This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
We Shall Overcome article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||
|
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
An infobox was requested for the 1963 Joan Baez recording of "We Shall Overcome" at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Missing_encyclopedic_articles/List_of_notable_songs/14.
I edited the page to give a bit more attribution to Guy Carowan. I base this on words I heard myself from Pete Seeger at a People's Music Network event in the 1980s, when he introduced Guy saying something like "...and he wrote a little song that became rather well known..." or something like that. I heard this from Pete's own mouth, though it was twenty years ago and my memory may be a bit distorted. If this is controversial, I can ask some of those still involved with PMN to cross-check what Pete's said.
Russell 15:45, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
It should probably be noted that this song has spread around so as to have significance outside of any civil rights movements, and even translated to other languages. There seems to be no other way how in India both this song (or probably some variant) and the Hindi version "Hum honge kaamyaab" could be taught to me in the Kindergarten (oh! old memories...) in 1985-86.
Proof: Google:"hum honge kaamyaab", Google:"we shall overcome one day" (the first match [1] as of now is about a Kerala finance minister singing the song)
BTW after all that (I was actually searching google for lyrics before I tried wikipedia) it is surprising to know that the song is not public domain. Is the Hindi variant, etc. illegal (I couldn't find the author of the Hindi variant, though)? Is singing the song (or variants) also illegal? Then should the verses be removed from the article? -- Paddu 25 Dec 2004
The song has also become famous in Czechoslovakia as a protest song against the communist regime (even before the Velvet Revolution), with the name "Jednou budem dál" and Czech text by Spirituál kvintet. - Mike Rosoft 21:49, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.143.30.175 ( talk) 17:06, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
There seem to be many variants of this song, e.g. [2], [3]. How is it verified that the version currently in the article is the original? -- Paddu 25 Dec 2004
Someone has added this to Category:1903 songs. If you read the article, you will see that associating any particular year with the song is rather arbitrary. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:55, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)
This was recently pasted into the article; I've moved it here. Why is this translation of encyclopedic notability in the English-language Wikipedia? -- Jmabel | Talk 18:00, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)
hum honge kamiyaab
hum honge kamiyaab
hum honge kamiyaab ek din
o ho man mein hai vishwaas
poora hai vishwaas
hum honge kamiyaab ek din
o ho man mein hai vishwas
poora hai vishwaas
hum honge kamiyaab ek din
hogi shaanti charon oor
hogi shaanti charon oor
hogi shaanti charon oor ek din
o ho man mein hai vishwas
poora hai vishwaas
hum honge kamiyaab ek din
"…the song was associated with Joan Baez…". Really? Particularly? I suspect this was only true of people who either particularly liked Joan Baez's singing style, or (conversely) particularly disliked both her and her politics. I don't think many people actively involved in the civil rights movement ever associated the song with Joan Baez. Is there some citable basis for this statement? -- Jmabel | Talk July 3, 2005 23:53 (UTC) I think she did lead the singing at the March on Washington. I changed the article to reflect that fact. At the time, it may have been associated with her. Bob Dylan and various others, including Harry Belafonte, were up there with her and Dr. King, but at the time she was the star and undeniably got a lot of mileage from the event. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.250.24.191 ( talk) 22:46, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Few (not me) have this book by Seegar handy, but what does he actually claim? Outside of the copyright section the article seems to express the idea that the lyrics and music both date back for a much longer time. I think that aside from a one-sentence claim that Seegar's particular arrangement is copyrighted by him and goes to support the listed fund, the rest is probably just speculation, especially the stuff about the possible court case based on some other precedent (there's no policy that Wikipedia is NOT a circuit court of appeals but maybe we need one ;) ) Being unsure of the situation though, I'll leave it to a second opinion to actually delete it down. Wnt ( talk) 19:25, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Why is this written in the "Origins" section: "Tindley's "I'll Overcome Someday" thus provides the structure for "We Shall Overcome", with both text and melody having undergone a process of alteration." WHO HAS THE RIGHT OR AUTHORITY TO ASSERT THIS CLAIM???? There is absolutely no evidence of this fact. In fact, Pete Seeger himself has stated in recorded interviews that "Nobody knows who wrote the original..." How is it that this so-called editor can make up things as if they were history? Why are there people here trying to perpetuate the same lie that has been told for 52 years?? I suspect there are "editors" here that work for Pete Seeger or TRO, the publishing company claiming illegal rights to the song. Shouldn't these facts have been verified by someone other than Seeger or authors that interviewed Seeger or other copyright claimants for their books? CHECK FOR YOURSELVES. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.90.159.249 ( talk) 05:40, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
Can someone put the lyrics on Wikisource or something and link to it? -- Frap ( talk) 19:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
We shall overcome, We shall overcome, We shall overcome some day.
Chorus: Oh deep in my heart, I do belive, We shall overcome some day.
We'll walk hand in hand, We'll walk hand in hand, We'll walk hand in hand some day.
Chorus: We shall all be free, We shall all be free, We shall all be free some day.
We are not afraid, We are not afraid, We are not afraid today.
Chorus: We are not alone, We are not alone, We are not alone today.
Chorus: The whole wide world around, The whole wide world around, The whole wide world around some day.
Chorus: We shall overcome, We shall overcome, We shall overcome some day!
I have restored the above sections of the talk page deleted by Isaias24 without archiving any of the material. This is inappropriate behavior. In addition, I find the assertions of the Gamboa book referred to below to be difficult to credit without further critical agreement that its central thesis is credible. Whether the material ought to be deleted until such verification is obtained, or whether the section should simply be cleaned up according to Wikipedia standards, ought to be debated on this page. Dwalls ( talk) 06:08, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
Deleting the entry dedicated to the discovery of We Shall Overcome's true author by Isaias Gamboa,i snot just a violation of the First Amendment, it speaks volumes to the very reason We Shall Overcome was misappropriated in the first place and has remained in the hands of Pete Seeger and others all these years. Truth, crushed to earth, will rise again. Perhaps there are those who would prefer to allow others to believe Seeger and his cohorts were incapable of such a thing. History will soon tell another story. I advise not removing the entry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.90.159.249 ( talk) 20:52, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
== True Author of We Shall Overcome REVEALED ==
n August of 2012, the book "We Shall Overcome: Sacred Song on the Devil's Tongue" (ISBN: 978-0615475288), was published. Written by author and 30-year music-industry veteran, Isaias Gamboa, the book proves in extraordinary detail that We Shall Overcome was actually derived from a popular copyrighted Baptist hymn entitled "If My Jesus Wills"; written by a Cincinnati, Ohio woman named Louise Shropshire. The evidence in the book clearly demonstrates that Shropshire's song was in fact COPYRIGHTED in 1954, proving her song to be the original source of We Shall Overcome -not Charles Albert Tindley's "I'll Overcome" as has been proposed for over 52 years. The book also reveals that Louise Shropshire was a close, influential friend of Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth and Rev, Thomas A. Dorsey and features never-before-seen photographs of Shropshire with these historical figures. After thorough analysis, prominent musicologists, historians, copyright and legal experts have unanimously affirmed these extraordinary discoveries. In addition to the striking musical similarities, Louise Shropshire's lyrics expose and bare witness to this fifty two year old historical innacuracy. Shropshire's lyrics: I'll Overcome, I'll Overcome, I'll Overcome Someday If My Jesus Wills, I Do Believe, I'll Overcome Someday". After numerous attempts, in August of 2012, Isaias Gamboa made contact with Pete Seeger and in a video-taped meeting at Seeger's home in upstate New York, Seeger was shown the evidence of Shropshire's Music and Lyrics. Without hesitation, Seeger stated "This is Wonderful" adding that Louise Shropshire "should be part of We Shall Overcome's history" [1]
Is the administrator of this site affiliated with either Pete Seeger of his publishing company TRO?? It sure seems like it. Does anyone care about this Charles Albert tindley story being proven a total lie? Has anyone here even heard Tindley's original copyrighted hymn?? I have. If you had done so, you would know that there is no way Seeger or his accomplices called upon it for inspiration. It is drastically different aside from some lyrics, which were common for the time and are arranged in a completely different format. What you don't know is that all of the assertions written here, come from the very people who have claimed copyright ownership of the song for all these years. Do your homework!! Whether anyone here knows it or not, Gamboa's book has blown the lid off a scandal the likes of which the music industry has never seen. It proves that Seeger and his cronies hijacked a song they knew belonged to someone else. In a month's time, this will be global news. Musicologists recognized worldwide have unanimously affirmed his findings and soon this We Shall Overcome page will be used as an example to show how legions of blind, Seeger loving folkies, helped him get away with this crime for over 50 years. Is anyone here concerned that Pete Seeger may have in fact plagiarized Louise Shropshire's song, If My Jesus Wills??? If not, you should be. There is already plenty of Black press covering Gamboa's book in Detroit, Atlanta, Dallas, Philly and L.A. But wait...isn't your reference to The so-called "mainstream press" a pseudonym for the White press?
What has been done here is shocking and wreaks with racial undertones. By flat out removing the entry for Isaias Gamboa's book, this page is trying to silence the truth; clearly demonstrating the biases, which facilitated these type of misappropriations for over a century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.90.159.249 ( talk) 04:38, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
Consider this short video clip; a small part of a feature documentary currently in production. You will see Seeger in the end, being confronted by Louise Shropshire's grandson with evidence. Seeing is believing...or is it?: [2] Think...why do you all believe Seeger's story?? Because he said so??? Outside of the people who copyrighted the song, no independent sources exist to prove Seeger's colorful myth. Think for yourselves. As unthinkable as this act was, it actually happened. The song that the Library of Congress has called "The Most Powerful Sng of the 20th Century" was plagiarized from a black woman, who filed two copyrights for her sacred hymn in 1945 and was an influential friend of Re Martin Luther King, Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth and Rev. Thomas A. Dorsey (The father of Gospel Music)...150 photo's...all proven in the the book. I am looking forward to seeing this site change to reflect the truth...ugly as it may be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.90.159.249 ( talk) 06:30, 15 October 2012 (UTC) ADDITIONAL PRESS FOR GAMBOA BOOK / This is not going away...page needs major overhaul. [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]
“Sheffield then commissioned a musicological report and involved the NAACP in the effort to seek truth, justice and recognition for Louise Shropshire's role in the history and creation of "We Shall Overcome".[13]”
That is not an appropriate style for an encyclopedia article. It’s fine, however, for an op-ed.
There’s a communist back story to this song that is missing: Monteagle, Seeger, et al., were Reds, which is not a secret, outside of Wikipedia. I wonder how many times this information has been censored. 24.90.190.96 ( talk) 20:56, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
It's great that Cincinnati has recognised Shropshire's creation of the song, and this should certainly be added to the page. The page is a bit of a mess really, and it doesn't need a long quote from the Council's minutes. I applaud the editors who have been trying to find this information, but it needs organising in a proper fashion.
What it does need is a proper addressing of the authorship, quite separate from the fact that it became used in the Civil Rights movement and became associated with the artists that it did. The page itself is contradictory. I'd be tempted to put the authorship stuff later on, and start with the Civil Rights movement to explain it's significance.
Are there more sources around which support the Gamboa book? Although the action by Cincinnati is certainly notable, I don't think it can be used as a "source" as such. Ben (Major Bloodnok) ( talk) 20:37, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
The page has been hijacked by one Isaias Gamboa, a "licensed Christian minister" on a self-promotion crusade. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.251.87.204 ( talk) 16:44, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
We Shall Overcome article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
An infobox was requested for the 1963 Joan Baez recording of "We Shall Overcome" at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Missing_encyclopedic_articles/List_of_notable_songs/14.
I edited the page to give a bit more attribution to Guy Carowan. I base this on words I heard myself from Pete Seeger at a People's Music Network event in the 1980s, when he introduced Guy saying something like "...and he wrote a little song that became rather well known..." or something like that. I heard this from Pete's own mouth, though it was twenty years ago and my memory may be a bit distorted. If this is controversial, I can ask some of those still involved with PMN to cross-check what Pete's said.
Russell 15:45, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
It should probably be noted that this song has spread around so as to have significance outside of any civil rights movements, and even translated to other languages. There seems to be no other way how in India both this song (or probably some variant) and the Hindi version "Hum honge kaamyaab" could be taught to me in the Kindergarten (oh! old memories...) in 1985-86.
Proof: Google:"hum honge kaamyaab", Google:"we shall overcome one day" (the first match [1] as of now is about a Kerala finance minister singing the song)
BTW after all that (I was actually searching google for lyrics before I tried wikipedia) it is surprising to know that the song is not public domain. Is the Hindi variant, etc. illegal (I couldn't find the author of the Hindi variant, though)? Is singing the song (or variants) also illegal? Then should the verses be removed from the article? -- Paddu 25 Dec 2004
The song has also become famous in Czechoslovakia as a protest song against the communist regime (even before the Velvet Revolution), with the name "Jednou budem dál" and Czech text by Spirituál kvintet. - Mike Rosoft 21:49, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.143.30.175 ( talk) 17:06, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
There seem to be many variants of this song, e.g. [2], [3]. How is it verified that the version currently in the article is the original? -- Paddu 25 Dec 2004
Someone has added this to Category:1903 songs. If you read the article, you will see that associating any particular year with the song is rather arbitrary. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:55, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)
This was recently pasted into the article; I've moved it here. Why is this translation of encyclopedic notability in the English-language Wikipedia? -- Jmabel | Talk 18:00, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)
hum honge kamiyaab
hum honge kamiyaab
hum honge kamiyaab ek din
o ho man mein hai vishwaas
poora hai vishwaas
hum honge kamiyaab ek din
o ho man mein hai vishwas
poora hai vishwaas
hum honge kamiyaab ek din
hogi shaanti charon oor
hogi shaanti charon oor
hogi shaanti charon oor ek din
o ho man mein hai vishwas
poora hai vishwaas
hum honge kamiyaab ek din
"…the song was associated with Joan Baez…". Really? Particularly? I suspect this was only true of people who either particularly liked Joan Baez's singing style, or (conversely) particularly disliked both her and her politics. I don't think many people actively involved in the civil rights movement ever associated the song with Joan Baez. Is there some citable basis for this statement? -- Jmabel | Talk July 3, 2005 23:53 (UTC) I think she did lead the singing at the March on Washington. I changed the article to reflect that fact. At the time, it may have been associated with her. Bob Dylan and various others, including Harry Belafonte, were up there with her and Dr. King, but at the time she was the star and undeniably got a lot of mileage from the event. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.250.24.191 ( talk) 22:46, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Few (not me) have this book by Seegar handy, but what does he actually claim? Outside of the copyright section the article seems to express the idea that the lyrics and music both date back for a much longer time. I think that aside from a one-sentence claim that Seegar's particular arrangement is copyrighted by him and goes to support the listed fund, the rest is probably just speculation, especially the stuff about the possible court case based on some other precedent (there's no policy that Wikipedia is NOT a circuit court of appeals but maybe we need one ;) ) Being unsure of the situation though, I'll leave it to a second opinion to actually delete it down. Wnt ( talk) 19:25, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Why is this written in the "Origins" section: "Tindley's "I'll Overcome Someday" thus provides the structure for "We Shall Overcome", with both text and melody having undergone a process of alteration." WHO HAS THE RIGHT OR AUTHORITY TO ASSERT THIS CLAIM???? There is absolutely no evidence of this fact. In fact, Pete Seeger himself has stated in recorded interviews that "Nobody knows who wrote the original..." How is it that this so-called editor can make up things as if they were history? Why are there people here trying to perpetuate the same lie that has been told for 52 years?? I suspect there are "editors" here that work for Pete Seeger or TRO, the publishing company claiming illegal rights to the song. Shouldn't these facts have been verified by someone other than Seeger or authors that interviewed Seeger or other copyright claimants for their books? CHECK FOR YOURSELVES. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.90.159.249 ( talk) 05:40, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
Can someone put the lyrics on Wikisource or something and link to it? -- Frap ( talk) 19:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
We shall overcome, We shall overcome, We shall overcome some day.
Chorus: Oh deep in my heart, I do belive, We shall overcome some day.
We'll walk hand in hand, We'll walk hand in hand, We'll walk hand in hand some day.
Chorus: We shall all be free, We shall all be free, We shall all be free some day.
We are not afraid, We are not afraid, We are not afraid today.
Chorus: We are not alone, We are not alone, We are not alone today.
Chorus: The whole wide world around, The whole wide world around, The whole wide world around some day.
Chorus: We shall overcome, We shall overcome, We shall overcome some day!
I have restored the above sections of the talk page deleted by Isaias24 without archiving any of the material. This is inappropriate behavior. In addition, I find the assertions of the Gamboa book referred to below to be difficult to credit without further critical agreement that its central thesis is credible. Whether the material ought to be deleted until such verification is obtained, or whether the section should simply be cleaned up according to Wikipedia standards, ought to be debated on this page. Dwalls ( talk) 06:08, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
Deleting the entry dedicated to the discovery of We Shall Overcome's true author by Isaias Gamboa,i snot just a violation of the First Amendment, it speaks volumes to the very reason We Shall Overcome was misappropriated in the first place and has remained in the hands of Pete Seeger and others all these years. Truth, crushed to earth, will rise again. Perhaps there are those who would prefer to allow others to believe Seeger and his cohorts were incapable of such a thing. History will soon tell another story. I advise not removing the entry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.90.159.249 ( talk) 20:52, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
== True Author of We Shall Overcome REVEALED ==
n August of 2012, the book "We Shall Overcome: Sacred Song on the Devil's Tongue" (ISBN: 978-0615475288), was published. Written by author and 30-year music-industry veteran, Isaias Gamboa, the book proves in extraordinary detail that We Shall Overcome was actually derived from a popular copyrighted Baptist hymn entitled "If My Jesus Wills"; written by a Cincinnati, Ohio woman named Louise Shropshire. The evidence in the book clearly demonstrates that Shropshire's song was in fact COPYRIGHTED in 1954, proving her song to be the original source of We Shall Overcome -not Charles Albert Tindley's "I'll Overcome" as has been proposed for over 52 years. The book also reveals that Louise Shropshire was a close, influential friend of Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth and Rev, Thomas A. Dorsey and features never-before-seen photographs of Shropshire with these historical figures. After thorough analysis, prominent musicologists, historians, copyright and legal experts have unanimously affirmed these extraordinary discoveries. In addition to the striking musical similarities, Louise Shropshire's lyrics expose and bare witness to this fifty two year old historical innacuracy. Shropshire's lyrics: I'll Overcome, I'll Overcome, I'll Overcome Someday If My Jesus Wills, I Do Believe, I'll Overcome Someday". After numerous attempts, in August of 2012, Isaias Gamboa made contact with Pete Seeger and in a video-taped meeting at Seeger's home in upstate New York, Seeger was shown the evidence of Shropshire's Music and Lyrics. Without hesitation, Seeger stated "This is Wonderful" adding that Louise Shropshire "should be part of We Shall Overcome's history" [1]
Is the administrator of this site affiliated with either Pete Seeger of his publishing company TRO?? It sure seems like it. Does anyone care about this Charles Albert tindley story being proven a total lie? Has anyone here even heard Tindley's original copyrighted hymn?? I have. If you had done so, you would know that there is no way Seeger or his accomplices called upon it for inspiration. It is drastically different aside from some lyrics, which were common for the time and are arranged in a completely different format. What you don't know is that all of the assertions written here, come from the very people who have claimed copyright ownership of the song for all these years. Do your homework!! Whether anyone here knows it or not, Gamboa's book has blown the lid off a scandal the likes of which the music industry has never seen. It proves that Seeger and his cronies hijacked a song they knew belonged to someone else. In a month's time, this will be global news. Musicologists recognized worldwide have unanimously affirmed his findings and soon this We Shall Overcome page will be used as an example to show how legions of blind, Seeger loving folkies, helped him get away with this crime for over 50 years. Is anyone here concerned that Pete Seeger may have in fact plagiarized Louise Shropshire's song, If My Jesus Wills??? If not, you should be. There is already plenty of Black press covering Gamboa's book in Detroit, Atlanta, Dallas, Philly and L.A. But wait...isn't your reference to The so-called "mainstream press" a pseudonym for the White press?
What has been done here is shocking and wreaks with racial undertones. By flat out removing the entry for Isaias Gamboa's book, this page is trying to silence the truth; clearly demonstrating the biases, which facilitated these type of misappropriations for over a century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.90.159.249 ( talk) 04:38, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
Consider this short video clip; a small part of a feature documentary currently in production. You will see Seeger in the end, being confronted by Louise Shropshire's grandson with evidence. Seeing is believing...or is it?: [2] Think...why do you all believe Seeger's story?? Because he said so??? Outside of the people who copyrighted the song, no independent sources exist to prove Seeger's colorful myth. Think for yourselves. As unthinkable as this act was, it actually happened. The song that the Library of Congress has called "The Most Powerful Sng of the 20th Century" was plagiarized from a black woman, who filed two copyrights for her sacred hymn in 1945 and was an influential friend of Re Martin Luther King, Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth and Rev. Thomas A. Dorsey (The father of Gospel Music)...150 photo's...all proven in the the book. I am looking forward to seeing this site change to reflect the truth...ugly as it may be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.90.159.249 ( talk) 06:30, 15 October 2012 (UTC) ADDITIONAL PRESS FOR GAMBOA BOOK / This is not going away...page needs major overhaul. [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]
“Sheffield then commissioned a musicological report and involved the NAACP in the effort to seek truth, justice and recognition for Louise Shropshire's role in the history and creation of "We Shall Overcome".[13]”
That is not an appropriate style for an encyclopedia article. It’s fine, however, for an op-ed.
There’s a communist back story to this song that is missing: Monteagle, Seeger, et al., were Reds, which is not a secret, outside of Wikipedia. I wonder how many times this information has been censored. 24.90.190.96 ( talk) 20:56, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
It's great that Cincinnati has recognised Shropshire's creation of the song, and this should certainly be added to the page. The page is a bit of a mess really, and it doesn't need a long quote from the Council's minutes. I applaud the editors who have been trying to find this information, but it needs organising in a proper fashion.
What it does need is a proper addressing of the authorship, quite separate from the fact that it became used in the Civil Rights movement and became associated with the artists that it did. The page itself is contradictory. I'd be tempted to put the authorship stuff later on, and start with the Civil Rights movement to explain it's significance.
Are there more sources around which support the Gamboa book? Although the action by Cincinnati is certainly notable, I don't think it can be used as a "source" as such. Ben (Major Bloodnok) ( talk) 20:37, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
The page has been hijacked by one Isaias Gamboa, a "licensed Christian minister" on a self-promotion crusade. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.251.87.204 ( talk) 16:44, 9 April 2016 (UTC)