![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Here's the somewhat more temperate-sounding lead paragraph from about two weeks ago:
Strikes me we've had a number of fairly POV changes to this. Is there a source on him being a 'radical leftist'? We've lost his claims of being of mixed heritage, his co-chair of AIM, and his 'vocalness' on Indian issues, etc. Are any of those either not factual, or not notable? And of course, we've 'gained' Eichmanns. Alai 06:10, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This page is so obviously NPOV and should be tagged as such. Any reading of this and the previous edits to the page would see the obvious NPOV expressed in this entry.
You guys might wanna check just about everything you have here, starting with the year Churchill was born. Next, you might check the footnotes on that coaim quote you have citing John Ross. The actual Ojibwe News article says nothing of the kind. Check your sources.
--jwpaine
Please explain how this (current text) Ward L. Churchill (born October 2, 1947) is an American academic and activist of part Native American descent. The author of many books and articles, he is a tenured professor of ethnic studies at University of Colorado at Boulder and co-chairman of the American Indian Movement of Colorado (Colorado AIM). He is very outspoken on Native American issues, the FBI and police states, and his published work characterizes the United States as an imperialist power with a history of genocide. In 2005, Churchill became the subject of intense media scrutiny because of an essay he wrote in response to the September 11, 2001 attacks.
Is stronger than this: (last edit by me)? On what basis did you make this reversion? Ward L. Churchill (born October 2, 1947), is one of the leading scholars of American Indian studies in America. Of partial Native American descent himelf, he is a tenured professor and former department chairman of ethnic studies at University of Colorado at Boulder, in addition he is co-chairman of the American Indian Movement of Colorado (Colorado AIM). Author of many books and articles, he is particularly outspoken on Native American issues as well as the FBI and police states. Some of his published work characterizes the United States as imperialist power with a history of genocide.
In 2001 Churchill wrote an essay in response to the September 11, 2001 attacks. In 2005, following a broadcast on Fox News' O'Reilly Report, Churchill became the subject -- some argue target --of intense media scrutiny and an going public debate. This article's focus is primarily on this debate the key issues of center on freedom of speech, academic freedom and Churchill's own ethnicity.
Regarding, "It was Lord Jeffrey Amherst, a British General, who suggested this plan in 1763, a decade before the United States government existed," I believe this sentence is correct. (Though more specifically, Amherst was the British Commander-in-Chief in North America during the finale of the French and Indian War.)
Also, it may be that a commander at Pittsburg -- I think his name was Eycher -- carried out Amherst's suggestion during Pontiac's War. The author of my source, the book The Conquerers ISBN 1931672075 by Allan W. Eckert, however, has not always proven to be factually unimpeachable in his books on the American frontier. (The controversy regarding whether the Shawnee Chief Bluejacket was of white or native descent being a foremost example. Though some controversy remains, it's pretty clear that Eckert was wrong, and that Blue Jacket was not a white captive raised by the Shawnees. See Ohio History Central and Journal of the Illinois State Historical Society.)
T'would be a shame if Churchill fabricated facts, when an actual event all the while bore him out. (Although not regarding the US government per se. But at least Amherst and Eycher were a part of that fun-to-bash, and often-times richly-deserving-to-be-bashed, group, the Anglo-Americans. ô¿ô Mar. 09, 19:40:20 UTC
This header seems dubious. He's claimed to be confirmed 3/16 Indian, and implied he's more likely to be 3/8, right? Alai 08:13, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Churchill has claimed that he is Cherokee and he has claimed to be Metis and he has claimed to be Creek and he has claimed to be a Keetoowah, but he can't prove any of this.-- Keetoowah 17:53, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
A recent edit summary said: Churchill never claimed to of indian descent, heading for entry changed to non-NPOV language
And basically made a wholesale deletion. Oh well. This seems clearly wrong to me; he's been documented as having made such claims. Can we first of all agree an appropriate wording as to what he has claimed about his ancestry? (Let's separate out the question of their accuracy for the sake of present discussion.) One report has him saying his mother is 3/8 Indian, and implying, in much vaguer terms, that his father was 'just as much' or something like that. Has he made other specific (different or otherwise) claims on that? What precisely has he claimed about tribal membership? The editting on this page does not make great what's being changed for reasons of accuracy, what for neutrality, and what from personal dislike, so it'd be useful to have a summary of what's in dispute. Alai 07:34, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This article, in its current form, is one of the worst I have ever seen on Wikipedia. It is an appalling mess. To deal with it, I think we need to define a basic structure, like this:
Can we at least agree on a neutral introduction? This is my proposal:
With appropriate links, I think this is starting to head in the right direction. Keetoowah, can you please try to shorten and focus your comments and get behind creating a lucid, fact-based, NPOV entry? Wikipedia is not supposed to be a forum for biased opinions which you seem to be determined to make this article into. There's a lot wanting here in terms of presenting an honest, fact-based article and too much "raw text" still remains as well as one sided links. The idea should be to create an article worthy of an encyclopedia, not some message board ranting and raving.-- Calicocat 19:02, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Maybe it should just say, "has dedicated much of his life and professional career to Native American Issues," or something along those lines. Calicocat 19:12, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Some additional comments:
Churchill is under fierce attack in the US at the moment. Wikipedia should not participate in this battle but simply describe it. Your comments please -- Viajero 13:13, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
A few weeks ago, Keetoowah wrote:
I see no reason for written opinions of people (along with source for the comments) should be erased from the article. There seems to be a question about WC's claim to authentic Native American ancestry. Let's address this by saying:
I received a private e-mail complaining about K's tone, but in view of the reception he originally got here, I'd say he's showing remarkable restraint. Let's stick to addressing the issues. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 18:20, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
Full-texts belong at Wikisource. Paraphrase when you can, make direct quotes (with ellipses, if called for) when you can't. This article is getting far too long.
You may be right, but nobody's ever going to be convinced if your attempt to prove it is entirely unreadable. Grammar, spelling and overall readability are important. The great thing about Wikipedia is that you can instantly correct your own mistakes and deficiencies. -- 69.245.192.52 19:03, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC) That was me; I thought I was logged in. -- Jpbrenna 19:20, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I did a little googling, and found this gem of an article [1] in an online newspaper. I should recruit the writer to join our project, it's so evenhanded. Okay, now that I've glanced at the talk and skimmed one online source - I guess I should actually read our article! -- Uncle Ed (talk) 19:09, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
Look, I'm Jewish and anti-Communist, but I also believe in free speech. If this guy wants to make a fool of himself with wild remarks, why should we Wikipedians get in an uproar?
Democracy now describes him as:
Ward Churchill, a professor in the Ethnic Studies department at the University of Colorado, Boulder. Churchill is a well-known activist with the American Indian Movement and author of a number of books on genocide against Native Americans and the US government’s COINTELPRO program. [2]
Hmm. He published an article saying essentially the US had it coming to them, even if the attacks weren't justified in themselves (which seems self-contradictory in left-Hegelian way typical of campus Marxists). He asserts that by America's own standards as applied to bombings in Iraq, the attacks are justified: civilian buildings containing military targets are fair game. But it's not clear what sort of parity he's really talking about.
He claims that the US has caused so many deaths that it opens itself to retribution, or something like that. Anyway, he resigned to "clear the decks for action" so no one will accuse him of neglecting his job while defending his remarks. Rather noble, in a way.
... and the little Eichmanns thing was a referenc to Hannah Arendt's comment on Eichmann as the epitome of "banal evil", someone who while not positively malicious seeks self-advancement as a cog within a malicious machine. So I guess he was saying that average or upper-class Americans are evil in the same way as Eichmann for profiting from our "evil system".
Okay, you either agree with him or not. Why should the article be so hard to write? Because of the anti-Semitic verbiage? Ho, hum. Everyone picks on the Jews, what's so special about this guy? -- Uncle Ed (talk) 19:24, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
The current state of the article looks much improved to me (but I'm no expert on the topic). Can we agree some wording on this for the intro section? "Claims mixed white and NA heritage" seems good to me, but has been deleted or reverted multiply; qualifying this with how controversial it was met with the same fate. "Makes controversial claims about his heritage" would be a possibility, but might be over-cautious. Broadly speaking isn't it at least agreed he is at least half-white (at least 3/4, by some accounts); has some NA ancestry; has vague relationships with various tribes; is a full member of no tribe? Though as Ed says, agreed facts are less important than agreed reporting of different views. At any rate, if there are no immediate, drastic changes from this version I'd be happy to drop the disputed tag. Alai 04:52, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As I understand Churchill's use of the term "little Eichmann," both in his original article and his later explanations, it was intended as a specific reference to Arendt's "banality of evil." This should be included in a discussion of this term. Whether or not one agrees with Churchill, one should recognize that he was not accusing anyone of the World Trade Center of committing crimes as heinous as Eichmann himself, but asserting that as Eichmann knowingly facilitated Nazi extermination policies, technocrats at the World Trade Center knowingly facilitated U.S. policies which, in Churchill's view, made the World Trade Center a terrorist target. As to defining Native Americans by bloodline, this is not much different from the Nazis, who defined Jews by bloodline. I don't think it is wise for Wikipedia to decide "Who is a Jew" or "Who is a Native American." Sentience 21:32, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have moved the text here: /Ken Lawrence. If it is to be used, it needs be summarized. Viajero 21:10, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have moved the AIM text here: /AIM text. It is too long and rambling to be included as such, but there may be useful information which can be summarized. -- Viajero 21:15, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Viajero that all those texts are far too long. Keep in mind that this article should be a summary of this guy life, and should be meaningful for anyone to just understand who is is, what is principles are, what he did etc... Think of him dying tomorrow... What would be MOST important to remember and qualify him ?
Generally, we can notice that in most cases there is an ongoing controversy, an article on a topic grows till it becomes enormous and completely non-balanced. Then it takes months for the article to go back with a balance report of the events.
I suspect that when an article gets fat with ongoing even, then the whole mass of comments added on the spot should belong to a wikinews article. And only after the dust settles should the wikipedia article be cleaned up, and the information SUMMARIZED to become part of the encyclopedic article. Remember, encyclopedia does not necessarily mean ALL information about the guy should be there, nor only one majority point of view. It seems to me most ongoing articles on wikipedia are just suffering this. Additions of rants.
Has there been discussions yet on how to link wikinews articles to encyclopedic ones ?
Anthere 06:18, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Some articles have over-flabby lead sections, but this one is just anorexic. The first paragraph -- or three! -- clearly needs to allude to the substantiative issues addressed in the articles, especially: his ancestry, and the disputes thereof; and his writings and statements about 9/11. Those are, after all, why he has an article here -- not for the reasons in the heavily redacted current text. We need to establish some consensus as to structure here, not just indulge ourselves with large unilateral edits -- especially ones that duplicate large amounts of text for no evident reason. Alai 08:54, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I agree, however the table of contents lays it all out, so in this case a short lead might be best since there's so much POV here, but it's heading in the right direction...
In the talk pages and in some early versions there was better NPOV writing which might be restored, but, again, with such a hot topic, perhaps it's best to start with a sold NPOV paragraph and build from there.
The issue of the painting is potentially a serious one and one that should be watched and treated carefully in an NPOV way. If you have any doubt about that just look into copyright law and cases. This is not the same as bringing up things like a late payment on a phone bill or if someone drinks milk directly from the carton. Calicocat 17:16, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
How much dirt could be dug up on you if the full force of the right was out to get you? Whats dangerous here is that Ward Churchill is just a kicking off point as Newt Gingrich has said -- Ward Churchill is the first in what will be a purge of academia. As an article in counterpunch.org said, the right wants America´s universities to sound exactly like Fox News.
When did WC ever claim to represent all Indian tribes? What has his point on "little eichmanns" have anything to do with his heritage? Has he relied on his supposed native american roots to make this point? I think his racial-cultural heritage is a red herring, thrown up by partisan interests to attack him rather than deal with his thesis directly. And what methodology does AIM use to determine or deny native american heritage? Why is much credence placed on their seemingly arbitrary assertions? -- Argon 02:32, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I feel the same way as Scott, but I am not an Indian so perhaps I do not understand. But it seems to me if someone is publicly advancing the Indian movement and Ward was doing as party of the Colorado Indian Movement why are you so opposed to him. Is he harming the cause? I would like to understand your views on that. I believe one of the real tragedies of the Ward Churchill case is how vulnerable he is to attack because the people who should be supporting him are too busy infighting. If Churchill is fired it will be a blow to Ethnic Studies at all universities, a field which is not thought of highly by the people trying to get him removed. -- Wilbertoki 04:54, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
If I might chime in on the artwork... Since that's originally what this section was about, for all of five lines. There was some reverting and re-editting between "copyright infringement" and "plagiarism". Now, I gotta say that if it was my art being photoshopped or traced the heck out of it, (or the person grading work submitted with that degree of duplication), I'd be using the latter term (or both, for good measure). However, this isn't about my judgement, so if we say the P-word, can we make sure it's sourced? (Likewise, if we want to start talking about him being hounded by right-wing attack dogs -- sure, if a notable source had said something like this, but opining it ourselves here is original research or worse...) Alai 08:27, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Calicocat, I restored some of the changes you did to the intro and the first section partly to bring them in line with the way we customarily organize biographical articles.
First, and this goes for all articles, the intro should be one paragraph of three to five sentences which sum up all the noteworthy facts about the subject so the reader can decide whether to continue. Normally, in the case of bios, this does not include place of birth or place of death, since that is usually not signifcant (assassinations, etc., excepted). It is also important to mention nationality, since this is international reference work.
Second, the "Early years" section which I restored is usually called "Life" on other biographical pages (or indeed "Early years" if the material warrants). Here, I am using "Early years" because that is all we know at the moment. We do not know what he did between leaving the army in 1969 and getting appointed to UC, the date of which we are likewise ignorant. This section needs to be fleshed out and turned into "Life".
I urge you to look at other biographical articles, like Henry Kissinger, Margaret Sanger, or Louis Armstrong to get a sense of how bios are built up. They tend to be endless variations on the structure: Life, Work, Legacy/Controversy
HTH, -- Viajero 17:02, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for the information, but did this really warrant a section on the talk page? I'll take this under advisement. Calicocat 20:02, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Keetoowah, I am sorry about the "stooping low" thing. First off, I certainly did not mean you. I was thinking of right-wing pundits like that jive-ass turkey O'Reilly on Fox. I have only the highest regard for you, and I'd like to see your views on Churchill's race credentials fairly represented in the Ward Churchill argument.
Viajero cut them into a subarticle, but I'm assuming that's only temporary. He made the suggestion that the info there be summarized and re-incorporated into the main article.
You are new here, and I think we should all be a bit more welcoming. :-) -- Uncle Ed (talk) 17:29, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)
It seems the right-wing and Indian attack dogs can't be honest about creating an NPOV Wikipedia article on Professor Churchill. The double standards are appalling and relentless which is, I think, part of the whole "big lie" propaganda effort of which this article is but a part. As someone else mentioned, this issue itself should be reflected in this entry, but it seems likely that such an effort would render an endless stream of postings designed to defeat honest scholarship and destroy creation of sound, NPOV, fact-based entry.
The relentless effort to frame Churchill continues and I think the substance of the effort is to make Churchill a symbol for use by right-wing intellectual terrorists and fascists -- that is the true intent here, to create a symbol, an easy shorthand so that anyone can be written off as a "Ward Churchill." The utter lack of sincerity both of the right-wing and Indians are two pillars of this effort, their lies and negative framing standing as tall on the landscape as did once World Trade Center. You should be ashamed of yourselves for this.
I've learned a lot about wikipedia from attempting to work collaboratively on this entry with hope that it would turn into an informative article of honest, sound scholarship, but that seems impossible since the propagandists, the anti-Churhillists just won't allow it. Congratulations on helping to destroy Wikipedia. I've had enough of suffering fools for now. Go on dogs, savage the entry, in doing so you expose yourself for the hate-mongering, anti-intellectuals you are. I'll continue to watch the page as you bask in what will surly end up being a Pyrrhic victory for you.
I have restored the following information which was removed by an anonymous editor:
It is not unusual that Americans who have some Native American blood, but whose families live within the mainstream community, know their heritage from family tradition, but encounter difficulty proving it to the satisfaction of administrators of affirmative action programs [3].
It was removed without comment or discussion. This is inappropriate. When I googled this topic I found a number of links discussing this problem. Fred Bauder 15:09, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)
It is not appropriate to remove material which is well referenced from Wikipedia articles such at this material you removed without comment from the article on Ward Churchill Fred Bauder 15:03, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)
It is not unusual that Americans who have some Native American blood, but whose families live within the mainstream community, know their heritage from family tradition, but encounter difficulty proving it to the satisfaction of administrators of affirmative action programs [5].
If you find some problem with material such as this which is referenced please bring it up on the talk page of the article and mention the reason you removed it in your edit summary. Fred Bauder 15:03, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)
Interesting comment about "constant vilgilence." With things so polarzied and controversial about this issue, there is a legitmate reason the article's neutrality is disputed. Sorry about not following the correct protocol--but here's the problem with that particular link--it is not on point to Ward Churchill. It is a general comment that people who have Native American blood sometimes have difficulty proving it. A valid point, but unless there is some connection directly to Ward Churchill on why he has similar difficulty in proving his Native American heritage, then it is a hidden editorial response to the controversy by Wikipedia. Has Ward Churchill ever claimed that he had difficulty proving his Native American geneology? I have not heard Ward Churchill raise the same issues in the affirmative action link (if I am mistaken, then that is the proper link that should be made). There is a difference between linking to a legitimate editorial either pro or con on Ward Churchill (which is perfectly valid and welcomed) vs. plugging in editorial commentary indirectly as that link did.
I'll think about what you are saying, but another procedural matter is to sign your writing on the talk page. Use ~~~~. Fred Bauder 19:10, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)
Calicocat, virtually every biography of a Jewish person identifies that they are Jewish in the intro. This is not POV. Moreover in the case of Churchill, his ethnicity is highly topical, since it is also a matter of controversy. Also, in every bio, we identify the individual's nationality. Perhaps you could familiarize yourself with other Wikipedia articles before inisisting so relentlessly what is right and wrong. Viajero 20:48, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Your insistence on putting a remark about his ethnic background in the first sentence is obviously POV and pedantic references to the wiki style manuals are just subterfuge to help you sustain your obvious POV intent to run not an article, but hatchet job on Churchill. Calicocat 21:43, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This language is much more NPOV, accurate, subsantiated by factsand it includes your pet issue of ethnicity.
Ward Churchill, an American academic, is a tenured professor of ethnic studies at University of Colorado at Boulder and co-chairman of the American Indian Movement of Colorado (Colorado AIM). In some of his published work he characterizes the United States as an imperialist power with a history of genocide. Professor Churchill's specialization has centered on Native American issues, but he has also written on subjects such as the FBI and police states. In 2005, Churchill became the subject of intense right-wing propaganda campaign and debate in the United States because of an essay he wrote in 2001 about September 11, 2001 attacks.
Churchill is a Viet Nam war veteran and is of mixed White and Native American ethnicity. Calicocat 21:48, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Per wikipedia style manual on a Biography entry.
Opening paragraph The opening paragraph should give:
1. Name(s) and title(s), if any (see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)) 2. Dates of birth and death, if known (see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Dates of birth and death) 3. Nationality
Not Ethnicity -- over and over it's been pointed out that Churchill is American, that's his nationality, his ethnicity is simply not relevant to the lead and especially not as the first sentence. This false notion of yours might be best addressed by reading the Style Manual yourself. Your insistance on including it over and over is, I fear, but only a reflection of your and others particular obsession with this rather small aspect of this article and of Churchill in general. The harping on it is just another example of the attempt to use this piece not as a good and interesting wikipeida entry but for a particular POV slash and burn of Churchill. Calicocat 22:44, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
4. What they did 5. Why they are significant
To All: Continual POV reversion of this page represent an effort not to create an valid, useful, NPOV entry, but to have this article be nothing more than an attack page on Professor Churchill designed to do nothing more than support the particular political and propaganda agenda of those clearly biased against Churchill. I have had reasonable language reverted countless times and almost gave up on the article, but after thinking about it further decided that the article deserved to be made as NPOV and accurate as possible.
It's better than where it started, but it has now turning into a petty reversion contest and this serves neither the letter or spirit of the Style Manual or Policy of Wikipedia. Any voices of rationality and reason on this would be most welcome, but I fear nothing short of mediation or perhaps stronger measures are going to render impossible creation of a fair and useful entry.
The person most responsbile for the irrational behavior in this is user Viajero http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Viajero, who, oddly, on his user page claims to be one against such practices himself, which based on my experience with this user seem utterly hypocritical. He seems rather good at playing the liar's paradox game and intent on foisting his POV here.
Calicocat 05:42, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Now, please hold on Calicocat. First of all, please stop being too aggressive and critical of other povs. Viajero and others have been talking to you in a very fair tone of voice, and it would help that you do just the same.
Now, apart from details in the rest of your last revert, I understand the main part of your conflict is about whether the first sentence should mention or not mention the ethnic origin of Ward or not.
Tell me if I understand well or not, but it seems you think this mention should not be there, as not being relevant.
On the contrary, Viajery considers that it is bringing important information.
What I will notice is that in the rest of the introduction, several points are mentionned, which are in relation with ethnicity, in particular the fact he is a professor in ethnic studies, co-chairman of the American Indian Movement of Colorado, and that he is very vocal on ethnic discussions.
Hence, definitly a man who has turned his life toward defense of certain ethnies.
I think it is then relevant to mention his own origins, whether controversial or not controversial, because it helps to place a person. Me being a french, I can absolutely say I have never heard of that guy in my life, and even less of the controversies surrounding him. What I know, as a pure reader discovering the guy is that to understand the guy, I feel more informed to know of his origins before reading what he does, rather than after. I approach the information differently, though I might agree that it might twist my understanding a little. Still, sorry, I feel that we first need information which help us to try to understand why a person act in a certain way rather than in another. So, at least, to my opinion, it seems it is more relevant to know the ethnie of the man than not. Similarly, I would feel I am lacking information if you were not giving me the nationality of the person. Finally, an ethnicity is not a pov, it is just a statement in relation of someone origin. It is no more pov than saying someone is young, old, a woman or a man.
If it is a problem to cite it in the first sentence, what about twisting the paragraph to indicate his ethnie at the top, but possibly not exactly in the first line of the text ?
I would recommand avoid the word propaganda, which is quite heavily loaded generally.
I wish that you find a solution rather than reverting each other, which could lead you to be blocked.
Anthere 06:07, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Student demonstrations and statements pro and con seem evenly divided. this issue could be fixed by citing a source perhaps ? Anthere
Calicocat, I find it difficult to see the argument that Viajero's edit (and reverts) are POV, and yours are a model of NPOV. This article was one almighty mess, between horribly editted POV either way, until he recently cleaned it up, and he is, for all my money, to be nothing but commended for it. There's been significant discussion of WC's ethnicity in the news media, it seems to me, so the argument that this doesn't belong in the article is absurd. And given that it is in the article. what possible justification is there for not having it in the lead? Now, if you feel that the reason for the attention to his ethnicity is because of a right-wing hatchet job, and can reference that with respect to notable third-party commentators, go for it. A lead section that characterised him as a mild-mannered workaday professor and vet, which you seem to insist on working your way back to, is completely inappropriate as it misrepresents a) the article, and b) the reason for his notability in the first place. Alai 06:21, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I've edited the intro to try and include the controversy, as it's important information - at least at present-, but without putting over any particular point of view. I hope this will help settle the dispute ongoing, and we can get this article looking great. Yours with WikiLove, nsh 18:38, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)
I've reviewed this article at User:Calicocat's request and don't see that it's all that strongly NPOV at this point. I think it could do with more discussion of the purported right-wing "hatchet job" against him (if such can be done in a neutral way). The only section I felt pushed the NPOV envelope too far was the seemingly irrelevant comment about proving ethnicity to affirmative action departments. This smacks of sniping at (or about) political correctness and affirmative action, topics which are otherwise not discussed in any significant way in this article. If someone can actually tie this content back to the rest of the article, then perhaps it belongs. As it stood, it had no place in the article, and so I removed it. Kelly Martin 02:15, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)
As this article has developed it has become increasingly clear that what we have here is not and should not be classified as a " Biography" of Professor Churchill. As was suggested to me, I've looked at many Biographical articles on Wikipedia and the entry on Biography itself and I just don't see how this article falls into that category.
True, this article, as it stands, contains some biographic information about Professor Churchill but the substantive portion, and its primary foci, center on the recent controversy over a single essay he wrote and the questions and controversies that have arisen subsequently, namely -- his ethnicity, academic freedom, freedom of speech and perhaps what might be characterized as media manipulation by Bill O'Reilly. Given the huge volume of Professor Churchill's work, this one issue, the single essay, seems a completely unsound and, I think, unfair basis for classification of the article as an authoritative biography, especially when contrasted with standards evident in other Wikipedia biographic entries, e.g., Igor Stravinsky, Mickey Mantle, Benjamin Franklin.
However, -- and I don't know how this works being still rather newbie at all this -- I think it could be an excellent candidate for an "in the news section" that I see posted on the front section of the English Wikipedia.
As always, comments and assistance are most appreciated. Calicocat 18:32, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I'll admit I never heard of him and would be quite happy had that pleasant state of affairs continued. Fred Bauder 15:36, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)
== User Keetoowah: please justify deletion ==
Could you please justify your removal earlier today of a long section on Churchill's books?
[6]
If you don't consider Churchill a "scholar" that is your opinion. There is no reason why this article should not review his written work. --
Viajero 17:06, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I do not much care for Calicocat's proposed introductory section. I've only read a few thousand Wikipedia articles, but I think that as long as this article is titled Ward Churchill it should focus on Ward Churchill and not on some other topic, no matter how related. If Calicocat wishes this article not to focus so much on the controversy surrounding some of Churchill's recent writings, he should expand the other sections of this biographical article to discuss them as well. In other words, cure the defect, rather than entrenching it. I also prefer Viajero's rendition of what is essentially the same facts, and believe that it is more NPOV than Calicocat's.
I do not wish to see a revert war get started over this issue. It's quite obvious from reading the talk page and edit notes that emotions are running high about this article. I would suggest that the more engaged parties should step back for a bit. Kelly Martin 01:49, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)
Calicocat wrote:
The analogy is lame. The controversy around The Rite of Spring happened more than ninety years ago. Not many people care about it these days. That the article on Stravinsky says nothing about the controversy is nonetheless a shortcoming (the Rite article does at least mention it). I have read comments by critics at the time and it would be most appropriate to include a sampling of them, and I would be happy to do so myself if I had the material at my fingertips. Alas, "high culture" is not well covered in Wikipedia. Among the Internet audience that it attracts, potential editors are more interested in other things, like technology and current affairs. Ward Churchill is currently a major news item, and that's why the article looks the way it does. It is safe to say that over ninety years it will look much differently. -- Viajero 21:33, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have some sympathy with Keetoowah on the "unqualifying" of "part Native American descent". His ethnicity clear is controversial, especially as regards tribal membership qualification, claims thereof, degree of Indianness, etc. But is there doubt about him having any NA blood? (One of the links in the article seemed to be implying as much.) If there is such doubt, the statement ought to be qualified in some way. In any case, I'd favour some allusion to the general controversy, given that it's so prominent in the article. (As it stands, one can imagine a casual reader doing a bit of a double-take when they reach the "Ethnicity" section.) Alai 03:39, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yes, there is doubt that he has any Indian blood at all. It is even possible for him to not know it himself as White people were frequently adopted into tribes, especially in the Northeast. Those people I would count Native American but some would not. Fred Bauder 15:24, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)
I honestly don't see what this section's adding that's on topic. This isn't supposed to be an essay, but an encyclopaedia article, on matters specifically relating to Ward Churchill. Non-specific musings on the First Amendment and academic freedom would be better at those articles. Alai 18:20, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have reverted this afternoon's edits to this section by CalicoCat. The Hamilton College quote lacks specific relevance. I know it's from an article about Churchill, but the quote does not mention Churchill in any way, so the quote itself lacks relevance to this article. The petition I removed for bias: Churchill controls the American Indian Movement of Colorado; citing to that petition without mentioning that is dishonest and quite clearly not NPOV. Reverting was the easiest way to remove this inappropriate content and repair the grammar errors and stylistic issues introduced by CalicoCat's edits. Kelly Martin 02:01, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)
I just stumbled on this page, having never seen it before, and was immediately struck by the negative tone of the opening sentence, which totally put me off of reading the article. To be of interest to someone like myself the article needs to offer a balanced biographical approach. The first thing I want to know about him is how does he define himself and how does he identify himself. This article appears to be mired in the problem of representation to the exclusion of a basic and credible biographical account of this man's life and work. The article also seems to confuse his credibility as an academic with his identity, in short turning the entry into a rant about identity politics. My suggestion: take the emphasis off of identity and put it back on the subject matter at hand. What has he written, what does he care about, and then include a section on who his critics are and how he has responded to them. Let readers draw their own conclusions about his identity and integrity. [[ Piezo 19:00, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)]]
There used to be subsections for the "Other controversies" section. They used to be "Academic fraud" and "Treason" and the like, which was totally biased and misleading because all of those things were allegations, not proven. So I put words in them to clearly indicate that they were accusations, allegations, etc., and this was removed completely with the explanation that we shouldn;t editorialize in the subheads... Excuse me, what? Putting "Treason" there is editorializing, clarifying that they are accusations is not, that's strictly being factual. I can only hope that this was a misstatement of what was intended. DreamGuy 19:30, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)
I am to understand it that's it's being argued that WP:MOS#Punctuation is to be completely ignored as "not policy", but WP:MOS#National_varieties_of_English is to be strictly adhered to in the case of all American topics -- including biographies, which people have objected to being treated as country-specific topics per se -- despite that fact that it says nothing at all about punctuation? I'm going to change this back; please explain your rationale further, anyone that's unhappy with this. Alai 22:46, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Here's the somewhat more temperate-sounding lead paragraph from about two weeks ago:
Strikes me we've had a number of fairly POV changes to this. Is there a source on him being a 'radical leftist'? We've lost his claims of being of mixed heritage, his co-chair of AIM, and his 'vocalness' on Indian issues, etc. Are any of those either not factual, or not notable? And of course, we've 'gained' Eichmanns. Alai 06:10, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This page is so obviously NPOV and should be tagged as such. Any reading of this and the previous edits to the page would see the obvious NPOV expressed in this entry.
You guys might wanna check just about everything you have here, starting with the year Churchill was born. Next, you might check the footnotes on that coaim quote you have citing John Ross. The actual Ojibwe News article says nothing of the kind. Check your sources.
--jwpaine
Please explain how this (current text) Ward L. Churchill (born October 2, 1947) is an American academic and activist of part Native American descent. The author of many books and articles, he is a tenured professor of ethnic studies at University of Colorado at Boulder and co-chairman of the American Indian Movement of Colorado (Colorado AIM). He is very outspoken on Native American issues, the FBI and police states, and his published work characterizes the United States as an imperialist power with a history of genocide. In 2005, Churchill became the subject of intense media scrutiny because of an essay he wrote in response to the September 11, 2001 attacks.
Is stronger than this: (last edit by me)? On what basis did you make this reversion? Ward L. Churchill (born October 2, 1947), is one of the leading scholars of American Indian studies in America. Of partial Native American descent himelf, he is a tenured professor and former department chairman of ethnic studies at University of Colorado at Boulder, in addition he is co-chairman of the American Indian Movement of Colorado (Colorado AIM). Author of many books and articles, he is particularly outspoken on Native American issues as well as the FBI and police states. Some of his published work characterizes the United States as imperialist power with a history of genocide.
In 2001 Churchill wrote an essay in response to the September 11, 2001 attacks. In 2005, following a broadcast on Fox News' O'Reilly Report, Churchill became the subject -- some argue target --of intense media scrutiny and an going public debate. This article's focus is primarily on this debate the key issues of center on freedom of speech, academic freedom and Churchill's own ethnicity.
Regarding, "It was Lord Jeffrey Amherst, a British General, who suggested this plan in 1763, a decade before the United States government existed," I believe this sentence is correct. (Though more specifically, Amherst was the British Commander-in-Chief in North America during the finale of the French and Indian War.)
Also, it may be that a commander at Pittsburg -- I think his name was Eycher -- carried out Amherst's suggestion during Pontiac's War. The author of my source, the book The Conquerers ISBN 1931672075 by Allan W. Eckert, however, has not always proven to be factually unimpeachable in his books on the American frontier. (The controversy regarding whether the Shawnee Chief Bluejacket was of white or native descent being a foremost example. Though some controversy remains, it's pretty clear that Eckert was wrong, and that Blue Jacket was not a white captive raised by the Shawnees. See Ohio History Central and Journal of the Illinois State Historical Society.)
T'would be a shame if Churchill fabricated facts, when an actual event all the while bore him out. (Although not regarding the US government per se. But at least Amherst and Eycher were a part of that fun-to-bash, and often-times richly-deserving-to-be-bashed, group, the Anglo-Americans. ô¿ô Mar. 09, 19:40:20 UTC
This header seems dubious. He's claimed to be confirmed 3/16 Indian, and implied he's more likely to be 3/8, right? Alai 08:13, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Churchill has claimed that he is Cherokee and he has claimed to be Metis and he has claimed to be Creek and he has claimed to be a Keetoowah, but he can't prove any of this.-- Keetoowah 17:53, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
A recent edit summary said: Churchill never claimed to of indian descent, heading for entry changed to non-NPOV language
And basically made a wholesale deletion. Oh well. This seems clearly wrong to me; he's been documented as having made such claims. Can we first of all agree an appropriate wording as to what he has claimed about his ancestry? (Let's separate out the question of their accuracy for the sake of present discussion.) One report has him saying his mother is 3/8 Indian, and implying, in much vaguer terms, that his father was 'just as much' or something like that. Has he made other specific (different or otherwise) claims on that? What precisely has he claimed about tribal membership? The editting on this page does not make great what's being changed for reasons of accuracy, what for neutrality, and what from personal dislike, so it'd be useful to have a summary of what's in dispute. Alai 07:34, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This article, in its current form, is one of the worst I have ever seen on Wikipedia. It is an appalling mess. To deal with it, I think we need to define a basic structure, like this:
Can we at least agree on a neutral introduction? This is my proposal:
With appropriate links, I think this is starting to head in the right direction. Keetoowah, can you please try to shorten and focus your comments and get behind creating a lucid, fact-based, NPOV entry? Wikipedia is not supposed to be a forum for biased opinions which you seem to be determined to make this article into. There's a lot wanting here in terms of presenting an honest, fact-based article and too much "raw text" still remains as well as one sided links. The idea should be to create an article worthy of an encyclopedia, not some message board ranting and raving.-- Calicocat 19:02, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Maybe it should just say, "has dedicated much of his life and professional career to Native American Issues," or something along those lines. Calicocat 19:12, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Some additional comments:
Churchill is under fierce attack in the US at the moment. Wikipedia should not participate in this battle but simply describe it. Your comments please -- Viajero 13:13, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
A few weeks ago, Keetoowah wrote:
I see no reason for written opinions of people (along with source for the comments) should be erased from the article. There seems to be a question about WC's claim to authentic Native American ancestry. Let's address this by saying:
I received a private e-mail complaining about K's tone, but in view of the reception he originally got here, I'd say he's showing remarkable restraint. Let's stick to addressing the issues. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 18:20, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
Full-texts belong at Wikisource. Paraphrase when you can, make direct quotes (with ellipses, if called for) when you can't. This article is getting far too long.
You may be right, but nobody's ever going to be convinced if your attempt to prove it is entirely unreadable. Grammar, spelling and overall readability are important. The great thing about Wikipedia is that you can instantly correct your own mistakes and deficiencies. -- 69.245.192.52 19:03, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC) That was me; I thought I was logged in. -- Jpbrenna 19:20, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I did a little googling, and found this gem of an article [1] in an online newspaper. I should recruit the writer to join our project, it's so evenhanded. Okay, now that I've glanced at the talk and skimmed one online source - I guess I should actually read our article! -- Uncle Ed (talk) 19:09, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
Look, I'm Jewish and anti-Communist, but I also believe in free speech. If this guy wants to make a fool of himself with wild remarks, why should we Wikipedians get in an uproar?
Democracy now describes him as:
Ward Churchill, a professor in the Ethnic Studies department at the University of Colorado, Boulder. Churchill is a well-known activist with the American Indian Movement and author of a number of books on genocide against Native Americans and the US government’s COINTELPRO program. [2]
Hmm. He published an article saying essentially the US had it coming to them, even if the attacks weren't justified in themselves (which seems self-contradictory in left-Hegelian way typical of campus Marxists). He asserts that by America's own standards as applied to bombings in Iraq, the attacks are justified: civilian buildings containing military targets are fair game. But it's not clear what sort of parity he's really talking about.
He claims that the US has caused so many deaths that it opens itself to retribution, or something like that. Anyway, he resigned to "clear the decks for action" so no one will accuse him of neglecting his job while defending his remarks. Rather noble, in a way.
... and the little Eichmanns thing was a referenc to Hannah Arendt's comment on Eichmann as the epitome of "banal evil", someone who while not positively malicious seeks self-advancement as a cog within a malicious machine. So I guess he was saying that average or upper-class Americans are evil in the same way as Eichmann for profiting from our "evil system".
Okay, you either agree with him or not. Why should the article be so hard to write? Because of the anti-Semitic verbiage? Ho, hum. Everyone picks on the Jews, what's so special about this guy? -- Uncle Ed (talk) 19:24, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
The current state of the article looks much improved to me (but I'm no expert on the topic). Can we agree some wording on this for the intro section? "Claims mixed white and NA heritage" seems good to me, but has been deleted or reverted multiply; qualifying this with how controversial it was met with the same fate. "Makes controversial claims about his heritage" would be a possibility, but might be over-cautious. Broadly speaking isn't it at least agreed he is at least half-white (at least 3/4, by some accounts); has some NA ancestry; has vague relationships with various tribes; is a full member of no tribe? Though as Ed says, agreed facts are less important than agreed reporting of different views. At any rate, if there are no immediate, drastic changes from this version I'd be happy to drop the disputed tag. Alai 04:52, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As I understand Churchill's use of the term "little Eichmann," both in his original article and his later explanations, it was intended as a specific reference to Arendt's "banality of evil." This should be included in a discussion of this term. Whether or not one agrees with Churchill, one should recognize that he was not accusing anyone of the World Trade Center of committing crimes as heinous as Eichmann himself, but asserting that as Eichmann knowingly facilitated Nazi extermination policies, technocrats at the World Trade Center knowingly facilitated U.S. policies which, in Churchill's view, made the World Trade Center a terrorist target. As to defining Native Americans by bloodline, this is not much different from the Nazis, who defined Jews by bloodline. I don't think it is wise for Wikipedia to decide "Who is a Jew" or "Who is a Native American." Sentience 21:32, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have moved the text here: /Ken Lawrence. If it is to be used, it needs be summarized. Viajero 21:10, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have moved the AIM text here: /AIM text. It is too long and rambling to be included as such, but there may be useful information which can be summarized. -- Viajero 21:15, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Viajero that all those texts are far too long. Keep in mind that this article should be a summary of this guy life, and should be meaningful for anyone to just understand who is is, what is principles are, what he did etc... Think of him dying tomorrow... What would be MOST important to remember and qualify him ?
Generally, we can notice that in most cases there is an ongoing controversy, an article on a topic grows till it becomes enormous and completely non-balanced. Then it takes months for the article to go back with a balance report of the events.
I suspect that when an article gets fat with ongoing even, then the whole mass of comments added on the spot should belong to a wikinews article. And only after the dust settles should the wikipedia article be cleaned up, and the information SUMMARIZED to become part of the encyclopedic article. Remember, encyclopedia does not necessarily mean ALL information about the guy should be there, nor only one majority point of view. It seems to me most ongoing articles on wikipedia are just suffering this. Additions of rants.
Has there been discussions yet on how to link wikinews articles to encyclopedic ones ?
Anthere 06:18, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Some articles have over-flabby lead sections, but this one is just anorexic. The first paragraph -- or three! -- clearly needs to allude to the substantiative issues addressed in the articles, especially: his ancestry, and the disputes thereof; and his writings and statements about 9/11. Those are, after all, why he has an article here -- not for the reasons in the heavily redacted current text. We need to establish some consensus as to structure here, not just indulge ourselves with large unilateral edits -- especially ones that duplicate large amounts of text for no evident reason. Alai 08:54, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I agree, however the table of contents lays it all out, so in this case a short lead might be best since there's so much POV here, but it's heading in the right direction...
In the talk pages and in some early versions there was better NPOV writing which might be restored, but, again, with such a hot topic, perhaps it's best to start with a sold NPOV paragraph and build from there.
The issue of the painting is potentially a serious one and one that should be watched and treated carefully in an NPOV way. If you have any doubt about that just look into copyright law and cases. This is not the same as bringing up things like a late payment on a phone bill or if someone drinks milk directly from the carton. Calicocat 17:16, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
How much dirt could be dug up on you if the full force of the right was out to get you? Whats dangerous here is that Ward Churchill is just a kicking off point as Newt Gingrich has said -- Ward Churchill is the first in what will be a purge of academia. As an article in counterpunch.org said, the right wants America´s universities to sound exactly like Fox News.
When did WC ever claim to represent all Indian tribes? What has his point on "little eichmanns" have anything to do with his heritage? Has he relied on his supposed native american roots to make this point? I think his racial-cultural heritage is a red herring, thrown up by partisan interests to attack him rather than deal with his thesis directly. And what methodology does AIM use to determine or deny native american heritage? Why is much credence placed on their seemingly arbitrary assertions? -- Argon 02:32, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I feel the same way as Scott, but I am not an Indian so perhaps I do not understand. But it seems to me if someone is publicly advancing the Indian movement and Ward was doing as party of the Colorado Indian Movement why are you so opposed to him. Is he harming the cause? I would like to understand your views on that. I believe one of the real tragedies of the Ward Churchill case is how vulnerable he is to attack because the people who should be supporting him are too busy infighting. If Churchill is fired it will be a blow to Ethnic Studies at all universities, a field which is not thought of highly by the people trying to get him removed. -- Wilbertoki 04:54, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
If I might chime in on the artwork... Since that's originally what this section was about, for all of five lines. There was some reverting and re-editting between "copyright infringement" and "plagiarism". Now, I gotta say that if it was my art being photoshopped or traced the heck out of it, (or the person grading work submitted with that degree of duplication), I'd be using the latter term (or both, for good measure). However, this isn't about my judgement, so if we say the P-word, can we make sure it's sourced? (Likewise, if we want to start talking about him being hounded by right-wing attack dogs -- sure, if a notable source had said something like this, but opining it ourselves here is original research or worse...) Alai 08:27, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Calicocat, I restored some of the changes you did to the intro and the first section partly to bring them in line with the way we customarily organize biographical articles.
First, and this goes for all articles, the intro should be one paragraph of three to five sentences which sum up all the noteworthy facts about the subject so the reader can decide whether to continue. Normally, in the case of bios, this does not include place of birth or place of death, since that is usually not signifcant (assassinations, etc., excepted). It is also important to mention nationality, since this is international reference work.
Second, the "Early years" section which I restored is usually called "Life" on other biographical pages (or indeed "Early years" if the material warrants). Here, I am using "Early years" because that is all we know at the moment. We do not know what he did between leaving the army in 1969 and getting appointed to UC, the date of which we are likewise ignorant. This section needs to be fleshed out and turned into "Life".
I urge you to look at other biographical articles, like Henry Kissinger, Margaret Sanger, or Louis Armstrong to get a sense of how bios are built up. They tend to be endless variations on the structure: Life, Work, Legacy/Controversy
HTH, -- Viajero 17:02, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for the information, but did this really warrant a section on the talk page? I'll take this under advisement. Calicocat 20:02, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Keetoowah, I am sorry about the "stooping low" thing. First off, I certainly did not mean you. I was thinking of right-wing pundits like that jive-ass turkey O'Reilly on Fox. I have only the highest regard for you, and I'd like to see your views on Churchill's race credentials fairly represented in the Ward Churchill argument.
Viajero cut them into a subarticle, but I'm assuming that's only temporary. He made the suggestion that the info there be summarized and re-incorporated into the main article.
You are new here, and I think we should all be a bit more welcoming. :-) -- Uncle Ed (talk) 17:29, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)
It seems the right-wing and Indian attack dogs can't be honest about creating an NPOV Wikipedia article on Professor Churchill. The double standards are appalling and relentless which is, I think, part of the whole "big lie" propaganda effort of which this article is but a part. As someone else mentioned, this issue itself should be reflected in this entry, but it seems likely that such an effort would render an endless stream of postings designed to defeat honest scholarship and destroy creation of sound, NPOV, fact-based entry.
The relentless effort to frame Churchill continues and I think the substance of the effort is to make Churchill a symbol for use by right-wing intellectual terrorists and fascists -- that is the true intent here, to create a symbol, an easy shorthand so that anyone can be written off as a "Ward Churchill." The utter lack of sincerity both of the right-wing and Indians are two pillars of this effort, their lies and negative framing standing as tall on the landscape as did once World Trade Center. You should be ashamed of yourselves for this.
I've learned a lot about wikipedia from attempting to work collaboratively on this entry with hope that it would turn into an informative article of honest, sound scholarship, but that seems impossible since the propagandists, the anti-Churhillists just won't allow it. Congratulations on helping to destroy Wikipedia. I've had enough of suffering fools for now. Go on dogs, savage the entry, in doing so you expose yourself for the hate-mongering, anti-intellectuals you are. I'll continue to watch the page as you bask in what will surly end up being a Pyrrhic victory for you.
I have restored the following information which was removed by an anonymous editor:
It is not unusual that Americans who have some Native American blood, but whose families live within the mainstream community, know their heritage from family tradition, but encounter difficulty proving it to the satisfaction of administrators of affirmative action programs [3].
It was removed without comment or discussion. This is inappropriate. When I googled this topic I found a number of links discussing this problem. Fred Bauder 15:09, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)
It is not appropriate to remove material which is well referenced from Wikipedia articles such at this material you removed without comment from the article on Ward Churchill Fred Bauder 15:03, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)
It is not unusual that Americans who have some Native American blood, but whose families live within the mainstream community, know their heritage from family tradition, but encounter difficulty proving it to the satisfaction of administrators of affirmative action programs [5].
If you find some problem with material such as this which is referenced please bring it up on the talk page of the article and mention the reason you removed it in your edit summary. Fred Bauder 15:03, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)
Interesting comment about "constant vilgilence." With things so polarzied and controversial about this issue, there is a legitmate reason the article's neutrality is disputed. Sorry about not following the correct protocol--but here's the problem with that particular link--it is not on point to Ward Churchill. It is a general comment that people who have Native American blood sometimes have difficulty proving it. A valid point, but unless there is some connection directly to Ward Churchill on why he has similar difficulty in proving his Native American heritage, then it is a hidden editorial response to the controversy by Wikipedia. Has Ward Churchill ever claimed that he had difficulty proving his Native American geneology? I have not heard Ward Churchill raise the same issues in the affirmative action link (if I am mistaken, then that is the proper link that should be made). There is a difference between linking to a legitimate editorial either pro or con on Ward Churchill (which is perfectly valid and welcomed) vs. plugging in editorial commentary indirectly as that link did.
I'll think about what you are saying, but another procedural matter is to sign your writing on the talk page. Use ~~~~. Fred Bauder 19:10, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)
Calicocat, virtually every biography of a Jewish person identifies that they are Jewish in the intro. This is not POV. Moreover in the case of Churchill, his ethnicity is highly topical, since it is also a matter of controversy. Also, in every bio, we identify the individual's nationality. Perhaps you could familiarize yourself with other Wikipedia articles before inisisting so relentlessly what is right and wrong. Viajero 20:48, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Your insistence on putting a remark about his ethnic background in the first sentence is obviously POV and pedantic references to the wiki style manuals are just subterfuge to help you sustain your obvious POV intent to run not an article, but hatchet job on Churchill. Calicocat 21:43, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This language is much more NPOV, accurate, subsantiated by factsand it includes your pet issue of ethnicity.
Ward Churchill, an American academic, is a tenured professor of ethnic studies at University of Colorado at Boulder and co-chairman of the American Indian Movement of Colorado (Colorado AIM). In some of his published work he characterizes the United States as an imperialist power with a history of genocide. Professor Churchill's specialization has centered on Native American issues, but he has also written on subjects such as the FBI and police states. In 2005, Churchill became the subject of intense right-wing propaganda campaign and debate in the United States because of an essay he wrote in 2001 about September 11, 2001 attacks.
Churchill is a Viet Nam war veteran and is of mixed White and Native American ethnicity. Calicocat 21:48, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Per wikipedia style manual on a Biography entry.
Opening paragraph The opening paragraph should give:
1. Name(s) and title(s), if any (see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)) 2. Dates of birth and death, if known (see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Dates of birth and death) 3. Nationality
Not Ethnicity -- over and over it's been pointed out that Churchill is American, that's his nationality, his ethnicity is simply not relevant to the lead and especially not as the first sentence. This false notion of yours might be best addressed by reading the Style Manual yourself. Your insistance on including it over and over is, I fear, but only a reflection of your and others particular obsession with this rather small aspect of this article and of Churchill in general. The harping on it is just another example of the attempt to use this piece not as a good and interesting wikipeida entry but for a particular POV slash and burn of Churchill. Calicocat 22:44, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
4. What they did 5. Why they are significant
To All: Continual POV reversion of this page represent an effort not to create an valid, useful, NPOV entry, but to have this article be nothing more than an attack page on Professor Churchill designed to do nothing more than support the particular political and propaganda agenda of those clearly biased against Churchill. I have had reasonable language reverted countless times and almost gave up on the article, but after thinking about it further decided that the article deserved to be made as NPOV and accurate as possible.
It's better than where it started, but it has now turning into a petty reversion contest and this serves neither the letter or spirit of the Style Manual or Policy of Wikipedia. Any voices of rationality and reason on this would be most welcome, but I fear nothing short of mediation or perhaps stronger measures are going to render impossible creation of a fair and useful entry.
The person most responsbile for the irrational behavior in this is user Viajero http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Viajero, who, oddly, on his user page claims to be one against such practices himself, which based on my experience with this user seem utterly hypocritical. He seems rather good at playing the liar's paradox game and intent on foisting his POV here.
Calicocat 05:42, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Now, please hold on Calicocat. First of all, please stop being too aggressive and critical of other povs. Viajero and others have been talking to you in a very fair tone of voice, and it would help that you do just the same.
Now, apart from details in the rest of your last revert, I understand the main part of your conflict is about whether the first sentence should mention or not mention the ethnic origin of Ward or not.
Tell me if I understand well or not, but it seems you think this mention should not be there, as not being relevant.
On the contrary, Viajery considers that it is bringing important information.
What I will notice is that in the rest of the introduction, several points are mentionned, which are in relation with ethnicity, in particular the fact he is a professor in ethnic studies, co-chairman of the American Indian Movement of Colorado, and that he is very vocal on ethnic discussions.
Hence, definitly a man who has turned his life toward defense of certain ethnies.
I think it is then relevant to mention his own origins, whether controversial or not controversial, because it helps to place a person. Me being a french, I can absolutely say I have never heard of that guy in my life, and even less of the controversies surrounding him. What I know, as a pure reader discovering the guy is that to understand the guy, I feel more informed to know of his origins before reading what he does, rather than after. I approach the information differently, though I might agree that it might twist my understanding a little. Still, sorry, I feel that we first need information which help us to try to understand why a person act in a certain way rather than in another. So, at least, to my opinion, it seems it is more relevant to know the ethnie of the man than not. Similarly, I would feel I am lacking information if you were not giving me the nationality of the person. Finally, an ethnicity is not a pov, it is just a statement in relation of someone origin. It is no more pov than saying someone is young, old, a woman or a man.
If it is a problem to cite it in the first sentence, what about twisting the paragraph to indicate his ethnie at the top, but possibly not exactly in the first line of the text ?
I would recommand avoid the word propaganda, which is quite heavily loaded generally.
I wish that you find a solution rather than reverting each other, which could lead you to be blocked.
Anthere 06:07, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Student demonstrations and statements pro and con seem evenly divided. this issue could be fixed by citing a source perhaps ? Anthere
Calicocat, I find it difficult to see the argument that Viajero's edit (and reverts) are POV, and yours are a model of NPOV. This article was one almighty mess, between horribly editted POV either way, until he recently cleaned it up, and he is, for all my money, to be nothing but commended for it. There's been significant discussion of WC's ethnicity in the news media, it seems to me, so the argument that this doesn't belong in the article is absurd. And given that it is in the article. what possible justification is there for not having it in the lead? Now, if you feel that the reason for the attention to his ethnicity is because of a right-wing hatchet job, and can reference that with respect to notable third-party commentators, go for it. A lead section that characterised him as a mild-mannered workaday professor and vet, which you seem to insist on working your way back to, is completely inappropriate as it misrepresents a) the article, and b) the reason for his notability in the first place. Alai 06:21, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I've edited the intro to try and include the controversy, as it's important information - at least at present-, but without putting over any particular point of view. I hope this will help settle the dispute ongoing, and we can get this article looking great. Yours with WikiLove, nsh 18:38, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)
I've reviewed this article at User:Calicocat's request and don't see that it's all that strongly NPOV at this point. I think it could do with more discussion of the purported right-wing "hatchet job" against him (if such can be done in a neutral way). The only section I felt pushed the NPOV envelope too far was the seemingly irrelevant comment about proving ethnicity to affirmative action departments. This smacks of sniping at (or about) political correctness and affirmative action, topics which are otherwise not discussed in any significant way in this article. If someone can actually tie this content back to the rest of the article, then perhaps it belongs. As it stood, it had no place in the article, and so I removed it. Kelly Martin 02:15, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)
As this article has developed it has become increasingly clear that what we have here is not and should not be classified as a " Biography" of Professor Churchill. As was suggested to me, I've looked at many Biographical articles on Wikipedia and the entry on Biography itself and I just don't see how this article falls into that category.
True, this article, as it stands, contains some biographic information about Professor Churchill but the substantive portion, and its primary foci, center on the recent controversy over a single essay he wrote and the questions and controversies that have arisen subsequently, namely -- his ethnicity, academic freedom, freedom of speech and perhaps what might be characterized as media manipulation by Bill O'Reilly. Given the huge volume of Professor Churchill's work, this one issue, the single essay, seems a completely unsound and, I think, unfair basis for classification of the article as an authoritative biography, especially when contrasted with standards evident in other Wikipedia biographic entries, e.g., Igor Stravinsky, Mickey Mantle, Benjamin Franklin.
However, -- and I don't know how this works being still rather newbie at all this -- I think it could be an excellent candidate for an "in the news section" that I see posted on the front section of the English Wikipedia.
As always, comments and assistance are most appreciated. Calicocat 18:32, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I'll admit I never heard of him and would be quite happy had that pleasant state of affairs continued. Fred Bauder 15:36, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)
== User Keetoowah: please justify deletion ==
Could you please justify your removal earlier today of a long section on Churchill's books?
[6]
If you don't consider Churchill a "scholar" that is your opinion. There is no reason why this article should not review his written work. --
Viajero 17:06, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I do not much care for Calicocat's proposed introductory section. I've only read a few thousand Wikipedia articles, but I think that as long as this article is titled Ward Churchill it should focus on Ward Churchill and not on some other topic, no matter how related. If Calicocat wishes this article not to focus so much on the controversy surrounding some of Churchill's recent writings, he should expand the other sections of this biographical article to discuss them as well. In other words, cure the defect, rather than entrenching it. I also prefer Viajero's rendition of what is essentially the same facts, and believe that it is more NPOV than Calicocat's.
I do not wish to see a revert war get started over this issue. It's quite obvious from reading the talk page and edit notes that emotions are running high about this article. I would suggest that the more engaged parties should step back for a bit. Kelly Martin 01:49, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)
Calicocat wrote:
The analogy is lame. The controversy around The Rite of Spring happened more than ninety years ago. Not many people care about it these days. That the article on Stravinsky says nothing about the controversy is nonetheless a shortcoming (the Rite article does at least mention it). I have read comments by critics at the time and it would be most appropriate to include a sampling of them, and I would be happy to do so myself if I had the material at my fingertips. Alas, "high culture" is not well covered in Wikipedia. Among the Internet audience that it attracts, potential editors are more interested in other things, like technology and current affairs. Ward Churchill is currently a major news item, and that's why the article looks the way it does. It is safe to say that over ninety years it will look much differently. -- Viajero 21:33, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have some sympathy with Keetoowah on the "unqualifying" of "part Native American descent". His ethnicity clear is controversial, especially as regards tribal membership qualification, claims thereof, degree of Indianness, etc. But is there doubt about him having any NA blood? (One of the links in the article seemed to be implying as much.) If there is such doubt, the statement ought to be qualified in some way. In any case, I'd favour some allusion to the general controversy, given that it's so prominent in the article. (As it stands, one can imagine a casual reader doing a bit of a double-take when they reach the "Ethnicity" section.) Alai 03:39, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yes, there is doubt that he has any Indian blood at all. It is even possible for him to not know it himself as White people were frequently adopted into tribes, especially in the Northeast. Those people I would count Native American but some would not. Fred Bauder 15:24, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)
I honestly don't see what this section's adding that's on topic. This isn't supposed to be an essay, but an encyclopaedia article, on matters specifically relating to Ward Churchill. Non-specific musings on the First Amendment and academic freedom would be better at those articles. Alai 18:20, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have reverted this afternoon's edits to this section by CalicoCat. The Hamilton College quote lacks specific relevance. I know it's from an article about Churchill, but the quote does not mention Churchill in any way, so the quote itself lacks relevance to this article. The petition I removed for bias: Churchill controls the American Indian Movement of Colorado; citing to that petition without mentioning that is dishonest and quite clearly not NPOV. Reverting was the easiest way to remove this inappropriate content and repair the grammar errors and stylistic issues introduced by CalicoCat's edits. Kelly Martin 02:01, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)
I just stumbled on this page, having never seen it before, and was immediately struck by the negative tone of the opening sentence, which totally put me off of reading the article. To be of interest to someone like myself the article needs to offer a balanced biographical approach. The first thing I want to know about him is how does he define himself and how does he identify himself. This article appears to be mired in the problem of representation to the exclusion of a basic and credible biographical account of this man's life and work. The article also seems to confuse his credibility as an academic with his identity, in short turning the entry into a rant about identity politics. My suggestion: take the emphasis off of identity and put it back on the subject matter at hand. What has he written, what does he care about, and then include a section on who his critics are and how he has responded to them. Let readers draw their own conclusions about his identity and integrity. [[ Piezo 19:00, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)]]
There used to be subsections for the "Other controversies" section. They used to be "Academic fraud" and "Treason" and the like, which was totally biased and misleading because all of those things were allegations, not proven. So I put words in them to clearly indicate that they were accusations, allegations, etc., and this was removed completely with the explanation that we shouldn;t editorialize in the subheads... Excuse me, what? Putting "Treason" there is editorializing, clarifying that they are accusations is not, that's strictly being factual. I can only hope that this was a misstatement of what was intended. DreamGuy 19:30, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)
I am to understand it that's it's being argued that WP:MOS#Punctuation is to be completely ignored as "not policy", but WP:MOS#National_varieties_of_English is to be strictly adhered to in the case of all American topics -- including biographies, which people have objected to being treated as country-specific topics per se -- despite that fact that it says nothing at all about punctuation? I'm going to change this back; please explain your rationale further, anyone that's unhappy with this. Alai 22:46, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)