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Can I request that everyone stop editing this article right now. It is clear that recent changes reflect a misunderstanding of the sources used and that the original text was absolutely fine. In light of this we need to discuss changes before editing the article any further. Colin° Talk 17:36, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
I made what I thought were a few minor wording changes in the lede that were reverted, so I am bringing it here for consensus. The changes I recommend in the final paragraph are shown in bold below, with justification to follow.
The final paragraph states "The goal of water fluoridation is to prevent a chronic disease whose burdens particularly fall on children and on the poor.[19] Its use presents a potentialconflict between the common good and individual rights.[20] It is controversial,[21] and opposition to it has been based on the grounds of perceived ethical, legal, safety, and efficacy issues. (deleted "grounds").[22] Health and dental organizations worldwide have endorsed its safety and effectiveness.[3] Its use began in 1945, following studies of children in a region where higher levels of fluoride occur naturally in the water.[23] Researchers discovered that moderate fluoridation prevents tooth decay,[24] and as of 2004 about 400 million people worldwide received fluoridated water.[18]"
The intent was to recognize that there are a multitude of sources and opinions on the topic, as represented within the body of the article. Stating that there is a conflicr between common good and individual rights is a subjective opinion espoused by some factions. Some factions believe there is not conflict there. Whether or not there is a conflict between two social constructs is not a measurable thing or a universal; it is an opinion. One I happen to agree with, but one which remains an opinion. I think it best to simply add "potential" to indicate that there is debate about this, as represented by the sources and discussion in the article. Similarly, the sentence about opposition gives what I assume is an unintended implication that opposition has been based on the grounds of actual ethical, legal, safety and efficacy problems. Again, since different factions have different takes on this, I think it best to indicate that opposition is based on what the opponents view as those factors instead of stating that those issues universally and objectively exist. Another alternative for the latter sentence would simply be to say "...opposition to it has been based on arguments concerning...etc etc etc". IN that way it's clear we're indicating the position of the opposition, and not implying that the grounds are universally held to be true things.I don't want to argue about whether fluoridation is good or is not...that's not the purpose of this page, though I know it's a touch issue. I'm just trying to make a minor change to improve neutrality. Jbower47 ( talk) 21:17, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Per community pressure and vote of County Commission. See: Pinellas county commission votes to stop putting fluoride in water supply Star767 ( talk) 02:17, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
But they return it amongst some bitter feelings. See Pinellas county commission voes 6-1 to return fluoride to drinking water Star767 ( talk) 02:29, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
Attempts to correct false statements in this article have been strongly resisted by parties that are unknown. The article promotes the infusion into public water supplies of diluted industrial hazardous waste fluorosilicic acid simply because it contains some fluoride. Adding waste or any proposed medicament into public water supplies and then recommending that people consume it is a violation of the intent of the Safe Drinking Water Act, the Water Pollution Control Act and the Food Drug and Cosmetic Act. Indeed no controlled clinical trials in human volunteers even exist for this material or for sodium fluoride. The article is promoting quackery since the science is compelling and complete indicating that industrial fluoride (rather than the nontoxic calcium fluoride) is a cumulative substance that causes harm, is present in saliva to bathe teeth at only 0.02 ppm which is 75,000 times less concentrated than in toothpaste,and is unable to influence teeth caries. If you don't do your own hand-on research, you have no right to force your opinions in an article such as this. It destroys the credibility of Wikipedia and makes a mockery out of a source that some perceive as a credible reference.The article cannot be repaired and should be completely re-written, this time with facts such as summarized in lay terms by the NRC 2006 Report, the 2013 monographs by Declan Waugh for fluoridated Southern Ireland, and the text by Connett, The Case Against Fluoride, 2010. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.199.234.172 ( talk) 16:50, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
The entire article on water fluoridation is very unbalanced. Criticism of it seems to be limited to negatively calling it 'conspiracy theories'. Funny thing is, in this case, the conspiracy happens to be a true one. Read the book, 'The Fluoride Deception' By Christopher Bryson. No, it's not some quack paranoia book full of sensationalism with no references or research. It's a book by a BBC journalist, and if you want references and proof, there is PAGES of them at the back of the book.
After going through the references, the links to the manhattan project, aluminium manufacture and fluoride as a waste product with no use, dumping it into water supplies to get rid of it, is all proven in the book. This is one of the biggest medical and governmental coverups in 50 odd years.
The whole article needs to be re written, using references and evidence from the book (many from science journals) to show both sides of the story.
50 years from now, we will be shaking our heads at how we were dumb enough to put it in toothpaste and dump it into water, in the same way we laugh at how dumb it was to add radium to skin creams at one time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.21.118 ( talk) 00:16, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
Zad
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12:16, 21 March 2013 (UTC)Currently the article section in question reads: "A 2000 systematic review found that water fluoridation was statistically associated with a decreased proportion of children with cavities (the median of mean decreases was 14.6%, the range −5 to 64%), and with a decrease in decayed, missing, and filled primary teeth (the median of mean decreases was 2.25 teeth, the range 0.5–4.4 teeth), which is roughly equivalent to preventing 40% of cavities."
The authors of the review cited state "The best available evidence suggests that fluoridation of drinking water supplies does reduce caries prevalence, both as measured by the proportion of children who are caries free and by the mean change in dmft/DMFT score. The studies were of moderate quality (level B), but of limited quantity. The degree to which caries is reduced, however, is not clear from the data available. The range of the mean difference in the proportion (%) of caries-free children is -5.0 to 64%, with a median of 14.6% (interquartile range 5.05, 22.1%). " and that "What evidence we found suggested that water fluoridation was likely to have a beneficial effect, but that the range could be anywhere from a substantial benefit to a slight disbenefit to children's teeth." http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/crd/fluoridnew.htm , http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/crd/fluorid.htm
The York authors' conclusion is that, while the evidence suggests that fluoridation reduces caries, it is not possible to make definitive statements about levels of reduction of caries based on their data. This has been replaced with the interpretation of Worthington H, Clarkson J. (The Evidence Base for Topical Fluorides. Community Dental Health, 2003, 20: 74-76.) cited in a pamphlet by the British Fluoridation society offering the interpretation their interpretation of the York data as "roughly equivalent to preventing 40% of cavities."
Tilapidated ( talk) 18:39, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
I propose the following wording for the paragraph (citations are not shown in this version): "A 2000 systematic review of 214 studies (The York Review) stated that 'the best available evidence suggests that fluoridation of drinking water supplies does reduce caries prevalence', but 'that the degree to which caries is reduced, however, was not clear from the data available', and that 'the range could be anywhere from a substantial benefit to a slight disbenefit to children's teeth'. Commentators (including Worthington et al) propose that the York data may be interpreted as "roughly equivalent to preventing 40% of cavities."
The review found that the evidence was of moderate quality: many studies did not attempt to reduce observer bias, control for confounding factors, report variance measures, or use appropriate analysis. Although no major differences between natural and artificial fluoridation were apparent, the evidence was inadequate to reach a conclusion about any differences."
The conclusions quoted are from the study or the subsequent author's statement. Tilapidated ( talk) 18:59, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
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18:55, 22 February 2013 (UTC)On Wikipedia, we are writing an encyclopaedia, not an academic journal. For that to work, and be accessible to a wide range of readers, some interpretation of complex statistics and figures is helpful. But we cannot do such interpretations ourselves beyond the most basic maths per WP:OR. The Worthington and Clarkson figure is an interpretation of the York results. Several times in the section we talk of "reduction in cavities" but the York figures are a "reduction in children with any cavities" or a "decrease in decayed teeth". For the reader to compare the various reviews, it is helpful to not be comparing apples with oranges. The Worthington and Clarkson figure lets the reader see that the median result in the York review roughly corresponds to a 40% reduction in cavities. But we make quite clear that the York results cover a wide spread. Indeed reading the whole section, the reader is left in no doubt that reviews vary widely in their results and there is no one true figure.
Pulling out Worthington and Clarkson's 40% figure into its own paragraph ("Other researchers claim that fluoridation results in a reduction of 40% in cavities.") made it appear this value was the result of different review or even a different study performed by those authors. It isn't and so doing that is misleading.
I think the statement "range could be anywhere from a substantial benefit to a slight disbenefit to children's teeth" is a quite misleading summary of their figures. Although factually correct, it gives equal emphasis to the "slight disbenefit" side which is clearly an outlier in their data (it comes from one study out of 30, whereas 20 showed a significant benefit). It should be noted that this text is from a press-release on their website and not from the report itself or from a peer-reviewed journal. It is the sort of phrasing someone might make in a heated argument to make a point but hardly a balanced summary of the data.
On an encyclopaedia, the facts are more important than academic trivia like "The York Review" or "Worthington and Clarkson say..." This is just noise. The reader says "Why am I being told these names?" I do see some of Tilapidated's points though I feel the reader is not being nearly as misled as he thinks. How about
Colin° Talk 16:01, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
I am not a big fan of the proposed new wording for a number of reasons "A 2000 systematic review of 214 studies (The York Review) stated that 'the best available evidence suggests that fluoridation of drinking water supplies does reduce caries prevalence', but 'that the degree to which caries is reduced, however, was not clear from the data available', and that 'the range could be anywhere from a substantial benefit to a slight disbenefit to children's teeth'. Commentators (including Worthington et al) propose that the York data may be interpreted as "roughly equivalent to preventing 40% of cavities.""
Zad
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21:33, 25 February 2013 (UTC)What exactly are you saying is the thing the York review authors do not suggest? The review itself, and the 2003 clarifying comment, state two important things regarding fluoridation and dental health: 1) there is moderate but not good quality evidence that fluoridated water is likely to reduce caries, and 2) the range of benefit of the evidence reviewed was wide. Now, please take a close look at Colin's suggestion above, both items are represented. Perhaps we can change "found" to "suggested". Also note that in the article right now, the very next sentence after this starts "The review found that the evidence was of moderate quality".
You state The word 'suggests ' is as they say based on poor studies
- be careful here, the quality of evidence for a consequent increase in fluorosis was described as "poor". The quality of evidence for the reduction in caries was "moderate".
I'm still not seeing a significant problem with how Colin's suggestion, or the existing article content for that matter, seriously misrepresents the sources.
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19:50, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Zad
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19:53, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
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19:33, 27 February 2013 (UTC)The article Water fluoridation controversy deals with the exact same subject, bears a wealth of reliable sources, and deals with the subject in a much more neutral way. The fact is that the entirety of continental Europe and East Asia all decry the use of fluoride in drinking water. Why is the fact that fluoridated water is illegal in half the world not even hinted at in this article? It seems the only reason these two articles are separated is to allow the one-sided authors of this article to make unequivocal claims about the safety & efficacy of fluoridated water. They achieve this agenda by delegating all the 'alternative' critical points of view to a different article.
This article should be stripped for the few bits of neutral claims which can be added to the Water fluoridation controversy article, then be deleted. If there continue to be unprincipled edits intended to reduce the validity of sourced claims, especially those intended to minimize the very significant criticisms against water fluoridation, this article needs to be protected and repeat offenders banned from editing it. It would not be outside the scope of reason to find that someone has been editing this article on direct behalf of an organization involved in selling fluoridation to municipal water supplies. Boleroinferno ( talk) 19:48, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
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23:08, 18 March 2013 (UTC)A bit like merging Kepler's laws of planetary motion into Flat earth. The comment suggest that the " Water fluoridation controversy" article doesn't make it obvious enough where the science falls. But the article looks fine to me. Am I mistaken? TippyGoomba ( talk) 03:16, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
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04:10, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
See http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/cen-v067n019.p005
"An analysis of national survey data collected by the National Institute of Dental Research (NIDR) concludes that children who live in areas of the U.S. where the water supplies are fluoridated have tooth decay rates nearly identical with those who live in nonfluoridated areas."
Chem. Eng. News, 1989, 67 (19), pp 5–6 DOI: 10.1021/cen-v067n019.p005 Publication Date: May 08, 1989 Copyright © 1989 AMERICAN CHEMICAL SOCIETY — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 17:17, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
I recommend that nobody bother with these bad-faith source dumps.
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17:25, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
It is regarding the largest study ever undertaken regarding tooth decay in fluoridated versus non-fluoridated areas but you find it insignificant? Your motives are quite telling. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 17:36, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
@JonRichfield - Yiamouyiannis obtained the survey data from NIDR under the Freedom of Information Act.
It's clear you don't understand. Read PROCEEDINGS Fourth Annual Conference of State Dental Directors with The Public Health Service and The Children's Bureau, June 6-8, 1951; Federal Security Building, Washington, D.C..
This is the United States Government documentation of the minutes of a meeting sponsored by the U. S. Public Health Service in regards to the “Promotion and Application of Water Fluoridation.” Thesetminutes are officially recorded in Volume #5 of Hearings, 89th Congress, Dept. of Labor and Health Education and Welfare Appropiations for 1967. They are also recorded, Case #8425, Exihibit 108, of Public Utilities Commission of Calif. 1966. Its the infamous U.S. Dental Conference, 1951 with the "missing" minutes. I'm sure you'll find it interesting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 21:12, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
"Fluoride's caries-preventive properties initially were attributed to changes in enamel during tooth development because of the association between fluoride and cosmetic changes in enamel and a belief that fluoride incorporated into enamel during tooth development would result in a more acid-resistant mineral. However, laboratory and epidemiologic research suggests that fluoride prevents dental caries predominately after eruption of the tooth into the mouth, and its actions primarily are TOPICAL for both adults and children "
"Achievements in Public Health, 1900-1999..".
This deserves at least a mention somewhere in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 19:48, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
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19:55, 9 April 2013 (UTC)IP editor 99.61.178.14, I have left you a request to adhere to
WP:TPG and
WP:MEDRS at your talk page
here. I am leaving you this note here in case your IP changes.
Zad
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03:50, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
hatter per
WP:NOTFORUM
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It appears that many papers/studies on PubMed are leaning away from water fluoridation. See "Caries frequency in permanent teeth before and after discontinuation of water fluoridation in Kuopio, Finland." "In spite of discontinued water fluoridation, no indication of an increasing trend of caries could be found in Kuopio. The mean numbers of fluoride varnish and sealant applications decreased sharply in both towns between 1992 and 1995. In spite of that caries declined." "Caries prevalence after cessation of water fluoridation in La Salud, Cuba" "In the past, caries has usually increased after cessation of water fluoridation. More recently an opposite trend could be observed: following the cessation of drinking water fluoridation, in contrast to an expected rise in caries prevalence, DMFT and DMFS values remained at a low level for 6-9-year-olds and to decrease for 10/11-year-olds. In the 12/13-year-olds, there was a significant decrease." "Decline of caries prevalence after the cessation of water fluoridation in the former East Germany" "In contrast to the anticipated increase in dental caries following the cessation of water fluoridation in the cities Chemnitz and Plauen, a significant fall in caries prevalence was observed. This corresponded to the national caries decline and appears to be a new population-wide phenomenon. There is still no explanation for the pattern." "Prevalence and severity of dental caries in adolescents aged 12 and 15 living in communities with various fluoride concentrations" "In an analysis of caries severity (DMFT > or = 4), both adolescents with very mild/mild and moderate/severe dental fluorosis have higher caries severity. Fluoride exposure (measured through fluorosis presence) does not appear to be reducing the caries prevalence (DMFT > 0) or caries severity (DMFT > or = 4) in these high-altitude communities." "An epidemiological profile of dental caries in 12-year-old children residing in cities with and without fluoridated water supply in the central western area of the State of São Paulo, Brazil" "There was no statistically significant difference between DMFT in municipalities of the same size, regardless of the presence or absence of fluoride in the water supply... Prevalence of caries in the region was 'high', with a DMFT of 4.82, thus failing to reach the goals set for the year 2000." "Patterns of dental caries following the cessation of water fluoridation" Canada "The prevalence of caries (assessed in 5,927 children, grades 2, 3, 8, 9) decreased over time in the fluoridation-ended community while remaining unchanged in the fluoridated community." "The fluoride content of drinking water and caries experience in 15-19 year old school children in Ibadan, Nigeria" "Nine hundred and fifty five students aged 15-19 years randomly selected from eleven secondary schools in Ibadan metropolis were examined for dental caries over a period of 4-5 months. Only teeth with obvious cavitations were recorded as being carious using the WHO standard method. The fluoride level of the different water sources was between 0.02 and 0.03 ppm. [only] Forty-four (4.6%) of the children had dental caries. In conclusion, both the fluoride level and caries prevalence were low." "The effects of a break in water fluoridation on the development of dental caries and fluorosis" North Carolina "It was concluded that while the break had little effect on caries, dental fluorosis is sensitive to even small changes in fluoride exposure from drinking water, and this sensitivity is greater at 1 to 3 years of age than at 4 or 5 years." "New evidence on fluoridation" "A review of recent scientific literature reveals a consistent pattern of evidence--hip fractures, skeletal fluorosis, the effect of fluoride on bone structure, fluoride levels in bones and osteosarcomas--pointing to the existence of causal mechanisms by which fluoride damages bones. In addition, there is evidence, accepted by some eminent dental researchers and at least one leading United States proponent of fluoridation, that there is negligible benefit from ingesting fluoride, and that any (small) benefit from fluoridation comes from the action of fluoride at the surface of the teeth before fluoridated water is swallowed." "Is there a need of extra fluoride in children?" "The issues related to fluoridation of water or fortification of tooth paste with compounds of fluorides are controversial. Fluoride is stored mainly in the bones, where it increases the density and changes the internal architecture, makes it osteoporotic and more prone to fractures. Fluoride consumption by human beings increases the general cancer death rate, disrupts the synthesis of collagen and leads to the breakdown of collagen in bone, tendon, muscle, skin, cartilage, lungs, kidney and trachea, causing disruptive effect on various tissues in the body. It inhibits antibody formation, disturbs immune system and makes the child prone to malignancy. Fluoride has been categorized as a protoplasmic poison and any additional ingestion of fluoride by children is undesirable." "Developmental fluoride neurotoxicity: a systematic review and meta-analysis" "The results support the possibility of an adverse effect of high fluoride exposure on children's neurodevelopment." "Impact of fluoride on Neurological Development in Children" "Some studies suggested that even slightly increased fluoride exposure could be toxic to the brain."... "Fluoride seems to fit in with LEAD, MERCURY, and other poisons that cause chemical brain drain," Grandjean says. "The effect of each toxicant may seem small, but the combined damage on a population scale can be serious, especially because the brain power of the next generation is crucial to all of us." "Effects of the fluoride on the central nervous system" "The prolonged ingestion of F may cause significant damage to health and particularly to the nervous system. Therefore, it is important to be aware of this serious problem and avoid the use of toothpaste and items that contain F, particularly in children as they are more susceptible to the toxic effects of F." "Fluorine as a factor in premature aging" "In conclusions, the use of fluoride, particularly by dentists and pediatricians, must be controlled and adapted to individual needs." "Oral manifestations of thyroid disorders and its management" "Fluoride was used as a drug to treat hyperthyroidism because it reduces thyroid activity quite effectively. This is due to the ability of fluoride to mimic the action of thyrotropin (TSH). Excess fluoride correlates with the other thyroid-related issues such as iodine deficiency. Fluorine and iodine, both being members of the halogen group of atoms, have an antagonistic relationship. When there is excess of fluoride in the body it can interfere with the function of the thyroid gland. Thus, fluoride has been linked to thyroid problems." The prior therapeutic use of F to reduce thyroid hormone levels in cases of thyrotoxicosis is well documented (Goldemberg, (1926, 1930, 1932); May (1935, 1937); Orlowski (1932) and Galletti and G. Joyet, (1958)). "Fluoridation: a fifty-year-old accepted but unconfirmed hypothesis" "The fifty-year-old fluoridation hypothesis has not been confirmed. Despite this, millions of people are still medicated with fluoride by government decree, on the assumption that this process has been proved to be entirely safe, and very efficacious in reducing dental caries. In fact, the scientific basis of fluoridation is very unsatisfactory. It is promoted, in the main, by emotion-based 'endorsements' rather than by scientifically-acceptable evidence." "Fluoridation: a violation of medical ethics and human rights" "Silicofluorides, widely used in water fluoridation, are unlicensed medicinal substances, administered to large populations without informed consent or supervision by a qualified medical practitioner. Fluoridation fails the test of reliability and specificity, and, lacking toxicity testing of silicofluorides, constitutes unlawful medical research. It is banned in most of Europe; European Union human rights legislation makes it illegal. Silicofluorides have never been submitted to the U.S. FDA for approval as medicines. The ethical validity of fluoridation policy does not stand up to scrutiny relative to the Nuremberg Code and other codes of medical ethics, including the Council of Europe's Biomedical Convention of 1999. The police power of the State has been used in the United States to override health concerns, with the support of the courts, which have given deference to health authorities." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 19:44, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
WP:MEDRS states that PubMed is an excellent source of information. Are you stating that it is not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 04:48, 7 April 2013 (UTC) @TippyGoomba - WP:MEDDATE is a rule of thumb but isn't mandatory. "Here are some rules of thumb for keeping an article up-to-date, while maintaining the more-important goal of reliability. These instructions are appropriate for actively researched areas with many primary sources and several reviews and may need to be relaxed in areas where little progress is being made or few reviews are being published." I am still searching for safety studies done on consuming & bathing in water with added hexafluorosilicic acid instead of calcium fluoride. There is quite a difference in the LD50 toxicity levels. The LD50 for calcium fluoride is 4250 mg/kg. The LD50 for hexafluorosilicic acid is 70 mg/kg. Hexfluorosilicic acid (also known as hydrofluorosilicic acid) was banned by the EU in 2006 due to lack of toxicological data to show it was safe for humans and the environment yet this banned biocide/pesticide is used to fluoridate the water. Confounding many of these epidemiological studies is the fact that artificially added inorganic fluoride is much more damaging to living tissue (not to mention corrosive to pipes) than organic, naturally occurring calcium fluoride. And when measuring only the absolute levels of the fluoride anion, studies end up comparing apples to oranges. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 05:52, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
@JonRichfield - When I used the word "organic", I was using it in an "informal way". See Wikipedia, "Organic Matter". "Organic matter is present throughout the ecosystem. After degrading and reacting, it can then move into soil and mainstream water via waterflow. A majority of organic matter not already in the soil comes from groundwater." Didn't mean to enrage anyone. I stand corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 08:13, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
@TippyGoomba - What date should it be? Can you find something more recent? It doesn't appear that there are any peer-reviewed safety studies done on consuming hexafluorosilicic acid, aka hydrofluorosilicic acid, in tap water. Odd when you consider the difference in their LD50 toxicity levels to naturally occurring "calcium fluoride". Here's some information on hexafluorosilicic acid used for water fluoridation. See "Sodium Hexafluorosilicate and Fluorosilicic Acid, Review of Toxicological Literature". Its just a pesticide and rodenticide. Lets add it to tap water and feed it to American infants and children. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 19:50, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
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STATEMENT OF Dr. J. WILLIAM HIRZY.
Why is this completely omitted in this article?
Dr. J. William Hirzy of the EPA states, "Kingston and Newburg, New York Results- In 1998, the results of a fifty-year fluoridation experiment involving Kingston, New York (un-fluoridated) and Newburg, New York (fluoridated) were published (17). In summary, there is NO overall significant difference in rates of dental decay in children in the two cities, but children in the fluoridated city show significantly higher rates of dental fluorosis than children in the un-fluoridated city."
He further states, "a massive experiment that has been run on the American public, without informed consent, for over fifty years".
Does Wikipedia consider this insignificant? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 20:15, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Dr. William L. Marcus of the EPA is considered a "whistle-blower" concerning government policy regarding fluoridation. It was in the Washington Post on March 1, 1994. See Washington Post Article, "Whistle-Blower Clears the Air" dated March 1, 1994.
Why is this ignored in this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 21:32, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Zad
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03:08, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Zad
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03:56, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
If you look at the footnotes on this article, MOST of the medical information it contains is older than five years old and may need to be removed if you are going to adamantly require WP:MEDDATE of less than 5 years on everything. Of course if you plan to cherry-pick, that would be a different matter. The whole article comes off as very biased in general. What makes Dr. Marcus unreliable? Is it simply his POV? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk)
But we don't need peer-reviewed safety studies on consuming and bathing in water with added hexafluorosilicic acid? Its not the same as naturally occurring "calcium fluoride" yet it is added to tap water and simply called "fluoride". It doesn't even have the same LD50 toxicity level as "calcium fluoride". Unfortunately, I'm unable to find any peer-reviewed safety studies on it. But Wikipedia considers that okay? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk)
@JonRichfield - From what I understand, calcium mitigates the toxicity of fluoride compounds. This is why calcium of some form is used as an antidote in fluoride overdose or toxicity. And this is why calcium fluoride is considered the least toxic of fluoride compounds. Furthermore calcium fluoride is much less likely to dissociate in water as does hexafluorosilicic acid. There's quite a bit of difference in these compounds. I don't believe there is any calcium in hexafluorosilicic acid which is why I believe peer-reviewed safety should be required before any claims of safety can be made. Hexafluorosilicic acid can be used as a pesticide and rodenticide. Calcium fluoride does not make an effective pesticide due to its calcium content. I believe most medications are required to have peer-reviewed safety studies done on them. If there are any specific peer-reviewed safety studies on the use of hexafluorosilicic acid, I believe they should at least be mentioned and cited somewhere in this article. As stated before, hydrofluorosilicic acid (also known as hexafluorosilicic acid) was banned by the EU in 2006 due to lack of toxicological data to show it was safe for humans and the environment yet this banned chemical is used to fluoridate the water in the USA. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Shouldn't this be mentioned in an article regarding water fluoridation?
See AFFIDAVIT OF DR. JOHN COLQUHOUN IN SUPPORT OF MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT.
"I was shocked to discover, when the statistics were sent to me, they revealed no such benefit. In fact, in most Health Districts the percentage of children who were "caries-free" was higher in the non-fluoridated areas than in the fluoridated areas. I disagreed sharply with my superiors' action in circulating a document, "overview of fluoridation statistics," which omitted the above information, disgracefully 'doctored' the remaining statistics, and claimed that a marginal benefit existed." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 00:55, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
His statements are also in a journal article. "Why I changed my mind about water fluoridation". Colquhoun, J. Perspectives in Biol. And Medicine 41 1-16 (1997). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 04:13, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
We'd need a good quality secondary source to establish this guy's opinion is notable.
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04:43, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Dr. J. Colquhoun has several papers on PubMed regarding fluoridation but it doesn't look like abstracts are available to read. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 04:48, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Dr. J. Colquhoun is also used as a reference in "Fluoride in Drinking Water: A Scientific Review of EPA Standards (2006), Board of Environmental Studies and Toxicology".
"Others claim that fluoride causes various adverse health effects and question whether the dental benefits outweigh the risks (Colquhoun 1997)." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 05:17, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
@TippyGoomba - "Fluoride in Drinking Water: A Scientific Review of EPA Standards" (2006) is a "secondary" source. Its a book on fluoride. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 18:43, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
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19:02, 10 April 2013 (UTC)![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
Can I request that everyone stop editing this article right now. It is clear that recent changes reflect a misunderstanding of the sources used and that the original text was absolutely fine. In light of this we need to discuss changes before editing the article any further. Colin° Talk 17:36, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
I made what I thought were a few minor wording changes in the lede that were reverted, so I am bringing it here for consensus. The changes I recommend in the final paragraph are shown in bold below, with justification to follow.
The final paragraph states "The goal of water fluoridation is to prevent a chronic disease whose burdens particularly fall on children and on the poor.[19] Its use presents a potentialconflict between the common good and individual rights.[20] It is controversial,[21] and opposition to it has been based on the grounds of perceived ethical, legal, safety, and efficacy issues. (deleted "grounds").[22] Health and dental organizations worldwide have endorsed its safety and effectiveness.[3] Its use began in 1945, following studies of children in a region where higher levels of fluoride occur naturally in the water.[23] Researchers discovered that moderate fluoridation prevents tooth decay,[24] and as of 2004 about 400 million people worldwide received fluoridated water.[18]"
The intent was to recognize that there are a multitude of sources and opinions on the topic, as represented within the body of the article. Stating that there is a conflicr between common good and individual rights is a subjective opinion espoused by some factions. Some factions believe there is not conflict there. Whether or not there is a conflict between two social constructs is not a measurable thing or a universal; it is an opinion. One I happen to agree with, but one which remains an opinion. I think it best to simply add "potential" to indicate that there is debate about this, as represented by the sources and discussion in the article. Similarly, the sentence about opposition gives what I assume is an unintended implication that opposition has been based on the grounds of actual ethical, legal, safety and efficacy problems. Again, since different factions have different takes on this, I think it best to indicate that opposition is based on what the opponents view as those factors instead of stating that those issues universally and objectively exist. Another alternative for the latter sentence would simply be to say "...opposition to it has been based on arguments concerning...etc etc etc". IN that way it's clear we're indicating the position of the opposition, and not implying that the grounds are universally held to be true things.I don't want to argue about whether fluoridation is good or is not...that's not the purpose of this page, though I know it's a touch issue. I'm just trying to make a minor change to improve neutrality. Jbower47 ( talk) 21:17, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Per community pressure and vote of County Commission. See: Pinellas county commission votes to stop putting fluoride in water supply Star767 ( talk) 02:17, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
But they return it amongst some bitter feelings. See Pinellas county commission voes 6-1 to return fluoride to drinking water Star767 ( talk) 02:29, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
Attempts to correct false statements in this article have been strongly resisted by parties that are unknown. The article promotes the infusion into public water supplies of diluted industrial hazardous waste fluorosilicic acid simply because it contains some fluoride. Adding waste or any proposed medicament into public water supplies and then recommending that people consume it is a violation of the intent of the Safe Drinking Water Act, the Water Pollution Control Act and the Food Drug and Cosmetic Act. Indeed no controlled clinical trials in human volunteers even exist for this material or for sodium fluoride. The article is promoting quackery since the science is compelling and complete indicating that industrial fluoride (rather than the nontoxic calcium fluoride) is a cumulative substance that causes harm, is present in saliva to bathe teeth at only 0.02 ppm which is 75,000 times less concentrated than in toothpaste,and is unable to influence teeth caries. If you don't do your own hand-on research, you have no right to force your opinions in an article such as this. It destroys the credibility of Wikipedia and makes a mockery out of a source that some perceive as a credible reference.The article cannot be repaired and should be completely re-written, this time with facts such as summarized in lay terms by the NRC 2006 Report, the 2013 monographs by Declan Waugh for fluoridated Southern Ireland, and the text by Connett, The Case Against Fluoride, 2010. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.199.234.172 ( talk) 16:50, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
The entire article on water fluoridation is very unbalanced. Criticism of it seems to be limited to negatively calling it 'conspiracy theories'. Funny thing is, in this case, the conspiracy happens to be a true one. Read the book, 'The Fluoride Deception' By Christopher Bryson. No, it's not some quack paranoia book full of sensationalism with no references or research. It's a book by a BBC journalist, and if you want references and proof, there is PAGES of them at the back of the book.
After going through the references, the links to the manhattan project, aluminium manufacture and fluoride as a waste product with no use, dumping it into water supplies to get rid of it, is all proven in the book. This is one of the biggest medical and governmental coverups in 50 odd years.
The whole article needs to be re written, using references and evidence from the book (many from science journals) to show both sides of the story.
50 years from now, we will be shaking our heads at how we were dumb enough to put it in toothpaste and dump it into water, in the same way we laugh at how dumb it was to add radium to skin creams at one time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.21.118 ( talk) 00:16, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
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12:16, 21 March 2013 (UTC)Currently the article section in question reads: "A 2000 systematic review found that water fluoridation was statistically associated with a decreased proportion of children with cavities (the median of mean decreases was 14.6%, the range −5 to 64%), and with a decrease in decayed, missing, and filled primary teeth (the median of mean decreases was 2.25 teeth, the range 0.5–4.4 teeth), which is roughly equivalent to preventing 40% of cavities."
The authors of the review cited state "The best available evidence suggests that fluoridation of drinking water supplies does reduce caries prevalence, both as measured by the proportion of children who are caries free and by the mean change in dmft/DMFT score. The studies were of moderate quality (level B), but of limited quantity. The degree to which caries is reduced, however, is not clear from the data available. The range of the mean difference in the proportion (%) of caries-free children is -5.0 to 64%, with a median of 14.6% (interquartile range 5.05, 22.1%). " and that "What evidence we found suggested that water fluoridation was likely to have a beneficial effect, but that the range could be anywhere from a substantial benefit to a slight disbenefit to children's teeth." http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/crd/fluoridnew.htm , http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/crd/fluorid.htm
The York authors' conclusion is that, while the evidence suggests that fluoridation reduces caries, it is not possible to make definitive statements about levels of reduction of caries based on their data. This has been replaced with the interpretation of Worthington H, Clarkson J. (The Evidence Base for Topical Fluorides. Community Dental Health, 2003, 20: 74-76.) cited in a pamphlet by the British Fluoridation society offering the interpretation their interpretation of the York data as "roughly equivalent to preventing 40% of cavities."
Tilapidated ( talk) 18:39, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
I propose the following wording for the paragraph (citations are not shown in this version): "A 2000 systematic review of 214 studies (The York Review) stated that 'the best available evidence suggests that fluoridation of drinking water supplies does reduce caries prevalence', but 'that the degree to which caries is reduced, however, was not clear from the data available', and that 'the range could be anywhere from a substantial benefit to a slight disbenefit to children's teeth'. Commentators (including Worthington et al) propose that the York data may be interpreted as "roughly equivalent to preventing 40% of cavities."
The review found that the evidence was of moderate quality: many studies did not attempt to reduce observer bias, control for confounding factors, report variance measures, or use appropriate analysis. Although no major differences between natural and artificial fluoridation were apparent, the evidence was inadequate to reach a conclusion about any differences."
The conclusions quoted are from the study or the subsequent author's statement. Tilapidated ( talk) 18:59, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
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18:55, 22 February 2013 (UTC)On Wikipedia, we are writing an encyclopaedia, not an academic journal. For that to work, and be accessible to a wide range of readers, some interpretation of complex statistics and figures is helpful. But we cannot do such interpretations ourselves beyond the most basic maths per WP:OR. The Worthington and Clarkson figure is an interpretation of the York results. Several times in the section we talk of "reduction in cavities" but the York figures are a "reduction in children with any cavities" or a "decrease in decayed teeth". For the reader to compare the various reviews, it is helpful to not be comparing apples with oranges. The Worthington and Clarkson figure lets the reader see that the median result in the York review roughly corresponds to a 40% reduction in cavities. But we make quite clear that the York results cover a wide spread. Indeed reading the whole section, the reader is left in no doubt that reviews vary widely in their results and there is no one true figure.
Pulling out Worthington and Clarkson's 40% figure into its own paragraph ("Other researchers claim that fluoridation results in a reduction of 40% in cavities.") made it appear this value was the result of different review or even a different study performed by those authors. It isn't and so doing that is misleading.
I think the statement "range could be anywhere from a substantial benefit to a slight disbenefit to children's teeth" is a quite misleading summary of their figures. Although factually correct, it gives equal emphasis to the "slight disbenefit" side which is clearly an outlier in their data (it comes from one study out of 30, whereas 20 showed a significant benefit). It should be noted that this text is from a press-release on their website and not from the report itself or from a peer-reviewed journal. It is the sort of phrasing someone might make in a heated argument to make a point but hardly a balanced summary of the data.
On an encyclopaedia, the facts are more important than academic trivia like "The York Review" or "Worthington and Clarkson say..." This is just noise. The reader says "Why am I being told these names?" I do see some of Tilapidated's points though I feel the reader is not being nearly as misled as he thinks. How about
Colin° Talk 16:01, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
I am not a big fan of the proposed new wording for a number of reasons "A 2000 systematic review of 214 studies (The York Review) stated that 'the best available evidence suggests that fluoridation of drinking water supplies does reduce caries prevalence', but 'that the degree to which caries is reduced, however, was not clear from the data available', and that 'the range could be anywhere from a substantial benefit to a slight disbenefit to children's teeth'. Commentators (including Worthington et al) propose that the York data may be interpreted as "roughly equivalent to preventing 40% of cavities.""
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21:33, 25 February 2013 (UTC)What exactly are you saying is the thing the York review authors do not suggest? The review itself, and the 2003 clarifying comment, state two important things regarding fluoridation and dental health: 1) there is moderate but not good quality evidence that fluoridated water is likely to reduce caries, and 2) the range of benefit of the evidence reviewed was wide. Now, please take a close look at Colin's suggestion above, both items are represented. Perhaps we can change "found" to "suggested". Also note that in the article right now, the very next sentence after this starts "The review found that the evidence was of moderate quality".
You state The word 'suggests ' is as they say based on poor studies
- be careful here, the quality of evidence for a consequent increase in fluorosis was described as "poor". The quality of evidence for the reduction in caries was "moderate".
I'm still not seeing a significant problem with how Colin's suggestion, or the existing article content for that matter, seriously misrepresents the sources.
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19:50, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
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19:53, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
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19:33, 27 February 2013 (UTC)The article Water fluoridation controversy deals with the exact same subject, bears a wealth of reliable sources, and deals with the subject in a much more neutral way. The fact is that the entirety of continental Europe and East Asia all decry the use of fluoride in drinking water. Why is the fact that fluoridated water is illegal in half the world not even hinted at in this article? It seems the only reason these two articles are separated is to allow the one-sided authors of this article to make unequivocal claims about the safety & efficacy of fluoridated water. They achieve this agenda by delegating all the 'alternative' critical points of view to a different article.
This article should be stripped for the few bits of neutral claims which can be added to the Water fluoridation controversy article, then be deleted. If there continue to be unprincipled edits intended to reduce the validity of sourced claims, especially those intended to minimize the very significant criticisms against water fluoridation, this article needs to be protected and repeat offenders banned from editing it. It would not be outside the scope of reason to find that someone has been editing this article on direct behalf of an organization involved in selling fluoridation to municipal water supplies. Boleroinferno ( talk) 19:48, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
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23:08, 18 March 2013 (UTC)A bit like merging Kepler's laws of planetary motion into Flat earth. The comment suggest that the " Water fluoridation controversy" article doesn't make it obvious enough where the science falls. But the article looks fine to me. Am I mistaken? TippyGoomba ( talk) 03:16, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
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04:10, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
See http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/cen-v067n019.p005
"An analysis of national survey data collected by the National Institute of Dental Research (NIDR) concludes that children who live in areas of the U.S. where the water supplies are fluoridated have tooth decay rates nearly identical with those who live in nonfluoridated areas."
Chem. Eng. News, 1989, 67 (19), pp 5–6 DOI: 10.1021/cen-v067n019.p005 Publication Date: May 08, 1989 Copyright © 1989 AMERICAN CHEMICAL SOCIETY — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 17:17, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
I recommend that nobody bother with these bad-faith source dumps.
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17:25, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
It is regarding the largest study ever undertaken regarding tooth decay in fluoridated versus non-fluoridated areas but you find it insignificant? Your motives are quite telling. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 17:36, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
@JonRichfield - Yiamouyiannis obtained the survey data from NIDR under the Freedom of Information Act.
It's clear you don't understand. Read PROCEEDINGS Fourth Annual Conference of State Dental Directors with The Public Health Service and The Children's Bureau, June 6-8, 1951; Federal Security Building, Washington, D.C..
This is the United States Government documentation of the minutes of a meeting sponsored by the U. S. Public Health Service in regards to the “Promotion and Application of Water Fluoridation.” Thesetminutes are officially recorded in Volume #5 of Hearings, 89th Congress, Dept. of Labor and Health Education and Welfare Appropiations for 1967. They are also recorded, Case #8425, Exihibit 108, of Public Utilities Commission of Calif. 1966. Its the infamous U.S. Dental Conference, 1951 with the "missing" minutes. I'm sure you'll find it interesting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 21:12, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
"Fluoride's caries-preventive properties initially were attributed to changes in enamel during tooth development because of the association between fluoride and cosmetic changes in enamel and a belief that fluoride incorporated into enamel during tooth development would result in a more acid-resistant mineral. However, laboratory and epidemiologic research suggests that fluoride prevents dental caries predominately after eruption of the tooth into the mouth, and its actions primarily are TOPICAL for both adults and children "
"Achievements in Public Health, 1900-1999..".
This deserves at least a mention somewhere in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 19:48, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
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19:55, 9 April 2013 (UTC)IP editor 99.61.178.14, I have left you a request to adhere to
WP:TPG and
WP:MEDRS at your talk page
here. I am leaving you this note here in case your IP changes.
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03:50, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
hatter per
WP:NOTFORUM
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It appears that many papers/studies on PubMed are leaning away from water fluoridation. See "Caries frequency in permanent teeth before and after discontinuation of water fluoridation in Kuopio, Finland." "In spite of discontinued water fluoridation, no indication of an increasing trend of caries could be found in Kuopio. The mean numbers of fluoride varnish and sealant applications decreased sharply in both towns between 1992 and 1995. In spite of that caries declined." "Caries prevalence after cessation of water fluoridation in La Salud, Cuba" "In the past, caries has usually increased after cessation of water fluoridation. More recently an opposite trend could be observed: following the cessation of drinking water fluoridation, in contrast to an expected rise in caries prevalence, DMFT and DMFS values remained at a low level for 6-9-year-olds and to decrease for 10/11-year-olds. In the 12/13-year-olds, there was a significant decrease." "Decline of caries prevalence after the cessation of water fluoridation in the former East Germany" "In contrast to the anticipated increase in dental caries following the cessation of water fluoridation in the cities Chemnitz and Plauen, a significant fall in caries prevalence was observed. This corresponded to the national caries decline and appears to be a new population-wide phenomenon. There is still no explanation for the pattern." "Prevalence and severity of dental caries in adolescents aged 12 and 15 living in communities with various fluoride concentrations" "In an analysis of caries severity (DMFT > or = 4), both adolescents with very mild/mild and moderate/severe dental fluorosis have higher caries severity. Fluoride exposure (measured through fluorosis presence) does not appear to be reducing the caries prevalence (DMFT > 0) or caries severity (DMFT > or = 4) in these high-altitude communities." "An epidemiological profile of dental caries in 12-year-old children residing in cities with and without fluoridated water supply in the central western area of the State of São Paulo, Brazil" "There was no statistically significant difference between DMFT in municipalities of the same size, regardless of the presence or absence of fluoride in the water supply... Prevalence of caries in the region was 'high', with a DMFT of 4.82, thus failing to reach the goals set for the year 2000." "Patterns of dental caries following the cessation of water fluoridation" Canada "The prevalence of caries (assessed in 5,927 children, grades 2, 3, 8, 9) decreased over time in the fluoridation-ended community while remaining unchanged in the fluoridated community." "The fluoride content of drinking water and caries experience in 15-19 year old school children in Ibadan, Nigeria" "Nine hundred and fifty five students aged 15-19 years randomly selected from eleven secondary schools in Ibadan metropolis were examined for dental caries over a period of 4-5 months. Only teeth with obvious cavitations were recorded as being carious using the WHO standard method. The fluoride level of the different water sources was between 0.02 and 0.03 ppm. [only] Forty-four (4.6%) of the children had dental caries. In conclusion, both the fluoride level and caries prevalence were low." "The effects of a break in water fluoridation on the development of dental caries and fluorosis" North Carolina "It was concluded that while the break had little effect on caries, dental fluorosis is sensitive to even small changes in fluoride exposure from drinking water, and this sensitivity is greater at 1 to 3 years of age than at 4 or 5 years." "New evidence on fluoridation" "A review of recent scientific literature reveals a consistent pattern of evidence--hip fractures, skeletal fluorosis, the effect of fluoride on bone structure, fluoride levels in bones and osteosarcomas--pointing to the existence of causal mechanisms by which fluoride damages bones. In addition, there is evidence, accepted by some eminent dental researchers and at least one leading United States proponent of fluoridation, that there is negligible benefit from ingesting fluoride, and that any (small) benefit from fluoridation comes from the action of fluoride at the surface of the teeth before fluoridated water is swallowed." "Is there a need of extra fluoride in children?" "The issues related to fluoridation of water or fortification of tooth paste with compounds of fluorides are controversial. Fluoride is stored mainly in the bones, where it increases the density and changes the internal architecture, makes it osteoporotic and more prone to fractures. Fluoride consumption by human beings increases the general cancer death rate, disrupts the synthesis of collagen and leads to the breakdown of collagen in bone, tendon, muscle, skin, cartilage, lungs, kidney and trachea, causing disruptive effect on various tissues in the body. It inhibits antibody formation, disturbs immune system and makes the child prone to malignancy. Fluoride has been categorized as a protoplasmic poison and any additional ingestion of fluoride by children is undesirable." "Developmental fluoride neurotoxicity: a systematic review and meta-analysis" "The results support the possibility of an adverse effect of high fluoride exposure on children's neurodevelopment." "Impact of fluoride on Neurological Development in Children" "Some studies suggested that even slightly increased fluoride exposure could be toxic to the brain."... "Fluoride seems to fit in with LEAD, MERCURY, and other poisons that cause chemical brain drain," Grandjean says. "The effect of each toxicant may seem small, but the combined damage on a population scale can be serious, especially because the brain power of the next generation is crucial to all of us." "Effects of the fluoride on the central nervous system" "The prolonged ingestion of F may cause significant damage to health and particularly to the nervous system. Therefore, it is important to be aware of this serious problem and avoid the use of toothpaste and items that contain F, particularly in children as they are more susceptible to the toxic effects of F." "Fluorine as a factor in premature aging" "In conclusions, the use of fluoride, particularly by dentists and pediatricians, must be controlled and adapted to individual needs." "Oral manifestations of thyroid disorders and its management" "Fluoride was used as a drug to treat hyperthyroidism because it reduces thyroid activity quite effectively. This is due to the ability of fluoride to mimic the action of thyrotropin (TSH). Excess fluoride correlates with the other thyroid-related issues such as iodine deficiency. Fluorine and iodine, both being members of the halogen group of atoms, have an antagonistic relationship. When there is excess of fluoride in the body it can interfere with the function of the thyroid gland. Thus, fluoride has been linked to thyroid problems." The prior therapeutic use of F to reduce thyroid hormone levels in cases of thyrotoxicosis is well documented (Goldemberg, (1926, 1930, 1932); May (1935, 1937); Orlowski (1932) and Galletti and G. Joyet, (1958)). "Fluoridation: a fifty-year-old accepted but unconfirmed hypothesis" "The fifty-year-old fluoridation hypothesis has not been confirmed. Despite this, millions of people are still medicated with fluoride by government decree, on the assumption that this process has been proved to be entirely safe, and very efficacious in reducing dental caries. In fact, the scientific basis of fluoridation is very unsatisfactory. It is promoted, in the main, by emotion-based 'endorsements' rather than by scientifically-acceptable evidence." "Fluoridation: a violation of medical ethics and human rights" "Silicofluorides, widely used in water fluoridation, are unlicensed medicinal substances, administered to large populations without informed consent or supervision by a qualified medical practitioner. Fluoridation fails the test of reliability and specificity, and, lacking toxicity testing of silicofluorides, constitutes unlawful medical research. It is banned in most of Europe; European Union human rights legislation makes it illegal. Silicofluorides have never been submitted to the U.S. FDA for approval as medicines. The ethical validity of fluoridation policy does not stand up to scrutiny relative to the Nuremberg Code and other codes of medical ethics, including the Council of Europe's Biomedical Convention of 1999. The police power of the State has been used in the United States to override health concerns, with the support of the courts, which have given deference to health authorities." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 19:44, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
WP:MEDRS states that PubMed is an excellent source of information. Are you stating that it is not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 04:48, 7 April 2013 (UTC) @TippyGoomba - WP:MEDDATE is a rule of thumb but isn't mandatory. "Here are some rules of thumb for keeping an article up-to-date, while maintaining the more-important goal of reliability. These instructions are appropriate for actively researched areas with many primary sources and several reviews and may need to be relaxed in areas where little progress is being made or few reviews are being published." I am still searching for safety studies done on consuming & bathing in water with added hexafluorosilicic acid instead of calcium fluoride. There is quite a difference in the LD50 toxicity levels. The LD50 for calcium fluoride is 4250 mg/kg. The LD50 for hexafluorosilicic acid is 70 mg/kg. Hexfluorosilicic acid (also known as hydrofluorosilicic acid) was banned by the EU in 2006 due to lack of toxicological data to show it was safe for humans and the environment yet this banned biocide/pesticide is used to fluoridate the water. Confounding many of these epidemiological studies is the fact that artificially added inorganic fluoride is much more damaging to living tissue (not to mention corrosive to pipes) than organic, naturally occurring calcium fluoride. And when measuring only the absolute levels of the fluoride anion, studies end up comparing apples to oranges. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 05:52, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
@JonRichfield - When I used the word "organic", I was using it in an "informal way". See Wikipedia, "Organic Matter". "Organic matter is present throughout the ecosystem. After degrading and reacting, it can then move into soil and mainstream water via waterflow. A majority of organic matter not already in the soil comes from groundwater." Didn't mean to enrage anyone. I stand corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 08:13, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
@TippyGoomba - What date should it be? Can you find something more recent? It doesn't appear that there are any peer-reviewed safety studies done on consuming hexafluorosilicic acid, aka hydrofluorosilicic acid, in tap water. Odd when you consider the difference in their LD50 toxicity levels to naturally occurring "calcium fluoride". Here's some information on hexafluorosilicic acid used for water fluoridation. See "Sodium Hexafluorosilicate and Fluorosilicic Acid, Review of Toxicological Literature". Its just a pesticide and rodenticide. Lets add it to tap water and feed it to American infants and children. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 19:50, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
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STATEMENT OF Dr. J. WILLIAM HIRZY.
Why is this completely omitted in this article?
Dr. J. William Hirzy of the EPA states, "Kingston and Newburg, New York Results- In 1998, the results of a fifty-year fluoridation experiment involving Kingston, New York (un-fluoridated) and Newburg, New York (fluoridated) were published (17). In summary, there is NO overall significant difference in rates of dental decay in children in the two cities, but children in the fluoridated city show significantly higher rates of dental fluorosis than children in the un-fluoridated city."
He further states, "a massive experiment that has been run on the American public, without informed consent, for over fifty years".
Does Wikipedia consider this insignificant? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 20:15, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Dr. William L. Marcus of the EPA is considered a "whistle-blower" concerning government policy regarding fluoridation. It was in the Washington Post on March 1, 1994. See Washington Post Article, "Whistle-Blower Clears the Air" dated March 1, 1994.
Why is this ignored in this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 21:32, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
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03:08, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
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03:56, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
If you look at the footnotes on this article, MOST of the medical information it contains is older than five years old and may need to be removed if you are going to adamantly require WP:MEDDATE of less than 5 years on everything. Of course if you plan to cherry-pick, that would be a different matter. The whole article comes off as very biased in general. What makes Dr. Marcus unreliable? Is it simply his POV? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk)
But we don't need peer-reviewed safety studies on consuming and bathing in water with added hexafluorosilicic acid? Its not the same as naturally occurring "calcium fluoride" yet it is added to tap water and simply called "fluoride". It doesn't even have the same LD50 toxicity level as "calcium fluoride". Unfortunately, I'm unable to find any peer-reviewed safety studies on it. But Wikipedia considers that okay? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk)
@JonRichfield - From what I understand, calcium mitigates the toxicity of fluoride compounds. This is why calcium of some form is used as an antidote in fluoride overdose or toxicity. And this is why calcium fluoride is considered the least toxic of fluoride compounds. Furthermore calcium fluoride is much less likely to dissociate in water as does hexafluorosilicic acid. There's quite a bit of difference in these compounds. I don't believe there is any calcium in hexafluorosilicic acid which is why I believe peer-reviewed safety should be required before any claims of safety can be made. Hexafluorosilicic acid can be used as a pesticide and rodenticide. Calcium fluoride does not make an effective pesticide due to its calcium content. I believe most medications are required to have peer-reviewed safety studies done on them. If there are any specific peer-reviewed safety studies on the use of hexafluorosilicic acid, I believe they should at least be mentioned and cited somewhere in this article. As stated before, hydrofluorosilicic acid (also known as hexafluorosilicic acid) was banned by the EU in 2006 due to lack of toxicological data to show it was safe for humans and the environment yet this banned chemical is used to fluoridate the water in the USA. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Shouldn't this be mentioned in an article regarding water fluoridation?
See AFFIDAVIT OF DR. JOHN COLQUHOUN IN SUPPORT OF MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT.
"I was shocked to discover, when the statistics were sent to me, they revealed no such benefit. In fact, in most Health Districts the percentage of children who were "caries-free" was higher in the non-fluoridated areas than in the fluoridated areas. I disagreed sharply with my superiors' action in circulating a document, "overview of fluoridation statistics," which omitted the above information, disgracefully 'doctored' the remaining statistics, and claimed that a marginal benefit existed." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 00:55, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
His statements are also in a journal article. "Why I changed my mind about water fluoridation". Colquhoun, J. Perspectives in Biol. And Medicine 41 1-16 (1997). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 04:13, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
We'd need a good quality secondary source to establish this guy's opinion is notable.
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04:43, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Dr. J. Colquhoun has several papers on PubMed regarding fluoridation but it doesn't look like abstracts are available to read. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 04:48, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Dr. J. Colquhoun is also used as a reference in "Fluoride in Drinking Water: A Scientific Review of EPA Standards (2006), Board of Environmental Studies and Toxicology".
"Others claim that fluoride causes various adverse health effects and question whether the dental benefits outweigh the risks (Colquhoun 1997)." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 05:17, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
@TippyGoomba - "Fluoride in Drinking Water: A Scientific Review of EPA Standards" (2006) is a "secondary" source. Its a book on fluoride. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 ( talk) 18:43, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
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19:02, 10 April 2013 (UTC)