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The explanation of the name is inadequate:
My guess is they used a measure somewhat similar to a peck, which has been adopted in English translations.-- Grahamec 01:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
The movement has been translated as either 'five bushels of rice' or 'five pecks of rice.' The usage of peck in scholarly literature is dominant. But you do raise a good point about them not being the same. Therefore for consistency, I changed bushel to peck. Zeus1234 01:35, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
I am going to try again and have this page changed back to its original name ‘Way of the Celestial Master.’ I think that in frenzy of comments posted during the last discussion with the person who changed the name of the article to ‘Tianshi School,’ much of my argument was lost. Therefore I am going to try and rearticulate it.
I wrote this article after having consulted much of the relevant English language literature on the topic, therefore I feel I am qualified to make a judgment on what is the predominant English-language usage. The name of the movement in Chinese is ‘Tianshi Dao,’ which translated roughly into ‘Way of the Celestial Master.’ This is name used in the vast majority of English language sources, although admittedly some translate it as ‘Way of the Heavenly Master.’ Tianshi school is NEVER used in any source I have come across.
The following is taken from Template talk:Taoism and was posted by the user Xuanyingzi. I feel it offers a good summary of the name of the school, and will include it here to bolster my argument.
It seems to me that Way of the Celestial Masters is the most appropriate way to refer to Tianshi dao in English. "Tianshi" literally means "Celestial Master" or "Heavenly Master". "Dao" of course is usually translated as "Way".
The name Tianshi, however, is somewhat ambiguous. As regards Tianshi dao, it may refer to:
(1) The first Tianshi, i.e., Zhang Daoling (2nd century CE)
(2) The current Tianshi at (almost) any time in Chinese history
(3) The entire series of sixty-four Tianshi (from the 2nd century to the present day)
In (1) and (2), one might translate "Way of the Celestial Master" -- i.e., the "Way" originated by Zhang Daoling, or the "Way" presided over by those who later held the title of Tianshi.
However, there seems to be a general consensus among scholars that Tianshi dao refers to the entire tradition represented by all Tianshi. In this sense, "Way of the Celestial Masters" (plural) is the most accurate translation. Scholars also say, in a more informal way, "the Celestial Masters" to mean Tianshi dao, or "the Way of the Celestial Masters". Few scholars, instead, would refer to Tianshi dao as "Tianshi School", except as a passing reference which they would not take as a literal translation. (Many scholars would also object to the use of "school" in this context, but we can leave this discussion for another day.)
Furthermore when we do a google search that only includes english language results, we can see that ‘Way of the Celestial Master’ (combined with its pluralized form) receives far more hits than ‘Tianshi Dao.’ ‘Tianshi School’ receives 6 hits. If we didn’t limit to English results, Tianshi Dao would bring back results in other langauges such as German and French
As wikipedias article name guidelines state:
From the Wikipedia page Naming Conventions [5]:
Because of the fact there are more English language results under the name ‘Way of the Celestial Masters,’ I strongly suggest that the article name be changed back to its orginal form ‘The Way of the Celestial Masters.’ Even the Britannica article is under the name ‘The Way of the Celestial Masters’ [6] Zeus1234 22:43, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
If google is claimed to be a clumsy test, that still does not change the fact that the translated form of the name is still used more prominently. In most of the recent scholaship on the topic, 'Way of the Celestial Masters' or some derivative is used. I can attest to this mainly because I have done research on the Celestial Masters, and have had to consult these sources. I think that you need to have had some experience reading these books in order to see this. Zeus1234 14:29, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Tianshi School → Way of the Celestial Masters Zeus1234 22:42, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
The result of the debate was no consensus. If you have any questions, please contact me at my talk page. Ian Manka 15:02, 7 January 2007 (UTC) We have several possibilities including "The Celestial Masters", "The Way of the Celestial Masters", "The Celestial Master School" or leave it as "The Tianshi School", or revert it back to its previous name.
I personally think that we should revert the article back to its previous title "Way of the Celestial Master," or change it to "Way of the Celestial Masters." This name is preferred in the English language over Tianshi Dao, which returns fewer English language search results.
I have requested to revert article title to the previous title Way of the Celestial Master at Wikipedia:Requested moves#Uncontroversial proposals as it was moved to the current title without discussion. If someone want to change the title, please discuss first.
I am studying Daoism at university, and have thus consulted much of the relevant literature. I wrote an article about the Celestial Masters under the title Way of the Celestial Master, as I felt that it was a term that described the school as a movement and that was used in scholarly literature. Hong Qi Gong unilaterally moved the article to Tianshi School without any consultation, and broke the many links I had made to the original article.
Admittedly, the title of the article is not perfect. The problem with this title (as is with any translated name), is that many people describe the movement in different ways. The most prevalent seem to fall into two camps: Derivatives involving the words 'Celestial Master.' These include things such as 'Way of the Celestial Master,' 'Way of the Celestial Masters,' and 'The Celestial Masters.' The other term used is 'Tianshi Dao,' which the pinyin version of the Chinese name.
Out of all the recent books (written within the past 10 years) that I have looked at that adress the Celestial Masters, they usually begin by calling the movement 'Way of the Celestial Master,' with 'Tianshi Dao' is brackets afterwards to indicate the Chinese version. Sometimes they will then refer to the movement as a whole as simply 'The Celestial Master.'
Here is a list of searches using google books and regular google:
Google Books
As you can see, the google book search, which offers a way to see what terms scholars are using, 'Celestial Masters' and its derivatives far outplace 'Tianshi Dao.'
In the google search, the same can be seen. As Hong pointed out in our animated discussion on the Template:Taoism discussion, some of the results for the searches dont specifically refer to the Taoists. This can be seen in both the searches for 'Tianshi Dao,' and 'Celestial Masters' Tianshi Dao returns many results from French and German sites, and in addtion a website selling Chinese medicine also had the title 'Tianshi Dao.' Even if we were to discount half of the Celestial Master links, they would still vastly outnumber the results for Tianshi Dao. We must also take into consideration the English language search of Tianshi Dao, which list only 145 results compared 530 results for "Way of the Celestial Masters."
As wikipedias article name guidelines state:
From the Wikipedia page Naming Conventions [22]:
Note the 'English speakers' part that is bolded. Clearly English speakers are more familiar with the term 'Way of the Celestial Masters' than with 'Tianshi Dao.' Zeus1234 08:10, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Therefore, I am in support of moving the article back to its original title Way of the Celestial Master. Zeus1234 18:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Also, if you combine the 'Way of the Celestial Master' with 'Way of the Celestial Masters' google book searches, they outnumber the Tianshi Dao search results 40-27. A new book by Pregadio (Great Clarity-2006) not on google books, uses exclusively 'Way of the Celestial Master' as a description of the movement. This would indicate that scholars seem to be moving in a direction that favours the English translation. Zeus1234 19:14, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
The raw google test is notoriously unreliable; and Master and Masters should not be combined; the article must be at one or the other. I also observe, from the google.books search for this title, that translations vary as far as New Heavenly Masters School. I would consider on this evidence simplifying to Tianshi, if it is unambiguous. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Why not leave this article here, and write a new article Celestial Masters, being a list of those who have claimed the title, either in this tradiition or in some other. Two subjects; two names. When all else fails, try compromise. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:26, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I do think that the prevalence of the translation in English scholarship should be recognized. I find this matter quite important simply because I've written a paper on the Celestial Masters, and none of the books our articles I used feature 'tianshi' in any sort of prominent capacity. I think that with the name of article including Tianshi as is, it does not recognize this dominance of the translated term.
I think it is important to recognize that some form of the English translation of 'Tianshi Dao' is used in the majority of English Scholarship. I would support any form of 'Celestial Master' or 'Heavenly Master' going to a disambiguation page with several articles listed. One could be list of the Celestial Masters themselves, another could be an article titled "Tianshi Dao" that leads to a page about the school. In addition, a third unwritten article (that I could write) could be added to the disambiguation that discusses the Zhengyi sect, which was a continuation of the Celestial Masters that arose in the Song dynasty in around the 11th century. Perhaps prominet masters such as Zhang Daoling could be included on such a disambiguation page. This way, it is recognized that the English translation is important.
Ultimately I would prefer the article to be called by its original title "The Way of the Celestial Master," but I am willing to accept whatever is decided by a consensus or agreement, or the disambiguation proposal I proposed. Zeus1234 21:44, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
As a complete outsider, I see the current name as the worst of three possible choices: Tianshi Dao (traditional name, which there is a movement now to favor), Tianshi School (a mish-mash of English and Chinese), or the original name. Xiner ( talk, email) 20:25, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was move. JPG-GR ( talk) 22:17, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Tianshi Dao → Way of the Celestial Masters
I see there's a bit of a history here already, but I've reviewed the talk page, and it seems that a policy has been overlooked which deals with this exactly. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) addresses this, so I think we should reopen it, although I think the policy is pretty clear here. - Oreo Priest talk 04:56, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
It seems as if no-one has objected in two weeks. Does this mean we can do it? - Oreo Priest talk 11:33, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
The Five Pecks of Rice Rebellion occurred in 184, the same year as the Yellow Turban Rebellion. They seem to be very similar, but this article says the Five Pecks of Rice Rebellion was successful while the Yellow Turban Rebellion article indicates that rebellion was not successful. Were they the same? Can someone knowledgeable about this clarify this issue? Wakablogger2 ( talk) 07:14, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
A fact from Way of the Celestial Masters appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 20 December 2006. The text of the entry was as follows:
|
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||
|
The explanation of the name is inadequate:
My guess is they used a measure somewhat similar to a peck, which has been adopted in English translations.-- Grahamec 01:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
The movement has been translated as either 'five bushels of rice' or 'five pecks of rice.' The usage of peck in scholarly literature is dominant. But you do raise a good point about them not being the same. Therefore for consistency, I changed bushel to peck. Zeus1234 01:35, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
I am going to try again and have this page changed back to its original name ‘Way of the Celestial Master.’ I think that in frenzy of comments posted during the last discussion with the person who changed the name of the article to ‘Tianshi School,’ much of my argument was lost. Therefore I am going to try and rearticulate it.
I wrote this article after having consulted much of the relevant English language literature on the topic, therefore I feel I am qualified to make a judgment on what is the predominant English-language usage. The name of the movement in Chinese is ‘Tianshi Dao,’ which translated roughly into ‘Way of the Celestial Master.’ This is name used in the vast majority of English language sources, although admittedly some translate it as ‘Way of the Heavenly Master.’ Tianshi school is NEVER used in any source I have come across.
The following is taken from Template talk:Taoism and was posted by the user Xuanyingzi. I feel it offers a good summary of the name of the school, and will include it here to bolster my argument.
It seems to me that Way of the Celestial Masters is the most appropriate way to refer to Tianshi dao in English. "Tianshi" literally means "Celestial Master" or "Heavenly Master". "Dao" of course is usually translated as "Way".
The name Tianshi, however, is somewhat ambiguous. As regards Tianshi dao, it may refer to:
(1) The first Tianshi, i.e., Zhang Daoling (2nd century CE)
(2) The current Tianshi at (almost) any time in Chinese history
(3) The entire series of sixty-four Tianshi (from the 2nd century to the present day)
In (1) and (2), one might translate "Way of the Celestial Master" -- i.e., the "Way" originated by Zhang Daoling, or the "Way" presided over by those who later held the title of Tianshi.
However, there seems to be a general consensus among scholars that Tianshi dao refers to the entire tradition represented by all Tianshi. In this sense, "Way of the Celestial Masters" (plural) is the most accurate translation. Scholars also say, in a more informal way, "the Celestial Masters" to mean Tianshi dao, or "the Way of the Celestial Masters". Few scholars, instead, would refer to Tianshi dao as "Tianshi School", except as a passing reference which they would not take as a literal translation. (Many scholars would also object to the use of "school" in this context, but we can leave this discussion for another day.)
Furthermore when we do a google search that only includes english language results, we can see that ‘Way of the Celestial Master’ (combined with its pluralized form) receives far more hits than ‘Tianshi Dao.’ ‘Tianshi School’ receives 6 hits. If we didn’t limit to English results, Tianshi Dao would bring back results in other langauges such as German and French
As wikipedias article name guidelines state:
From the Wikipedia page Naming Conventions [5]:
Because of the fact there are more English language results under the name ‘Way of the Celestial Masters,’ I strongly suggest that the article name be changed back to its orginal form ‘The Way of the Celestial Masters.’ Even the Britannica article is under the name ‘The Way of the Celestial Masters’ [6] Zeus1234 22:43, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
If google is claimed to be a clumsy test, that still does not change the fact that the translated form of the name is still used more prominently. In most of the recent scholaship on the topic, 'Way of the Celestial Masters' or some derivative is used. I can attest to this mainly because I have done research on the Celestial Masters, and have had to consult these sources. I think that you need to have had some experience reading these books in order to see this. Zeus1234 14:29, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Tianshi School → Way of the Celestial Masters Zeus1234 22:42, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
The result of the debate was no consensus. If you have any questions, please contact me at my talk page. Ian Manka 15:02, 7 January 2007 (UTC) We have several possibilities including "The Celestial Masters", "The Way of the Celestial Masters", "The Celestial Master School" or leave it as "The Tianshi School", or revert it back to its previous name.
I personally think that we should revert the article back to its previous title "Way of the Celestial Master," or change it to "Way of the Celestial Masters." This name is preferred in the English language over Tianshi Dao, which returns fewer English language search results.
I have requested to revert article title to the previous title Way of the Celestial Master at Wikipedia:Requested moves#Uncontroversial proposals as it was moved to the current title without discussion. If someone want to change the title, please discuss first.
I am studying Daoism at university, and have thus consulted much of the relevant literature. I wrote an article about the Celestial Masters under the title Way of the Celestial Master, as I felt that it was a term that described the school as a movement and that was used in scholarly literature. Hong Qi Gong unilaterally moved the article to Tianshi School without any consultation, and broke the many links I had made to the original article.
Admittedly, the title of the article is not perfect. The problem with this title (as is with any translated name), is that many people describe the movement in different ways. The most prevalent seem to fall into two camps: Derivatives involving the words 'Celestial Master.' These include things such as 'Way of the Celestial Master,' 'Way of the Celestial Masters,' and 'The Celestial Masters.' The other term used is 'Tianshi Dao,' which the pinyin version of the Chinese name.
Out of all the recent books (written within the past 10 years) that I have looked at that adress the Celestial Masters, they usually begin by calling the movement 'Way of the Celestial Master,' with 'Tianshi Dao' is brackets afterwards to indicate the Chinese version. Sometimes they will then refer to the movement as a whole as simply 'The Celestial Master.'
Here is a list of searches using google books and regular google:
Google Books
As you can see, the google book search, which offers a way to see what terms scholars are using, 'Celestial Masters' and its derivatives far outplace 'Tianshi Dao.'
In the google search, the same can be seen. As Hong pointed out in our animated discussion on the Template:Taoism discussion, some of the results for the searches dont specifically refer to the Taoists. This can be seen in both the searches for 'Tianshi Dao,' and 'Celestial Masters' Tianshi Dao returns many results from French and German sites, and in addtion a website selling Chinese medicine also had the title 'Tianshi Dao.' Even if we were to discount half of the Celestial Master links, they would still vastly outnumber the results for Tianshi Dao. We must also take into consideration the English language search of Tianshi Dao, which list only 145 results compared 530 results for "Way of the Celestial Masters."
As wikipedias article name guidelines state:
From the Wikipedia page Naming Conventions [22]:
Note the 'English speakers' part that is bolded. Clearly English speakers are more familiar with the term 'Way of the Celestial Masters' than with 'Tianshi Dao.' Zeus1234 08:10, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Therefore, I am in support of moving the article back to its original title Way of the Celestial Master. Zeus1234 18:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Also, if you combine the 'Way of the Celestial Master' with 'Way of the Celestial Masters' google book searches, they outnumber the Tianshi Dao search results 40-27. A new book by Pregadio (Great Clarity-2006) not on google books, uses exclusively 'Way of the Celestial Master' as a description of the movement. This would indicate that scholars seem to be moving in a direction that favours the English translation. Zeus1234 19:14, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
The raw google test is notoriously unreliable; and Master and Masters should not be combined; the article must be at one or the other. I also observe, from the google.books search for this title, that translations vary as far as New Heavenly Masters School. I would consider on this evidence simplifying to Tianshi, if it is unambiguous. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Why not leave this article here, and write a new article Celestial Masters, being a list of those who have claimed the title, either in this tradiition or in some other. Two subjects; two names. When all else fails, try compromise. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:26, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I do think that the prevalence of the translation in English scholarship should be recognized. I find this matter quite important simply because I've written a paper on the Celestial Masters, and none of the books our articles I used feature 'tianshi' in any sort of prominent capacity. I think that with the name of article including Tianshi as is, it does not recognize this dominance of the translated term.
I think it is important to recognize that some form of the English translation of 'Tianshi Dao' is used in the majority of English Scholarship. I would support any form of 'Celestial Master' or 'Heavenly Master' going to a disambiguation page with several articles listed. One could be list of the Celestial Masters themselves, another could be an article titled "Tianshi Dao" that leads to a page about the school. In addition, a third unwritten article (that I could write) could be added to the disambiguation that discusses the Zhengyi sect, which was a continuation of the Celestial Masters that arose in the Song dynasty in around the 11th century. Perhaps prominet masters such as Zhang Daoling could be included on such a disambiguation page. This way, it is recognized that the English translation is important.
Ultimately I would prefer the article to be called by its original title "The Way of the Celestial Master," but I am willing to accept whatever is decided by a consensus or agreement, or the disambiguation proposal I proposed. Zeus1234 21:44, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
As a complete outsider, I see the current name as the worst of three possible choices: Tianshi Dao (traditional name, which there is a movement now to favor), Tianshi School (a mish-mash of English and Chinese), or the original name. Xiner ( talk, email) 20:25, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was move. JPG-GR ( talk) 22:17, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Tianshi Dao → Way of the Celestial Masters
I see there's a bit of a history here already, but I've reviewed the talk page, and it seems that a policy has been overlooked which deals with this exactly. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) addresses this, so I think we should reopen it, although I think the policy is pretty clear here. - Oreo Priest talk 04:56, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
It seems as if no-one has objected in two weeks. Does this mean we can do it? - Oreo Priest talk 11:33, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
The Five Pecks of Rice Rebellion occurred in 184, the same year as the Yellow Turban Rebellion. They seem to be very similar, but this article says the Five Pecks of Rice Rebellion was successful while the Yellow Turban Rebellion article indicates that rebellion was not successful. Were they the same? Can someone knowledgeable about this clarify this issue? Wakablogger2 ( talk) 07:14, 5 January 2011 (UTC)