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deported mid season 07/08 Quee1797 ( talk) 18:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Reading through the article the only comment I have to make is that 'generally good-natured' is definitely NOT a term I would use to describe our rivalry with Luton Town - 2002 was mild in comparison with some of the problems I have known Watford fans to have experienced in the past, including rock-throwing by some Luton fans at a League tie in the 80s and vandalism to vehicles parked in Luton bearing any signs of a Watford-supporting owner. From participation in message boards in recent years I would suggest that rather than 'good-natured' the rivalry continues to be bitter and fairly vicious at times, particularly from the Luton fans.
It is with great neutrality that I declare that Luton suck :) Wikinista 06:31, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I haven't been able to find references to the FourFourTwo magazine rivalry description on the internet. So I suggest we remove this reference and change the opening line to simply: "Watford fans maintain a strong rivalry with those of Luton Town." HornetEd 13:15, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Whilst Kenny Samson is a former Watford player and is a famous player, I feel that that section should only include Watford players who are team "heroes," so to speak. After all, players like Kenny Jackett are hardly "famous," but are included. The "famous" definition applies to within the Watford fanbase, and thus Samsom shouldn't be there.
I've removed Moralee, as he isn't famous in either sense of the definition. (This was written by me before I was familiar with Wikipedia I've re-arranged it to the point chronologically where it should be, and to tidy up the talk page.) HornetMike 18:47, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Anyone seen Kenny recently....who would know he played football, let alone was good !! (I almost said good enough for England but that doesn't mean much anymore)
Wikinista (
talk) 17:36, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Am I being blind, or is Luthor Blisset not listed?! Surely he should be for several reasons? Swfblade ( talk) 16:33, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Cheers •CHILLDOUBT• 18:27, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Whilst our one was sparse, a lot of club pages do have it. It doesn't exactly do any harm, does it?
Why on earth has someone edited out the records section? And all the catergories stuff and half the managers? I don't know how to get this back, I hope someone else does because I really don't want to have to write it all out again.
Re: other changes. I know the new squad list is now in the official football squad fromat, but it actually now displays less information! What's the point in changing it?
Regarding the Heroes/Famous players section. I agree that if you call them "heroes" you're going POV. But I do feel the way we've got it now ignores huge amounts of notable Watford players just because they're not particularly famous. Maybe if the "heroes" list was restored under a header of "notable Watford players" Bit ambigous though, thoughts?
Whilst I understand that the squad has now been in an official Wiki template, I do feel the old chart (with a little bit of re-organisation) would be far better. Admittedly it's slightly larger, but it contains more information (birthdays - although I'm not researching them unless the consensus on here is good, date of arrival, previous club etc. The positions are slightly less generic as well.) Personally I think it looks better as well.
I thought this would be good:
Thoughts? The only problem I can see is that there's no way of showing Richard Lee's on loan without messing it up a bit. HornetMike 19:12, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
I have been investigating the Wiki - template for football squads. There are some interesting arguments for both formats:
Conventional format's main points
However the chart format (originally borrowed from now removed chat on Liverpool site) provides more information. This is more important with lower league teams, I feel. Whilst Premiership clubs can justifiably create articles for each of their players, containing information on join dates and so forth, it would be ridiculous for players such as Ben Gill to have their own article. Thus the information should be contained. The information in the above chart gives an indication of the average age of the Watford squad, as well as the general source of it's players (i.e. academy and signings from other clubs of our level) and how established the side is (i.e. Lewington's squad would had a series of joined dates quite far in the past. The Boothroyd squad chart shows it to be a recently assembeled squad.)
Furthermore, I don't really understand the need to have a smallish chart. This isn't much bigger and there are bits of the article that are larger anyway. What's the problem? As for keeping the same format across the league, I find this a faintly ridiculous argument. Each football article is entirely different, depending on the amount of work that has been invested in it by fans. Why insist on unifromity for one tiny section but not the rest?
Another interesting point made in favour of the Wiki-format is that "a lot of people invested time in it" So? Just because they invested time in it doesn't mean it's necessarily the right format to use in the circumstances.
I await correspondence from some people before I change it back, of course. HornetMike 18:37, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I think that this table is brilliant. It is much more informative than the current one, and who cares about the size? This really should be the standard table, for Squads and Managers. As for Richard Lee, add a note at the bottom or something, maybe put it in the last column. As I say, I feel it is much better and more informative, and I support putting it in the article. Kingfisherswift 08:59, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I've just started the first part of a new revamp - the Luton rivalry section. Over the next few months I plan to add sections on the club's colours and crests, boost the history section, revamp the notable players section and add more statistics. HornetMike 13:57, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
I've added the notable players section. I've made it as non-POV as possible, focusing on the players achievements with the club. If anyone knows anything about Dennis Uphill, Dennis Bond, Mo Johnston, Steve Terry or Keith Eddy could they please add sections. Also, I know Callaghan had two spells at Watford, and I think the official site lumps them all together as 1980-91. I've put this date in, but if anyone knows the two spells, could you please include them. I also can't find the debut year for Tom Walley.
I'm debating over which players to include from the play-off side. I think Richard Johnson, perhaps, but who else? Kennedy? Smart? Wright? Hyde? Rosenthal (from 97/98, obv)? Are Helguson and Robinson worthy of mention?
In terms of players who didn't make a huge contribution at Watford but did at other clubs, I've included David James and Pat Jennings, but omitted Kevin Phillips, as he only really had one good season with us.
Not sure about Gerry Armstrong - thoughts? HornetMike 03:08, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I've noticed that the managers table has half the months in and half out. Using soccerbase.com (Link at base of page) can somebody assist me in cleaning up the managers for good? Thanks. Kingfisherswift 19:04, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Done, although Soccerbase looks like it has a few errors in that department. I double-check it against Trefor Jones when I get home. HornetMike 19:53, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
HornetMike - while I agree Wikipedia ain't a news service, it might have been productive to edit the changes to be more of a description of what went on in the first leg of the semi. It's unavoidably relevant what happened in it, after all!
Just a thought, as they say. Nmg20 21:24, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi, sorry for not replying sooner, my IP's been blocked because some idiot at the University was vandalising. I removed the reference because I didn't want 2005/06 to revert back what it had previously been - lots of itty-bitty statements about favourite players/good matches all stuck together. I was going to add something after the completion of the tie, but obviously some people are ahead of me! Cheers, HornetMike 18:35, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
No problem - I think it looks pretty good right now - but we'll review in ten days time, eh? :-) Nmg20 22:25, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
O-ho-ho, certainly! HornetMike 23:05, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
"Watford Football Club are an English professional football club based in Watford, Hertfordshire." wouldn't "Watford FC is" be more grammatically correct?
I agree
I don't agree - Although common usage is in both the singular or plural, It is more common and accurate to use a discretionary plural when taking about clubs, particularly in British English.
[1] As it is a British club, it is perhaps even more appropriate to use the plural.
•CHILLDOUBT• 22:26, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Is Watford F.C. a publically traded company and if so what is thier ticker symbol. Thank you. John R G 17:30, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Watford's a PLC, yeah. No idea what the ticker symbol is, sorry. I don't know much about shares, unfortunately. One place to look is any portfolio of Michael Ashcroft, if they're available. HornetMike 20:36, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I found the ticker symbol and added it to the main page. John R G 07:00, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Is he still a Watford player I thought he retired at the end of last (05-06) season. Kingjamie 15:21, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I think I remember hearing that Elton John bought a football club for a pound. I know know that he was owner of Watford, but did he pay a pound for them as I remember??
Added Mo :-)
This section is quit long and would perhaps be better suited to a separate article, with only the players' names listed here, alongside See main article... Fedgin | Talk 10:46, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi all who keep this excellent page up to date, very good work.
In the last week I've been attempting to add our own "External link" which is a 100% Watford FC related forum called WFCForums, (www.wfcforums.com). It's run for free and has no advertising of any type on the pages. It's 100% non profit making but run entirely for the benefit of the Watford supporting community, take a look if you need proof. Unfortunately this link keeps being removed by HornetMike with the reason being, "not a link farm".
The heading is "External Links", WFCForums is a 100% Watford FC related external link, so can someone please explain why it keeps being removed? As already explained, we're not making money but just providing a valuable service and information point for Watford supporters worldwide. The one link for an unofficial Watford FC page you do have is now unsupported and out of date.
If this would be better discussed in private please drop me an e-mail: admin AT wfcforums.com
Many Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.18.78.6 ( talk • contribs)
Hello, I'm the chap who's been removing the wfcforums link from the article. I know it looks a bit malicious and anal, sorry about that. I'm following the Wikipedia policy on external links, which can be found here: WP:EL The criteria there pretty much excludes wfcforums from being included there. Believe me, it's nothing personal - I've had to remove GloryHorns and various other blogs/forums from there in the past. Hope you understand, HornetMike 14:05, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
WP:EL says"Adding external links can be a service to our readers, but they should be kept to a minimum of those that are meritable, accessible and appropriate to the article." As www.wfcforums.com is accessible and appropriate, im not sure what problems you can see HornetMike. The site as explained is watford fc forums, it is beneficial to most, and causes no harm to anyone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Albangura9 ( talk • contribs)
It's not appropriate though. I feel you mis-interpreted the policy from reading the nutshell piece. I refer you to:
"Who Made the Nazi's?" Mark E Smith Wikinista ( talk) 17:38, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Looking at the notable players section and seeing Marlon King and Ashley Young there, I am wondering if Tommy Smith should be added: 2 spells and over 150 appearances, that seems enough for me, but I'd like a general consensus. Cheers, к1иgf1$н£я5ω1fт 15:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Image:Watford2.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
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BetacommandBot 04:36, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
For a club founded in 1881, it seems odd that the History section only starts in 1977. Did nothing of merit happen in the first 95 years? Daemonic Kangaroo 08:39, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Some would question since :-)
Wikinista (
talk) 17:39, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Image:Watford crest.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 20:29, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
I have created a stub article on Hertfordshire Rangers F.C. who appear to be one of the fore-runners of Watford F.C., but I am a bit confused about their history. Unfortunately the Watford F.C. article says little about the very early history. My searches on the web have come up with several very different versions.
Here it says "Formed around 1865, Rangers featured in the FA Cup between 1875 and 1881. In 1898 they merged with Watford St Peters to form the modern Watford FC.", which was the basis for my initial article.
Here, however, it says "In December 1870, the Watford Observer carried a report on Hertfordshire Rangers - the forerunners of Watford Rovers. Watford Rovers was formed by a group of lads in 1881 who had been given permission by the Earl of Essex to kick a football around in Cassiobury Park. In 1882, home games began in Vicarage Meadow and a year later, the club's name was changed to West Herts. In 1898, a rival club, Watford St Mary's, was absorbed by West Herts and the name 'Watford' was formally adopted."
Version 3 says "The club takes the year of its formation as 1881 when Watford Rovers was formed. This club amalgamated in 1890 with West Hertfordshire Rangers, believed to have been formed in 1865. In 1896, the club joined the Southern League Second Division, turning professional the following year. For a period the town boasted two professional clubs but it quickly became clear that this was not sustainable and in 1898, West Herts Rangers and Watford St Mary’s FC merged to form Watford FC."
Finally, we have "They were formed in 1881 as Watford Rovers. They later merged with Hertfordshire Rangers and Watford St Mary’s to become Watford FC."
Unfortunately, the history section of the club's own website is "under construction" so is of no help at all at present. Can someone clarify the position and perhaps include a brief summary of the early history in the Watford article, and correct any errors in the Herts Rangers page. Cheers. -- Daemonic Kangaroo ( talk) 11:08, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
There appears to be an edit war starting with regards to the survey that shows that Watford's second rivals are QPR. So I thought maybe we could canvas opinion of whether this nugget of information should be included. Perhaps giving away my opinion on the subject, I'd like to make three points:
Whilst I am an avid reader of this site, it's a blog/message board and contains no factual information, so should this be included in a Wikipedia page? WW9066 ( talk) 13:53, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm trying to get this article up to GA status (maybe even FA, but that's a heck of a long shot....), but currently there's only one sentence about his time at Vicarage Road, and I don't know what else might need adding. Surely there must be something else to say about a five year stint at a club one division below the top flight? Any thoughts.........? ChrisTheDude ( talk) 12:14, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
I've started drafting a list of Watford F.C. managers in my sandbox. It's very much in the early stages, but if anyone would like to lend a hand, that would be grand. Also, can anyone recommend any sources for this, either printed or online? Thanks. Seegoon ( talk) 13:15, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm working on a couple of side-articles at the moment (managers, current season, players of the year). I want to do players as well but I don't have a proper reference for them, so that might have to wait. Anyway, after I'm up to date on recent season articles it will be easier to brutally trim the history, so at that point I was planning on taking this article itself on, with the aim of making it a Featured Article.
My opinion is that we should list the hall of fame inductees in a table (Luther Blissett, John McClelland, Les Taylor, David James, Ian Bolton, Tommy Mooney and Tony Coton), with a sentence or so about each of them, and have the rest of them listed like they have done here, with criteria similar to the ones we currently have. I think that anything about the individuals which is so important that it must stay on this page could be incorporated into the history, otherwise it can go in their articles.
Just wondering if people had any other opinions about things that could be done to improve the article as a whole, or if anyone has any alternative ideas? WFCforLife ( talk) 15:33, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
I would state that the League Cup is a major honour, it's entered by the best teams at the time. The lower division titles are not major honours, because winning the Championship is coming 21st in the football league. HornetEd ( talk) 16:30, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
The article's coming along quite nicely. My main concerns are with the sources:
There probably are a few more, but those are the ones that spring to mind. WFCforLife ( talk) 12:17, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
A discussion is being held here on the possibility of rolling out a new squad template. The new template, named {{ football squad player2}}, differs from the standard squad layout in several ways:
It is proposed that the new template be added to some of Wikipedia's most high-profile club articles, which might include Watford F.C.. To give your thoughts, please read and contribute to the discussion at WikiProject Football.
Regards, Edinburgh Wanderer 19:43, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Mainly directed at WFC, but by all means to anyone else prepared to get stuck into getting the article to GA status (note, all are mere suggestions, some probably go beyond what a GA needs, but all are meant to be helpful!):
The Rambling Man ( talk) 16:51, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Casliber ( talk · contribs) 10:40, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi - I'll make copyedits as I go (please revert if I inadvertently change the meaning) and jot queries below: Casliber ( talk · contribs) 10:40, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Other than that, looking pretty good. Casliber ( talk · contribs) 00:33, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
1. Well written?:
2. Factually accurate and verifiable?:
3. Broad in coverage?:
4. Reflects a neutral point of view?:
5. Reasonably stable?
6. Illustrated by images, when possible and appropriate?:
Overall:
Not really familiar with the club but the full name "Watford Association Football Club" doesn't appear in the article. Given it doesn't seem to be used anywhere except legal records, is there some sort of history behind the name? Hack ( talk) 01:05, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
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Jack Petchey owned and ran the club from 1987 to 1994 and his name isn't mentioned on the article once. Talk about a major hole in the article, I think this needs to be addressed. Govvy ( talk) 11:57, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
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A date is incorrect. In "Early Years" second paragraph, 6th line. The date of the Watford Observer should change from - "28th May 1898 to 7th May 1898".The source is http://thestrawplaiters.com/rivalry-the/ Pleatys dance ( talk) 09:22, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
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Change 1898 to 1881
The club was founded in 1881 - not as stated in this line 'Founded in 1898 by the amalgamation of West Herts and Watford St. Mary's.'<ref><ref>
http://www.watfordfcarchive.com/
Namorrodor (
talk) 12:46, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
The Watford FC page is missing Juan Camilo Hernandez (Cucho Hernandez) as a player out on loan. His own page is correct and states that he is indeed owned by Watford and out on loan at Huesca Davey79c ( talk) 14:46, 4 March 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davey79c ( talk • contribs) 11:22, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
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The Watford FC page is missing Juan Camilo Hernandez (Cucho Hernandez) as a player out on loan. His own page is correct and states that he is indeed owned by Watford and out on loan at Huesca Davey79c ( talk) 15:39, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
@ BigBoi233 and Pleatys dance: please discuss the issue here rather than reverting each other's edits back & forth. Giant Snowman 08:32, 12 June 2019 (UTC) The 1881 date is incorrect. The Watford Observer of the 7th May 1898 clearly shows that two local clubs amalgamated to form a new club - “When three-parts of the season was gone, there were whispers of the advantages of amalgamation of the two clubs. That the principle was right few disputed, and the question narrowed itself down to a few minor difficulties. It was ascertained that the executive on both sides regarded the suggestion favourably, and joint meetings of the officials were arranged. The proposals took a definite shape, and very soon amalgamation was a thing accomplished. It was decided, however, that each club should finish off its fixtures. Next season the Watford club will play on the Cassio-Road ground, and one of the chief ideas of the amalgamation is to have a second team of sufficient strength to be an attraction while the first string is engaged elsewhere. The details of the amalgamation scheme we have already given in these columns. Generally speaking, then, the local football season which has just closed has been a most important one. It has witnessed two steps which have marked fresh epochs - the adoption of professionalism and the amalgamation of West Herts and Watford St. Mary’s.”
The full F.A. council met in May 1898 and as reported at the time “permission was given to Watford St. Mary’s and West Herts to take the name of Watford Football Club , the two clubs having amalgamated.” The F.A. would clearly have been asked to make this decision and would have wanted the requisite evidence and approval from both clubs officials before putting the matter before the full council.
So directly from May 1898 you have evidence that the two sets of officials met, negotiated and agreed amalgamation which the F.A. approved and the Watford Observer reported. Regrettably, the word "amalgamation" has been replaced by the word "absorption" by those close to the club. This gives the impression that West Herts absorbed Watford St. Mary's. They did not. This wrongful replacement of the word "amalgamation" was done with the intention of making West Herts history go back to 1891 and then back to 1881 when their predecessors, Watford Rovers, are said to be formed. The suggestion has also been made that Watford St. Mary's went bust. They did not. They folded because of the amalgamation with West Herts. Here it is important to note that West Herts full title was "West Herts Club and Ground" - it was a sports club which also had teams playing rugby, cricket, lacrosse and so on. West Herts therefore did not fold as Watford St. Mary's did. The insult to the memory of the men of Watford St. Mary's is therefore a great one - 5 of their players played for the new club of Watford F.C. including the first black player, John Cother. -- Pleatys dance ( talk) 09:04, 12 June 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pleatys dance ( talk • contribs) 08:57, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
Watford Fc as we know them today started in 1898 yes but Watford true founding date is 1881 the club has stated this on its website and even have the 1881 foundation club it is annoying many true Watford supporters that someone is changing the date on Wikipedia please address this
Watford Fc 1881 BigBoi233 ( talk) 10:45, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
You don't dispute any of the facts I posted about 1898. You just make a plea to ignore the facts! What about Watford St. Mary's history? Are they to be swept aside in order to justify the 1881 date? Why not enlighten Watford supporters of the true history and celebrate Watford St. Mary's as well as West Herts, Watford Rovers and football generally in Watford. I can help you with some history on Watford St. Mary's if you want to create a wiki page for them and give them their rightful place in history. -- Pleatys dance ( talk) 11:03, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
The point is that the official books are incorrect as per the facts I set out above - Watford St. Mary's amalgamated with West Herts in 1898 to form Watford F.C.. I agree the article needs improving as it must show the part Watford St. Mary's played and they should preferably have their own wiki page. -- Pleatys dance ( talk) 11:42, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
I was asked to discuss 1898 and 1881 with BigBoi233. I have already set out the facts (above) but will do so again as you appear to have missed them. "The Watford Observer of the 7th May 1898 clearly shows that two local clubs amalgamated to form a new club - “When three-parts of the season was gone, there were whispers of the advantages of amalgamation of the two clubs. That the principle was right few disputed, and the question narrowed itself down to a few minor difficulties. It was ascertained that the executive on both sides regarded the suggestion favourably, and joint meetings of the officials were arranged. The proposals took a definite shape, and very soon amalgamation was a thing accomplished. It was decided, however, that each club should finish off its fixtures. Next season the Watford club will play on the Cassio-Road ground, and one of the chief ideas of the amalgamation is to have a second team of sufficient strength to be an attraction while the first string is engaged elsewhere. The details of the amalgamation scheme we have already given in these columns. Generally speaking, then, the local football season which has just closed has been a most important one. It has witnessed two steps which have marked fresh epochs - the adoption of professionalism and the amalgamation of West Herts and Watford St. Mary’s.”
The full F.A. council met in May 1898 and as reported at the time “permission was given to Watford St. Mary’s and West Herts to take the name of Watford Football Club , the two clubs having amalgamated.” The F.A. would clearly have been asked to make this decision and would have wanted the requisite evidence and approval from both clubs officials before putting the matter before the full council.
So directly from May 1898 you have evidence that the two sets of officials met, negotiated and agreed amalgamation which the F.A. approved and the Watford Observer reported. Regrettably, the word "amalgamation" has been replaced by the word "absorption" by those close to the club. This gives the impression that West Herts absorbed Watford St. Mary's. They did not. This wrongful replacement of the word "amalgamation" was done with the intention of making West Herts history go back to 1891 and then back to 1881 when their predecessors, Watford Rovers, are said to be formed. The suggestion has also been made that Watford St. Mary's went bust. They did not. They folded because of the amalgamation with West Herts. Here it is important to note that West Herts full title was "West Herts Club and Ground" - it was a sports club which also had teams playing rugby, cricket, lacrosse and so on. West Herts therefore did not fold as Watford St. Mary's did. The insult to the memory of the men of Watford St. Mary's is therefore a great one - 5 of their players played for the new club of Watford F.C. including the first black player, John Cother." Do you not think that Watford St. Mary's true history should be told? -- Pleatys dance ( talk) 11:57, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
With respect, the Watford Observer of the 7th May 1898 is a valid source - I have added the citation (13) referring to the relevant copy of the paper on the British Newspaper Archive. I apologise if I have not added it correctly. It is a source that was clearly missed by the author of the book you refer to (which I have read). I thought myself and BigBoi233 were going to discuss this issue and come to an agreement. I am trying to help clarify how the club was formed. Books must be challenged as copy and paste, lazy journalism and incomplete research have always been around (that is not intended as an insult - I have a football history website so come across this alot). I am making that challenge and have had no arguments in return. What else should I do as I don't want to breach policy. -- Pleatys dance ( talk) 12:28, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
I don't think strange foundation dates are necessarily a result of bad research, I can't believe someone like Trefor Jones didn't know about the article in the Watford Observer. Until somewhere in the 1990's there are different versions of the early history of Watford. Formed after the amalgamation of West Herts and Watford St. Mary's in 1898, founded in 1891 (...used to be in Rothmans, copied year after year) as Watford Rovers. Trefor Jones used the word absorbed in his books published in the 1990's. Why he did this I don't know, the answer is not in the books. The answer could be hidden somewhere in the history after 1898. I don't have more recent books.
In 1991 SVV and Dordrecht' 90 merged to form a new club SVV/Dordrecht'90. Initially everybody regarded this as a new club, founded in 1991. SVV (Schiedam) played in the Eredivisie, they had a decent squad, an ambitious chairman willing to invest, but no stadium and not much support. Dordrecht '90 had a stadium, an ambitious chairman and they played in the Eerste Divisie. In the 1991/92 season SVV/Dordrecht played in the Eredivisie. A large part of the squad used to play for SVV, chairman was Cees den Braven (Dordrecht). The former SVV chairman couldn't get with Den Baven and left the new club after one year, and I doubt there where many former SVV supporters, who travelled to Dordrecht to see the new club. After a year SVV was no longer part of the name of the club, and Dordrecht became like the club they were before the merger, but they don't deny that the merger never happened. The current club FC Dordrecht was founded in 1883 as D.F.C. If you find the foundation date 1 July 1972, and you can. That was when the club first got its current name. Is this unfair to the history of the SVV club, maybe it is ,but SVV still has a rich history of its own. There are similar cases where the date of the foundation is the date of the merger, but there are plenty of cases were the date of foundation after the merger is the date of foundation of the earliest forerunner. Whatever you choose, there is always a similar precedent. It would be nice, if there had been universal rules dealing with these things, but they simply don't exist. (I was never a Dordrecht or SVV supporter.) Cattivi ( talk) 12:52, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
The Watford Observer piece is a primary source written in May 1898 by the Sports Editor of the paper. Victorian Sports Editors were usually players or ex players who were heavily involved in sports in the town where they worked and some were on football club committees. The editor would have known all the major figures involved at the West Herts Club and Ground and Watford St. Mary’s. Books written in the 1990’s are secondary sources - they should have relied on primary sources written as close to the event as possible. There are numerous mentions of the amalgamation in the newspapers of April and May 1898 and indeed later in that year. I agree that the insertion of the word “absorption” to replace amalgamation is a mystery. It may have been used (incorrectly) at a later date as a quick explanation as to how the club was formed. West Herts appear to have seen themselves as the senior club so their supporters may have used “absorption” as a nod to their past. However, the primary May 1898 source from someone close to the events (and indeed the F.A. full committee approval of the amalgamation and the adoption of the name of the new club, Watford F.C.), trumps any secondary sources that comes later.
I am familiar with the Stoke City arguments. The view also exists that Stoke City were formed in 1908. The original club - Stoke Ramblers/ Stoke went bankrupt in 1908, withdrew from the Football League, all the players left and the committee disbanded. The newspapers of the time clearly state that a completely new organisation was formed later in the Summer. That new club started off in the Birmingham League. Yet today, Stoke City have 1863 on their badge. 1863 was the year that the first newspaper report of football being played in Stoke was published - played on Shrove Tuesday, not a recognised football match and no club is mentioned or known to have existed. Their wiki page has 1863 and 1868 as their date of formation - 1908 is ignored by most. I know from their forum that Stoke fans today do not accept 1863 yet it is firmly embedded in the club’s fabric and shows no sign of shifting.
Returning to the point, I think it is important is to recognise the men of Watford St. Mary’s who have largely been ignored. Why just follow West Herts/Watford Rovers back to 1881 and ignore Watford St. Mary’s? They should have their own wiki page (which I have already volunteered to help with) and their full story told. For instance, John Cother, Watford F.C.’s first black player, played for Watford St. Mary’s yet this is largely ignored. The club also reached the final of the Herts County Cup in 1895 and still attracted significant crowds in the 1897/98 season so they deserve recognition. Similar to Stoke City, there are Watford fans who stand firmly behind 1898 and ignore 1881 entirely. -- Pleatys dance ( talk) 14:54, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
I see that Tom Brodrick has side stepped this discussion and amended the foundation date in the article to include 1881 because the club recognises that date. I invite Tom to join in this discussion. His comments actually help seal the argument for 1898. Tom makes two points. The first is the recognition by the club of the 1881 date. The club can only make a decision based on what it is told by its historian. In that respect, Tom refers to the “Watford Archives” ((WA) and kindly provides a link (citation 13) to the relevant page. The WA, a secondary source, states when talking about West Herts -
“There was talk of an amalgamation with local rivals Watford St Mary’s, but nothing came of it. St Mary’s became defunct in 1898, and their registered players immediately became free agents. Five of them were signed by Watford FC as players. Neither those players, nor the officials under which they had played for St Mary’s, had any administrative function in the affairs of Watford FC.”
This is incorrect - the WA has completely missed the primary source of the Watford Observer report of the 7th May 1898 (citation 15) on the amalgamation of the two clubs on the 15th April 1898 and the approval by the full council of the F.A. on the 27th May 1898 - the full details of the amalgamation have already been set out by me elsewhere in this discussion and remain in the main article. If the modern club were not told of the 1898 amalgamation then it is not surprising that it chose to accept the 1881 date.
The second point is in respect of Watford St. Mary’s, where Tom Brodrick states -
“the degree to which the latter remained an extant organisation capable of being involved in a formal amalgamation is disputed by football historians.”
This statement appears to be based on the WA chronology (a secondary source) for 1898, which states -
“When rival club Watford St. Mary’s folds West Herts’ name is changed, for the last time, to Watford.”
As I have already stated in this discussion, West Herts Club and Ground were a sports club. Besides Association Football, the club also played other sports including cricket, rugby and lacrosse. When the amalgamation came in 1898, the West Herts Club and Ground continued to exist to support the other sports. Watford St. Mary’s however, were solely a football club. Therefore, when the amalgamation came with West Herts in 1898, Watford St. Mary’s had to be wound up. As the WA missed the amalgamation entirely, it is little surprise that the winding up of Watford St. Mary’s has been misinterpreted.
The persistent unfounded attack on the Watford St. Mary’s club is puzzling as is the reliance on secondary sources and an apparent unwillingness to accept primary sources or to properly research the subject. I will therefore set out the remainder of the relevant points which should be made widely known.
The amalgamation agreement in April 1898 had to be approved by the Annual General Meeting of the West Herts Club and Ground. I will quote the Club Secretary’s address to that meeting, taken from page 7 of the Herts Advertiser of the 13th August 1898 -
“Now as to the future. You will doubtless all agree that a very judicious step was taken in arranging an amalgamation with the Watford St. Mary’s Club. It was felt that Watford was not large enough to support two professional teams, and the St. Mary’s committee were of the opinion that the West Herts ground should be the centre of Watford football, and a very fair and amicable arrangement was made. When it is considered that even when a good gate was obtained on the West Herts ground there were 400 or 500 spectators on the Watford St. Mary’s ground, it is apparent to what extent we may look for an increased gate. In addition to this, we are glad to say that the St. Mary’s players have loyally come to our assistance and we shall be able to form two teams of almost equal strength, and having arranged strong home fixtures for every Saturday during the season, we shall be able to command a good gate when our League team is away.”
What stands out of this report is that - “the St. Mary’s committee were of the opinion that the West Herts ground should be the centre of Watford football”. It was the Watford St. Mary’s committee who saw the reality that the town could not support two professional clubs and had the foresight to put Watford football first. Their players did not become free agents as claimed by the WA - they “loyally” rallied to the cause of football in Watford. The club did not fold for financial reasons and were not absorbed by West Herts.
A great debt is owed to Watford St. Mary’s. Rather than attempting to airbrush them from history, belittle them and portray them as insignificant bankrupts, the opposite approach should be taken. Watford St. Mary’s need to be given their rightful place alongside West Herts, their history fully explored, given their own Wiki page and the football supporting public told the true story. The present club also need to be told the true story. 1881 can still be celebrated, but celebrated by everyone knowing the true story.
Subject to any fully supported arguments against, may I respectfully suggest that the main article be altered to reflect what I have set out today. In addition, if someone will create a “Watford St. Mary’s Football Club” wiki page, I will begin to populate it - I will need support please. -- Pleatys dance ( talk) 12:50, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
I suggest Nigel Pearson be left as manager for now. There's no official announcement of his sacking by Watford. CrypticAbyss ( talk) 14:19, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
as of 23:48 BST on 25th July 2020, after Nigel Pearson was sacked, the page was changed to show Mickey Mouse as interim manager, with a link to the mickey mouse page, instead of hayden mullins, i wanted to mention this because im not sure it should be there. i have a link here showing the edivence https://gyazo.com/565ce95e58cb3750766e9a0569ca256e -- Jjfmacmanus ( talk) 22:51, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Could someone upload their new kits? The prem starts tomorrow and it still hasn't been updated. 2A02:C7E:1C8F:AE00:FCA2:E6C5:B6C8:C5E5 ( talk) 14:51, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
Someone edited the intro of the article with banter and trash ralk 152.168.101.56 ( talk) 23:07, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
Watford F.C. was one of the Sports and recreation good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||
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Current status: Delisted good article |
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deported mid season 07/08 Quee1797 ( talk) 18:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Reading through the article the only comment I have to make is that 'generally good-natured' is definitely NOT a term I would use to describe our rivalry with Luton Town - 2002 was mild in comparison with some of the problems I have known Watford fans to have experienced in the past, including rock-throwing by some Luton fans at a League tie in the 80s and vandalism to vehicles parked in Luton bearing any signs of a Watford-supporting owner. From participation in message boards in recent years I would suggest that rather than 'good-natured' the rivalry continues to be bitter and fairly vicious at times, particularly from the Luton fans.
It is with great neutrality that I declare that Luton suck :) Wikinista 06:31, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I haven't been able to find references to the FourFourTwo magazine rivalry description on the internet. So I suggest we remove this reference and change the opening line to simply: "Watford fans maintain a strong rivalry with those of Luton Town." HornetEd 13:15, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Whilst Kenny Samson is a former Watford player and is a famous player, I feel that that section should only include Watford players who are team "heroes," so to speak. After all, players like Kenny Jackett are hardly "famous," but are included. The "famous" definition applies to within the Watford fanbase, and thus Samsom shouldn't be there.
I've removed Moralee, as he isn't famous in either sense of the definition. (This was written by me before I was familiar with Wikipedia I've re-arranged it to the point chronologically where it should be, and to tidy up the talk page.) HornetMike 18:47, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Anyone seen Kenny recently....who would know he played football, let alone was good !! (I almost said good enough for England but that doesn't mean much anymore)
Wikinista (
talk) 17:36, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Am I being blind, or is Luthor Blisset not listed?! Surely he should be for several reasons? Swfblade ( talk) 16:33, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Cheers •CHILLDOUBT• 18:27, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Whilst our one was sparse, a lot of club pages do have it. It doesn't exactly do any harm, does it?
Why on earth has someone edited out the records section? And all the catergories stuff and half the managers? I don't know how to get this back, I hope someone else does because I really don't want to have to write it all out again.
Re: other changes. I know the new squad list is now in the official football squad fromat, but it actually now displays less information! What's the point in changing it?
Regarding the Heroes/Famous players section. I agree that if you call them "heroes" you're going POV. But I do feel the way we've got it now ignores huge amounts of notable Watford players just because they're not particularly famous. Maybe if the "heroes" list was restored under a header of "notable Watford players" Bit ambigous though, thoughts?
Whilst I understand that the squad has now been in an official Wiki template, I do feel the old chart (with a little bit of re-organisation) would be far better. Admittedly it's slightly larger, but it contains more information (birthdays - although I'm not researching them unless the consensus on here is good, date of arrival, previous club etc. The positions are slightly less generic as well.) Personally I think it looks better as well.
I thought this would be good:
Thoughts? The only problem I can see is that there's no way of showing Richard Lee's on loan without messing it up a bit. HornetMike 19:12, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
I have been investigating the Wiki - template for football squads. There are some interesting arguments for both formats:
Conventional format's main points
However the chart format (originally borrowed from now removed chat on Liverpool site) provides more information. This is more important with lower league teams, I feel. Whilst Premiership clubs can justifiably create articles for each of their players, containing information on join dates and so forth, it would be ridiculous for players such as Ben Gill to have their own article. Thus the information should be contained. The information in the above chart gives an indication of the average age of the Watford squad, as well as the general source of it's players (i.e. academy and signings from other clubs of our level) and how established the side is (i.e. Lewington's squad would had a series of joined dates quite far in the past. The Boothroyd squad chart shows it to be a recently assembeled squad.)
Furthermore, I don't really understand the need to have a smallish chart. This isn't much bigger and there are bits of the article that are larger anyway. What's the problem? As for keeping the same format across the league, I find this a faintly ridiculous argument. Each football article is entirely different, depending on the amount of work that has been invested in it by fans. Why insist on unifromity for one tiny section but not the rest?
Another interesting point made in favour of the Wiki-format is that "a lot of people invested time in it" So? Just because they invested time in it doesn't mean it's necessarily the right format to use in the circumstances.
I await correspondence from some people before I change it back, of course. HornetMike 18:37, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I think that this table is brilliant. It is much more informative than the current one, and who cares about the size? This really should be the standard table, for Squads and Managers. As for Richard Lee, add a note at the bottom or something, maybe put it in the last column. As I say, I feel it is much better and more informative, and I support putting it in the article. Kingfisherswift 08:59, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I've just started the first part of a new revamp - the Luton rivalry section. Over the next few months I plan to add sections on the club's colours and crests, boost the history section, revamp the notable players section and add more statistics. HornetMike 13:57, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
I've added the notable players section. I've made it as non-POV as possible, focusing on the players achievements with the club. If anyone knows anything about Dennis Uphill, Dennis Bond, Mo Johnston, Steve Terry or Keith Eddy could they please add sections. Also, I know Callaghan had two spells at Watford, and I think the official site lumps them all together as 1980-91. I've put this date in, but if anyone knows the two spells, could you please include them. I also can't find the debut year for Tom Walley.
I'm debating over which players to include from the play-off side. I think Richard Johnson, perhaps, but who else? Kennedy? Smart? Wright? Hyde? Rosenthal (from 97/98, obv)? Are Helguson and Robinson worthy of mention?
In terms of players who didn't make a huge contribution at Watford but did at other clubs, I've included David James and Pat Jennings, but omitted Kevin Phillips, as he only really had one good season with us.
Not sure about Gerry Armstrong - thoughts? HornetMike 03:08, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I've noticed that the managers table has half the months in and half out. Using soccerbase.com (Link at base of page) can somebody assist me in cleaning up the managers for good? Thanks. Kingfisherswift 19:04, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Done, although Soccerbase looks like it has a few errors in that department. I double-check it against Trefor Jones when I get home. HornetMike 19:53, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
HornetMike - while I agree Wikipedia ain't a news service, it might have been productive to edit the changes to be more of a description of what went on in the first leg of the semi. It's unavoidably relevant what happened in it, after all!
Just a thought, as they say. Nmg20 21:24, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi, sorry for not replying sooner, my IP's been blocked because some idiot at the University was vandalising. I removed the reference because I didn't want 2005/06 to revert back what it had previously been - lots of itty-bitty statements about favourite players/good matches all stuck together. I was going to add something after the completion of the tie, but obviously some people are ahead of me! Cheers, HornetMike 18:35, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
No problem - I think it looks pretty good right now - but we'll review in ten days time, eh? :-) Nmg20 22:25, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
O-ho-ho, certainly! HornetMike 23:05, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
"Watford Football Club are an English professional football club based in Watford, Hertfordshire." wouldn't "Watford FC is" be more grammatically correct?
I agree
I don't agree - Although common usage is in both the singular or plural, It is more common and accurate to use a discretionary plural when taking about clubs, particularly in British English.
[1] As it is a British club, it is perhaps even more appropriate to use the plural.
•CHILLDOUBT• 22:26, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Is Watford F.C. a publically traded company and if so what is thier ticker symbol. Thank you. John R G 17:30, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Watford's a PLC, yeah. No idea what the ticker symbol is, sorry. I don't know much about shares, unfortunately. One place to look is any portfolio of Michael Ashcroft, if they're available. HornetMike 20:36, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I found the ticker symbol and added it to the main page. John R G 07:00, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Is he still a Watford player I thought he retired at the end of last (05-06) season. Kingjamie 15:21, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I think I remember hearing that Elton John bought a football club for a pound. I know know that he was owner of Watford, but did he pay a pound for them as I remember??
Added Mo :-)
This section is quit long and would perhaps be better suited to a separate article, with only the players' names listed here, alongside See main article... Fedgin | Talk 10:46, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi all who keep this excellent page up to date, very good work.
In the last week I've been attempting to add our own "External link" which is a 100% Watford FC related forum called WFCForums, (www.wfcforums.com). It's run for free and has no advertising of any type on the pages. It's 100% non profit making but run entirely for the benefit of the Watford supporting community, take a look if you need proof. Unfortunately this link keeps being removed by HornetMike with the reason being, "not a link farm".
The heading is "External Links", WFCForums is a 100% Watford FC related external link, so can someone please explain why it keeps being removed? As already explained, we're not making money but just providing a valuable service and information point for Watford supporters worldwide. The one link for an unofficial Watford FC page you do have is now unsupported and out of date.
If this would be better discussed in private please drop me an e-mail: admin AT wfcforums.com
Many Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.18.78.6 ( talk • contribs)
Hello, I'm the chap who's been removing the wfcforums link from the article. I know it looks a bit malicious and anal, sorry about that. I'm following the Wikipedia policy on external links, which can be found here: WP:EL The criteria there pretty much excludes wfcforums from being included there. Believe me, it's nothing personal - I've had to remove GloryHorns and various other blogs/forums from there in the past. Hope you understand, HornetMike 14:05, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
WP:EL says"Adding external links can be a service to our readers, but they should be kept to a minimum of those that are meritable, accessible and appropriate to the article." As www.wfcforums.com is accessible and appropriate, im not sure what problems you can see HornetMike. The site as explained is watford fc forums, it is beneficial to most, and causes no harm to anyone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Albangura9 ( talk • contribs)
It's not appropriate though. I feel you mis-interpreted the policy from reading the nutshell piece. I refer you to:
"Who Made the Nazi's?" Mark E Smith Wikinista ( talk) 17:38, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Looking at the notable players section and seeing Marlon King and Ashley Young there, I am wondering if Tommy Smith should be added: 2 spells and over 150 appearances, that seems enough for me, but I'd like a general consensus. Cheers, к1иgf1$н£я5ω1fт 15:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Image:Watford2.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 04:36, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
For a club founded in 1881, it seems odd that the History section only starts in 1977. Did nothing of merit happen in the first 95 years? Daemonic Kangaroo 08:39, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Some would question since :-)
Wikinista (
talk) 17:39, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Image:Watford crest.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 20:29, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
I have created a stub article on Hertfordshire Rangers F.C. who appear to be one of the fore-runners of Watford F.C., but I am a bit confused about their history. Unfortunately the Watford F.C. article says little about the very early history. My searches on the web have come up with several very different versions.
Here it says "Formed around 1865, Rangers featured in the FA Cup between 1875 and 1881. In 1898 they merged with Watford St Peters to form the modern Watford FC.", which was the basis for my initial article.
Here, however, it says "In December 1870, the Watford Observer carried a report on Hertfordshire Rangers - the forerunners of Watford Rovers. Watford Rovers was formed by a group of lads in 1881 who had been given permission by the Earl of Essex to kick a football around in Cassiobury Park. In 1882, home games began in Vicarage Meadow and a year later, the club's name was changed to West Herts. In 1898, a rival club, Watford St Mary's, was absorbed by West Herts and the name 'Watford' was formally adopted."
Version 3 says "The club takes the year of its formation as 1881 when Watford Rovers was formed. This club amalgamated in 1890 with West Hertfordshire Rangers, believed to have been formed in 1865. In 1896, the club joined the Southern League Second Division, turning professional the following year. For a period the town boasted two professional clubs but it quickly became clear that this was not sustainable and in 1898, West Herts Rangers and Watford St Mary’s FC merged to form Watford FC."
Finally, we have "They were formed in 1881 as Watford Rovers. They later merged with Hertfordshire Rangers and Watford St Mary’s to become Watford FC."
Unfortunately, the history section of the club's own website is "under construction" so is of no help at all at present. Can someone clarify the position and perhaps include a brief summary of the early history in the Watford article, and correct any errors in the Herts Rangers page. Cheers. -- Daemonic Kangaroo ( talk) 11:08, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
There appears to be an edit war starting with regards to the survey that shows that Watford's second rivals are QPR. So I thought maybe we could canvas opinion of whether this nugget of information should be included. Perhaps giving away my opinion on the subject, I'd like to make three points:
Whilst I am an avid reader of this site, it's a blog/message board and contains no factual information, so should this be included in a Wikipedia page? WW9066 ( talk) 13:53, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm trying to get this article up to GA status (maybe even FA, but that's a heck of a long shot....), but currently there's only one sentence about his time at Vicarage Road, and I don't know what else might need adding. Surely there must be something else to say about a five year stint at a club one division below the top flight? Any thoughts.........? ChrisTheDude ( talk) 12:14, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
I've started drafting a list of Watford F.C. managers in my sandbox. It's very much in the early stages, but if anyone would like to lend a hand, that would be grand. Also, can anyone recommend any sources for this, either printed or online? Thanks. Seegoon ( talk) 13:15, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm working on a couple of side-articles at the moment (managers, current season, players of the year). I want to do players as well but I don't have a proper reference for them, so that might have to wait. Anyway, after I'm up to date on recent season articles it will be easier to brutally trim the history, so at that point I was planning on taking this article itself on, with the aim of making it a Featured Article.
My opinion is that we should list the hall of fame inductees in a table (Luther Blissett, John McClelland, Les Taylor, David James, Ian Bolton, Tommy Mooney and Tony Coton), with a sentence or so about each of them, and have the rest of them listed like they have done here, with criteria similar to the ones we currently have. I think that anything about the individuals which is so important that it must stay on this page could be incorporated into the history, otherwise it can go in their articles.
Just wondering if people had any other opinions about things that could be done to improve the article as a whole, or if anyone has any alternative ideas? WFCforLife ( talk) 15:33, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
I would state that the League Cup is a major honour, it's entered by the best teams at the time. The lower division titles are not major honours, because winning the Championship is coming 21st in the football league. HornetEd ( talk) 16:30, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
The article's coming along quite nicely. My main concerns are with the sources:
There probably are a few more, but those are the ones that spring to mind. WFCforLife ( talk) 12:17, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
A discussion is being held here on the possibility of rolling out a new squad template. The new template, named {{ football squad player2}}, differs from the standard squad layout in several ways:
It is proposed that the new template be added to some of Wikipedia's most high-profile club articles, which might include Watford F.C.. To give your thoughts, please read and contribute to the discussion at WikiProject Football.
Regards, Edinburgh Wanderer 19:43, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Mainly directed at WFC, but by all means to anyone else prepared to get stuck into getting the article to GA status (note, all are mere suggestions, some probably go beyond what a GA needs, but all are meant to be helpful!):
The Rambling Man ( talk) 16:51, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Casliber ( talk · contribs) 10:40, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi - I'll make copyedits as I go (please revert if I inadvertently change the meaning) and jot queries below: Casliber ( talk · contribs) 10:40, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Other than that, looking pretty good. Casliber ( talk · contribs) 00:33, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
1. Well written?:
2. Factually accurate and verifiable?:
3. Broad in coverage?:
4. Reflects a neutral point of view?:
5. Reasonably stable?
6. Illustrated by images, when possible and appropriate?:
Overall:
Not really familiar with the club but the full name "Watford Association Football Club" doesn't appear in the article. Given it doesn't seem to be used anywhere except legal records, is there some sort of history behind the name? Hack ( talk) 01:05, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
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Jack Petchey owned and ran the club from 1987 to 1994 and his name isn't mentioned on the article once. Talk about a major hole in the article, I think this needs to be addressed. Govvy ( talk) 11:57, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
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A date is incorrect. In "Early Years" second paragraph, 6th line. The date of the Watford Observer should change from - "28th May 1898 to 7th May 1898".The source is http://thestrawplaiters.com/rivalry-the/ Pleatys dance ( talk) 09:22, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
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Change 1898 to 1881
The club was founded in 1881 - not as stated in this line 'Founded in 1898 by the amalgamation of West Herts and Watford St. Mary's.'<ref><ref>
http://www.watfordfcarchive.com/
Namorrodor (
talk) 12:46, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
The Watford FC page is missing Juan Camilo Hernandez (Cucho Hernandez) as a player out on loan. His own page is correct and states that he is indeed owned by Watford and out on loan at Huesca Davey79c ( talk) 14:46, 4 March 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davey79c ( talk • contribs) 11:22, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
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The Watford FC page is missing Juan Camilo Hernandez (Cucho Hernandez) as a player out on loan. His own page is correct and states that he is indeed owned by Watford and out on loan at Huesca Davey79c ( talk) 15:39, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
@ BigBoi233 and Pleatys dance: please discuss the issue here rather than reverting each other's edits back & forth. Giant Snowman 08:32, 12 June 2019 (UTC) The 1881 date is incorrect. The Watford Observer of the 7th May 1898 clearly shows that two local clubs amalgamated to form a new club - “When three-parts of the season was gone, there were whispers of the advantages of amalgamation of the two clubs. That the principle was right few disputed, and the question narrowed itself down to a few minor difficulties. It was ascertained that the executive on both sides regarded the suggestion favourably, and joint meetings of the officials were arranged. The proposals took a definite shape, and very soon amalgamation was a thing accomplished. It was decided, however, that each club should finish off its fixtures. Next season the Watford club will play on the Cassio-Road ground, and one of the chief ideas of the amalgamation is to have a second team of sufficient strength to be an attraction while the first string is engaged elsewhere. The details of the amalgamation scheme we have already given in these columns. Generally speaking, then, the local football season which has just closed has been a most important one. It has witnessed two steps which have marked fresh epochs - the adoption of professionalism and the amalgamation of West Herts and Watford St. Mary’s.”
The full F.A. council met in May 1898 and as reported at the time “permission was given to Watford St. Mary’s and West Herts to take the name of Watford Football Club , the two clubs having amalgamated.” The F.A. would clearly have been asked to make this decision and would have wanted the requisite evidence and approval from both clubs officials before putting the matter before the full council.
So directly from May 1898 you have evidence that the two sets of officials met, negotiated and agreed amalgamation which the F.A. approved and the Watford Observer reported. Regrettably, the word "amalgamation" has been replaced by the word "absorption" by those close to the club. This gives the impression that West Herts absorbed Watford St. Mary's. They did not. This wrongful replacement of the word "amalgamation" was done with the intention of making West Herts history go back to 1891 and then back to 1881 when their predecessors, Watford Rovers, are said to be formed. The suggestion has also been made that Watford St. Mary's went bust. They did not. They folded because of the amalgamation with West Herts. Here it is important to note that West Herts full title was "West Herts Club and Ground" - it was a sports club which also had teams playing rugby, cricket, lacrosse and so on. West Herts therefore did not fold as Watford St. Mary's did. The insult to the memory of the men of Watford St. Mary's is therefore a great one - 5 of their players played for the new club of Watford F.C. including the first black player, John Cother. -- Pleatys dance ( talk) 09:04, 12 June 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pleatys dance ( talk • contribs) 08:57, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
Watford Fc as we know them today started in 1898 yes but Watford true founding date is 1881 the club has stated this on its website and even have the 1881 foundation club it is annoying many true Watford supporters that someone is changing the date on Wikipedia please address this
Watford Fc 1881 BigBoi233 ( talk) 10:45, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
You don't dispute any of the facts I posted about 1898. You just make a plea to ignore the facts! What about Watford St. Mary's history? Are they to be swept aside in order to justify the 1881 date? Why not enlighten Watford supporters of the true history and celebrate Watford St. Mary's as well as West Herts, Watford Rovers and football generally in Watford. I can help you with some history on Watford St. Mary's if you want to create a wiki page for them and give them their rightful place in history. -- Pleatys dance ( talk) 11:03, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
The point is that the official books are incorrect as per the facts I set out above - Watford St. Mary's amalgamated with West Herts in 1898 to form Watford F.C.. I agree the article needs improving as it must show the part Watford St. Mary's played and they should preferably have their own wiki page. -- Pleatys dance ( talk) 11:42, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
I was asked to discuss 1898 and 1881 with BigBoi233. I have already set out the facts (above) but will do so again as you appear to have missed them. "The Watford Observer of the 7th May 1898 clearly shows that two local clubs amalgamated to form a new club - “When three-parts of the season was gone, there were whispers of the advantages of amalgamation of the two clubs. That the principle was right few disputed, and the question narrowed itself down to a few minor difficulties. It was ascertained that the executive on both sides regarded the suggestion favourably, and joint meetings of the officials were arranged. The proposals took a definite shape, and very soon amalgamation was a thing accomplished. It was decided, however, that each club should finish off its fixtures. Next season the Watford club will play on the Cassio-Road ground, and one of the chief ideas of the amalgamation is to have a second team of sufficient strength to be an attraction while the first string is engaged elsewhere. The details of the amalgamation scheme we have already given in these columns. Generally speaking, then, the local football season which has just closed has been a most important one. It has witnessed two steps which have marked fresh epochs - the adoption of professionalism and the amalgamation of West Herts and Watford St. Mary’s.”
The full F.A. council met in May 1898 and as reported at the time “permission was given to Watford St. Mary’s and West Herts to take the name of Watford Football Club , the two clubs having amalgamated.” The F.A. would clearly have been asked to make this decision and would have wanted the requisite evidence and approval from both clubs officials before putting the matter before the full council.
So directly from May 1898 you have evidence that the two sets of officials met, negotiated and agreed amalgamation which the F.A. approved and the Watford Observer reported. Regrettably, the word "amalgamation" has been replaced by the word "absorption" by those close to the club. This gives the impression that West Herts absorbed Watford St. Mary's. They did not. This wrongful replacement of the word "amalgamation" was done with the intention of making West Herts history go back to 1891 and then back to 1881 when their predecessors, Watford Rovers, are said to be formed. The suggestion has also been made that Watford St. Mary's went bust. They did not. They folded because of the amalgamation with West Herts. Here it is important to note that West Herts full title was "West Herts Club and Ground" - it was a sports club which also had teams playing rugby, cricket, lacrosse and so on. West Herts therefore did not fold as Watford St. Mary's did. The insult to the memory of the men of Watford St. Mary's is therefore a great one - 5 of their players played for the new club of Watford F.C. including the first black player, John Cother." Do you not think that Watford St. Mary's true history should be told? -- Pleatys dance ( talk) 11:57, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
With respect, the Watford Observer of the 7th May 1898 is a valid source - I have added the citation (13) referring to the relevant copy of the paper on the British Newspaper Archive. I apologise if I have not added it correctly. It is a source that was clearly missed by the author of the book you refer to (which I have read). I thought myself and BigBoi233 were going to discuss this issue and come to an agreement. I am trying to help clarify how the club was formed. Books must be challenged as copy and paste, lazy journalism and incomplete research have always been around (that is not intended as an insult - I have a football history website so come across this alot). I am making that challenge and have had no arguments in return. What else should I do as I don't want to breach policy. -- Pleatys dance ( talk) 12:28, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
I don't think strange foundation dates are necessarily a result of bad research, I can't believe someone like Trefor Jones didn't know about the article in the Watford Observer. Until somewhere in the 1990's there are different versions of the early history of Watford. Formed after the amalgamation of West Herts and Watford St. Mary's in 1898, founded in 1891 (...used to be in Rothmans, copied year after year) as Watford Rovers. Trefor Jones used the word absorbed in his books published in the 1990's. Why he did this I don't know, the answer is not in the books. The answer could be hidden somewhere in the history after 1898. I don't have more recent books.
In 1991 SVV and Dordrecht' 90 merged to form a new club SVV/Dordrecht'90. Initially everybody regarded this as a new club, founded in 1991. SVV (Schiedam) played in the Eredivisie, they had a decent squad, an ambitious chairman willing to invest, but no stadium and not much support. Dordrecht '90 had a stadium, an ambitious chairman and they played in the Eerste Divisie. In the 1991/92 season SVV/Dordrecht played in the Eredivisie. A large part of the squad used to play for SVV, chairman was Cees den Braven (Dordrecht). The former SVV chairman couldn't get with Den Baven and left the new club after one year, and I doubt there where many former SVV supporters, who travelled to Dordrecht to see the new club. After a year SVV was no longer part of the name of the club, and Dordrecht became like the club they were before the merger, but they don't deny that the merger never happened. The current club FC Dordrecht was founded in 1883 as D.F.C. If you find the foundation date 1 July 1972, and you can. That was when the club first got its current name. Is this unfair to the history of the SVV club, maybe it is ,but SVV still has a rich history of its own. There are similar cases where the date of the foundation is the date of the merger, but there are plenty of cases were the date of foundation after the merger is the date of foundation of the earliest forerunner. Whatever you choose, there is always a similar precedent. It would be nice, if there had been universal rules dealing with these things, but they simply don't exist. (I was never a Dordrecht or SVV supporter.) Cattivi ( talk) 12:52, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
The Watford Observer piece is a primary source written in May 1898 by the Sports Editor of the paper. Victorian Sports Editors were usually players or ex players who were heavily involved in sports in the town where they worked and some were on football club committees. The editor would have known all the major figures involved at the West Herts Club and Ground and Watford St. Mary’s. Books written in the 1990’s are secondary sources - they should have relied on primary sources written as close to the event as possible. There are numerous mentions of the amalgamation in the newspapers of April and May 1898 and indeed later in that year. I agree that the insertion of the word “absorption” to replace amalgamation is a mystery. It may have been used (incorrectly) at a later date as a quick explanation as to how the club was formed. West Herts appear to have seen themselves as the senior club so their supporters may have used “absorption” as a nod to their past. However, the primary May 1898 source from someone close to the events (and indeed the F.A. full committee approval of the amalgamation and the adoption of the name of the new club, Watford F.C.), trumps any secondary sources that comes later.
I am familiar with the Stoke City arguments. The view also exists that Stoke City were formed in 1908. The original club - Stoke Ramblers/ Stoke went bankrupt in 1908, withdrew from the Football League, all the players left and the committee disbanded. The newspapers of the time clearly state that a completely new organisation was formed later in the Summer. That new club started off in the Birmingham League. Yet today, Stoke City have 1863 on their badge. 1863 was the year that the first newspaper report of football being played in Stoke was published - played on Shrove Tuesday, not a recognised football match and no club is mentioned or known to have existed. Their wiki page has 1863 and 1868 as their date of formation - 1908 is ignored by most. I know from their forum that Stoke fans today do not accept 1863 yet it is firmly embedded in the club’s fabric and shows no sign of shifting.
Returning to the point, I think it is important is to recognise the men of Watford St. Mary’s who have largely been ignored. Why just follow West Herts/Watford Rovers back to 1881 and ignore Watford St. Mary’s? They should have their own wiki page (which I have already volunteered to help with) and their full story told. For instance, John Cother, Watford F.C.’s first black player, played for Watford St. Mary’s yet this is largely ignored. The club also reached the final of the Herts County Cup in 1895 and still attracted significant crowds in the 1897/98 season so they deserve recognition. Similar to Stoke City, there are Watford fans who stand firmly behind 1898 and ignore 1881 entirely. -- Pleatys dance ( talk) 14:54, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
I see that Tom Brodrick has side stepped this discussion and amended the foundation date in the article to include 1881 because the club recognises that date. I invite Tom to join in this discussion. His comments actually help seal the argument for 1898. Tom makes two points. The first is the recognition by the club of the 1881 date. The club can only make a decision based on what it is told by its historian. In that respect, Tom refers to the “Watford Archives” ((WA) and kindly provides a link (citation 13) to the relevant page. The WA, a secondary source, states when talking about West Herts -
“There was talk of an amalgamation with local rivals Watford St Mary’s, but nothing came of it. St Mary’s became defunct in 1898, and their registered players immediately became free agents. Five of them were signed by Watford FC as players. Neither those players, nor the officials under which they had played for St Mary’s, had any administrative function in the affairs of Watford FC.”
This is incorrect - the WA has completely missed the primary source of the Watford Observer report of the 7th May 1898 (citation 15) on the amalgamation of the two clubs on the 15th April 1898 and the approval by the full council of the F.A. on the 27th May 1898 - the full details of the amalgamation have already been set out by me elsewhere in this discussion and remain in the main article. If the modern club were not told of the 1898 amalgamation then it is not surprising that it chose to accept the 1881 date.
The second point is in respect of Watford St. Mary’s, where Tom Brodrick states -
“the degree to which the latter remained an extant organisation capable of being involved in a formal amalgamation is disputed by football historians.”
This statement appears to be based on the WA chronology (a secondary source) for 1898, which states -
“When rival club Watford St. Mary’s folds West Herts’ name is changed, for the last time, to Watford.”
As I have already stated in this discussion, West Herts Club and Ground were a sports club. Besides Association Football, the club also played other sports including cricket, rugby and lacrosse. When the amalgamation came in 1898, the West Herts Club and Ground continued to exist to support the other sports. Watford St. Mary’s however, were solely a football club. Therefore, when the amalgamation came with West Herts in 1898, Watford St. Mary’s had to be wound up. As the WA missed the amalgamation entirely, it is little surprise that the winding up of Watford St. Mary’s has been misinterpreted.
The persistent unfounded attack on the Watford St. Mary’s club is puzzling as is the reliance on secondary sources and an apparent unwillingness to accept primary sources or to properly research the subject. I will therefore set out the remainder of the relevant points which should be made widely known.
The amalgamation agreement in April 1898 had to be approved by the Annual General Meeting of the West Herts Club and Ground. I will quote the Club Secretary’s address to that meeting, taken from page 7 of the Herts Advertiser of the 13th August 1898 -
“Now as to the future. You will doubtless all agree that a very judicious step was taken in arranging an amalgamation with the Watford St. Mary’s Club. It was felt that Watford was not large enough to support two professional teams, and the St. Mary’s committee were of the opinion that the West Herts ground should be the centre of Watford football, and a very fair and amicable arrangement was made. When it is considered that even when a good gate was obtained on the West Herts ground there were 400 or 500 spectators on the Watford St. Mary’s ground, it is apparent to what extent we may look for an increased gate. In addition to this, we are glad to say that the St. Mary’s players have loyally come to our assistance and we shall be able to form two teams of almost equal strength, and having arranged strong home fixtures for every Saturday during the season, we shall be able to command a good gate when our League team is away.”
What stands out of this report is that - “the St. Mary’s committee were of the opinion that the West Herts ground should be the centre of Watford football”. It was the Watford St. Mary’s committee who saw the reality that the town could not support two professional clubs and had the foresight to put Watford football first. Their players did not become free agents as claimed by the WA - they “loyally” rallied to the cause of football in Watford. The club did not fold for financial reasons and were not absorbed by West Herts.
A great debt is owed to Watford St. Mary’s. Rather than attempting to airbrush them from history, belittle them and portray them as insignificant bankrupts, the opposite approach should be taken. Watford St. Mary’s need to be given their rightful place alongside West Herts, their history fully explored, given their own Wiki page and the football supporting public told the true story. The present club also need to be told the true story. 1881 can still be celebrated, but celebrated by everyone knowing the true story.
Subject to any fully supported arguments against, may I respectfully suggest that the main article be altered to reflect what I have set out today. In addition, if someone will create a “Watford St. Mary’s Football Club” wiki page, I will begin to populate it - I will need support please. -- Pleatys dance ( talk) 12:50, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
I suggest Nigel Pearson be left as manager for now. There's no official announcement of his sacking by Watford. CrypticAbyss ( talk) 14:19, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
as of 23:48 BST on 25th July 2020, after Nigel Pearson was sacked, the page was changed to show Mickey Mouse as interim manager, with a link to the mickey mouse page, instead of hayden mullins, i wanted to mention this because im not sure it should be there. i have a link here showing the edivence https://gyazo.com/565ce95e58cb3750766e9a0569ca256e -- Jjfmacmanus ( talk) 22:51, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Could someone upload their new kits? The prem starts tomorrow and it still hasn't been updated. 2A02:C7E:1C8F:AE00:FCA2:E6C5:B6C8:C5E5 ( talk) 14:51, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
Someone edited the intro of the article with banter and trash ralk 152.168.101.56 ( talk) 23:07, 10 May 2022 (UTC)