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I've been trying to improve the "Technique" section. It has been surprisingly quite difficult to find a good source for a detailed description of waterboarding, as the United States practices it. Most news articles seem to gloss over the details, saying that water is poured over the person causing a gag reflex, or something of the like, but not saying anything much about how much water is used, for how long, whether it is poured into the mouth or the nose, whether the mouth or nose are covered, etc.
In fact, the description in most news articles could accurately be applied to a very mild form of interrogation, in which plastic wrap is put over a suspect's face, and water is poured over the person - but the water slides off the plastic wrap and does not cause gagging or asphyxiation. I had the impression for some time that this was what was happening, and I don't seem to be alone - the Fox News correspondent in the video I've linked asks if the water slid off the cellophane.
Anyway, as far as I know this mild interrogation has never been used (obviously it wouldn't be very effective), and the actual technique is basically what's shown on the Fox News segments (surprisingly, they seem to be pretty accurate here). Unfortunately I have been unable to find a really solid source for this belief (I think I did read an article which said so, but I don't remember where at all). For now I have edited the section to try to give an idea of the ambiguities involved, and to at least include a more concrete description, even if that description can't be solidly sourced at the moment.
As a final note, if I've done anything horrifically impolite by Wikipedia standards, then I apologize and ask for a polite correction - this is basically the first time I've tried to edit an article. Worldworld 05:24, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to see the dunking go away from this block, it was trashed out a while ago in [ [1]] and in edit summaries and I believe it was deemed a red herring, sometimes accidental, and sometimes a very deliberate effort at misinformation by some sectors in the US media. Inertia Tensor 21:38, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
New Fox News definition: http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding ? :-) Inertia Tensor 12:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Everything I have read on waterboarding before defines waterboarding as simulating drowning by pouring water on the victim over a cloth or other barrier. However, I recently read an article [2] which states that waterboarding as practiced by the US military is a form of actual, but controlled drowning, where the victim is forced to inhale water into the lungs. Does anyone know of any corroborating sources, and if so, should the information be included in this article, or perhaps there's another name for this kind of torture covered under a different article? -- Halloween jack 04:43, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Malcolm Nance, former SERE instructor really explains it well: "It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning. How much the victim is to drown depends on the desired result (in the form of answers to questions shouted into the victim’s face) and the obstinacy of the subject. A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs which show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience, to horrific suffocating punishment to the final death spiral." See http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/ 69.156.23.125 —Preceding comment was added at 17:46, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
the point of waterboarding is to seal the mouth and force water through the nose. the article does not emphasize this, instead it goes for the opposite, suggesting that there is a hole cut in celophane etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.192.12.135 ( talk) 22:02, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, how is it possible that you could know something that we don't know? Or something that is not in an article! Preposterous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.168.198.207 ( talk) 12:16, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Let me just add for the record that I am appalled that waterboarding, being a mock execution and a very real, prolonged, controlled drowning, has to be referencedly justified to be torture. If this is not torture, then the word has utterly lost its meaning. Falkvinge 16:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Seeing the comments here we need some clarification regarding many misconceptions
Respectfully Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 16:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Instead of "I think" why not look it up? Here is what U.S. law (18 USC 2340) actually says:
(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from— (A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering; (B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality; (C) the threat of imminent death; or (D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality;
The word "prolonged" refers to the long-term effects of torture, not the duration of the torture procedure itself, and "the threat of imminent death" is specifically listed as causing "prolonged mental harm." The one thing everyone seems to agree on is that waterboarding produces an intense fear of imminent death. I think we can rely on the plain meaning of the law here.-- agr ( talk) 20:04, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
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This article is great! Well-sourced, NPOV, informative, and reads very well. I came here after reading an article about the US Attorney General nominee, and learned quite a bit. Well done to all involved.
I have removed the "In Popular Culture" section, which stands out like a sore thumb in such an otherwise dandy article. Of course, if any of the regular editors here feel strongly about it, please revert by all means.
Cheers, ➪ HiDrNick! 20:19, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
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This is a wonderful example of where the Neutral in NPOV breaks down. Only a torture supporting weasel could for a moment contemplate calling waterboarding anything other than Torture. It is plain and simple Torture. To say other is to wander far Neutral and Objective. Do the thought experiment... allow me to strap you to a waterboard and commence... how long before you change your mind about whether it's torture or not? Any euphemistic "has been called torture", "forced interrogation technique" or its "someone's opinion that" is simple evil weaseling of the first order. It's torture, end of story.
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A Machiavellian who believes any means is justified by the ends, down to and including torture will find NPOV a convenient means to the end. Thus the Wikipedia merely becomes a propaganda broadsheet for the editor with the lowest morals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.37.96.11 ( talk) 00:12, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
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Could the new arrivals please desist in MASSIVE blanking and provoking of an edit war. Read talk, read the archives and stop engaging in massive unilateral blanking to suit your political masters. This DOES place a lot at the foot of the US, not is NOT BIAS, that is fact, the US is doing it right now, no one knows of any major uses that we can document. It starts by saying what waterboarding is - torture, and how it is done. If it has to mention the US it is only because it is who does it. If you do not want to be called torturers - DO NOT TORTURE. Please take your zero concensus unilateral blanking and edit waring elsewhere and stop filling this artcile with weasels. 89.100.48.103 01:09, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
This article arrived at a consensus long before you blew in with your politically motivated biases. It is obvious that you did not make any attempt to seek compromise, did not participate in talk until after you assaulted the article. It says this has generated a blanking of paragraphs, blasted the concept of consensus and provoked a serious edit war. Please desist in your highly disruptive editing and injection of gross bias, unsourced weasel words and general mayhem. Did you seriously expect editors not to revert you for not properly participating and attempting to impose your bias, POV and agenda? Inertia Tensor 01:38, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Dude. You can't even spell John Yoo properly. I don't think it's really worth my time debating the issue with someone who clearly has a poor grasp of the facts. All I'm trying to do is insert a modicum of NPOV in the article, seeing as there is a present live controversy on the waterboarding question. I have no political stake in this - I'm not even American. Wikipedia should reflect NPOV instead of coming down conclusively on one side or another of a debate, that's all there is to my edit, which did NOT say that w'boarding wasn't torture, or that it is. It merely says that many regard w'boarding to be torture, and makes no categorical claim that it "is" torture absence some authoritative source or law on the issue. NPOV is all I'm saying. Your taking one side, instead of adhering to NPOV, is not very wikipedesque of you. 220.255.115.209 01:59, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
No response? I guess the revelation that I am NOT American put a big hole in your "politically motivated" theory. Wikipedia also says to assume good faith - a courtesy I have not had extended to me. Instead, I was raked over the coals for daring to give the article a NPOV edit. Silly me. I should have known better than assume that my good faith edits would incur anything other than a hysterical reaction (see various examples above). 220.255.115.209 02:14, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
How about you read the article you are fighting on - just a suggestion. You might find THIS in it.
Just a suggestion... Inertia Tensor 03:51, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
In the current state of the article, I agree with the United States being mentioned in the initial section as the most recent media coverage. I do not find fault with this and believe it is pertinent information relating to this article. -- Pyrex238 02:31, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I also find it ridiculous that the entire technique sub heading is composed of only U.S. officials, and media outlets - again this is a bias attempt to associate the United States with ownership - this is what I'm talking about people. --
Pyrex238
02:43, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
This article contains blatant political biases. The purpose of this article is to define the technique, implementation, purpose, and history. Political biased viewers are intentionally placing the recent United State's allegations directly after the first sentence. That is absolutely absurd editing. The proper location for such material is under the History header, and United States sub section. Wiki viewers must control their biases when editing these articles. --
Pyrex238
02:04, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Again, more political bias being thrown back into the article. The world 'charged' is used to describe nothing more than allegations, and speculations. Wikipedia's purpose is to provide an unbiased statement of fact to it's viewers. Using the word 'charged' is insinuating that this was a ruling of a court, when it is no more than an allegation. These kinds of words are intentionally used to steer an unbiased viewer into believing something more than speculative allegations had taken place. I have absolutely no problem with the word being used if it were supported by factual evidence, but none is supplied, and it is continually edited to suit a particular bias. Wikipedia is fast becoming a wildly anti-american biased source for information, and this article is further evidence of this. I do not feel that an article regarding technique of torture which was invented 100 years before the inception of the United States should be written in a manner to suggest the United States is solely responsible for it. No matter what your political view is of the U.S., or it's political mindset - one must realize that every bit of information contained in this article in relation to this technique is entirely speculation and none of which has ever been proven, or had a court ruling to verify the allegations. Furthermore, I submit an example as the quote from Jimmy Carter - win which he states "I don't think it, I know it." That's a very strong quote and opinion from an ex US President, yet again there is zero facts to support this, and it is coming from a president which is widely regarded in historical fact as being incredibly anti-military. You will see this is the general temperament of the entire U.S. portion of the article - opinions, media coverage, and speculation. If Wiki were in fact a recognized encyclopedia, all of this information would be consider speculation and removed. Facts and facts alone should be contained in this article. Please, leave the political bias on youtube. -- Pyrex238 02:09, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Inertia Tensor - Sorry I deleted your reply to me earlier, I forgot to log in, and when I did I had the wrong section of text selected to undo. I respect your opinion, but you state the U.S. has murdered a million people? That's ridiculous.. seriously, what in the world are you talking about? Pyrex238 03:20, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I've removed claims that state categorically that waterboarding constitutes "torture". Absent an authoritative law, Congressional determination, or ICJ opinion that waterboarding constitutes torture, retaining NPOV is essential. Hence the compromise edit that states that "many" have held that waterboarding is torture, without coming down on one side or the other of the controversy.
Note that the compromise does NOT state that waterboarding is not torture. It simply avoids stating categorically that it is. This is as NPOV as it gets. That warring editors have attempted to come down conclusively on one side of the controversy, is I think, an indicator that POV is being pushed. 220.255.115.209 03:42, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
You all should immediately understand as well that this article isn't Waterboarding in the United States, its Waterboarding, globally. This article should never, full stop, say waterboarding is or isn't torture, because there will never be such an answer. We can only report what reliable sources say. Our own views or perceptions aren't allowed here--that is NPOV. • Lawrence Cohen 05:39, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Per request on WP:RPP, the article has been fully protected for a few days. From the contributions, it's not simple anon vandalism but a full-on content dispute. Folks - please try to resolve the matter here first before warring about the article - Alison ❤ 04:02, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Could these be TOR/open proxies? • Lawrence Cohen 05:08, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
As we obviously are not allowed to decide this per NPOV and OR, this is the current version Alison locked the article on. I found this today, and saw the state of things, and offered up this as lead sentences to try to compromise:
Now, the seven (!) sources listed are all people that could be safely and extremely uncontroversially called "experts" on the matter, ranging from legal experts, lawyers, Central Intellegience Agency staff, and ex-United States Presidents. I think it's pretty unequivocal and NPOV that waterboarding has "been called torture by numerous experts." Does anyone disagree? Why, based on Wikipedia polices. Please explain. Might as well start at the top of the article to fix this insanely useless edit war. • Lawrence Cohen 05:20, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
How about
Just a suggestion. Respectfully Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 13:14, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I like this. Let me ask for this edit to be installed, it meets NPOV perfectly that I can see, and is completely verifiable, so no valid objections under policy can exist. • Lawrence Cohen 15:28, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}} Can the opening line in this article to be changed to Nescio's suggestion?
Waterboarding is a form of controlled drowning used to extract information. Numerous experts have described this technique as torture.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]
Thanks. 1-7 sources are the existing ones already in place. • Lawrence Cohen 15:28, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm looking for help from anyone in answering these two questions:
(Q1) If there are numerous sources that say "X is true" but no one can find sources that say "X is false", is it fair for a Wikipedia article to simply state "X is true"?
(Q2) Has anyone found any sources that say "waterboarding is not torture"?
Ka-Ping Yee 12:22, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
The effectiveness "discussion" isn't neutral. It only gives the point of view that waterboarding is not effective, although some experts will say that it is. I realize such claims were included earlier in the article, but so were the doubts of its effectiveness. I propose that the "effectiveness" section either be removed for redundancy's sake, or be expanded to include viewpoints that differ from "it doesn't work." Otherwise, this page leaves the impression that "waterboarding isn't effective" is pretty much universally agreed upon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.58.248.32 ( talk) 15:17, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
In the <a href=" http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article2368990.ece">Independent news article</a>, the brief story makes claims and cites unnamed legal experts and an unnamed CIA officer (who is contradicted by CIA officers who are named elsewhere in the wiki article). If "legal experts" aren't named nor their qualifications given, can we really rely on their assumed "expertise", even if the unknown experts were cited in an otherwise reliable newspaper? I mean, if a DUI lawyer says, "I think waterboarding is very effective," does this mean he can be cited as a "legal expert"? If I sound like I'm nit-picking, I'm not trying to. But verifiability is key, and Independent reporter Andrew Gumbel is normally tasked to covering Hollywood stories, not political / military / legal issues. I would like to see a better source for this story's claims, is all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.58.248.33 ( talk) 16:05, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}}
I suggest wikifying the word " torture" in the first section so that readers can easily compare the description of waterboarding with the actual definition in the torture article. -- Risacher 15:28, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
{{ Editprotected}} Any endorsements for changing this passage:
To:
Change is in bold, addition of "alleged". These men have not been convicted in any internationally recognized court of law that is authorized to name them as war criminals. This is per WP:BLP. • Lawrence Cohen 15:40, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
The overall tone and writing on this article is very specific to the United States. While we're a big nation, we're only one, and waterboarding is hardly unique to us. A pretty compelling section on the US and waterboarding can certainly be built, but we need to generalize and internationalize the article heavily. The lead is basically, "Waterboarding is this. The United States... The United States... The United States... The United States... something else, The United States... something else." That is a bit of undue weight. Just a thought. • Lawrence Cohen 16:52, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I would like to propose a new intro paragraph for this article that avoids the "waterboarding is X" construction and I think covers the various views in an NPOV way, without giving undue weight to the self-serving Bush position. I have not added refs to the last two sentences, pending some consensus on language. (refs make things hard to edit. There are plenty, including the last few days coverage by the NY Times).
-- agr 17:26, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
To narrow the debate a little, Can we all agree that the beginning of the article should read as follows below (and then it can get into the torture categorization question). I, myself think this is the most NPOV way to introduce the subject (nice job agr!). Remember 20:22, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Editing Talk:Waterboarding (section) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaith Ka-Ping's suggested Nescio intro is that "controlled drowning" is a term that I could not find defined anywhere authoritative so to say that "Waterboarding is a form of controlled drowning" becomes problematic. This is not to say controlled drowning is or isn't a widely accepted term, I just can find anything authoritative that defines this term. Remember 20:51, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
The above lead doesn't provide the context under which waterboarding might occur, and as others have somewhat stated "a form of controlled drowning"? Are there other forms of controlled drowning? Drowning is defined as DEATH by suffocation/asphyxiation....Since waterboarding doesn't induce death, I would suggest that it is not a form of drowning. Why doesn't the article open with "Waterboarding is a technique applied to prisoners to make them believe they are drowning. The fear of drowning is exploited by the prisoners' captors in order to extract information from, punish, weaken/break the spirit of, or reeducate the prisoner. The effectiveness and legality of Waterboarding are subject to debate." Jotorious 22:16, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
The process is "drowning" but "near-drowning" seems accurate. Nonetheless, I would be very surprised if no prisoner ever died from undergoing this procedure, either in the past or present. Badagnani 03:44, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
May I again offer a suggestion
Respectfully Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 13:17, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
As much of the conflict swirled around the lead section, what other issues do people have? Maybe each person post a concise summary, and we can then pick apart problems. • Lawrence Cohen 19:55, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
My lay understanding is that the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th amendment is currently interpreted quite literally, and that constitutional protections are apply to all persons within the jurisdiction, regardless of citizenship, though I can't right now find a specific case citation regarding equal protection application to legal non-citizen aliens with respect to criminal proceedings....the U.S. Constitution's ban on cruel and unusual punishment, however this applies solely to United States citizens, as the U.S. Constitution does not protect the rights of non-citizens.
{{
editprotected}}
...however this applies solely to United States citizens, as the U.S. Constitution does not protect the rights of non-citizens <\blockquote>.
This recent article about waterboarding, which outlines its teaching in the U.S. and its practice and effects in some detail, would add greatly to this article. It also describes the experience of Henri Alleg, one of the most prominent examples of someone to have been subjected to this technique, speaking about his experience. I don't believe Alleg is mentioned at all in the article, but he should be. Badagnani 20:48, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
It would be great to have input about this point. Badagnani 18:28, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Done. If the quote is too long perhaps it could go in a section listing personal accounts of being waterboarded. There seem to be few who have written about this in detail other than Alleg and Nance. Badagnani 18:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
The section on effectiveness is US-centric, modern-centric, and generic to torture in the large, not just waterboarding; as such, I'd recommend it be deleted and replaced by a single link earlier in the discussion. I'm not seeing a good link on torture or its sub-articles, but I highly doubt that the waterboarding article is the place to talk about the effectiveness of torture in interrogations. Bhudson 22:07, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
The question is whether torture is "binary", i.e. whether a given action IS or IS NOT torture. This makes it simple, both ethically and politically. The people of the world can brand an action as "torture" or declare that it is "not torture". These will be our only two choices.
A simple choice gives us simple options. A given country either calls the action torture and bans it, or denies that it is torture and permits it. A murky middle ground can also emerge in which the country refuses to say whether an action (like waterboarding) is "torture" or not. This would let them continue to uphold the prohibition against " torture" while not making any definitive statement one way or the other on certain specific actions.
A more complex analysis is also possible. The people of the world can assign "levels of severity" to various uncomfortable, distressing, painful or mutilating actions. Each country might even have its own definition of what is permitted. In several African countries, the private parts of young girls are routinely mutilated but there is hardly any worldwide condemnation of this action as "torture". (Oddly enough, male circumcision has attracted much criticism.) In pre-war Iraq, the government removing the earlobes of prisoners (as a coercive measure); the U.S. considers this "torture" and has never condoned it.
The question of waterboarding then becomes - rather then whether it is simply torture or not - a question of whether it is too severe a practice.
The United States frequently presents itself as a model of civilized democracy and is often considered a leader in the field of human rights. Thus many people look to the U.S. as an arbiter and pacesetter for the ethical question of prisoner abuse. Perhaps that is why world attention has been focused on the issue of post-war Iraq and the U.S. treatment of prisoners.
What makes this article so difficult to write is that there is no universal standard of human rights which all countries (and all advocates and partisan groups) can agree on. We could make our writing task easier if we as writers would each give up any idea of making the article reflect our own views. Instead, we might agree to have the article describe all the major views which are "out there".
Here is a possible outline on the "torture" question regarding waterboarding:
Which other Wikipedia writers feel that this would be a good outline, and that we could remove the "protection" from the article? -- Uncle Ed 13:16, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
It seems that the classification of waterboarding as " torture" has legal implications similar to those of classifying forced migration or mass murder as " genocide". Treaties as well as national law come into play.
For example:
We can draw up similar proofs for civilian officials who order waterboarding. And there are parallels for countries and genocide.
The key point here is that the main conclusion is that someone (or some country) should be condemned and punished.
Governments which want to coerce prisoners, or which want to displace or kill unwanted populations, generally do NOT want to concede that these actions should be condemned. So they resist classification of these actions in any ethical or legal category which merits condemnation.
Perhaps then our strategy as Wikipedia article co-authors is to describe the views of various parties (A) who classify waterboarding etc. as "bad" and "worthy of punishment", as well as (B) who fail to agree with this classification or even dispute it actively. -- Uncle Ed 17:38, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Malcolm Nance, the U.S.'s chief officer in charge of teaching waterboarding, has just stated that waterboarding is absolutely a form of torture. Please read this article, in which his tesimony is summarized, before commenting further about your opinions on the matter, thanks. Badagnani 18:34, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
The original article is here. Badagnani 18:38, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Did you read the article straight through? He states that he himself has been waterboarded and that it is bad enough even though he (and his trainees) know what is coming. For a prisoner who may never have undergone this procedure, it causes extremely severe physical and mental stress, and is torture.
This is the passage in question:
“ | The carnival-like he-said, she-said of the legality of Enhanced Interrogation Techniques has become a form of doublespeak worthy of Catch-22. Having been subjected to them all, I know these techniques, if in fact they are actually being used, are not dangerous when applied in training for short periods. However, when performed with even moderate intensity over an extended time on an unsuspecting prisoner – it is torture, without doubt. Couple that with waterboarding and the entire medley not only “shock the conscience” as the statute forbids -it would terrify you. Most people can not stand to watch a high intensity kinetic interrogation. One has to overcome basic human decency to endure watching or causing the effects. The brutality would force you into a personal moral dilemma between humanity and hatred. It would leave you to question the meaning of what it is to be an American. | ” |
Source: [7]
Subjecting U.S. personnel to tear gas, pepper spray, Tasers, or waterboarding is a form of training and, if I read your comment correctly, it was meant to be sarcastic, minimizing the physical and mental injury caused by this technique by pointing out that some U.S. counterterrorism personnel undergo it for short periods as part of their training. Correct me if your intent differed from my interpretation. Badagnani 18:55, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't follow you. You're turning the tables to imply that war crimes charges could be brought against Nance for subjecting U.S. counterterrorism staff to waterboarding as part of their training? This doesn't seem particularly relevant in light of the fact that this technique is being used in the "real world." For some reason you prefer to "turn the tables" against Nance, a la the Swift Boats, rather than actually address his commentary about this technique's adoption by U.S. personnel and the possible repercussions this may have on the U.S. (as well as on the individuals against whom the technique is used). Very strange. Regarding my use of the word "stress," thanks for pointing out that this term is not used in the actual conventions against torture. However, I believe mental torture (i.e. torture that inflicts lasting psychological harm) is certainly a form of torture, and is prohibited by the Geneva Conventions. I don't have those Conventions in front of me but you seem to project the sense that you are very familiar with them. Badagnani 19:08, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
TGFW (Thank God for Wikipedia). Here is the quote from the Third Geneva Convention. You are correct that the term "stress" is not used.
“ | No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind. | ” |
Badagnani 19:13, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
It seems that the consensus of Wikipedia writers here is that waterboarding is torture. But the question is how to characterize the US view. Is there any American official on record as expressing an opinion on the ethics or legality of waterboarding? I'm looking for something like the following:
Without a defininitive official statement, we will be reduced to saying something like:
Sorry, no more time for this issue today; this is my best advice. Go to it, fellas. :-) -- Uncle Ed 19:56, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
“ | ...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. | ” |
“ | ...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. | ” |
Badagnani 21:58, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
“ | ...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. | ” |
“ | ...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. | ” |
Badagnani 23:13, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
No, of course I am not saying that. I'm not sure I can understand the fervency you seem to have to show (wish?) that this practice is not torture. It's certainly very strange, in light of the evidence presented here, again and again. According to our own definition of torture, as stated in the lead of the Torture article (should I present it again, as you seem not to have read it?), inflicting severe physical or mental pain or suffering for the purpose of eliciting information from a prisoner is "torture," whether it is brief or not. You had stated, emphatically (and quite wrongly) that this practice is not dangerous and cannot lead to the death of the subject, hence my introduction of the concept of waterboarding that is conducted for an extended period, which certainly carries the risk of death to the subject. It's interesting that you continue to questions of me, while you fail to address the ones I have raised. Badagnani 05:02, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Badagnani says that waterboarding is torture "by definition". The argument has been repeated ad nauseum, so I'd like some clarification. Can we have the definition that says waterboarding "is" torture? Thank you. 220.255.36.206 23:54, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
It appears that no definition is forthcoming. Since Badagnani is unable to provide the definition he claims to have stating that "waterboarding is torture", I'll have to reluctantly conclude that his claim is false. 220.255.36.206 06:12, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I hate to repeat what I already said, but the definition of torture under US law includes the treat of imminent death, specifically, 19 USC 2340 reads: "'torture' means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control; (2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—...(C) the threat of imminent death;..."The relevant language in 19 USC 2340 reads: "'torture' means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control; (2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—...(C) the threat of imminent death;..." Note that no physical pain is required. And every description of waterboarding says that the victim is made to believe they are going to die. -- agr 10:09, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Above, 220.255.36.206 writes: "Except that there is no threat of imminent death since death isn't actually imminent. The perceived threat of death is not the same thing as actual threat of death (Russian Roulette, for example)." This is nonsense.
1. Claim: "Death isn't actually imminent." False, for simple reasons:
2. Claim: The perceived threat of death is not torture because "it is not the same thing as actual threat of death." Also false:
I'm not saying you can't make other arguments if you wish. But this particular contention -- that waterboarding fails to meet the "threat of imminent death" qualification for torture -- is straightforwardly invalid. Either one of the two arguments just presented is sufficient to reject this contention. Ka-Ping Yee 05:03, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Oops. I guess there's no need now. I've just found out that the Army Field Manual you link to is obsolete and has actually been superseded: this is the latest version of FM 34-52 (now FM 2-22.3), published on September 6, 2006. It's searchable. And nowhere does it state that "mock execution is considered torture". It says that mock execution is prohibited, but that's very different from saying that mock execution "is considered torture".
And to add to what was mentioned above, Army Field Manuals apply to DOD/army personnel only. This is specifically stated in the Preface. So your citation is irrelevant anyway.
Your claim is false. Your second point is as invalid as your first. 220.255.36.206 07:27, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Stay on topic, please. This thread is specifically about the disputed claims (and I quote 220.255.36.206): "there is no threat of imminent death since death isn't actually imminent" and "Since death does not actually occur, there is no imminent threat of death". Ka-Ping Yee 17:41, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Again, stay on topic. Name-calling your opponents "POV-pushers" does not constitute an argument. I do not know if you intended to apply that label to me; nonetheless, as I have refrained from calling you names, I request that you extend me the same respect. And allow me to remind you again, this thread is specifically about your claim that, unless actual death occurs, there can be no threat of imminent death. This thread is not a general argument about all the possible reasons that waterboarding is or is not torture. This is just about your stated interpretation of the phrase "threat of imminent death."
Now, on the topic: to claim that actual death is a necessary part of "threat of imminent death" is to fail to understand the meanings of the words "threat" and "imminent". It appears that you treat the term as if these words have no meaning at all. To demonstrate this let me ask you a few questions:
Person A is strangling Person B. Person A has been strangling Person B, and Person B has been unable to breathe, for the past 60 seconds. Person B is struggling to escape and running out of oxygen.
Ka-Ping Yee 23:13, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
You wrote: "No. Because Person A halts the process and does not allow death to occur." I did not say that Person A would halt. I think you misunderstood my example. This is all I specified: "Person A has been strangling Person B, and Person B has been unable to breathe, for the past 60 seconds." Like anyone else, Person B does not have the ability to predict the future.
At that moment, what is Person B experiencing? Imagine yourself in the position of person B, if you like. How would you describe what you are experiencing?
With the scenario clarified, would you please answer my questions again?
Thank you.
(By the way, the mere occurrence of an argument does not establish the plausibility of anything. I can argue all day that 2+2=3 and that mere act of arguing does not make it plausible. Plausibility is established by evidence and reasoning.) Ka-Ping Yee 02:39, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
There is nothing to address in that example. We both agree that a person playing Russian Roulette experiences a threat of imminent death. That is not in dispute.
Where we disagree is that I believe a person being strangled experiences a threat of imminent death regardless of whether the strangulation stops at some point in the future, and you do not. I am merely trying to learn exactly what your position is with respect to the meaning of "threat of imminent death." That is all that is on the table in this thread.
Based on what you've said so far, my understanding of your position is that if someone is strangled for a minute and a half, and released alive, then at no point did they experience a threat of imminent death; and if someone is strangled for five minutes until they die, then they did experience a threat of imminent death all along. Before we continue, let me make sure I have that right. Does that correctly correspond to your understanding of "threat of imminent death"? Ka-Ping Yee 21:28, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Guys, this is way off into OR-land. Unless someone has a reliable source for the theory that there's no threat of imminent death unless someone actually dies, this discussion doesn't belong on Wikipedia. -- agr 01:25, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying your position: "My position is that if practice X involves strangling someone and halting before death, then at no point did they experience a threat of imminent death." This is really quite an incredible position. (May I even say breathtakingly incredible? Ha ha.) Your position requires that strangling victims see into the future -- that they somehow predict, accurately, while they are being strangled, whether the strangling will halt before they die, and that these events that have not happened yet actually change what they are experiencing in the present. Since your argument depends on making information travel back in time, it can be safely dismissed. Ka-Ping Yee 02:24, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
If someone is driving, he or she is often technically under the threat of imminent death (see car accident for details), and thus in some people's reasoning a person who is driving is torturing himself or herself. As for the proverbial person on a roller coaster, the vast majority of people make it out safely, but there have been a few deaths on amusement park rides "plunging towards the ground" or making other weird moves, occasionally due to drunken stupidity on the part of the deceased. Nonetheless, in both cases, people aim and expect to come out safely. Thus, shouldn't we be talking more about a perceived threat of imminent death, as well as the actual threat of imminent death? Perceptions matter. The person being waterboarded is in the midst of an incomplete (most of the time) drowning, yet there is often the perceived (and sometimes actual) threat of imminent death. Moreover, the person is made to feel pain or discomfort deliberately, for the purpose of punishing or extracting information (often a pretext to punish the same person), and that satisfies my definition of torture (which could in principle extend to any means of deliberate hurting or discomforting of captives for a period longer than an instant). 204.52.215.107 14:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
[9] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Remember ( talk • contribs) 17:06, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
And now, after that digression, back to the original question: is waterboarding torture? The answer, according to the definition of torture in our own article on the subject (as defined by international law), is yes.
“ | ...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. | ” |
Badagnani 01:07, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
As of now, Badagnani is unable to answer two direct questions.
Where does your definition say that "waterboarding is torture"? Please provide a quote.
(Badagnani doesn't say.)
Where does your definition say that waterboarding is an "act" that inflicts "severe pain or suffering"? Please provide a quote.
(Again, no answer.)
At least one source quoted by Randy above states that the (physical) pain was "not so painful". In other words, not "severe".
Since Badagnani is unable to provide supporting quotes for his claim that waterboarding "is" torture, we'll have to conclude, sadly, that his claim is false. Nothwithstanding his numerous, spurious claims to the contrary. 220.255.114.59 01:50, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
From WP:NPOV
The neutral point of view is a point of view that is neutral, that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject. Debates within topics are described, represented and characterized, but not engaged in. Background is provided on who believes what and why, and which view is more popular. Detailed articles might also contain the mutual evaluations of each viewpoint, but studiously refrain from asserting which is better. One can think of unbiased writing as the fair, analytical description of all relevant sides of a debate, including the mutual perspectives and the published evidence. When editorial bias toward one particular point of view can be detected, the article needs to be fixed.
It seems to me that Wikipedia is not the place to argue whether waterboarding is torture. There are notable people who say that it is not, so that viewpoint should be included. This opinion is substantially the minority opinion, so that should also be made clear.
Whether waterboarding is torture "in reality" or "by definition" actually seems to me to be irrelevant from the neutral point of view. Even disagreements which contradict obvious facts or simple logic must be included, if they are held by notable authorities. The point is that what is obvious or simple to one person, might be non-obvious or obviously incorrect to another. Even among ourselves, several points of view on this topic are being argued. Worldworld 04:34, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree the the media reports of the DOJ opinion belongs in the lede and I proposed specific language that does so above under "Proposed Lede." None the less, we can point out that by all reports waterboading causes intense fear of imminent death and that that is one of the definitions of torture under the plain meaning of 18 USC 2340. We should not engage in speculation on how DOJ comes to its reported conclusion. -- agr 10:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
220.255.114.59 writes: "The opinion that waterboarding is not torture is held by the US Department of Justice". I am aware of no such opinion. Please either provide a reference to a US DOJ opinion on the record that says "waterboarding is not torture" or retract your claim. Ka-Ping Yee 19:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Item 3 is immediately dismissed, as it fails to be a reliable source for the DOJ's official opinion in many ways: it is third-hand; it is a belief about what lawyers will say, not what they actually have said; and it is about unspecified lawyers that the administration "stocks" the DOJ with, not the DOJ as an institution.
An authorization of waterboarding is not equivalent to a declaration that waterboarding is not torture. Surely you can see that these two things are different. If you wish to claim that the US DOJ has authorized waterboarding then your items 1, 2, 4, and 5 certainly support that claim. However your claim is that the DOJ is an authoritative source for the position that waterboarding is not torture, for which none of these citations apply. Item 2 only says the memo "did not conflict with administration promises", which is a general claim about the memo as a whole, dependent on what the speaker believed the administration's promises were, and quite different from a direct statement that waterboarding is not torture. All your other quotations don't even mention torture.
If you have other sources, please provide them. Otherwise, you really don't have a case here. Ka-Ping Yee 01:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
If waterboarding fits the definition of torture, then it is torture. If the current article for torture doesn't change (as of 11/05/07, 9:30am pst), then the definition of torture indicates that waterboarding is torture. Any person can have a different idea of what is torture, be it Joe Common Man or President of the U.S., but without a valid logical reason, the current definition stands. If one believes that waterboarding is not torture then one needs to have valid reasons on why the definition of torture needs to be changed. The focus, if it hasn't been obvious by now, is wikipedias definition of torture. I can not detect any errors in logic in the postulate that waterboarding is torture. If one believes that waterboarding is not torture then one also disagrees with wikipedias definition of torture. As it stands, any debate about whether or not waterboarding is torture seems erroneous. Change the definition of torture and then one can debate whether or not waterboarding is torture. Sorry for the heavy handedness. -- Lincoln F. Stern 17:44, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Once again I must state that given the current definitions of torture and waterboarding, waterboarding is torture. waterboarding meets the definition of torture. It is a clear logical conclusion. Read the description for torture, then read the description of waterboarding. Logic, by its definition, is unbiased. The only way waterboarding can not be torture is if the current definitions of either one, or both, change. -- Lincoln F. Stern 16:40, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
User 220.255.112.159, the description of what constitutes torture is, in part, descriptive of the usage of waterboarding. There is no side to logic. Either a statement is true or it isn't. When an idea is accepted to mean something, and one group wishes to change that definition, it is then up to said group to provide proof to back up their claim. It is not up to the general public to have to prove or disprove any claim forwarded without any proof supporting the claim. The United States Department of Justice has probably made mistakes in the past. Either if they had not, it would be foolish for anyone to accept their claim at face value without proof. All I have seen from the DOJ is, basically, waterboarding is not torture. I have not seen an explanation of why it should not be considered torture. If the reason for something is "because they say so", well that is not a valid proof. -- Lincoln F. Stern 04:27, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
How exactly does waterboarding differ from water cure. Is waterboarding a subset of water cure? Remember 17:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
wrt. 1st §: waterboarding can't be interrogation, only a technique to support (or defect, depending on pov) the interrogation process. i think calling it interrogation is factually incorrect.
-- .~. 84.133.80.66 22:46, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Are blogs published by reliable news sources considered valid sources? One of the claims in the article (that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed had been waterboarded in the presence of a female CIA supervisor) is sourced to an ABCnews blog 'The Blotter'.
Also, reference 45 is sourced to a blog. Does anyone object to its removal? Thanks. 220.255.112.159 05:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I received a rather nasty post (which I repoponded accordingly to) in my talk page from Remember complaining of POV and demanding I use the talk page, which I have been. Ironically, this user has NOT used talk at all. Anyway, I have rolled back the revoltingly POV weasel words creeping in. Considering we are talking about clearly defined torture, I find this attempt to water down such an horrific crime to make it more politically palatable to a handful of war criminals and a rogue regime as an utterly unconscionable act, and certainly not appropriate for an encyclopedia. I suspect that even if Red State described this as "Controlled Drowning" there would be an uproar. I propose to revert any such weasel word on site. I suspect that the body of people here in talk seems like they would agree. 89.100.48.103 17:00, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Allison, Not that I have behaved well - I know I really was out off line in that war a few days ago - however, I really don't think it is appropriate for you to revert it as I have contended that that version is what was stable for a long time until someone else brought in the controlled drowning business without seeking consensus? Shouldn't the last consensus achieved version stand until a new consensus is arrived at. Instead you are bringing yourself into the edit issue by 'imposing the NEW POV version which does not have any consensus knowing full well that I can't revert it back. I am not going to - obviously, but many editors would feel at this stage they would have to bring in other older WB editors to revert it, so instead of having me objecting to consensus busting, multiple people would come back for a soccer match over the issue. 89.100.48.103 17:47, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm backing out now for a few days, but we all know someone such as Reinhold/AGR will revert it soon as always happened. I really think you should hold the old consensus version until something new is negotiated here. Me in or out will not affect the level of outrage non-US editors will point at this new change wo/ consensus. As long as that new version is there it will be a magnet. I think it is better that it is magnet for a handful of Bush supporters and others who confuse the arguments Is it torture with Is it justified - than a magnet for virtually the entire planet (including 69% of American's per CNN). 89.100.48.103 17:51, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Back to 89.100.48.103's original topic, what is the feeling of editors on using the words "controlled drowning"? Do people feel that this is inaccurate, imprecise, original research or too POV to one side or the other? I myself think it is fairly descriptive if the point of waterboarding is to introduce water into the lungs in a controlled fashion, but I am worried that we are pushing the use of a term that is not widely accepted or used. So from my view any official sources using the term controlled drowning would alleviate my worries. I am also surprised that 89.100.48.103 thinks that this term is POV towards the Bush administration given the fact that the term "controlled drowning" sounds like a scary form of torture to me. Remember 17:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Someone has added the qualification "simulated" again. This technique does not "simulate" anything; as we now know from the sources, the person is actually drowning (the process of simultaneous inhalation and ingestion of water is called "drowning" in English) and people have died as a result. Badagnani 19:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree that "simulated drowning" is a term that has been widely used in the media. I don't know where the term originally came from before it appeared in the media but from the sound of it (it seems euphemistic, like "collateral damage") it likely came from a government news release or document and was simply adopted without close examination. It would be good to do a Lexis-Nexis search and determine what, when, and by whom the first usage of the term "simulated drowning" was. Badagnani 19:41, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I would agree that the use of "simulated/simulating" is misleading. The suffocation/asphyxiation is not a simulation.
May I suggest a more direct definition:
Waterboarding is a torture technique that uses asphyxiation from forced water inhalation to evoke the instinctive fear of drowning.
or
Waterboarding is a torture technique that uses suffocation from forced water inhalation to evoke the instinctive fear of drowning.
Where:
Asphyxiation is the condition of being deprived of oxygen. Torture is an act by which severe pain or suffering is intentionally inflicted on a person for punishment, indimidation, coercion, or to elicit a confession.
Nospam150 05:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Alison, could you downgrade to Semi? The only real fighting is anons going at it with each other. • Lawrence Cohen 20:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
... again. Sorry about that but things have spiralled out of control again. One anon editor has now been blocked for 3RR. This time prot is indefinite until we can work something out here - Alison ❤ 20:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
According to wikipedia the page on Torture, the international definition of torture is:
"any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity."
Is anyone arguing that Waterboarding does not match this definition for some reason?
Waterboarding is specifically mentioned in Water_torture.
If a president announce that other forms of torture other than this type of water asphyxiation are not torture, Do we just update the Wikipedia pages accordingly? Are electrical shock, asphyxiation, heat, cold, noise, and sleep deprivation really "interrogation techniques", if performed by the US, and torture if performed by the bad guys?
Nospam150 ( talk) 19:10, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
It seems like a major dispute in this article is whether or not to classify waterboarding as torture. To deal with this situation I have made several proposals to help come up with a consensus. Please add support or objection below or add another proposal that you think will work best. Remember 21:36, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Other proposals?
It would really help if everyone refrained from arguing with each answer to the original query. My first choice is option 1, then 2 (not much difference, really). From WP:NPOV: "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, ..." The DOJ legal opinion has never been published; it's a secret. As an open encyclopedia we don't have to give any weight to secret opinions beyond mentioning their reported existence, especially where there are numerous published opinions to the contrary.
However, in the interest of avoiding endless edit wars, I can live with option 3, and have suggested language to that end in "Lede Proposal" above. I do have one issue with proposal 3 as described. We should not mention training exercises in the article lede. Any number of heinous acts are acceptable when done as part of a training exercise. It's a minor point at best, even for the body of the article. I find the last two options unacceptable. -- agr 23:46, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
If you believe that the waterboarding article is POV and deserves a tag, please put your explanation below. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Remember ( talk • contribs) 21:38, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
From NPR All Things Considered program, November 6, 2007: [14]
“ | Waterboarding is a process of controlled drowning used in the Spanish Inquisition and by tyrannical governments ever since.
For more than a century, it has been considered a war crime by the United States and prosecuted as such. The top legal officers of all the military services have testified that waterboarding is illegal under U.S. and international law. |
” |
Badagnani 23:24, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
That's like me saying, "Waterboarding is not torture" From CNN
In CNN interview, paper's Howard Kurtz noted radio network's taxpayer-funded leftward slant."
[ [15]]
That's quite some assertion. The CEO of NPR, Kevin Klose, used to run an agency of the U.S. government that was not exactly "liberal" in any way. By the way, check the byline (did you?); it says " Nina Totenberg." Badagnani 18:20, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
You claim the CEO Kevin Klose isn't liberally biased, so are you insuating that therefore Nina Totenberg is not biased? I would disagree with you. I would argue that she does not attempt to hide her political affiliation whatsoever. How about the hiring of a presidential candidate's daughter?
"No Conflict? NPR's Nina Totenberg Takes on John Edwards Daughter As Summer Intern" By Tim Graham | May 3, 2007 - 07:27 ET
"Here's another sign that public broadcasters aren't worried about the appearance of Democratic favoritism. National Public Radio reporter Nina Totenberg -- legendary (or infamous) for championing Anita Hill's unsubstantiated sexual harassment charges against Clarence Thomas, and then yawning at all harassment claims against Bill Clinton -- is hiring the daughter of liberal Democrat presidential candidate John Edwards as a summer intern, and her NPR bosses "gave the green light, since the election is still 18 months away."
The Washington Post gossip column that broke the story couldn't even get word from NPR as to whether Cate Edwards will stop making campaign appearances during the internship..."
So my statement still stands about NPR. Waterboarding appears to be a partisan issue, because it seems clear that each "side" has their own definition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.109.210.214 ( talk) 19:37, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
To answer your question, I believe the position that waterboarding is a form of "torture" or "controlled drowning" is a moderate or centrist position. One could also call this a conservative position, in light of the historical international and U.S. legal opinion on the matter--witness the recent statements from the Judge Advocate Generals (the chief attorneys of all four branches of the U.S. Armed Forces)--stating categorically that waterboarding, as a form of torture and thus a war crime, is impermissible for use by any U.S. military personnel. I notice that this position has not been mentioned earlier. Badagnani 19:59, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
My objection(s)- Calling waterboarding "torture" is an opinion, not a fact. The correct "term" is not 'controlled drowning;' it's waterboarding. I believe it's a partisan term because it seems (overwhelmingly) that both parties have distinct viewpoints on this technique. In my opinion (and many others share the same feelings, regardless of what you find in the mainstream media) waterboarding is a method of interrogation. Some could also refer to it as "coerced confessions".
I think for the simple fact that this issue is the subject of numerous heated debates (as evident of this discussion page, and in politics as well), that until there is a "clear-cut" winner, both terms (Method of interrogation & torture) should be used as the definition of waterboarding until this situation is resolved.
Why Controlled drowning is inappropriate,
Drowning is death as caused by suffocation when a liquid causes interruption of the body's absorption of oxygen from the air leading to asphyxia. The primary cause of death is hypoxia and acidosis leading to cardiac arrest.
The term drowning indicates death, no death here no drowning. Its akin to the often misused term electrocution. Some alternate wording should be used. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 20:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Reading this page I can't help but notice that people lose the focus of what this is about.
Respectfully Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 09:26, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Would you subscribe to: THIS DEFINITION then? It is about as logical as giving any weight to a torturer defining torture. Inertia Tensor 08:44, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Please add your DoJ source to the ones below and we can hash them all out methodically, else it will remain a slagging match by both of us, thanks. Inertia Tensor 09:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Waterboarding actually saves TERORRIST lives.
Think about this:
If there is no way to effectively interrogate terrorists, what incentive is there for the military to ever risk attempting to capture enemies alive? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.76.32.15 ( talk) 19:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Interesting tidbit for the article, Daniel Levin, Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel, underwent waterboarding so that he could understand it before he wrote an opinion on it. [16] Remember 19:11, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
When this page becomes unlocked, it should probably be worth noting the political commentators that supported the idea that the United States should waterboard suspects. Such as this one: [17] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Remember ( talk • contribs) 19:28, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
This subcat is NOT for the discussion of waterboarding.
I propose this topic only be unlocked when we have reached a concensus, AND written a resulting draft of the first paragraph in Talk, and it has been signed up on. Inertia Tensor 07:10, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
This subcat is NOT for the discussion of waterboarding, or hashing out a new version - make another sub-cat for that.
When we have reached sort sort of consensus, and have written a proposed replacement of the opener which people agree on, then please place the already-agreed version of it here, Allison or Chaser can then have a look at it, and consider whether it is safe to unlock. Inertia Tensor 07:10, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Let's try a methodical approach instead of this rolling row. The opinion of a wiki editor either way is not what counts here at all. These do.
Please restrict this to authoritative sources, and discussion of their authority or not, undue weight or not etc. We have to try a new approach. Inertia Tensor 09:15, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Most likely liberal democratic activists who find fault with this administration whenever possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.160.240.42 ( talk) 03:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
{{
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help)"The state offered . . . testimony of confessions made by the appellant, Fisher. . . [who], after the state had rested, introduced the sheriff, who testified that, he was sent for one night to come and receive a confession of the appellant in the jail; that he went there for that purpose; that when he reached the jail he found a number of parties in the jail; that they had the appellant down upon the floor, tied, and were administering the water cure, a specie of torture well known to the bench and bar of the country."
The Judgment of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, Chapter 8
The practice of torturing prisoners of war and civilian internees prevailed at practically all places occupied by Japanese troops, both in the occupied territories and in Japan. The Japanese indulged in this practice during the entire period of the Pacific War. Methods of torture were employed in all areas so uniformly as to indicate policy both in training and execution. Among these tortures were the water treatment, burning, electric shocks, the knee spread, suspension, kneeling on sharp instruments and flogging.
This is the international war crimes tribunal which tried Japanese war crimes - directly analogous to the tribunal which tried Nazi war crimes at Nuremberg. The United States participated, as did all the major Allied powers. The "water treatment" referenced is waterboarding, based on descriptions cited in " drop by drop". Worldworld 17:01, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
A description of the "water treatment" from the same page. From the sound of it basically identical to the US technique.
The so-called "water treatment" was commonly applied. The victim was bound or otherwise secured in a prone position; and water was forced through his mouth and nostrils into his lungs and stomach until he lost consciousness. Pressure was then applied, sometimes by jumping upon his abdomen to force the water out. The usual practice was to revive the victim and successively repeat the process. There was evidence that this torture was used in the following places: China, at Shanghai, Peiping and Nanking; French Indo-China, at Hanoi and Saigon; Malaya, at Singapore; Burma, at Kyaikto; Thailand, at Chumporn; Andaman Islands, at Port Blair; Borneo, at Jesselton; Sumatra, at Medan, Tadjong Karang and Palembank; Java, at Batavia, Bandung, Soerabaja and Buitennzong; Celebes, at Makassar; Portuguese Timor, at Ossu and Dilli; Philippines, at Manila, Nichols Field, Palo Beach and Dumaguete; Formosa, at Camp Haito; and in Japan, at Tokyo.
Worldworld 17:06, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/11/former-interrogator-enters-waterboarding-fray/index.html?ex=1355029200&en=24bb2ab7b1b414da&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tmaull ( talk • contribs) 21:11, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
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I've been trying to improve the "Technique" section. It has been surprisingly quite difficult to find a good source for a detailed description of waterboarding, as the United States practices it. Most news articles seem to gloss over the details, saying that water is poured over the person causing a gag reflex, or something of the like, but not saying anything much about how much water is used, for how long, whether it is poured into the mouth or the nose, whether the mouth or nose are covered, etc.
In fact, the description in most news articles could accurately be applied to a very mild form of interrogation, in which plastic wrap is put over a suspect's face, and water is poured over the person - but the water slides off the plastic wrap and does not cause gagging or asphyxiation. I had the impression for some time that this was what was happening, and I don't seem to be alone - the Fox News correspondent in the video I've linked asks if the water slid off the cellophane.
Anyway, as far as I know this mild interrogation has never been used (obviously it wouldn't be very effective), and the actual technique is basically what's shown on the Fox News segments (surprisingly, they seem to be pretty accurate here). Unfortunately I have been unable to find a really solid source for this belief (I think I did read an article which said so, but I don't remember where at all). For now I have edited the section to try to give an idea of the ambiguities involved, and to at least include a more concrete description, even if that description can't be solidly sourced at the moment.
As a final note, if I've done anything horrifically impolite by Wikipedia standards, then I apologize and ask for a polite correction - this is basically the first time I've tried to edit an article. Worldworld 05:24, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to see the dunking go away from this block, it was trashed out a while ago in [ [1]] and in edit summaries and I believe it was deemed a red herring, sometimes accidental, and sometimes a very deliberate effort at misinformation by some sectors in the US media. Inertia Tensor 21:38, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
New Fox News definition: http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding ? :-) Inertia Tensor 12:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Everything I have read on waterboarding before defines waterboarding as simulating drowning by pouring water on the victim over a cloth or other barrier. However, I recently read an article [2] which states that waterboarding as practiced by the US military is a form of actual, but controlled drowning, where the victim is forced to inhale water into the lungs. Does anyone know of any corroborating sources, and if so, should the information be included in this article, or perhaps there's another name for this kind of torture covered under a different article? -- Halloween jack 04:43, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Malcolm Nance, former SERE instructor really explains it well: "It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning. How much the victim is to drown depends on the desired result (in the form of answers to questions shouted into the victim’s face) and the obstinacy of the subject. A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs which show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience, to horrific suffocating punishment to the final death spiral." See http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/ 69.156.23.125 —Preceding comment was added at 17:46, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
the point of waterboarding is to seal the mouth and force water through the nose. the article does not emphasize this, instead it goes for the opposite, suggesting that there is a hole cut in celophane etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.192.12.135 ( talk) 22:02, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, how is it possible that you could know something that we don't know? Or something that is not in an article! Preposterous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.168.198.207 ( talk) 12:16, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Let me just add for the record that I am appalled that waterboarding, being a mock execution and a very real, prolonged, controlled drowning, has to be referencedly justified to be torture. If this is not torture, then the word has utterly lost its meaning. Falkvinge 16:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Seeing the comments here we need some clarification regarding many misconceptions
Respectfully Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 16:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Instead of "I think" why not look it up? Here is what U.S. law (18 USC 2340) actually says:
(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from— (A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering; (B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality; (C) the threat of imminent death; or (D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality;
The word "prolonged" refers to the long-term effects of torture, not the duration of the torture procedure itself, and "the threat of imminent death" is specifically listed as causing "prolonged mental harm." The one thing everyone seems to agree on is that waterboarding produces an intense fear of imminent death. I think we can rely on the plain meaning of the law here.-- agr ( talk) 20:04, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
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This article is great! Well-sourced, NPOV, informative, and reads very well. I came here after reading an article about the US Attorney General nominee, and learned quite a bit. Well done to all involved.
I have removed the "In Popular Culture" section, which stands out like a sore thumb in such an otherwise dandy article. Of course, if any of the regular editors here feel strongly about it, please revert by all means.
Cheers, ➪ HiDrNick! 20:19, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
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This is a wonderful example of where the Neutral in NPOV breaks down. Only a torture supporting weasel could for a moment contemplate calling waterboarding anything other than Torture. It is plain and simple Torture. To say other is to wander far Neutral and Objective. Do the thought experiment... allow me to strap you to a waterboard and commence... how long before you change your mind about whether it's torture or not? Any euphemistic "has been called torture", "forced interrogation technique" or its "someone's opinion that" is simple evil weaseling of the first order. It's torture, end of story.
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A Machiavellian who believes any means is justified by the ends, down to and including torture will find NPOV a convenient means to the end. Thus the Wikipedia merely becomes a propaganda broadsheet for the editor with the lowest morals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.37.96.11 ( talk) 00:12, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
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![]() | Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments and look in the archives before commenting. |
Could the new arrivals please desist in MASSIVE blanking and provoking of an edit war. Read talk, read the archives and stop engaging in massive unilateral blanking to suit your political masters. This DOES place a lot at the foot of the US, not is NOT BIAS, that is fact, the US is doing it right now, no one knows of any major uses that we can document. It starts by saying what waterboarding is - torture, and how it is done. If it has to mention the US it is only because it is who does it. If you do not want to be called torturers - DO NOT TORTURE. Please take your zero concensus unilateral blanking and edit waring elsewhere and stop filling this artcile with weasels. 89.100.48.103 01:09, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
This article arrived at a consensus long before you blew in with your politically motivated biases. It is obvious that you did not make any attempt to seek compromise, did not participate in talk until after you assaulted the article. It says this has generated a blanking of paragraphs, blasted the concept of consensus and provoked a serious edit war. Please desist in your highly disruptive editing and injection of gross bias, unsourced weasel words and general mayhem. Did you seriously expect editors not to revert you for not properly participating and attempting to impose your bias, POV and agenda? Inertia Tensor 01:38, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Dude. You can't even spell John Yoo properly. I don't think it's really worth my time debating the issue with someone who clearly has a poor grasp of the facts. All I'm trying to do is insert a modicum of NPOV in the article, seeing as there is a present live controversy on the waterboarding question. I have no political stake in this - I'm not even American. Wikipedia should reflect NPOV instead of coming down conclusively on one side or another of a debate, that's all there is to my edit, which did NOT say that w'boarding wasn't torture, or that it is. It merely says that many regard w'boarding to be torture, and makes no categorical claim that it "is" torture absence some authoritative source or law on the issue. NPOV is all I'm saying. Your taking one side, instead of adhering to NPOV, is not very wikipedesque of you. 220.255.115.209 01:59, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
No response? I guess the revelation that I am NOT American put a big hole in your "politically motivated" theory. Wikipedia also says to assume good faith - a courtesy I have not had extended to me. Instead, I was raked over the coals for daring to give the article a NPOV edit. Silly me. I should have known better than assume that my good faith edits would incur anything other than a hysterical reaction (see various examples above). 220.255.115.209 02:14, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
How about you read the article you are fighting on - just a suggestion. You might find THIS in it.
Just a suggestion... Inertia Tensor 03:51, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
In the current state of the article, I agree with the United States being mentioned in the initial section as the most recent media coverage. I do not find fault with this and believe it is pertinent information relating to this article. -- Pyrex238 02:31, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I also find it ridiculous that the entire technique sub heading is composed of only U.S. officials, and media outlets - again this is a bias attempt to associate the United States with ownership - this is what I'm talking about people. --
Pyrex238
02:43, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
This article contains blatant political biases. The purpose of this article is to define the technique, implementation, purpose, and history. Political biased viewers are intentionally placing the recent United State's allegations directly after the first sentence. That is absolutely absurd editing. The proper location for such material is under the History header, and United States sub section. Wiki viewers must control their biases when editing these articles. --
Pyrex238
02:04, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Again, more political bias being thrown back into the article. The world 'charged' is used to describe nothing more than allegations, and speculations. Wikipedia's purpose is to provide an unbiased statement of fact to it's viewers. Using the word 'charged' is insinuating that this was a ruling of a court, when it is no more than an allegation. These kinds of words are intentionally used to steer an unbiased viewer into believing something more than speculative allegations had taken place. I have absolutely no problem with the word being used if it were supported by factual evidence, but none is supplied, and it is continually edited to suit a particular bias. Wikipedia is fast becoming a wildly anti-american biased source for information, and this article is further evidence of this. I do not feel that an article regarding technique of torture which was invented 100 years before the inception of the United States should be written in a manner to suggest the United States is solely responsible for it. No matter what your political view is of the U.S., or it's political mindset - one must realize that every bit of information contained in this article in relation to this technique is entirely speculation and none of which has ever been proven, or had a court ruling to verify the allegations. Furthermore, I submit an example as the quote from Jimmy Carter - win which he states "I don't think it, I know it." That's a very strong quote and opinion from an ex US President, yet again there is zero facts to support this, and it is coming from a president which is widely regarded in historical fact as being incredibly anti-military. You will see this is the general temperament of the entire U.S. portion of the article - opinions, media coverage, and speculation. If Wiki were in fact a recognized encyclopedia, all of this information would be consider speculation and removed. Facts and facts alone should be contained in this article. Please, leave the political bias on youtube. -- Pyrex238 02:09, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Inertia Tensor - Sorry I deleted your reply to me earlier, I forgot to log in, and when I did I had the wrong section of text selected to undo. I respect your opinion, but you state the U.S. has murdered a million people? That's ridiculous.. seriously, what in the world are you talking about? Pyrex238 03:20, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I've removed claims that state categorically that waterboarding constitutes "torture". Absent an authoritative law, Congressional determination, or ICJ opinion that waterboarding constitutes torture, retaining NPOV is essential. Hence the compromise edit that states that "many" have held that waterboarding is torture, without coming down on one side or the other of the controversy.
Note that the compromise does NOT state that waterboarding is not torture. It simply avoids stating categorically that it is. This is as NPOV as it gets. That warring editors have attempted to come down conclusively on one side of the controversy, is I think, an indicator that POV is being pushed. 220.255.115.209 03:42, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
You all should immediately understand as well that this article isn't Waterboarding in the United States, its Waterboarding, globally. This article should never, full stop, say waterboarding is or isn't torture, because there will never be such an answer. We can only report what reliable sources say. Our own views or perceptions aren't allowed here--that is NPOV. • Lawrence Cohen 05:39, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Per request on WP:RPP, the article has been fully protected for a few days. From the contributions, it's not simple anon vandalism but a full-on content dispute. Folks - please try to resolve the matter here first before warring about the article - Alison ❤ 04:02, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Could these be TOR/open proxies? • Lawrence Cohen 05:08, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
As we obviously are not allowed to decide this per NPOV and OR, this is the current version Alison locked the article on. I found this today, and saw the state of things, and offered up this as lead sentences to try to compromise:
Now, the seven (!) sources listed are all people that could be safely and extremely uncontroversially called "experts" on the matter, ranging from legal experts, lawyers, Central Intellegience Agency staff, and ex-United States Presidents. I think it's pretty unequivocal and NPOV that waterboarding has "been called torture by numerous experts." Does anyone disagree? Why, based on Wikipedia polices. Please explain. Might as well start at the top of the article to fix this insanely useless edit war. • Lawrence Cohen 05:20, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
How about
Just a suggestion. Respectfully Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 13:14, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I like this. Let me ask for this edit to be installed, it meets NPOV perfectly that I can see, and is completely verifiable, so no valid objections under policy can exist. • Lawrence Cohen 15:28, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}} Can the opening line in this article to be changed to Nescio's suggestion?
Waterboarding is a form of controlled drowning used to extract information. Numerous experts have described this technique as torture.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]
Thanks. 1-7 sources are the existing ones already in place. • Lawrence Cohen 15:28, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm looking for help from anyone in answering these two questions:
(Q1) If there are numerous sources that say "X is true" but no one can find sources that say "X is false", is it fair for a Wikipedia article to simply state "X is true"?
(Q2) Has anyone found any sources that say "waterboarding is not torture"?
Ka-Ping Yee 12:22, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
The effectiveness "discussion" isn't neutral. It only gives the point of view that waterboarding is not effective, although some experts will say that it is. I realize such claims were included earlier in the article, but so were the doubts of its effectiveness. I propose that the "effectiveness" section either be removed for redundancy's sake, or be expanded to include viewpoints that differ from "it doesn't work." Otherwise, this page leaves the impression that "waterboarding isn't effective" is pretty much universally agreed upon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.58.248.32 ( talk) 15:17, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
In the <a href=" http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article2368990.ece">Independent news article</a>, the brief story makes claims and cites unnamed legal experts and an unnamed CIA officer (who is contradicted by CIA officers who are named elsewhere in the wiki article). If "legal experts" aren't named nor their qualifications given, can we really rely on their assumed "expertise", even if the unknown experts were cited in an otherwise reliable newspaper? I mean, if a DUI lawyer says, "I think waterboarding is very effective," does this mean he can be cited as a "legal expert"? If I sound like I'm nit-picking, I'm not trying to. But verifiability is key, and Independent reporter Andrew Gumbel is normally tasked to covering Hollywood stories, not political / military / legal issues. I would like to see a better source for this story's claims, is all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.58.248.33 ( talk) 16:05, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}}
I suggest wikifying the word " torture" in the first section so that readers can easily compare the description of waterboarding with the actual definition in the torture article. -- Risacher 15:28, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
{{ Editprotected}} Any endorsements for changing this passage:
To:
Change is in bold, addition of "alleged". These men have not been convicted in any internationally recognized court of law that is authorized to name them as war criminals. This is per WP:BLP. • Lawrence Cohen 15:40, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
The overall tone and writing on this article is very specific to the United States. While we're a big nation, we're only one, and waterboarding is hardly unique to us. A pretty compelling section on the US and waterboarding can certainly be built, but we need to generalize and internationalize the article heavily. The lead is basically, "Waterboarding is this. The United States... The United States... The United States... The United States... something else, The United States... something else." That is a bit of undue weight. Just a thought. • Lawrence Cohen 16:52, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I would like to propose a new intro paragraph for this article that avoids the "waterboarding is X" construction and I think covers the various views in an NPOV way, without giving undue weight to the self-serving Bush position. I have not added refs to the last two sentences, pending some consensus on language. (refs make things hard to edit. There are plenty, including the last few days coverage by the NY Times).
-- agr 17:26, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
To narrow the debate a little, Can we all agree that the beginning of the article should read as follows below (and then it can get into the torture categorization question). I, myself think this is the most NPOV way to introduce the subject (nice job agr!). Remember 20:22, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Editing Talk:Waterboarding (section) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaith Ka-Ping's suggested Nescio intro is that "controlled drowning" is a term that I could not find defined anywhere authoritative so to say that "Waterboarding is a form of controlled drowning" becomes problematic. This is not to say controlled drowning is or isn't a widely accepted term, I just can find anything authoritative that defines this term. Remember 20:51, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
The above lead doesn't provide the context under which waterboarding might occur, and as others have somewhat stated "a form of controlled drowning"? Are there other forms of controlled drowning? Drowning is defined as DEATH by suffocation/asphyxiation....Since waterboarding doesn't induce death, I would suggest that it is not a form of drowning. Why doesn't the article open with "Waterboarding is a technique applied to prisoners to make them believe they are drowning. The fear of drowning is exploited by the prisoners' captors in order to extract information from, punish, weaken/break the spirit of, or reeducate the prisoner. The effectiveness and legality of Waterboarding are subject to debate." Jotorious 22:16, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
The process is "drowning" but "near-drowning" seems accurate. Nonetheless, I would be very surprised if no prisoner ever died from undergoing this procedure, either in the past or present. Badagnani 03:44, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
May I again offer a suggestion
Respectfully Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 13:17, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
As much of the conflict swirled around the lead section, what other issues do people have? Maybe each person post a concise summary, and we can then pick apart problems. • Lawrence Cohen 19:55, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
My lay understanding is that the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th amendment is currently interpreted quite literally, and that constitutional protections are apply to all persons within the jurisdiction, regardless of citizenship, though I can't right now find a specific case citation regarding equal protection application to legal non-citizen aliens with respect to criminal proceedings....the U.S. Constitution's ban on cruel and unusual punishment, however this applies solely to United States citizens, as the U.S. Constitution does not protect the rights of non-citizens.
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...however this applies solely to United States citizens, as the U.S. Constitution does not protect the rights of non-citizens <\blockquote>.
This recent article about waterboarding, which outlines its teaching in the U.S. and its practice and effects in some detail, would add greatly to this article. It also describes the experience of Henri Alleg, one of the most prominent examples of someone to have been subjected to this technique, speaking about his experience. I don't believe Alleg is mentioned at all in the article, but he should be. Badagnani 20:48, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
It would be great to have input about this point. Badagnani 18:28, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Done. If the quote is too long perhaps it could go in a section listing personal accounts of being waterboarded. There seem to be few who have written about this in detail other than Alleg and Nance. Badagnani 18:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
The section on effectiveness is US-centric, modern-centric, and generic to torture in the large, not just waterboarding; as such, I'd recommend it be deleted and replaced by a single link earlier in the discussion. I'm not seeing a good link on torture or its sub-articles, but I highly doubt that the waterboarding article is the place to talk about the effectiveness of torture in interrogations. Bhudson 22:07, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
The question is whether torture is "binary", i.e. whether a given action IS or IS NOT torture. This makes it simple, both ethically and politically. The people of the world can brand an action as "torture" or declare that it is "not torture". These will be our only two choices.
A simple choice gives us simple options. A given country either calls the action torture and bans it, or denies that it is torture and permits it. A murky middle ground can also emerge in which the country refuses to say whether an action (like waterboarding) is "torture" or not. This would let them continue to uphold the prohibition against " torture" while not making any definitive statement one way or the other on certain specific actions.
A more complex analysis is also possible. The people of the world can assign "levels of severity" to various uncomfortable, distressing, painful or mutilating actions. Each country might even have its own definition of what is permitted. In several African countries, the private parts of young girls are routinely mutilated but there is hardly any worldwide condemnation of this action as "torture". (Oddly enough, male circumcision has attracted much criticism.) In pre-war Iraq, the government removing the earlobes of prisoners (as a coercive measure); the U.S. considers this "torture" and has never condoned it.
The question of waterboarding then becomes - rather then whether it is simply torture or not - a question of whether it is too severe a practice.
The United States frequently presents itself as a model of civilized democracy and is often considered a leader in the field of human rights. Thus many people look to the U.S. as an arbiter and pacesetter for the ethical question of prisoner abuse. Perhaps that is why world attention has been focused on the issue of post-war Iraq and the U.S. treatment of prisoners.
What makes this article so difficult to write is that there is no universal standard of human rights which all countries (and all advocates and partisan groups) can agree on. We could make our writing task easier if we as writers would each give up any idea of making the article reflect our own views. Instead, we might agree to have the article describe all the major views which are "out there".
Here is a possible outline on the "torture" question regarding waterboarding:
Which other Wikipedia writers feel that this would be a good outline, and that we could remove the "protection" from the article? -- Uncle Ed 13:16, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
It seems that the classification of waterboarding as " torture" has legal implications similar to those of classifying forced migration or mass murder as " genocide". Treaties as well as national law come into play.
For example:
We can draw up similar proofs for civilian officials who order waterboarding. And there are parallels for countries and genocide.
The key point here is that the main conclusion is that someone (or some country) should be condemned and punished.
Governments which want to coerce prisoners, or which want to displace or kill unwanted populations, generally do NOT want to concede that these actions should be condemned. So they resist classification of these actions in any ethical or legal category which merits condemnation.
Perhaps then our strategy as Wikipedia article co-authors is to describe the views of various parties (A) who classify waterboarding etc. as "bad" and "worthy of punishment", as well as (B) who fail to agree with this classification or even dispute it actively. -- Uncle Ed 17:38, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Malcolm Nance, the U.S.'s chief officer in charge of teaching waterboarding, has just stated that waterboarding is absolutely a form of torture. Please read this article, in which his tesimony is summarized, before commenting further about your opinions on the matter, thanks. Badagnani 18:34, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
The original article is here. Badagnani 18:38, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Did you read the article straight through? He states that he himself has been waterboarded and that it is bad enough even though he (and his trainees) know what is coming. For a prisoner who may never have undergone this procedure, it causes extremely severe physical and mental stress, and is torture.
This is the passage in question:
“ | The carnival-like he-said, she-said of the legality of Enhanced Interrogation Techniques has become a form of doublespeak worthy of Catch-22. Having been subjected to them all, I know these techniques, if in fact they are actually being used, are not dangerous when applied in training for short periods. However, when performed with even moderate intensity over an extended time on an unsuspecting prisoner – it is torture, without doubt. Couple that with waterboarding and the entire medley not only “shock the conscience” as the statute forbids -it would terrify you. Most people can not stand to watch a high intensity kinetic interrogation. One has to overcome basic human decency to endure watching or causing the effects. The brutality would force you into a personal moral dilemma between humanity and hatred. It would leave you to question the meaning of what it is to be an American. | ” |
Source: [7]
Subjecting U.S. personnel to tear gas, pepper spray, Tasers, or waterboarding is a form of training and, if I read your comment correctly, it was meant to be sarcastic, minimizing the physical and mental injury caused by this technique by pointing out that some U.S. counterterrorism personnel undergo it for short periods as part of their training. Correct me if your intent differed from my interpretation. Badagnani 18:55, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't follow you. You're turning the tables to imply that war crimes charges could be brought against Nance for subjecting U.S. counterterrorism staff to waterboarding as part of their training? This doesn't seem particularly relevant in light of the fact that this technique is being used in the "real world." For some reason you prefer to "turn the tables" against Nance, a la the Swift Boats, rather than actually address his commentary about this technique's adoption by U.S. personnel and the possible repercussions this may have on the U.S. (as well as on the individuals against whom the technique is used). Very strange. Regarding my use of the word "stress," thanks for pointing out that this term is not used in the actual conventions against torture. However, I believe mental torture (i.e. torture that inflicts lasting psychological harm) is certainly a form of torture, and is prohibited by the Geneva Conventions. I don't have those Conventions in front of me but you seem to project the sense that you are very familiar with them. Badagnani 19:08, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
TGFW (Thank God for Wikipedia). Here is the quote from the Third Geneva Convention. You are correct that the term "stress" is not used.
“ | No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind. | ” |
Badagnani 19:13, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
It seems that the consensus of Wikipedia writers here is that waterboarding is torture. But the question is how to characterize the US view. Is there any American official on record as expressing an opinion on the ethics or legality of waterboarding? I'm looking for something like the following:
Without a defininitive official statement, we will be reduced to saying something like:
Sorry, no more time for this issue today; this is my best advice. Go to it, fellas. :-) -- Uncle Ed 19:56, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
“ | ...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. | ” |
“ | ...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. | ” |
Badagnani 21:58, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
“ | ...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. | ” |
“ | ...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. | ” |
Badagnani 23:13, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
No, of course I am not saying that. I'm not sure I can understand the fervency you seem to have to show (wish?) that this practice is not torture. It's certainly very strange, in light of the evidence presented here, again and again. According to our own definition of torture, as stated in the lead of the Torture article (should I present it again, as you seem not to have read it?), inflicting severe physical or mental pain or suffering for the purpose of eliciting information from a prisoner is "torture," whether it is brief or not. You had stated, emphatically (and quite wrongly) that this practice is not dangerous and cannot lead to the death of the subject, hence my introduction of the concept of waterboarding that is conducted for an extended period, which certainly carries the risk of death to the subject. It's interesting that you continue to questions of me, while you fail to address the ones I have raised. Badagnani 05:02, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Badagnani says that waterboarding is torture "by definition". The argument has been repeated ad nauseum, so I'd like some clarification. Can we have the definition that says waterboarding "is" torture? Thank you. 220.255.36.206 23:54, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
It appears that no definition is forthcoming. Since Badagnani is unable to provide the definition he claims to have stating that "waterboarding is torture", I'll have to reluctantly conclude that his claim is false. 220.255.36.206 06:12, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I hate to repeat what I already said, but the definition of torture under US law includes the treat of imminent death, specifically, 19 USC 2340 reads: "'torture' means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control; (2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—...(C) the threat of imminent death;..."The relevant language in 19 USC 2340 reads: "'torture' means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control; (2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—...(C) the threat of imminent death;..." Note that no physical pain is required. And every description of waterboarding says that the victim is made to believe they are going to die. -- agr 10:09, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Above, 220.255.36.206 writes: "Except that there is no threat of imminent death since death isn't actually imminent. The perceived threat of death is not the same thing as actual threat of death (Russian Roulette, for example)." This is nonsense.
1. Claim: "Death isn't actually imminent." False, for simple reasons:
2. Claim: The perceived threat of death is not torture because "it is not the same thing as actual threat of death." Also false:
I'm not saying you can't make other arguments if you wish. But this particular contention -- that waterboarding fails to meet the "threat of imminent death" qualification for torture -- is straightforwardly invalid. Either one of the two arguments just presented is sufficient to reject this contention. Ka-Ping Yee 05:03, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Oops. I guess there's no need now. I've just found out that the Army Field Manual you link to is obsolete and has actually been superseded: this is the latest version of FM 34-52 (now FM 2-22.3), published on September 6, 2006. It's searchable. And nowhere does it state that "mock execution is considered torture". It says that mock execution is prohibited, but that's very different from saying that mock execution "is considered torture".
And to add to what was mentioned above, Army Field Manuals apply to DOD/army personnel only. This is specifically stated in the Preface. So your citation is irrelevant anyway.
Your claim is false. Your second point is as invalid as your first. 220.255.36.206 07:27, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Stay on topic, please. This thread is specifically about the disputed claims (and I quote 220.255.36.206): "there is no threat of imminent death since death isn't actually imminent" and "Since death does not actually occur, there is no imminent threat of death". Ka-Ping Yee 17:41, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Again, stay on topic. Name-calling your opponents "POV-pushers" does not constitute an argument. I do not know if you intended to apply that label to me; nonetheless, as I have refrained from calling you names, I request that you extend me the same respect. And allow me to remind you again, this thread is specifically about your claim that, unless actual death occurs, there can be no threat of imminent death. This thread is not a general argument about all the possible reasons that waterboarding is or is not torture. This is just about your stated interpretation of the phrase "threat of imminent death."
Now, on the topic: to claim that actual death is a necessary part of "threat of imminent death" is to fail to understand the meanings of the words "threat" and "imminent". It appears that you treat the term as if these words have no meaning at all. To demonstrate this let me ask you a few questions:
Person A is strangling Person B. Person A has been strangling Person B, and Person B has been unable to breathe, for the past 60 seconds. Person B is struggling to escape and running out of oxygen.
Ka-Ping Yee 23:13, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
You wrote: "No. Because Person A halts the process and does not allow death to occur." I did not say that Person A would halt. I think you misunderstood my example. This is all I specified: "Person A has been strangling Person B, and Person B has been unable to breathe, for the past 60 seconds." Like anyone else, Person B does not have the ability to predict the future.
At that moment, what is Person B experiencing? Imagine yourself in the position of person B, if you like. How would you describe what you are experiencing?
With the scenario clarified, would you please answer my questions again?
Thank you.
(By the way, the mere occurrence of an argument does not establish the plausibility of anything. I can argue all day that 2+2=3 and that mere act of arguing does not make it plausible. Plausibility is established by evidence and reasoning.) Ka-Ping Yee 02:39, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
There is nothing to address in that example. We both agree that a person playing Russian Roulette experiences a threat of imminent death. That is not in dispute.
Where we disagree is that I believe a person being strangled experiences a threat of imminent death regardless of whether the strangulation stops at some point in the future, and you do not. I am merely trying to learn exactly what your position is with respect to the meaning of "threat of imminent death." That is all that is on the table in this thread.
Based on what you've said so far, my understanding of your position is that if someone is strangled for a minute and a half, and released alive, then at no point did they experience a threat of imminent death; and if someone is strangled for five minutes until they die, then they did experience a threat of imminent death all along. Before we continue, let me make sure I have that right. Does that correctly correspond to your understanding of "threat of imminent death"? Ka-Ping Yee 21:28, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Guys, this is way off into OR-land. Unless someone has a reliable source for the theory that there's no threat of imminent death unless someone actually dies, this discussion doesn't belong on Wikipedia. -- agr 01:25, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying your position: "My position is that if practice X involves strangling someone and halting before death, then at no point did they experience a threat of imminent death." This is really quite an incredible position. (May I even say breathtakingly incredible? Ha ha.) Your position requires that strangling victims see into the future -- that they somehow predict, accurately, while they are being strangled, whether the strangling will halt before they die, and that these events that have not happened yet actually change what they are experiencing in the present. Since your argument depends on making information travel back in time, it can be safely dismissed. Ka-Ping Yee 02:24, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
If someone is driving, he or she is often technically under the threat of imminent death (see car accident for details), and thus in some people's reasoning a person who is driving is torturing himself or herself. As for the proverbial person on a roller coaster, the vast majority of people make it out safely, but there have been a few deaths on amusement park rides "plunging towards the ground" or making other weird moves, occasionally due to drunken stupidity on the part of the deceased. Nonetheless, in both cases, people aim and expect to come out safely. Thus, shouldn't we be talking more about a perceived threat of imminent death, as well as the actual threat of imminent death? Perceptions matter. The person being waterboarded is in the midst of an incomplete (most of the time) drowning, yet there is often the perceived (and sometimes actual) threat of imminent death. Moreover, the person is made to feel pain or discomfort deliberately, for the purpose of punishing or extracting information (often a pretext to punish the same person), and that satisfies my definition of torture (which could in principle extend to any means of deliberate hurting or discomforting of captives for a period longer than an instant). 204.52.215.107 14:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
[9] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Remember ( talk • contribs) 17:06, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
And now, after that digression, back to the original question: is waterboarding torture? The answer, according to the definition of torture in our own article on the subject (as defined by international law), is yes.
“ | ...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. | ” |
Badagnani 01:07, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
As of now, Badagnani is unable to answer two direct questions.
Where does your definition say that "waterboarding is torture"? Please provide a quote.
(Badagnani doesn't say.)
Where does your definition say that waterboarding is an "act" that inflicts "severe pain or suffering"? Please provide a quote.
(Again, no answer.)
At least one source quoted by Randy above states that the (physical) pain was "not so painful". In other words, not "severe".
Since Badagnani is unable to provide supporting quotes for his claim that waterboarding "is" torture, we'll have to conclude, sadly, that his claim is false. Nothwithstanding his numerous, spurious claims to the contrary. 220.255.114.59 01:50, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
From WP:NPOV
The neutral point of view is a point of view that is neutral, that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject. Debates within topics are described, represented and characterized, but not engaged in. Background is provided on who believes what and why, and which view is more popular. Detailed articles might also contain the mutual evaluations of each viewpoint, but studiously refrain from asserting which is better. One can think of unbiased writing as the fair, analytical description of all relevant sides of a debate, including the mutual perspectives and the published evidence. When editorial bias toward one particular point of view can be detected, the article needs to be fixed.
It seems to me that Wikipedia is not the place to argue whether waterboarding is torture. There are notable people who say that it is not, so that viewpoint should be included. This opinion is substantially the minority opinion, so that should also be made clear.
Whether waterboarding is torture "in reality" or "by definition" actually seems to me to be irrelevant from the neutral point of view. Even disagreements which contradict obvious facts or simple logic must be included, if they are held by notable authorities. The point is that what is obvious or simple to one person, might be non-obvious or obviously incorrect to another. Even among ourselves, several points of view on this topic are being argued. Worldworld 04:34, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree the the media reports of the DOJ opinion belongs in the lede and I proposed specific language that does so above under "Proposed Lede." None the less, we can point out that by all reports waterboading causes intense fear of imminent death and that that is one of the definitions of torture under the plain meaning of 18 USC 2340. We should not engage in speculation on how DOJ comes to its reported conclusion. -- agr 10:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
220.255.114.59 writes: "The opinion that waterboarding is not torture is held by the US Department of Justice". I am aware of no such opinion. Please either provide a reference to a US DOJ opinion on the record that says "waterboarding is not torture" or retract your claim. Ka-Ping Yee 19:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Item 3 is immediately dismissed, as it fails to be a reliable source for the DOJ's official opinion in many ways: it is third-hand; it is a belief about what lawyers will say, not what they actually have said; and it is about unspecified lawyers that the administration "stocks" the DOJ with, not the DOJ as an institution.
An authorization of waterboarding is not equivalent to a declaration that waterboarding is not torture. Surely you can see that these two things are different. If you wish to claim that the US DOJ has authorized waterboarding then your items 1, 2, 4, and 5 certainly support that claim. However your claim is that the DOJ is an authoritative source for the position that waterboarding is not torture, for which none of these citations apply. Item 2 only says the memo "did not conflict with administration promises", which is a general claim about the memo as a whole, dependent on what the speaker believed the administration's promises were, and quite different from a direct statement that waterboarding is not torture. All your other quotations don't even mention torture.
If you have other sources, please provide them. Otherwise, you really don't have a case here. Ka-Ping Yee 01:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
If waterboarding fits the definition of torture, then it is torture. If the current article for torture doesn't change (as of 11/05/07, 9:30am pst), then the definition of torture indicates that waterboarding is torture. Any person can have a different idea of what is torture, be it Joe Common Man or President of the U.S., but without a valid logical reason, the current definition stands. If one believes that waterboarding is not torture then one needs to have valid reasons on why the definition of torture needs to be changed. The focus, if it hasn't been obvious by now, is wikipedias definition of torture. I can not detect any errors in logic in the postulate that waterboarding is torture. If one believes that waterboarding is not torture then one also disagrees with wikipedias definition of torture. As it stands, any debate about whether or not waterboarding is torture seems erroneous. Change the definition of torture and then one can debate whether or not waterboarding is torture. Sorry for the heavy handedness. -- Lincoln F. Stern 17:44, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Once again I must state that given the current definitions of torture and waterboarding, waterboarding is torture. waterboarding meets the definition of torture. It is a clear logical conclusion. Read the description for torture, then read the description of waterboarding. Logic, by its definition, is unbiased. The only way waterboarding can not be torture is if the current definitions of either one, or both, change. -- Lincoln F. Stern 16:40, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
User 220.255.112.159, the description of what constitutes torture is, in part, descriptive of the usage of waterboarding. There is no side to logic. Either a statement is true or it isn't. When an idea is accepted to mean something, and one group wishes to change that definition, it is then up to said group to provide proof to back up their claim. It is not up to the general public to have to prove or disprove any claim forwarded without any proof supporting the claim. The United States Department of Justice has probably made mistakes in the past. Either if they had not, it would be foolish for anyone to accept their claim at face value without proof. All I have seen from the DOJ is, basically, waterboarding is not torture. I have not seen an explanation of why it should not be considered torture. If the reason for something is "because they say so", well that is not a valid proof. -- Lincoln F. Stern 04:27, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
How exactly does waterboarding differ from water cure. Is waterboarding a subset of water cure? Remember 17:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
wrt. 1st §: waterboarding can't be interrogation, only a technique to support (or defect, depending on pov) the interrogation process. i think calling it interrogation is factually incorrect.
-- .~. 84.133.80.66 22:46, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Are blogs published by reliable news sources considered valid sources? One of the claims in the article (that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed had been waterboarded in the presence of a female CIA supervisor) is sourced to an ABCnews blog 'The Blotter'.
Also, reference 45 is sourced to a blog. Does anyone object to its removal? Thanks. 220.255.112.159 05:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I received a rather nasty post (which I repoponded accordingly to) in my talk page from Remember complaining of POV and demanding I use the talk page, which I have been. Ironically, this user has NOT used talk at all. Anyway, I have rolled back the revoltingly POV weasel words creeping in. Considering we are talking about clearly defined torture, I find this attempt to water down such an horrific crime to make it more politically palatable to a handful of war criminals and a rogue regime as an utterly unconscionable act, and certainly not appropriate for an encyclopedia. I suspect that even if Red State described this as "Controlled Drowning" there would be an uproar. I propose to revert any such weasel word on site. I suspect that the body of people here in talk seems like they would agree. 89.100.48.103 17:00, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Allison, Not that I have behaved well - I know I really was out off line in that war a few days ago - however, I really don't think it is appropriate for you to revert it as I have contended that that version is what was stable for a long time until someone else brought in the controlled drowning business without seeking consensus? Shouldn't the last consensus achieved version stand until a new consensus is arrived at. Instead you are bringing yourself into the edit issue by 'imposing the NEW POV version which does not have any consensus knowing full well that I can't revert it back. I am not going to - obviously, but many editors would feel at this stage they would have to bring in other older WB editors to revert it, so instead of having me objecting to consensus busting, multiple people would come back for a soccer match over the issue. 89.100.48.103 17:47, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm backing out now for a few days, but we all know someone such as Reinhold/AGR will revert it soon as always happened. I really think you should hold the old consensus version until something new is negotiated here. Me in or out will not affect the level of outrage non-US editors will point at this new change wo/ consensus. As long as that new version is there it will be a magnet. I think it is better that it is magnet for a handful of Bush supporters and others who confuse the arguments Is it torture with Is it justified - than a magnet for virtually the entire planet (including 69% of American's per CNN). 89.100.48.103 17:51, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Back to 89.100.48.103's original topic, what is the feeling of editors on using the words "controlled drowning"? Do people feel that this is inaccurate, imprecise, original research or too POV to one side or the other? I myself think it is fairly descriptive if the point of waterboarding is to introduce water into the lungs in a controlled fashion, but I am worried that we are pushing the use of a term that is not widely accepted or used. So from my view any official sources using the term controlled drowning would alleviate my worries. I am also surprised that 89.100.48.103 thinks that this term is POV towards the Bush administration given the fact that the term "controlled drowning" sounds like a scary form of torture to me. Remember 17:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Someone has added the qualification "simulated" again. This technique does not "simulate" anything; as we now know from the sources, the person is actually drowning (the process of simultaneous inhalation and ingestion of water is called "drowning" in English) and people have died as a result. Badagnani 19:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree that "simulated drowning" is a term that has been widely used in the media. I don't know where the term originally came from before it appeared in the media but from the sound of it (it seems euphemistic, like "collateral damage") it likely came from a government news release or document and was simply adopted without close examination. It would be good to do a Lexis-Nexis search and determine what, when, and by whom the first usage of the term "simulated drowning" was. Badagnani 19:41, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I would agree that the use of "simulated/simulating" is misleading. The suffocation/asphyxiation is not a simulation.
May I suggest a more direct definition:
Waterboarding is a torture technique that uses asphyxiation from forced water inhalation to evoke the instinctive fear of drowning.
or
Waterboarding is a torture technique that uses suffocation from forced water inhalation to evoke the instinctive fear of drowning.
Where:
Asphyxiation is the condition of being deprived of oxygen. Torture is an act by which severe pain or suffering is intentionally inflicted on a person for punishment, indimidation, coercion, or to elicit a confession.
Nospam150 05:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Alison, could you downgrade to Semi? The only real fighting is anons going at it with each other. • Lawrence Cohen 20:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
... again. Sorry about that but things have spiralled out of control again. One anon editor has now been blocked for 3RR. This time prot is indefinite until we can work something out here - Alison ❤ 20:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
According to wikipedia the page on Torture, the international definition of torture is:
"any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity."
Is anyone arguing that Waterboarding does not match this definition for some reason?
Waterboarding is specifically mentioned in Water_torture.
If a president announce that other forms of torture other than this type of water asphyxiation are not torture, Do we just update the Wikipedia pages accordingly? Are electrical shock, asphyxiation, heat, cold, noise, and sleep deprivation really "interrogation techniques", if performed by the US, and torture if performed by the bad guys?
Nospam150 ( talk) 19:10, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
It seems like a major dispute in this article is whether or not to classify waterboarding as torture. To deal with this situation I have made several proposals to help come up with a consensus. Please add support or objection below or add another proposal that you think will work best. Remember 21:36, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Other proposals?
It would really help if everyone refrained from arguing with each answer to the original query. My first choice is option 1, then 2 (not much difference, really). From WP:NPOV: "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, ..." The DOJ legal opinion has never been published; it's a secret. As an open encyclopedia we don't have to give any weight to secret opinions beyond mentioning their reported existence, especially where there are numerous published opinions to the contrary.
However, in the interest of avoiding endless edit wars, I can live with option 3, and have suggested language to that end in "Lede Proposal" above. I do have one issue with proposal 3 as described. We should not mention training exercises in the article lede. Any number of heinous acts are acceptable when done as part of a training exercise. It's a minor point at best, even for the body of the article. I find the last two options unacceptable. -- agr 23:46, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
If you believe that the waterboarding article is POV and deserves a tag, please put your explanation below. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Remember ( talk • contribs) 21:38, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
From NPR All Things Considered program, November 6, 2007: [14]
“ | Waterboarding is a process of controlled drowning used in the Spanish Inquisition and by tyrannical governments ever since.
For more than a century, it has been considered a war crime by the United States and prosecuted as such. The top legal officers of all the military services have testified that waterboarding is illegal under U.S. and international law. |
” |
Badagnani 23:24, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
That's like me saying, "Waterboarding is not torture" From CNN
In CNN interview, paper's Howard Kurtz noted radio network's taxpayer-funded leftward slant."
[ [15]]
That's quite some assertion. The CEO of NPR, Kevin Klose, used to run an agency of the U.S. government that was not exactly "liberal" in any way. By the way, check the byline (did you?); it says " Nina Totenberg." Badagnani 18:20, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
You claim the CEO Kevin Klose isn't liberally biased, so are you insuating that therefore Nina Totenberg is not biased? I would disagree with you. I would argue that she does not attempt to hide her political affiliation whatsoever. How about the hiring of a presidential candidate's daughter?
"No Conflict? NPR's Nina Totenberg Takes on John Edwards Daughter As Summer Intern" By Tim Graham | May 3, 2007 - 07:27 ET
"Here's another sign that public broadcasters aren't worried about the appearance of Democratic favoritism. National Public Radio reporter Nina Totenberg -- legendary (or infamous) for championing Anita Hill's unsubstantiated sexual harassment charges against Clarence Thomas, and then yawning at all harassment claims against Bill Clinton -- is hiring the daughter of liberal Democrat presidential candidate John Edwards as a summer intern, and her NPR bosses "gave the green light, since the election is still 18 months away."
The Washington Post gossip column that broke the story couldn't even get word from NPR as to whether Cate Edwards will stop making campaign appearances during the internship..."
So my statement still stands about NPR. Waterboarding appears to be a partisan issue, because it seems clear that each "side" has their own definition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.109.210.214 ( talk) 19:37, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
To answer your question, I believe the position that waterboarding is a form of "torture" or "controlled drowning" is a moderate or centrist position. One could also call this a conservative position, in light of the historical international and U.S. legal opinion on the matter--witness the recent statements from the Judge Advocate Generals (the chief attorneys of all four branches of the U.S. Armed Forces)--stating categorically that waterboarding, as a form of torture and thus a war crime, is impermissible for use by any U.S. military personnel. I notice that this position has not been mentioned earlier. Badagnani 19:59, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
My objection(s)- Calling waterboarding "torture" is an opinion, not a fact. The correct "term" is not 'controlled drowning;' it's waterboarding. I believe it's a partisan term because it seems (overwhelmingly) that both parties have distinct viewpoints on this technique. In my opinion (and many others share the same feelings, regardless of what you find in the mainstream media) waterboarding is a method of interrogation. Some could also refer to it as "coerced confessions".
I think for the simple fact that this issue is the subject of numerous heated debates (as evident of this discussion page, and in politics as well), that until there is a "clear-cut" winner, both terms (Method of interrogation & torture) should be used as the definition of waterboarding until this situation is resolved.
Why Controlled drowning is inappropriate,
Drowning is death as caused by suffocation when a liquid causes interruption of the body's absorption of oxygen from the air leading to asphyxia. The primary cause of death is hypoxia and acidosis leading to cardiac arrest.
The term drowning indicates death, no death here no drowning. Its akin to the often misused term electrocution. Some alternate wording should be used. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 20:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Reading this page I can't help but notice that people lose the focus of what this is about.
Respectfully Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 09:26, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Would you subscribe to: THIS DEFINITION then? It is about as logical as giving any weight to a torturer defining torture. Inertia Tensor 08:44, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Please add your DoJ source to the ones below and we can hash them all out methodically, else it will remain a slagging match by both of us, thanks. Inertia Tensor 09:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Waterboarding actually saves TERORRIST lives.
Think about this:
If there is no way to effectively interrogate terrorists, what incentive is there for the military to ever risk attempting to capture enemies alive? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.76.32.15 ( talk) 19:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Interesting tidbit for the article, Daniel Levin, Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel, underwent waterboarding so that he could understand it before he wrote an opinion on it. [16] Remember 19:11, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
When this page becomes unlocked, it should probably be worth noting the political commentators that supported the idea that the United States should waterboard suspects. Such as this one: [17] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Remember ( talk • contribs) 19:28, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
This subcat is NOT for the discussion of waterboarding.
I propose this topic only be unlocked when we have reached a concensus, AND written a resulting draft of the first paragraph in Talk, and it has been signed up on. Inertia Tensor 07:10, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
This subcat is NOT for the discussion of waterboarding, or hashing out a new version - make another sub-cat for that.
When we have reached sort sort of consensus, and have written a proposed replacement of the opener which people agree on, then please place the already-agreed version of it here, Allison or Chaser can then have a look at it, and consider whether it is safe to unlock. Inertia Tensor 07:10, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Let's try a methodical approach instead of this rolling row. The opinion of a wiki editor either way is not what counts here at all. These do.
Please restrict this to authoritative sources, and discussion of their authority or not, undue weight or not etc. We have to try a new approach. Inertia Tensor 09:15, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Most likely liberal democratic activists who find fault with this administration whenever possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.160.240.42 ( talk) 03:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
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(
help)"The state offered . . . testimony of confessions made by the appellant, Fisher. . . [who], after the state had rested, introduced the sheriff, who testified that, he was sent for one night to come and receive a confession of the appellant in the jail; that he went there for that purpose; that when he reached the jail he found a number of parties in the jail; that they had the appellant down upon the floor, tied, and were administering the water cure, a specie of torture well known to the bench and bar of the country."
The Judgment of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, Chapter 8
The practice of torturing prisoners of war and civilian internees prevailed at practically all places occupied by Japanese troops, both in the occupied territories and in Japan. The Japanese indulged in this practice during the entire period of the Pacific War. Methods of torture were employed in all areas so uniformly as to indicate policy both in training and execution. Among these tortures were the water treatment, burning, electric shocks, the knee spread, suspension, kneeling on sharp instruments and flogging.
This is the international war crimes tribunal which tried Japanese war crimes - directly analogous to the tribunal which tried Nazi war crimes at Nuremberg. The United States participated, as did all the major Allied powers. The "water treatment" referenced is waterboarding, based on descriptions cited in " drop by drop". Worldworld 17:01, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
A description of the "water treatment" from the same page. From the sound of it basically identical to the US technique.
The so-called "water treatment" was commonly applied. The victim was bound or otherwise secured in a prone position; and water was forced through his mouth and nostrils into his lungs and stomach until he lost consciousness. Pressure was then applied, sometimes by jumping upon his abdomen to force the water out. The usual practice was to revive the victim and successively repeat the process. There was evidence that this torture was used in the following places: China, at Shanghai, Peiping and Nanking; French Indo-China, at Hanoi and Saigon; Malaya, at Singapore; Burma, at Kyaikto; Thailand, at Chumporn; Andaman Islands, at Port Blair; Borneo, at Jesselton; Sumatra, at Medan, Tadjong Karang and Palembank; Java, at Batavia, Bandung, Soerabaja and Buitennzong; Celebes, at Makassar; Portuguese Timor, at Ossu and Dilli; Philippines, at Manila, Nichols Field, Palo Beach and Dumaguete; Formosa, at Camp Haito; and in Japan, at Tokyo.
Worldworld 17:06, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/11/former-interrogator-enters-waterboarding-fray/index.html?ex=1355029200&en=24bb2ab7b1b414da&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tmaull ( talk • contribs) 21:11, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
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