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The article needs a lot of work, but I can't see any reason to conclude that the event didn't take place. There are three secondary sources already in the article. Additional journal source here from Ian Clark mentions a battle/massacre and gives additional details about the Yowengerre (Yowengare, Yowenjerre, Yowengarra). Also mentioned here and here. Are there any sources disputing that it took place, or that Robinson fabricated similar events? Even then these would need to be weighted accordingly with contradictory sources and wouldn't be cause to just delete the article. Ivar the Boneful ( talk) 01:49, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Ivar the Boneful. You beat me to it. Well done.
I was about to hit the article starting with the following ...
Diane Barwick, of the Australian Institute of Aborignal Studies, notes per Robinson: [1]
identified 1844 as Yowenjerre, W of 'Wilson's Promontory or Wommum', a 'powerful section of the Boonwerong nation at: Western Port who have (with the exception of two individuals) been exterminated'
and
in 1846 as Yowengerra E of 'the Tarwin who have been, with the exception of two youths, annihilated by the Gippsland Aborigines'
Sue Wesson, a researcher for the Victorian Aboriginal Corporation for Languages, notes per Robinson: [2]
In 1844 G.A. Robinson was told that a man named Kaborer was one of two survivors of a battle with the Borro borro willum (the Boon wurrung named for the Bushy Park people of Gippsland)
Marie Fels, an Australian ethno-historian, notes per Thomas: [3]
‘About four years ago [1836] 77 people were killed at Little Brighton not nine miles from Melbourne’.
Marie Fels also notes per Robinson: [3]
.. in 1844 .. the country inland from Cape Liptrap, Robinson recorded that it belonged to the Yowwengerre section of the Boongerong, now extinct, extirpated by the Boro Boro Willum or Gippsland blacks.
quoting Robinson:
The chief or mor mun of the Yowengerre was Pur. Rine, native place Warmun, is dead. This tribe once powerful are defunct and the country in consequence is unburnt having no native inhabitants. This is the reason why the country is so scrubby. The natives of Gippsland visit the inlet at Pubin.borro and other inlets in the snowing season. There must have been an awful massacre of these natives. Mun mun jin ind’s father was a Yowengerre; Mun mun jin ind gave me an account of the natives of the country and also gave me the names. The natives of Gippsland have killed 70 of the Boongerong at Brighton.
Fels notes that Thomas gave a subsequent account quoting Thomas: [3]
blacks remember the awful affair at Warrowen (place of sorrow) near where Brighton now stands, where in 1834 nearly a quarter of the Western Port blacks were massacred by the Gippsland blacks who stole up on them before dawn of day.
and also quotes a later accoiunt by Thomas:
[They have] no monuments whatever further than devices on trees where any great calamity have befallen them. On a large gum tree in Brighton, on the estate of Mr McMillan was a host of blacks lying as dead carved on the trunk for a yard or two up. The spot was called Woorroowen or incessant weeping. Near this spot in the year 1833 or 4, the Gippsland blacks stole at night upon the Western Port or Coast tribe and killed 60 or 70 of them.
Ian Clark, an academic aboriginal historian, notes per Robinson: [4]
With the exception of two men, Kurburra and Munmungina, Robinson noted in 1844 that the Yowengerre clan was defunct. According to Robinson, the clan had been exterminated by the neighbouring Ganai clan, the Boro Boro Willum. He noted that because of the practical demise of the Yowengerre, their country had become scrubby because it was not periodically burned.
carved tree - barwick - thomas exagerated numbers - smyth 1878 - this one still needs follow up
Regards. Aoziwe ( talk) 11:07, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
References
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Ivar the Boneful. No problem at all. Your version is much better than my first version would have been. Re Smyth 1878. There is the WS edition at https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Aborigines_of_Victoria/Volume_1 . Unfortunately volume II is not complete? I am still trying to locate Barwick's reference therein and other possible locations. According to TROVE there are 19 editions of the work, so that might be why the pages numbers given by Barwick do not line up with the WS edition. See https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/9328554 . Yes I saw Fels "hand writing analysis" etc. I agree Fels has most likely correctly interpretted Thomas' record, but whether that was correct in the first place is another matter. Aoziwe ( talk) 11:16, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
But he [Thomas] adds that one-half at least of one of the tribes inhabiting these counties had perished in 1834 in a war with the Gippsland and Omeo blacks, and that previous to the war the total number was certainly not less than 500
The native warfare generally does not result in the destruction of great numbers of the belligerents. One or two may fall in battle, never to rise again; but not seldom is a war concluded without actual loss of life. Mr. Thomas, in stating that 150 persons had perished in this war, merely repeated a story he had heard. [...] A war resulting in the death of 150 persons is not certainly common amongst the blacks.
Another reference?: A Bend in the Yarra: A History of the Merri Creek Protectorate Station and Merri Creek Aboriginal School 1841-1851, Ian D. Clark, Toby Heydon, Aboriginal Studies Press, 2004, page 32 [1] which refers to [2] page 62. Aoziwe ( talk) 13:11, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
Ok so, I read over the discussion on this page and the deletion page. One question I'm uncertain of is what happened to the Borro Borro Willun? These people are barely talked about, and they - according to this article -, massacred a Boonwurrung clan in Brighton and took over the area. However, a Kurnai presence in Brighton would surely be noteworthy? That's extremely far from Kurnai territory. Is there any record of these people living in the Brighton area?
According to this article someone used: https://figshare.com/articles/journal_contribution/Aboriginal_versus_European_perspectives_on_country/3826671 it seems like they say the Kurnai country shifted from the east to the west side of Wilson's prom; this suggests to me that by killing the Borro Borro who lived in Brighton they allowed themselves to take over ownership of an area around Wilson's Prom. But that doesn't really make any sense to me, because that area is still very far from Brighton and all the other way on the other side of Western Port Bay? Poketama ( talk) 16:44, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for that, that makes a bit more sense now. About a days walk to Brighton is feasible I suppose. I'm unsure what happened to the Borro Borro though and if there was any further evidence of occupation in that area. I'll update if I find any more info. Poketama ( talk) 01:38, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on 22 February 2020. The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The article needs a lot of work, but I can't see any reason to conclude that the event didn't take place. There are three secondary sources already in the article. Additional journal source here from Ian Clark mentions a battle/massacre and gives additional details about the Yowengerre (Yowengare, Yowenjerre, Yowengarra). Also mentioned here and here. Are there any sources disputing that it took place, or that Robinson fabricated similar events? Even then these would need to be weighted accordingly with contradictory sources and wouldn't be cause to just delete the article. Ivar the Boneful ( talk) 01:49, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Ivar the Boneful. You beat me to it. Well done.
I was about to hit the article starting with the following ...
Diane Barwick, of the Australian Institute of Aborignal Studies, notes per Robinson: [1]
identified 1844 as Yowenjerre, W of 'Wilson's Promontory or Wommum', a 'powerful section of the Boonwerong nation at: Western Port who have (with the exception of two individuals) been exterminated'
and
in 1846 as Yowengerra E of 'the Tarwin who have been, with the exception of two youths, annihilated by the Gippsland Aborigines'
Sue Wesson, a researcher for the Victorian Aboriginal Corporation for Languages, notes per Robinson: [2]
In 1844 G.A. Robinson was told that a man named Kaborer was one of two survivors of a battle with the Borro borro willum (the Boon wurrung named for the Bushy Park people of Gippsland)
Marie Fels, an Australian ethno-historian, notes per Thomas: [3]
‘About four years ago [1836] 77 people were killed at Little Brighton not nine miles from Melbourne’.
Marie Fels also notes per Robinson: [3]
.. in 1844 .. the country inland from Cape Liptrap, Robinson recorded that it belonged to the Yowwengerre section of the Boongerong, now extinct, extirpated by the Boro Boro Willum or Gippsland blacks.
quoting Robinson:
The chief or mor mun of the Yowengerre was Pur. Rine, native place Warmun, is dead. This tribe once powerful are defunct and the country in consequence is unburnt having no native inhabitants. This is the reason why the country is so scrubby. The natives of Gippsland visit the inlet at Pubin.borro and other inlets in the snowing season. There must have been an awful massacre of these natives. Mun mun jin ind’s father was a Yowengerre; Mun mun jin ind gave me an account of the natives of the country and also gave me the names. The natives of Gippsland have killed 70 of the Boongerong at Brighton.
Fels notes that Thomas gave a subsequent account quoting Thomas: [3]
blacks remember the awful affair at Warrowen (place of sorrow) near where Brighton now stands, where in 1834 nearly a quarter of the Western Port blacks were massacred by the Gippsland blacks who stole up on them before dawn of day.
and also quotes a later accoiunt by Thomas:
[They have] no monuments whatever further than devices on trees where any great calamity have befallen them. On a large gum tree in Brighton, on the estate of Mr McMillan was a host of blacks lying as dead carved on the trunk for a yard or two up. The spot was called Woorroowen or incessant weeping. Near this spot in the year 1833 or 4, the Gippsland blacks stole at night upon the Western Port or Coast tribe and killed 60 or 70 of them.
Ian Clark, an academic aboriginal historian, notes per Robinson: [4]
With the exception of two men, Kurburra and Munmungina, Robinson noted in 1844 that the Yowengerre clan was defunct. According to Robinson, the clan had been exterminated by the neighbouring Ganai clan, the Boro Boro Willum. He noted that because of the practical demise of the Yowengerre, their country had become scrubby because it was not periodically burned.
carved tree - barwick - thomas exagerated numbers - smyth 1878 - this one still needs follow up
Regards. Aoziwe ( talk) 11:07, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
References
{{
cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter |date-accessed=
ignored (
help)
{{
citation}}
: Check |isbn=
value: invalid character (
help); Unknown parameter |date-accessed=
ignored (
help)
Ivar the Boneful. No problem at all. Your version is much better than my first version would have been. Re Smyth 1878. There is the WS edition at https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Aborigines_of_Victoria/Volume_1 . Unfortunately volume II is not complete? I am still trying to locate Barwick's reference therein and other possible locations. According to TROVE there are 19 editions of the work, so that might be why the pages numbers given by Barwick do not line up with the WS edition. See https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/9328554 . Yes I saw Fels "hand writing analysis" etc. I agree Fels has most likely correctly interpretted Thomas' record, but whether that was correct in the first place is another matter. Aoziwe ( talk) 11:16, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
But he [Thomas] adds that one-half at least of one of the tribes inhabiting these counties had perished in 1834 in a war with the Gippsland and Omeo blacks, and that previous to the war the total number was certainly not less than 500
The native warfare generally does not result in the destruction of great numbers of the belligerents. One or two may fall in battle, never to rise again; but not seldom is a war concluded without actual loss of life. Mr. Thomas, in stating that 150 persons had perished in this war, merely repeated a story he had heard. [...] A war resulting in the death of 150 persons is not certainly common amongst the blacks.
Another reference?: A Bend in the Yarra: A History of the Merri Creek Protectorate Station and Merri Creek Aboriginal School 1841-1851, Ian D. Clark, Toby Heydon, Aboriginal Studies Press, 2004, page 32 [1] which refers to [2] page 62. Aoziwe ( talk) 13:11, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
Ok so, I read over the discussion on this page and the deletion page. One question I'm uncertain of is what happened to the Borro Borro Willun? These people are barely talked about, and they - according to this article -, massacred a Boonwurrung clan in Brighton and took over the area. However, a Kurnai presence in Brighton would surely be noteworthy? That's extremely far from Kurnai territory. Is there any record of these people living in the Brighton area?
According to this article someone used: https://figshare.com/articles/journal_contribution/Aboriginal_versus_European_perspectives_on_country/3826671 it seems like they say the Kurnai country shifted from the east to the west side of Wilson's prom; this suggests to me that by killing the Borro Borro who lived in Brighton they allowed themselves to take over ownership of an area around Wilson's Prom. But that doesn't really make any sense to me, because that area is still very far from Brighton and all the other way on the other side of Western Port Bay? Poketama ( talk) 16:44, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for that, that makes a bit more sense now. About a days walk to Brighton is feasible I suppose. I'm unsure what happened to the Borro Borro though and if there was any further evidence of occupation in that area. I'll update if I find any more info. Poketama ( talk) 01:38, 20 June 2022 (UTC)