![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I reverted the recent anon changes since they were very POV, and read in essay style. —Morven 06:04, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
War profiteer is by nature a pejorative term. Please by all means help me improve my work-edit the heck out of it, but leave in the facts.
I want to know if employees of these companies should be called War Profiteers also; It's sort of a gray area in my mind and a good discussion may clear it up. I'm talking about the individual guys that perform regular jobs such as truck driving, cleaning, food service, administration, etc. etc. for these companies such as KBR, Bechtel, Sandi Group, First Kuwaiti, and even smaller ones such as IAP, GBG, & Fluor Daniels. To my knowledge, the amount of work which the US Government has contracted out in Iraq is unprecedented in American history, and needs a closer look. Pros: They are making grossly inflated salries, anywhere from $5,000 to $15,000 per month, to perform menial work. They are supporting the US military during wartime in a warzone, which is why they get paid high salaries; danger pay. Cons: $5,000 to $15,000 per month is hardly getting rich... If they are working for a fiscal year they move up into the lower middle class bracket. The work they do hardly falls into the particulars of the shady business that typically defines war profiteering.
What category do they fall into?
Can a whole society be built on a war effort so that everyone becomes a war profiteer? I am thinking of Kuwait. The whole economy has prospered because of the Iraq war making it hard to distinguish between who is profiteering and who is not.
Another thing that needs clarification is the notion of profit. Is this a monetary based term or is prestige also a form of profit? Am I a war profiteer if I gain prestige from the war through my work? It would be good to leave open the question, for example, of whether journalists can sometimes find themselves profiteering from a war.
Samihermez 16:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
profiteering is different from profiting, however, some argue that anyone who profits from war is profiteering, that is gaining money unethically. Of course it is never looked at whether or not profit margins change do to war. That is, ford made money making tanks, would they have made more money making cars? anyway, in modern usage, when it is applied to haliburton, the accusation is in part that they played a role in causing the war. anyway profiteering war or otherwise is not a clear term. 67.176.160.47 ( talk) 04:11, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
can someone please mention, and expand on the role of the world bank and imf and how they benefit from war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.47.179 ( talk) 17:55, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
I just wanted to explain why I deleted the introductory sentence of this section, which claimed that "unreasonable" profits during wartime is widely considered unethical and deeply unpopular. First of all the "unreasonable" fails to accurately incorporate the definition at the top of the article, and feels very POV. Secondly, it seems to me that this unsourced claim is mostly untrue. My sense is that people in the west are mostly unaware of/ignoring the enormous profits that big corporations make from war. The corporations making the most profit from war are either big name corporations which are widely thought of quite neutrally, like Boeing and General Dynamics, or else they are corporations most people have never heard of, like L3 communications and United Technologies. Benjaminady ( talk) 13:50, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
War profiteering. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 03:20, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
Hello Wikipedians, I would like to add a section on the Military-Industrial complex. This phrase was coined by President Dwight Eisenhower in his 1961 Farewell Address. This alliance between military leaders and arms producing manufacturers have a shared interest in going to war and maintaining an aggressive foreign policy. Eisenhower warned the American people to be vigilant of this complex.
Bibliography:
http://www.militaryindustrialcomplex.com/what-is-the-military-industrial-complex.asp
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/eisenhower-warns-of-military-industrial-complex
http://www.panarchy.org/statism/military.complex.html
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/01/the-tyranny-of-defense-inc/308342/
https://books.google.com/books/about/Unwarranted_Influence.html?id=rxZ8BPomTlMC
http://classroom.synonym.com/lockheed-martin-war-iraq-10254.html Shainamarco ( talk) 22:02, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Hello, I like what you have. Notwithstanding, hopefully you could elaborate on how the two greatest wars since the Eisenhower administration, Vietnam and Iraq --and, by the metric, also the two greatest American fiascos in recent times-- contributed to the military-industrial complex's proliferation. I think this will probably give you a good amount of things to add to your article. Also, as far as business interest go, you can mention how there are some conspiracy theories that say President Johnson's involvement and escalation of the Vietnam War was due to the fact that his wife, Lady Bird Johnson, was born in one of the most prominent families that dealt in the military-industrial complex. All in all, my point is this: if you have a boat, you will want a body of water where to play with it. The same is said about the military-industrial complex and wars. Agarcia101 ( talk) 02:42, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Found a few more references that could help in the expansion of this article, including:
Feel like most of these will be helpful.
Anapandrade (
talk)
I too found a few more sources on the subject.
[7] Hannaheaton ( talk) 05:42, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
References
{{
cite journal}}
: |page=
has extra text (
help)
I think there is a lot to be said here about companies such as Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon, or many of the companies actually profiting off of combat manufacturing. This would be an interesting section to read about as a reader, seeing how there has been immense backlash against these companies in the form of rallies or movements against the profiteering of war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tysauer ( talk • contribs) 08:53, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Hello all there are alot of claims in this article that do not have sources connected with them so I will be finding sources from peer reviewed articles or editing sections that I cannot find claims for. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Npsanchez ( talk • contribs) 16:54, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on War profiteering. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:01, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
My deletion of two subsection of history ("Industrial Revolution” and "Military-Industrial Complex") has been contested. Lets examine both sections as currently there is nothing to tie them to the topic "War profiteering” nor are they adequately sourced. Lets examine the two sections:
Industrial Revolution: The first Paragraph is a loose summary of interchangeable parts, it doesn't mention war profiteering nor does its source (the source is not a WP:RS). The second Paragraph is a continuation of the interchangeable parts discussion that doesnt mention war profiteering (again neither do its sources).
Military-Industrial Complex: The first Paragraph is completely lacking in citation, as it stands its completely unsupported. The second Paragraph doesnt mention war profiteering but talks about a possibly related story, neither of the sources mention war profiteering.
I ask on what grounds the inclusion of these two sections as they currently stand doesnt violate WP:SYNTH given as not a single one of the sources as much as mentions war profiteering. @ Concus Cretus: would you please elaborate on your edit summary “Each of these statements has a single source, so they can't fall under WP:SYNTH”? Horse Eye Jack ( talk) 05:32, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
So, this is rather a complex bit. The portions about Eli Whitney and the like are okay. I'd probably avoid citing the History Channel (I would certainly find suspect anyone who produced steaming piles of bullshit like
Ancient Aliens), but the rest of the sourcing for that is fine. On the other hand, the next paragraph is rather junk. It contains entirely unreferenced statements like:
The Iron Triangle comes into play here due to war profiting industries who make financial contributions to elected officials, who then distribute taxpayer money towards the military budget, which is spent at the advantage of arms merchants. The military-industrial complex allows for arms-producing corporations to continue to accumulate significant profit.
(that absolutely requires a highly reliable reference saying exactly that, otherwise it's OR or SYNTH), and then the next paragraph is "sourced" to the Huffington Post, which is a rather suspect source. That section would indeed need better sourcing prior to inclusion. Check scholarly sources; I am quite certain that plenty of material has been written about this subject in sources far superior to History Channel or HuffPost. So, the current referencing is subpar, but I would suspect it could be improved. Make the effort to actually do that.
Seraphimblade
Talk to me
22:16, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
I motion to move this to the Wiktionary, as it is a definition, not an encyclopedia entry. Lypheklub 06:48, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)
i understand that the term is a loaded one, but i don't think that should prevent us from listing actual war profiteers. i think we can be earnest, truthful and literal. carlyle group, halliburton, bae, all defense contractors that actively push for war.
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Npsanchez,
Shainamarco,
Anapandrade,
Fparra247,
Hannaheaton. Peer reviewers:
Agarcia101,
Kmbatt,
NPSHamilton,
Partguypartshark,
Colleen1596,
Tysauer,
Sarias19.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 12:39, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I reverted the recent anon changes since they were very POV, and read in essay style. —Morven 06:04, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
War profiteer is by nature a pejorative term. Please by all means help me improve my work-edit the heck out of it, but leave in the facts.
I want to know if employees of these companies should be called War Profiteers also; It's sort of a gray area in my mind and a good discussion may clear it up. I'm talking about the individual guys that perform regular jobs such as truck driving, cleaning, food service, administration, etc. etc. for these companies such as KBR, Bechtel, Sandi Group, First Kuwaiti, and even smaller ones such as IAP, GBG, & Fluor Daniels. To my knowledge, the amount of work which the US Government has contracted out in Iraq is unprecedented in American history, and needs a closer look. Pros: They are making grossly inflated salries, anywhere from $5,000 to $15,000 per month, to perform menial work. They are supporting the US military during wartime in a warzone, which is why they get paid high salaries; danger pay. Cons: $5,000 to $15,000 per month is hardly getting rich... If they are working for a fiscal year they move up into the lower middle class bracket. The work they do hardly falls into the particulars of the shady business that typically defines war profiteering.
What category do they fall into?
Can a whole society be built on a war effort so that everyone becomes a war profiteer? I am thinking of Kuwait. The whole economy has prospered because of the Iraq war making it hard to distinguish between who is profiteering and who is not.
Another thing that needs clarification is the notion of profit. Is this a monetary based term or is prestige also a form of profit? Am I a war profiteer if I gain prestige from the war through my work? It would be good to leave open the question, for example, of whether journalists can sometimes find themselves profiteering from a war.
Samihermez 16:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
profiteering is different from profiting, however, some argue that anyone who profits from war is profiteering, that is gaining money unethically. Of course it is never looked at whether or not profit margins change do to war. That is, ford made money making tanks, would they have made more money making cars? anyway, in modern usage, when it is applied to haliburton, the accusation is in part that they played a role in causing the war. anyway profiteering war or otherwise is not a clear term. 67.176.160.47 ( talk) 04:11, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
can someone please mention, and expand on the role of the world bank and imf and how they benefit from war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.47.179 ( talk) 17:55, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
I just wanted to explain why I deleted the introductory sentence of this section, which claimed that "unreasonable" profits during wartime is widely considered unethical and deeply unpopular. First of all the "unreasonable" fails to accurately incorporate the definition at the top of the article, and feels very POV. Secondly, it seems to me that this unsourced claim is mostly untrue. My sense is that people in the west are mostly unaware of/ignoring the enormous profits that big corporations make from war. The corporations making the most profit from war are either big name corporations which are widely thought of quite neutrally, like Boeing and General Dynamics, or else they are corporations most people have never heard of, like L3 communications and United Technologies. Benjaminady ( talk) 13:50, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
War profiteering. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 03:20, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
Hello Wikipedians, I would like to add a section on the Military-Industrial complex. This phrase was coined by President Dwight Eisenhower in his 1961 Farewell Address. This alliance between military leaders and arms producing manufacturers have a shared interest in going to war and maintaining an aggressive foreign policy. Eisenhower warned the American people to be vigilant of this complex.
Bibliography:
http://www.militaryindustrialcomplex.com/what-is-the-military-industrial-complex.asp
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/eisenhower-warns-of-military-industrial-complex
http://www.panarchy.org/statism/military.complex.html
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/01/the-tyranny-of-defense-inc/308342/
https://books.google.com/books/about/Unwarranted_Influence.html?id=rxZ8BPomTlMC
http://classroom.synonym.com/lockheed-martin-war-iraq-10254.html Shainamarco ( talk) 22:02, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Hello, I like what you have. Notwithstanding, hopefully you could elaborate on how the two greatest wars since the Eisenhower administration, Vietnam and Iraq --and, by the metric, also the two greatest American fiascos in recent times-- contributed to the military-industrial complex's proliferation. I think this will probably give you a good amount of things to add to your article. Also, as far as business interest go, you can mention how there are some conspiracy theories that say President Johnson's involvement and escalation of the Vietnam War was due to the fact that his wife, Lady Bird Johnson, was born in one of the most prominent families that dealt in the military-industrial complex. All in all, my point is this: if you have a boat, you will want a body of water where to play with it. The same is said about the military-industrial complex and wars. Agarcia101 ( talk) 02:42, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Found a few more references that could help in the expansion of this article, including:
Feel like most of these will be helpful.
Anapandrade (
talk)
I too found a few more sources on the subject.
[7] Hannaheaton ( talk) 05:42, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
References
{{
cite journal}}
: |page=
has extra text (
help)
I think there is a lot to be said here about companies such as Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon, or many of the companies actually profiting off of combat manufacturing. This would be an interesting section to read about as a reader, seeing how there has been immense backlash against these companies in the form of rallies or movements against the profiteering of war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tysauer ( talk • contribs) 08:53, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Hello all there are alot of claims in this article that do not have sources connected with them so I will be finding sources from peer reviewed articles or editing sections that I cannot find claims for. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Npsanchez ( talk • contribs) 16:54, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on War profiteering. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:01, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
My deletion of two subsection of history ("Industrial Revolution” and "Military-Industrial Complex") has been contested. Lets examine both sections as currently there is nothing to tie them to the topic "War profiteering” nor are they adequately sourced. Lets examine the two sections:
Industrial Revolution: The first Paragraph is a loose summary of interchangeable parts, it doesn't mention war profiteering nor does its source (the source is not a WP:RS). The second Paragraph is a continuation of the interchangeable parts discussion that doesnt mention war profiteering (again neither do its sources).
Military-Industrial Complex: The first Paragraph is completely lacking in citation, as it stands its completely unsupported. The second Paragraph doesnt mention war profiteering but talks about a possibly related story, neither of the sources mention war profiteering.
I ask on what grounds the inclusion of these two sections as they currently stand doesnt violate WP:SYNTH given as not a single one of the sources as much as mentions war profiteering. @ Concus Cretus: would you please elaborate on your edit summary “Each of these statements has a single source, so they can't fall under WP:SYNTH”? Horse Eye Jack ( talk) 05:32, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
So, this is rather a complex bit. The portions about Eli Whitney and the like are okay. I'd probably avoid citing the History Channel (I would certainly find suspect anyone who produced steaming piles of bullshit like
Ancient Aliens), but the rest of the sourcing for that is fine. On the other hand, the next paragraph is rather junk. It contains entirely unreferenced statements like:
The Iron Triangle comes into play here due to war profiting industries who make financial contributions to elected officials, who then distribute taxpayer money towards the military budget, which is spent at the advantage of arms merchants. The military-industrial complex allows for arms-producing corporations to continue to accumulate significant profit.
(that absolutely requires a highly reliable reference saying exactly that, otherwise it's OR or SYNTH), and then the next paragraph is "sourced" to the Huffington Post, which is a rather suspect source. That section would indeed need better sourcing prior to inclusion. Check scholarly sources; I am quite certain that plenty of material has been written about this subject in sources far superior to History Channel or HuffPost. So, the current referencing is subpar, but I would suspect it could be improved. Make the effort to actually do that.
Seraphimblade
Talk to me
22:16, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
I motion to move this to the Wiktionary, as it is a definition, not an encyclopedia entry. Lypheklub 06:48, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)
i understand that the term is a loaded one, but i don't think that should prevent us from listing actual war profiteers. i think we can be earnest, truthful and literal. carlyle group, halliburton, bae, all defense contractors that actively push for war.
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Npsanchez,
Shainamarco,
Anapandrade,
Fparra247,
Hannaheaton. Peer reviewers:
Agarcia101,
Kmbatt,
NPSHamilton,
Partguypartshark,
Colleen1596,
Tysauer,
Sarias19.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 12:39, 17 January 2022 (UTC)