![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Emm... there's no real reason to have them in bold and italics is there? Also, the train station is within Waterford City's boundry. http://maps.live.com/ shows the correct borders. JimGreeid ( talk) 00:35, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
The map is a little strange. It doesn't show whereabout in Ireland Waterford City is to anyone who doesn't already know. And what do the green and white shapes in the inset mean? -- Picapica 21:01, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The crime section on this article is an absolute disgrace and I will be highlighting it to the national media in Ireland... to single out individual families in an encyclopedia article is an absolute disgrace. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.120.116.180 ( talk) 23:42, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I cannot believe the statements in the crime section... I mean the first sentence is pretty OK but things like "Nevertheless, there has been significant disquiet in recent years over anti-social behaviour and violent assaults." and "Other murders occurred in 2007 with the most prominent being when a 21 year old male was stabbed to death." These are obvious attacks on Waterford's reputation and I would seriously question the legitimacy of any encyclopedia article that singles out families like this. The language "other muders occurred in 2007" is very suggestive and makes out like there were several murders. This is an absolute disgrace and shambles. I've notified the local press. It's an outrage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ciandfoley ( talk • contribs) 23:59, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I think that some of the figures quoted for the non-city area are little better than pseudoscience and should not be incuded unless an authoritive source can be quoted hear. It is the usual agenda that wants to make something look more important than it really is - I have consulted the census (briefly) and can find no clear possible source other than guess work of some figures. Djegan 21:06, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Jesus did you swallow a dictionary?
All the figures on the page have been taken from the CSO website and are correct. Although, arguably, the population figures for Waterford Rural Areas 1 & 2 are of limited applicability. Personally I would prefer the city + suburbs figure to be used as the primary measure of population for Irish cities, because the City Council population figures are as arbitrary as the city boundaries themselves. (maybe this fight has been fought elsewhere)
Waterford is unusual in that, unlike Limerick and Galway, it has a relatively large centre very close by and a number of coastal villages that are, for most intents and purposes, part of Waterford city, although could not be considered part of the conurbation. Tramore, with a population of over 8,000, is essentially an extension of Waterford city, for example. Dunmore has a population of 1,500 and then there are Passage East and Cheekpoint, etc. That's a good 10,000 people who live in towns and villages within 8 miles of Waterford city, in addition to the dense rural population that you would also have around Limerick or Galway.
The point is that the real Waterford is a more distributed entity than it would otherwise appear to an external observer.
Please discuss before you move this page. Djegan 21:07, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Jdorney - we meet again. I added a paragraph on this topic, because it leads to the 1603 incident, the first in a sequence in the Irish city-states, which culminates with the battles after the Glorious Revolution. Also, is it correct to use the term British in the following para? shtove 20:59, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
I think there is a lot of history, but this should be balanced by more about Waterford today - culture, sport, business, tourism, employment, research, etc.
Also, I agree with the comment about the map, it could be better and clearer.
I agree with this. Also, why is the proper Waterford City Council crest not used?
There is an official Waterford City Council crest, which has remained unchanged since the 1950's iirc. There is a an authority for heraldry in Ireland, and I'm sure this crest is registered and sanctioned by them. It seems to be true that you have to get permission from the city council to use the crest, but it might be worth doing so.
I don't know how you could say that the crest is not such a good image when the existing image on the site is so poor and hardly bears any resemblance to any Waterford city crest, past or present. Personally I think that the actual crest is quite visually appealing.
Every city has a proper heraldic crest, and now, it seems, a flashy corporate logo. I am obviously talking about using the crest, not the logo. I'm guessing that the only reason the logos have come in to existence is that the legal basis for copyrighting heraldic crests is not solid. Merlante
I understand that the city and the council are different, but the crest refers as much to the city as to the council, imho. Once again I am not talking about the new Second-river-crossing-style logo, but the crest as has been popularly depicted in the 20th century. Perhaps there are an unlimited amount of images that would fit the heraldic description, but there really are only a few variations that people immediately identify with. The city crest on the council site is probably the most recognisable, probably followed by a crest similar to what the GAA used for a while: basically just the three ships on blue waters. I think that a good quality image of any of these would make a good replacement. I'll get around to looking for one eventually if nobody gets there first. Merlante
I added this section a while ago. I have only put people in there that were actually born in Waterford City, as opposed to County, or somewhere else. Currently, the only exception to this is Peter O'Connor. He was born in Ashford, Co. Wicklow, however, he lived in many places over the course of his childhood, none of which he seemed to have spent much time in, and none of which "claim him" as their own. The one place he did settle was Waterford, and he lived there for most of his life. In contrast, I did not include Ignatious Rice because, although he lived most of his life in Waterford, he comes from Kilkenny, where his family was well established, and he is recognised generally as a Kilkenny man.
-- Jmccormac 18:54, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I would argue Edmund Rice should be added here as he chose to die in his home, Waterford, and his bones rest in the city too and given the historic significance of Mount Sion it is surely worth adding. I would also say he could also be the key to Kilkenny Waterford relationship moving forward.
I'm going to cut this section down, as all the information is in the main article and the space it takes up here is disproportionate. Jdorney 14:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Question: the history section claims Waterford to have been founded in 914 and "thus being Ireland's oldest city". If you wikisearch the history of dublin or limerick, the former is said to have been founded in 841 and the latter in 812. Something is wrong - it can't be the oldest city if its younger than another by almost 100 years, can it?
13:03, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
According to this link: http://dedanaan.com/untilled-fields-of-irish-history/a-celtic-chronology/8/ Waterford was "founded" in 830, but the claim is that it is Ireland's oldest city, meaning that in 914 when it actually became a city, it was Ireland's first... I think. Hope this helps somewhat anyway. JimGreeid ( talk) 05:11, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately it appears content (irrespective of quality) is now determined by straw votes, see Talk:Cities in Ireland. Comments welcome. Djegan 19:29, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I just finished a major revamp of the Waterford article. I did it because I think that the old article was very poor, particularly the 'Today' section, and also because I think that the lack of headings led people to adding in bits of information in random places, and prevented others from going at it at all.
What I did was re-write the pre-amble completely and ditch the 'Today' section in favour of lots of headings.
It is far from perfect, I know. There must be a lot of small mistakes and so on, but I'm done working on it for tonight, and I think the changes had to be made. Merlante 00:46, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I see there has been a bit of an edit spat about adding links to Waterford websites. Could we please discuss this without trying to overrule each other?
Personally, I don't think that an 'Internet' sub-section' fits in with 'Media' section. What is there at the moment is a listing of established media sources that serve the city. The Waterford discussion forums are not media sources in this sense, and are there for entertainment rather than to provide conventional journalism. Perhaps a link in an 'Entertainment' section to an article called 'Waterford on the Internet' might be the way to go here. The Waterford city article probably shouldn't get that much bigger as it is, and plenty of important sections, such as 'Sport' and an enlarged 'Politics' section have yet to be added. I would urge people to comment here.
Merlante
12:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a links directory. The way that upthedeise.com and ciddytours.com were being added was quite blatent linkspamming and website promotion. A while ago, there was linkspam leading to sites that were .com variations of the official Waterford websites. These links were owned by upthedeise.com. If there is to be an 'Internet' section then it should be about internet access (what kind of internet access is available such as ADSL/Wireless/ISDN/Dialup etc).--
Jmccormac
15:04, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I have added a media section with waterford related media, wlr, news and star and waterford today, like the Galway wikipedia entry. I have added upthedeise.com to this section as it is a media source, there are articles on waterford writers. I think this is a valid case for a link to upthedeise.com as it is a media source for hundreds of Waterford people. Scratch that I see Jmccormack removed it and put in the Munster Express (invalidly) I will clean up the square bracket.
Read the policy doc and UTD is actually a media source with regular articles, photos, songs etc., it just so happens there is a board element on upthdeise.org which I have not attempted to link to to. In fact some of the media on this site has come from UTD e.g. slang, waterford logo etc. I think that warrants a link, it is not to promote the website but to provide waterford information seekers with a site containing lots of facts about waterford. Anyone who denies that UTD is an info source for waterfordians is not speaking the truth. If you want to quote some facts from the site it may make the decision to keep the link easier for you. CF.
I don't think it matters whether UTD is more than just a message board or not, we can't get into the business of listing all sites that could by some definition qualify as a media source. And it would have to be all or none. This is as much a question of scope as of anything else, we could exhaustively name all of the businesses of the IDA industrial estate if we wanted to just to give information, but that would make for a pretty poor article. The article has a finite length, and shouldn't be too long, so we have to focus only on the most pertinent facts. So to summarise, in my opinion it would be incorrect to list UTD on its own, since that's plain advertising, and also incorrect to exhaustively list all Waterford websites, since wikipedia articles are not portals, and aesthetically it would look very poor. I suspect there are guidelines somewhere that say this, which I will endeavour to find. Merlante 01:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
P.s. I am well aware that I am slightly biased ;) 159.134.148.246 01:07, 16 March 2007 (UTC)CF
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/75.6.248.86
I've relinked them pending discussion here. They'll probably be unlinked again by another UTD fanatic.
--
Jmccormac
00:16, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that Reginald was the founder of the city as claimed in the section in Reginald's tower at the top of the article. Has anyone got a source on this? Some of the stuff from Downey's 'History Of Waterford' (The book was published in 1914 and does not have an ISBN) might be worth referencing either in this article or the article on the history of the city. Apparently Reginald's Tower predates the Tower of London and is one of the oldest buildings of its type still standing in these islands.-- Jmccormac 19:50, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I see that this article has been assessed as 'Start' class (see assessment box at the top of the page). I think this assessment is a bit unfair. I think 'B' class would be a fairer reflection. In any case, what say a few of us get together and try to improve the article systematically. Perhaps we could create some sort of project page and list targets on it. Here are some things that I think the article could benefit from off the bat:
Thoughts? Merlante 20:49, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
# That would be a good idea.
# Politics is big now because of the recent election but will be less important later.
# There should be some on the city council website.
# Maybe but the city walls would be the only big part.
# You can't include everything.
# Again a list should be on the city council website that may help.
Tonyf12 16:46, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
It might be glaringly obvious to us that the Colloquialisms section has its reference - the Dictionary of Waterford Slang book in the additional reading list. However that has not stopped two people from deleting the section. I have restored the section and put an explanation, in simple terms, for these non-Waterfordians.-- Jmccormac 07:31, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I took the opportunity while removing some vandalism to delete this section but it was restored quickly. This section is breaking all the rules about verifiability (leaving aside my view that it is ruining any chance Waterford has of developing to GA status). I have tagged the section, do not remove the tag without discussion. ( Sarah777 ( talk) 11:51, 23 December 2007 (UTC))
As per the above discussion I have moved the Colloquialisms to a separate page, listed in the See Also section, and have condensed the cinema section. Ferdia O'Brien (T)/ (C) 11:53, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
As I expected, the Waterford Colloquialisms are already up for deletion. Ferdia O'Brien (T)/ (C) 13:20, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
In relation to my recent edits on the media section I would like to remind jmccormac that he does not own this page. I don't see any problem with listing prices and editors of the local papers, in fact surely this is information that many people would want to know about any local paper. This is not advertising, and I am not connected to any media source in any way. If anyone thinks that I am wrong in my views, make me aware of it instead of changing interesting details just to feed your own ego. Donut216 ( talk) 17:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Emm... there's no real reason to have them in bold and italics is there? Also, the train station is within Waterford City's boundry. http://maps.live.com/ shows the correct borders. JimGreeid ( talk) 00:35, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
The map is a little strange. It doesn't show whereabout in Ireland Waterford City is to anyone who doesn't already know. And what do the green and white shapes in the inset mean? -- Picapica 21:01, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The crime section on this article is an absolute disgrace and I will be highlighting it to the national media in Ireland... to single out individual families in an encyclopedia article is an absolute disgrace. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.120.116.180 ( talk) 23:42, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I cannot believe the statements in the crime section... I mean the first sentence is pretty OK but things like "Nevertheless, there has been significant disquiet in recent years over anti-social behaviour and violent assaults." and "Other murders occurred in 2007 with the most prominent being when a 21 year old male was stabbed to death." These are obvious attacks on Waterford's reputation and I would seriously question the legitimacy of any encyclopedia article that singles out families like this. The language "other muders occurred in 2007" is very suggestive and makes out like there were several murders. This is an absolute disgrace and shambles. I've notified the local press. It's an outrage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ciandfoley ( talk • contribs) 23:59, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I think that some of the figures quoted for the non-city area are little better than pseudoscience and should not be incuded unless an authoritive source can be quoted hear. It is the usual agenda that wants to make something look more important than it really is - I have consulted the census (briefly) and can find no clear possible source other than guess work of some figures. Djegan 21:06, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Jesus did you swallow a dictionary?
All the figures on the page have been taken from the CSO website and are correct. Although, arguably, the population figures for Waterford Rural Areas 1 & 2 are of limited applicability. Personally I would prefer the city + suburbs figure to be used as the primary measure of population for Irish cities, because the City Council population figures are as arbitrary as the city boundaries themselves. (maybe this fight has been fought elsewhere)
Waterford is unusual in that, unlike Limerick and Galway, it has a relatively large centre very close by and a number of coastal villages that are, for most intents and purposes, part of Waterford city, although could not be considered part of the conurbation. Tramore, with a population of over 8,000, is essentially an extension of Waterford city, for example. Dunmore has a population of 1,500 and then there are Passage East and Cheekpoint, etc. That's a good 10,000 people who live in towns and villages within 8 miles of Waterford city, in addition to the dense rural population that you would also have around Limerick or Galway.
The point is that the real Waterford is a more distributed entity than it would otherwise appear to an external observer.
Please discuss before you move this page. Djegan 21:07, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Jdorney - we meet again. I added a paragraph on this topic, because it leads to the 1603 incident, the first in a sequence in the Irish city-states, which culminates with the battles after the Glorious Revolution. Also, is it correct to use the term British in the following para? shtove 20:59, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
I think there is a lot of history, but this should be balanced by more about Waterford today - culture, sport, business, tourism, employment, research, etc.
Also, I agree with the comment about the map, it could be better and clearer.
I agree with this. Also, why is the proper Waterford City Council crest not used?
There is an official Waterford City Council crest, which has remained unchanged since the 1950's iirc. There is a an authority for heraldry in Ireland, and I'm sure this crest is registered and sanctioned by them. It seems to be true that you have to get permission from the city council to use the crest, but it might be worth doing so.
I don't know how you could say that the crest is not such a good image when the existing image on the site is so poor and hardly bears any resemblance to any Waterford city crest, past or present. Personally I think that the actual crest is quite visually appealing.
Every city has a proper heraldic crest, and now, it seems, a flashy corporate logo. I am obviously talking about using the crest, not the logo. I'm guessing that the only reason the logos have come in to existence is that the legal basis for copyrighting heraldic crests is not solid. Merlante
I understand that the city and the council are different, but the crest refers as much to the city as to the council, imho. Once again I am not talking about the new Second-river-crossing-style logo, but the crest as has been popularly depicted in the 20th century. Perhaps there are an unlimited amount of images that would fit the heraldic description, but there really are only a few variations that people immediately identify with. The city crest on the council site is probably the most recognisable, probably followed by a crest similar to what the GAA used for a while: basically just the three ships on blue waters. I think that a good quality image of any of these would make a good replacement. I'll get around to looking for one eventually if nobody gets there first. Merlante
I added this section a while ago. I have only put people in there that were actually born in Waterford City, as opposed to County, or somewhere else. Currently, the only exception to this is Peter O'Connor. He was born in Ashford, Co. Wicklow, however, he lived in many places over the course of his childhood, none of which he seemed to have spent much time in, and none of which "claim him" as their own. The one place he did settle was Waterford, and he lived there for most of his life. In contrast, I did not include Ignatious Rice because, although he lived most of his life in Waterford, he comes from Kilkenny, where his family was well established, and he is recognised generally as a Kilkenny man.
-- Jmccormac 18:54, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I would argue Edmund Rice should be added here as he chose to die in his home, Waterford, and his bones rest in the city too and given the historic significance of Mount Sion it is surely worth adding. I would also say he could also be the key to Kilkenny Waterford relationship moving forward.
I'm going to cut this section down, as all the information is in the main article and the space it takes up here is disproportionate. Jdorney 14:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Question: the history section claims Waterford to have been founded in 914 and "thus being Ireland's oldest city". If you wikisearch the history of dublin or limerick, the former is said to have been founded in 841 and the latter in 812. Something is wrong - it can't be the oldest city if its younger than another by almost 100 years, can it?
13:03, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
According to this link: http://dedanaan.com/untilled-fields-of-irish-history/a-celtic-chronology/8/ Waterford was "founded" in 830, but the claim is that it is Ireland's oldest city, meaning that in 914 when it actually became a city, it was Ireland's first... I think. Hope this helps somewhat anyway. JimGreeid ( talk) 05:11, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately it appears content (irrespective of quality) is now determined by straw votes, see Talk:Cities in Ireland. Comments welcome. Djegan 19:29, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I just finished a major revamp of the Waterford article. I did it because I think that the old article was very poor, particularly the 'Today' section, and also because I think that the lack of headings led people to adding in bits of information in random places, and prevented others from going at it at all.
What I did was re-write the pre-amble completely and ditch the 'Today' section in favour of lots of headings.
It is far from perfect, I know. There must be a lot of small mistakes and so on, but I'm done working on it for tonight, and I think the changes had to be made. Merlante 00:46, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I see there has been a bit of an edit spat about adding links to Waterford websites. Could we please discuss this without trying to overrule each other?
Personally, I don't think that an 'Internet' sub-section' fits in with 'Media' section. What is there at the moment is a listing of established media sources that serve the city. The Waterford discussion forums are not media sources in this sense, and are there for entertainment rather than to provide conventional journalism. Perhaps a link in an 'Entertainment' section to an article called 'Waterford on the Internet' might be the way to go here. The Waterford city article probably shouldn't get that much bigger as it is, and plenty of important sections, such as 'Sport' and an enlarged 'Politics' section have yet to be added. I would urge people to comment here.
Merlante
12:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a links directory. The way that upthedeise.com and ciddytours.com were being added was quite blatent linkspamming and website promotion. A while ago, there was linkspam leading to sites that were .com variations of the official Waterford websites. These links were owned by upthedeise.com. If there is to be an 'Internet' section then it should be about internet access (what kind of internet access is available such as ADSL/Wireless/ISDN/Dialup etc).--
Jmccormac
15:04, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I have added a media section with waterford related media, wlr, news and star and waterford today, like the Galway wikipedia entry. I have added upthedeise.com to this section as it is a media source, there are articles on waterford writers. I think this is a valid case for a link to upthedeise.com as it is a media source for hundreds of Waterford people. Scratch that I see Jmccormack removed it and put in the Munster Express (invalidly) I will clean up the square bracket.
Read the policy doc and UTD is actually a media source with regular articles, photos, songs etc., it just so happens there is a board element on upthdeise.org which I have not attempted to link to to. In fact some of the media on this site has come from UTD e.g. slang, waterford logo etc. I think that warrants a link, it is not to promote the website but to provide waterford information seekers with a site containing lots of facts about waterford. Anyone who denies that UTD is an info source for waterfordians is not speaking the truth. If you want to quote some facts from the site it may make the decision to keep the link easier for you. CF.
I don't think it matters whether UTD is more than just a message board or not, we can't get into the business of listing all sites that could by some definition qualify as a media source. And it would have to be all or none. This is as much a question of scope as of anything else, we could exhaustively name all of the businesses of the IDA industrial estate if we wanted to just to give information, but that would make for a pretty poor article. The article has a finite length, and shouldn't be too long, so we have to focus only on the most pertinent facts. So to summarise, in my opinion it would be incorrect to list UTD on its own, since that's plain advertising, and also incorrect to exhaustively list all Waterford websites, since wikipedia articles are not portals, and aesthetically it would look very poor. I suspect there are guidelines somewhere that say this, which I will endeavour to find. Merlante 01:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
P.s. I am well aware that I am slightly biased ;) 159.134.148.246 01:07, 16 March 2007 (UTC)CF
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/75.6.248.86
I've relinked them pending discussion here. They'll probably be unlinked again by another UTD fanatic.
--
Jmccormac
00:16, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that Reginald was the founder of the city as claimed in the section in Reginald's tower at the top of the article. Has anyone got a source on this? Some of the stuff from Downey's 'History Of Waterford' (The book was published in 1914 and does not have an ISBN) might be worth referencing either in this article or the article on the history of the city. Apparently Reginald's Tower predates the Tower of London and is one of the oldest buildings of its type still standing in these islands.-- Jmccormac 19:50, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I see that this article has been assessed as 'Start' class (see assessment box at the top of the page). I think this assessment is a bit unfair. I think 'B' class would be a fairer reflection. In any case, what say a few of us get together and try to improve the article systematically. Perhaps we could create some sort of project page and list targets on it. Here are some things that I think the article could benefit from off the bat:
Thoughts? Merlante 20:49, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
# That would be a good idea.
# Politics is big now because of the recent election but will be less important later.
# There should be some on the city council website.
# Maybe but the city walls would be the only big part.
# You can't include everything.
# Again a list should be on the city council website that may help.
Tonyf12 16:46, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
It might be glaringly obvious to us that the Colloquialisms section has its reference - the Dictionary of Waterford Slang book in the additional reading list. However that has not stopped two people from deleting the section. I have restored the section and put an explanation, in simple terms, for these non-Waterfordians.-- Jmccormac 07:31, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I took the opportunity while removing some vandalism to delete this section but it was restored quickly. This section is breaking all the rules about verifiability (leaving aside my view that it is ruining any chance Waterford has of developing to GA status). I have tagged the section, do not remove the tag without discussion. ( Sarah777 ( talk) 11:51, 23 December 2007 (UTC))
As per the above discussion I have moved the Colloquialisms to a separate page, listed in the See Also section, and have condensed the cinema section. Ferdia O'Brien (T)/ (C) 11:53, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
As I expected, the Waterford Colloquialisms are already up for deletion. Ferdia O'Brien (T)/ (C) 13:20, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
In relation to my recent edits on the media section I would like to remind jmccormac that he does not own this page. I don't see any problem with listing prices and editors of the local papers, in fact surely this is information that many people would want to know about any local paper. This is not advertising, and I am not connected to any media source in any way. If anyone thinks that I am wrong in my views, make me aware of it instead of changing interesting details just to feed your own ego. Donut216 ( talk) 17:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
The image Image:Rochester NY flag.svg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
The following images also have this problem:
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. -- 22:24, 2 October 2008 (UTC)