 July. *:46 The NSDAP only ratifies the Concordat in early September. *:47 We know that from before 30 January, that Papen worked to institute the fullest Church involvement as "bulwark" against Nazi 'anti-christianity'.*:48 That this process paralleled in time the Nazi destruction of all other parties. *:49 We have witnessed report of the Holy See's own rolling process as far back as May 1932, and we can only imagine as to whether the document referred to for that instruction has originating record within the Vatican Archive for May 1932. *:50 As the Holy See desired the Concordat and,it is claimed, even came to curiously desire the destruction of political catholicism in Germany, then we may see in future more light shed upon this history that so affected the world. *:51 History knows because of the Nuremberg Trials how Hitler effected the separate goal of mastery of the NSDAP, and that this was not complete at these events in time but that its own rolling process continued. *:52 We,lastly, know that in fact the Holy See was, at other linked moments in history, careful to avoid a future paper trail, so, whether even should all Archives be revealed, history will be any the wiser, is unsure. All the above was sourced as Neutral Point of View.
EffK 13:56, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
The links to wikis using non-Latin Characters in their title names have had those characters replaced by ?'s and should be fixed.
Their choosing the article I take as an accolade. EffK
There are two sections that contain a similar sentence. One section is November and 'Socialist General' Schleicher. The other section is Reichstag Fire. They both have the sentence that begins with "Eyeing the Catholic..." and ends with "...dissolution of the Reichstag." This repetition slightly devalues the article. Lestrade 15:01, 13 January 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
The two passages clearly refer to the same election and are identical. If you don't want others to clean up behind you than don't leave such a mess. If you do, don't complain that others do it not to your liking. Str1977 23:30, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I again re-read and you are correct , so OK to that you re-point out.. clever you...One swallow does not a summer make tho. I'm here because there's a second exact duplication of Reichskonkordat, and Lestrade and you both missed that- so no one's finding this easy- probably my messed editing too. When are you gonna allow the RKKdt back into AH mainspace, Str1977? Its key to source, central in Shirer, part of the deal everywhere. If it was so important why is it invisible except here? You were offered it limited to the quid pro quo you accepted, but you POV charged it and the charge that it singled out the Centre is gonna have to fail. There is no RKKdt at AH, despite plenty of other less important factors, it is off Nazi Germany, and here on Weimar it is neutered. It is shamefully successful of you. And I can't be blamed for including any purely pasting mess whilst you were pumping POV buckshot into my back non-stop, now can I? Anything actually wrong of mine that you wish to raise, please raise it ? I raise your wrong, now, when do you raise factual wrong, sourced wrong, not a pasting duplication? Where is my POV pushing in the articles exactly? i see a large acceptance of the consitutional illegality marred by largely legal at Enabling Act. Do you wish to sat that the change to Wikpedia which I have sourced, and which is becoming apparent , is POV? Why aren't you fishing it all out, exactly? EffK 04:18, 25 January 2006 (UTC)