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The Watchmaker analogy is not intended to be a scientific argument, but is an analogous philosophical argument. To call it pseudoscience is dishonest, implies an atheistic bias, and begins the article by pushing that particular viewpoint on the reader. As per Wikipedia's NPOV principle this article should present the analogy in a neutral way which favours neither theists or atheists. Therefore, the Watchmaker analogy should be stated neutrally to be that which it is, namely, an analogy which argues for the existence of God, or simply a philosophical argument. Boaziah ( talk) 07:30, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
According to who?According to the sources quoted in the article intelligent design.
the particular fieldis biology. Within biology, only a tiny minority of hyper-religious nuts are ID fans. It does not matter how many laypeople are fooled by a fringe idea; climate change denial, for example, is fringe even though its proponents have bamboozled even more ignorant people than creationism did. -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 16:06, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
he believed and taught intelligent designThat is bullshit. ID was invented by Phillip E. Johnson. But creationists (that includes ID) love to misappropriate pre-Darwin scientists to their pseudoscience. -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 09:41, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
Boaziah, believing that the current idea called "intelligent design" incorporates pseudoscience is not atheism. Many devout Christians are comfortable with modern views of science and of evolution. The Vatican observatory is happy to study the evolution of the universe from the big bang onward. Science, scientists, and religious beliefs have come very far since the publication of the watchmaker analogy in 1802. However people still choose the faith that makes them comfortable inhabiting this complicated existance of ours, but they should not try to impose their own beliefs or lack of beliefs on others. The analogy today is in the news mostly as part of current "intelligent design" arguments in opposition to the teaching of evolution in public schools, and we can't ignore that.
Hob Gadling, I think the archiving of this talk page needs to be less agressive. It should follow the more usual style of keeping that last two discussions, whatever their age. That makes it easier for editors to understand how to start new discussions, and may avoid repeated discussions. I'm going to add "minkeepthreads=2". StarryGrandma ( talk) 22:40, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
The Vatican is Catholic, not ChristianThis is getting crazier and crazier.
Are you an NPC?Now that person thinks they are playing a fantasy game - that explains a lot. Next they will try to magic-missile me.
Hello all. I am not wont to argue against the well-established fact that "Intelligent Design" is pseudoscientific -- that much is not up for discussion. However, I find that the wording of this article severely obfuscates the historical, philosophical concept of the watchmaker analogy with the modern, pseudoscientific use as an argument against evolution.
These things ought not to be confused -- it is a great disservice to the discipline of natural theology for these arguments (which are not intended to be scientific) to be coopted by neo-creationists. In expounding the watchmaker analogy, we should establish an appropriate degree of separation between the analogy itself and its usurpation by pseuoscientists.
Because of this, I have just changed the first sentence to "The watchmaker analogy or watchmaker argument is a teleological argument originating in natural theology, which is often used to argue for the pseudoscientific concept of intelligent design." This establishes a distinction between the concept itself and its modern use, while not ignoring the troubling influence it has had in the ID movement. I have likewise modified the short description to reflect a more technical definition.
There are certainly more ways in which this article can be improved, but this change seemed most apparent and expedient to me. Mannana308 ( talk) 22:07, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Watchmaker analogy article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The Watchmaker analogy is not intended to be a scientific argument, but is an analogous philosophical argument. To call it pseudoscience is dishonest, implies an atheistic bias, and begins the article by pushing that particular viewpoint on the reader. As per Wikipedia's NPOV principle this article should present the analogy in a neutral way which favours neither theists or atheists. Therefore, the Watchmaker analogy should be stated neutrally to be that which it is, namely, an analogy which argues for the existence of God, or simply a philosophical argument. Boaziah ( talk) 07:30, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
According to who?According to the sources quoted in the article intelligent design.
the particular fieldis biology. Within biology, only a tiny minority of hyper-religious nuts are ID fans. It does not matter how many laypeople are fooled by a fringe idea; climate change denial, for example, is fringe even though its proponents have bamboozled even more ignorant people than creationism did. -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 16:06, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
he believed and taught intelligent designThat is bullshit. ID was invented by Phillip E. Johnson. But creationists (that includes ID) love to misappropriate pre-Darwin scientists to their pseudoscience. -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 09:41, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
Boaziah, believing that the current idea called "intelligent design" incorporates pseudoscience is not atheism. Many devout Christians are comfortable with modern views of science and of evolution. The Vatican observatory is happy to study the evolution of the universe from the big bang onward. Science, scientists, and religious beliefs have come very far since the publication of the watchmaker analogy in 1802. However people still choose the faith that makes them comfortable inhabiting this complicated existance of ours, but they should not try to impose their own beliefs or lack of beliefs on others. The analogy today is in the news mostly as part of current "intelligent design" arguments in opposition to the teaching of evolution in public schools, and we can't ignore that.
Hob Gadling, I think the archiving of this talk page needs to be less agressive. It should follow the more usual style of keeping that last two discussions, whatever their age. That makes it easier for editors to understand how to start new discussions, and may avoid repeated discussions. I'm going to add "minkeepthreads=2". StarryGrandma ( talk) 22:40, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
The Vatican is Catholic, not ChristianThis is getting crazier and crazier.
Are you an NPC?Now that person thinks they are playing a fantasy game - that explains a lot. Next they will try to magic-missile me.
Hello all. I am not wont to argue against the well-established fact that "Intelligent Design" is pseudoscientific -- that much is not up for discussion. However, I find that the wording of this article severely obfuscates the historical, philosophical concept of the watchmaker analogy with the modern, pseudoscientific use as an argument against evolution.
These things ought not to be confused -- it is a great disservice to the discipline of natural theology for these arguments (which are not intended to be scientific) to be coopted by neo-creationists. In expounding the watchmaker analogy, we should establish an appropriate degree of separation between the analogy itself and its usurpation by pseuoscientists.
Because of this, I have just changed the first sentence to "The watchmaker analogy or watchmaker argument is a teleological argument originating in natural theology, which is often used to argue for the pseudoscientific concept of intelligent design." This establishes a distinction between the concept itself and its modern use, while not ignoring the troubling influence it has had in the ID movement. I have likewise modified the short description to reflect a more technical definition.
There are certainly more ways in which this article can be improved, but this change seemed most apparent and expedient to me. Mannana308 ( talk) 22:07, 11 February 2024 (UTC)