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Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 15 |
The overview section starts off a little weakly with "The war started badly for the Americans as their attempts to invade Canada were repeatedly repulsed..." As someone with little knowledge of the war, I was hoping for more background, like *why* the Americans were invading, what built up to those events, and so on. Can anybody shed some light on this and add it to the article? Thanks. Maruchan 04:28, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Can something be done to stop the vandalism to this article? 'Decisive British victory' keeps being deleted by vandals from the section entitled 'Result'. This vandalism appears to be exclusively conducted by American contributors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.138.200 ( talk) 19:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I am afraid 'Status quo ante bellum' does NOT mean that no one won the war. Many wars end when an invading army is defeated and the original borders are restored. see for example the 'Falklands war' which also ended with 'Status quo ante bellum' which was a decisive defeat for Argentina. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.138.200 ( talk) 18:27, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Why did you cut and paste that instead of addressing my point? 'Status quo ante bellum does NOT mean that 'no one won' as was stated earlier. Furthermore, countless references have been cited to show that the aim of the American aggression was territorial expansion. The claim that the cause of the war was to 'stop impressment' is laughable. This is taught to American schoolboys to try and salvage some dignity from the debacle. The British army took up residence in the headquarters of the United Stated Marine Corps in Washington D.C. after they fled, then systematically destroyed symbols of the American nation(like the White House and other public buildings)until the Americans agreed to respect international borders. This agreement is the essence of the Treaty of Ghent.
With reference to another contributor, I am a little disturbed that they don't know how to spell 'definitely' I was assuming that I am dealing with adult contributors.
Erhhh No the British destroying the whitehouse does not make it a victory. The British repelling an ill planned invasion of Canada certainly does. Not quite sure why that is so hard for people to grasp....... Deathlibrarian 10:47, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Who won the war?
Did someone win the british-american war at all or won both?
Result: Treaty of Ghent and status quo ante bellum this means nothing to me.
My question is who won the fucking war that is important NOT that the Treaty of Ghent signed.
Who won? -- Lordbecket 14:18, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Yeah agrees. "The Treaty of Ghent" is not an answer to who won the war. As for who won the war, the American Wikipedians will tell you that no one won the war. The British Wikipedians will tell you that they won. I'm an Australian, and as far as I can see, the main issue is that the US tried to invade Canada, and were defeated, the war finishing with the British in Possession of Maine. The British won the war of 1812. Deathlibrarian 10:43, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Well to simplify.....From my Non US perspective. The US didn't stop impressment, didn't successfully invade Canada but did get land off a whole lot of Indians. I count that as 1 objective out of 3. The Brits defended the US and pushed the US back into their own country. I count that as 1 out of 1. So if you are basing it on achieving objectives, the US did not achieve the majority of theirs, and the Brits acheived all theirs. *Fundamentally, there is no "putting to bed of this". The Assumption that both sides won is an American Assumption, supported by American Wikipedians. Wikipedians from other countries will consistently turn up to this page, and contest. They always have (check the discussions) and they always will, until this page is re written to reflect this. 210.49.164.192 14:08, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Narson, Can't believe you are a Brit and you are calling this a stalemate???. In the war of 1812, a small amount of British/Canadian troops defeated the US invasion, kicked US Arse back across the border and then took possession of Maine. Credit where credit is due. Man, If I was British or Canadian I would be arguing like all hell to get this changed to reflect a British Victory. Deathlibrarian 02:28, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
"We snatched a draw from the jaws of victory." Only if you count Thames, Plattsburg, Fort McHenry, and New Orleans as British "victories". 65.28.247.16 01:41, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I believe that the Duke of Wellington made the point that the UK had won nothing to claim any concessions whatsoever from the US whereby the UK settled for standing Treaty of Ghent. It would seem that both the US and the UK believed that they had no futher claims at that point either. I would further note the the British Navy was at pains to make sure there was no impressment of American shipping during the hundred days. I believe the status of won loss is Status Quo Ante Bellum or draw for the Latin challenged. I am a child of the 70's where we would ask "What if they had a war and nobody came?" in many ways the War of 1812 was that war. The US could have put a up a large well trained well suppilied army and really just couldn't be bothered until the cake walk turned out to be a real fight. The UK could have started a serious blockade but again couldn't be bother until it had to consider the US Navy and the US privateers as a serious threat. Even then both countries were more than willing to call the whole thing off as a stupid waste of time. The worst thing about the war? The Battle of New Orleans. The best thing about the war? Both countries started treating each other as Nations instead of the younger/older siblings type of relationship that preceeded it. Tirronan 22:15, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
This is a fascinating case of American Mythos ignoring the facts and omitting some consistently too...this includes all the whitewashed "history books". I am a Canadian and think that the facts far outweigh any posturing. There are a number of reasons why almost zero Americans can accept or better yet investigate and discuss the facts of this war: 1)"Second War of Independence" myth is stronger than their belief Alexander Graham Bell was American. 2)Their national anthem got tied in with this war and how could it be one that they lost. 3)Myth that Vietnam was the first war America lost looms large. 4)Andrew Jackson's legend and myth was tied into the end of the war along with the Battle of New Orleans. Take a look at the following page and I challenge anyone to prove what is said here wrong. http://hometown.aol.com/ninety3rd/myths.html Beyond the records in the Library of Congress and Canadian National Library...there has been a large number of journals and letters of soldiers accounts that paint an even more complete picture, but even the unedited and unfiltered military account of the entire war for all battles clearly show that the combination of the British/Canadian Militia/Natives clearly repulsed and retaliated (not invaded) the American force very soundly by any military definition. So let's turn the question around...what level of historical evidence (not book/quote/link references) would it take to convince the American Wiki's that they actually lost the war and the Treaty may have had some benefits, but they had lost by any typical definition of warfare and that the British/Canada did not really give anything up that they weren't willing to negotiate anyways? I am asking for a specific level of proof besides bringing back the dead. If no Facts can change your mind then I commend your Truthiness/Wikiality and I will proclaim victory now. Otherwise...lets see if we can dig up the evidence before the bicentennial. -- Thehighlndr ( talk) 06:30, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
If this page was moved to American War of 1812 the the ugly first sentence could be cleaned up from
to
It would also allow for the removal of "This article is about the U.S. – U.K. war. ....". Anyone object to moving the page to "American War of 1812" and if so why? -- Philip Baird Shearer 13:24, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
These two sentences need cleanup:
1. 'The main cause of this however was down to the fact that the US Frigates heralded more guns and the picked crews recruited from the large group of unemployed US sailors than a regular British Fifth Rate Frigates with their crews rounded out by impressment and landsman making the match up uneven.[12]'
Problems:
-The Frigates didn't 'herald' more guns. They had more firepower. Ships don't make proclamations. -'match up' should be 'match-up' -'more' does not flow to 'than' very well
2. When two ships of almost equal strength did meet (USS Chesapeake and HMS Shannon) resulted in the HMS Shannon's victory (note that the captain of the Shannon practiced a relentless gun drill).
Problem:
-missing 'it' between 'did meet' and 'resulted' if the sentence stays as-is
This article has no references. A list of books about the War of 1812 is irrelevant. What is needed is the list of books which were used to write this article. BradMajors 17:49, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Let me be really clear here, looking at the history of this article there has been non stop editing and to date most of the inline citation was put in by yours truely and I have to go all the way back to August for that. If you put it down and you can't cite it IT IS OPINION. Just where did you all think you got the right to edit the heck out of an article without citation?????? Now how about we do what we are supposed to do and stop ignoring it to edit to a POV! Pop a book (there are about 90 of them in the thing called a library for free) and cite to source. I'm putting this on my watch list and from this point on uncited unsourced additions get reverted for exactly that reason. Sorry to be an ass about this but enough is enough this is supposed to be verifiable not the opinion express. Tirronan 20:01, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
{{
citation}}
: Empty citation (
help). From what I've read and researched, the numbers feel about right.
GABaker 03:31 UTC 15 November 2007.
I've applied to get semi protect status for awhile given the level of vandals we seem to attract. Tirronan 15:40, 8 November 2007 (UTC) semi-protection Constant unending IP address vandalism, trying to improved the article and its tough considering there will be 5 vandals a day on it. Tirronan 15:28, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Semi-protected for a period of 2 weeks. After 2 weeks the page will be automatically unprotected. --¤ The-G-Unit-฿oss ¤ 20:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Amusing to see the result left simply as a reference to the Treaty of Ghent/status quo ante bellum. To my knowledge this is the only article of its kind that has a problem naming the victor in a war which was so clearly one sided. Overly sensitive yanks? 132.185.240.121 ( talk) 13:27, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I thought I'd bring this here before I deleted the word but, it states the Americans decisively beat the British at New Orleans, but, history books I read indicate British reinforcements were coming up and they could have pressed the siege again but instead chose to withdraw after the defeat and went on to take a supposedly untakeable fort further east....it seems like a victory but not one that was wholly decisive. What is the general view? Is the word justified in remaining? Narson 17:47, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
That the battle came after the peace makes it a moot point, there are other words I would use but its unencyclopedic, stupidity, mass slaugter, idoitic way to use excellent troops, comes to mind, but decisive, no. The argument in favor would be that the amount of casualities and the fact that 3 Brit generals died there. However in my view to be decisive it would have had to effect the course of the war and as the war was over and the treaty signed (if not ratified) leaves me with a defeat period. Tirronan 18:00, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Causes of the war:
Ending the war:
Factors that kept the peace:
On a personal note its a damn shame we ever changed our attitude on that one but such is life. Tirronan 15:35, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Factors that kept the peace: From Ian V. Toll, Six Frigates, pages 458,459: The US Army had done poorly, on the whole, in several attempts to invade Canada, and the Canadians had shown that they would fight bravely to defend their country. But the British did not doubt that the thinly populated territory would be vlunerable in a third war. "we cannot keep Canada if the Americans declare war against us again" Admiral Sir David Milne to a correspondent in 1817.
Lord Wellington Ambassador to France November 3rd, 1814, being offered command to North America to Lord Caslereagh on the preceedings at Ghent in a letter dated November 9th:
I confess that I think you have no right, from the state of war, to demand any concession of terriroty from America... You have not been able to carry it into the enemy's territory, notwithstanding your military success and now undoubted military superiority, and have not even cleared your own territroy on the point of attack. you can not on any principle of equality in negotiation claim a cessation of territoy exceptin in exchange for other advantages which you have in your power... Then if this resoning be true, why stipulate for the uti possidetis? You can get no territory: indeed, the state of your military operations, however creditable, does not entitle you to demand any.
It was at this point the negoiators at Ghent were informed to drop Uti possidetis and accept peace as status quo ante bellum Ian V. Toll pg 441.
A view on the British side of the war at this time found the public getting war weary and greeted the news of the continuation of war taxs with, according to the Morning Chronicle, a sense of horror and indignation. Ian V. Toll, pg 439.
Headlines from the Naval Chronicle:
Shipping insurance had gone up 300% since the start of the war. (pg 439) The annual cost of the war was 10 million pounds a year (pg 428)
In bottling up the US Navy Frigates the harbors of the southern US were wide open for privateers who had a hayday. (pg 426)
If you think that sounds grim try this on the American side: The cost of a decent bottle of wine $25 (would have bought a pretty good horse) The American Merchant Marine had all but disappeared The US Tresury was exhausted Rhode Island was facing food shortages New England was close to open revolt (pg 429)
Note at this time the Congress of Vienna was in full swing with Austria, Prussia, and Russia, dueling over who controlled what with the UK siding mostly with Austria, looking for territorial aqquistions in North America looked horrible in that light. See the Hundred Days that I and a few others are rewriting for referrencing on that fiasco.
Your thoughts and opinions Gentlemen, I will be adding more on other points that I have made here. Tirronan ( talk) 03:18, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
There are just as many finds one the causes, I guess where I am heading with this is to expand the article to give the reader a more complete view of what was happening in a complex war where both sides were after different aims for completely logical reasons. Its why you have the long arguments about win/loss the more you try to pin it down the more it eludes you why neither side really wanted a war and why both went to war. For instance, war hawks beside, the US went to this war in absolute dread but you don't see that here. The more we can get into the article that reflect this the better service we do for our readers. Tirronan ( talk) 06:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Anyway I am looking for how to expand and improve this article to at least a GA standard. What I am asking for is imput on additional points that I am making and how best to incorporate them into the article. I am asking for your help. Lets make sure we are doing that instead of blogging. The reasons I have put down the referring here is so that we all all evaluate it and use it on the article. Tirronan ( talk) 16:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
I've started the rewrite but I can use help as I am a bit played out for the evening and need sleep. Can one of you take a look at the section under Native American issues and rework that? I think between the master article on the origins of the war and what I have left you here you have enough to do that while I sleep. Tirronan ( talk) 06:36, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Ok folks I have been working this up for awhile and the question needs to be is this going the way you all think it should? Tirronan ( talk) 04:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
The consensus is that this war was a British victory. Just read the discussion pages if you are in any doubt. Alternatively, if you think the result should read 'Status quo ante bellum' please explain why the Battle of New Orleans should not also be described in the same way.
The argument seems to be that there were no American territorial claims on the Canadian colonies (which is not true) so therefore their failed invasion of Canada cannot be described as a defeat. I have news for you, Britain had no territorial claim on New Orleans.
Please do not vandalise this article further by violating Wikipedia policy on Consensus.
Thank you.
'Bias Remover' 9th December 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.138.200 ( talk) 14:12, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
I have read ALL the previous discussion which is precisely why I pointed out that the consensus is that it was a British victory.
I notice though that you have not addressed my point. It is OK though I understand why and admire you for it.
Is there anyone else out there with fewer scruples, who is shameless enough to try and justify why one failed invasion is described as a defeat and another isn't? Don't mention the elephant in the living room though, that in the case of the 'War of 1812' the losers happened to be American.
'Bias Remover' 9th December 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.138.200 ( talk) 15:03, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Hmmmm, again you want me to respond to your point having twice failed to respond to my original question. It must be a cultural difference but in my country that would be called bad manners.
Answer my question, and I will answer yours.
'Manners Teacher' 9th December 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.138.200 ( talk) 16:29, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
There are no less than 6 archive pages with arguments to both sides. There are arguments on this page as well. The general consensus is that it was a draw unless you have overwhelming reputable and verifiable sources that can prove otherwise. Now either prove it or drop it, otherwise you are acting like WP:Troll Sorry to be this way but I have run across to many of them to be willing to be drawn into another yap fest about it. Oh and while you are about it get an account they are free and I won't respond to an IP address more than once. Tirronan ( talk) 03:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I'd say that the outcome of the War of 1812 was most like the Korean War myself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.32.244.191 ( talk) 09:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Wow! Tirronan seems angry, and also seems to have a penchant for telling other people what to do. Sadly though this is not matched by a desire to learn grammar. Tirronan, you mean 'too' not 'to'. Now, if there is anyone out there who has actually completed high school and wants to answer my original question I would be delighted to discuss their response.
'Bias Remover' 13th December 2007
Thank you for your input, Sadly it has not made it any clearer to me why one failed invasion is described as 'status quo ante bellum' and the other isn't.
'Bias Remover' 20th December 2007. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.138.200 ( talk) 13:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
What you have is a POV warrior on the page and has been at this for months and half the talk page is related to his trolling. Take a look at his contributions and make your own decisions however I promise you that the only thing this fellow is interested in is provoking anyone around and that is the primary payoff for the personality type. I think that we need to work on getting the IP addressed banned for vandalism and be done with it. However responding to this guy in any way, shape, fashion, or form, will just get more of the same. Let him rant as a lone voice and start marking his changes on the talk page when he does it as vandalism and he'll be gone soon enough. Tirronan ( talk) 17:49, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
LOL @ banning contributors IP addresses. I am thinking of printing this talk page off and using it as source material for a psychology thesis.
'Bias Remover' 20th December 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.138.200 ( talk) 14:58, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
While I have my own opinion of who won/lost the war of 1812 perhaps this might go some way to end the troll bits on the victory/defeat issue. Your thoughts please.
Who won the War of 1812?
This subject has suffered arguments from every side since the war ended. One of the issues with this war is that both sides saw this as a limited war with limited aims. The United Kingdom never envisioned the recapture of the United States of America. The United States never thought it could actually defeat the United Kingdom. The evaluation of what each side hoped to accomplish and what it actually did accomplish is the only measure of what is victory. As the Treaty of Ghent only reverted, any gains that either side made during the war and addressed not a single issue substantially there is nothing to be learned by referring to this treaty, therefore only the actions of the parties afterwards can lead to any understanding of what was won or lost by the War of 1812.
United States of America’s war goals
The United States of America’s main goals were to force the United Kingdom to:
United Kingdom’s war goals
The United Kingdom main goals were to force the United States of America to:
The goals of both nations were fairly well met even if they were settled by later negotiation or by silent agreement.
Regardless of implicit or silent agreement, both sides of the war had achieved their war goals in the main.
Tirronan ( talk) 00:47, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
You know during the talks at Ghent the deal over immpresment was never discussed and continued after the war of 1812. So that is another faliure for America.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 15 |
The overview section starts off a little weakly with "The war started badly for the Americans as their attempts to invade Canada were repeatedly repulsed..." As someone with little knowledge of the war, I was hoping for more background, like *why* the Americans were invading, what built up to those events, and so on. Can anybody shed some light on this and add it to the article? Thanks. Maruchan 04:28, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Can something be done to stop the vandalism to this article? 'Decisive British victory' keeps being deleted by vandals from the section entitled 'Result'. This vandalism appears to be exclusively conducted by American contributors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.138.200 ( talk) 19:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I am afraid 'Status quo ante bellum' does NOT mean that no one won the war. Many wars end when an invading army is defeated and the original borders are restored. see for example the 'Falklands war' which also ended with 'Status quo ante bellum' which was a decisive defeat for Argentina. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.138.200 ( talk) 18:27, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Why did you cut and paste that instead of addressing my point? 'Status quo ante bellum does NOT mean that 'no one won' as was stated earlier. Furthermore, countless references have been cited to show that the aim of the American aggression was territorial expansion. The claim that the cause of the war was to 'stop impressment' is laughable. This is taught to American schoolboys to try and salvage some dignity from the debacle. The British army took up residence in the headquarters of the United Stated Marine Corps in Washington D.C. after they fled, then systematically destroyed symbols of the American nation(like the White House and other public buildings)until the Americans agreed to respect international borders. This agreement is the essence of the Treaty of Ghent.
With reference to another contributor, I am a little disturbed that they don't know how to spell 'definitely' I was assuming that I am dealing with adult contributors.
Erhhh No the British destroying the whitehouse does not make it a victory. The British repelling an ill planned invasion of Canada certainly does. Not quite sure why that is so hard for people to grasp....... Deathlibrarian 10:47, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Who won the war?
Did someone win the british-american war at all or won both?
Result: Treaty of Ghent and status quo ante bellum this means nothing to me.
My question is who won the fucking war that is important NOT that the Treaty of Ghent signed.
Who won? -- Lordbecket 14:18, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Yeah agrees. "The Treaty of Ghent" is not an answer to who won the war. As for who won the war, the American Wikipedians will tell you that no one won the war. The British Wikipedians will tell you that they won. I'm an Australian, and as far as I can see, the main issue is that the US tried to invade Canada, and were defeated, the war finishing with the British in Possession of Maine. The British won the war of 1812. Deathlibrarian 10:43, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Well to simplify.....From my Non US perspective. The US didn't stop impressment, didn't successfully invade Canada but did get land off a whole lot of Indians. I count that as 1 objective out of 3. The Brits defended the US and pushed the US back into their own country. I count that as 1 out of 1. So if you are basing it on achieving objectives, the US did not achieve the majority of theirs, and the Brits acheived all theirs. *Fundamentally, there is no "putting to bed of this". The Assumption that both sides won is an American Assumption, supported by American Wikipedians. Wikipedians from other countries will consistently turn up to this page, and contest. They always have (check the discussions) and they always will, until this page is re written to reflect this. 210.49.164.192 14:08, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Narson, Can't believe you are a Brit and you are calling this a stalemate???. In the war of 1812, a small amount of British/Canadian troops defeated the US invasion, kicked US Arse back across the border and then took possession of Maine. Credit where credit is due. Man, If I was British or Canadian I would be arguing like all hell to get this changed to reflect a British Victory. Deathlibrarian 02:28, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
"We snatched a draw from the jaws of victory." Only if you count Thames, Plattsburg, Fort McHenry, and New Orleans as British "victories". 65.28.247.16 01:41, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I believe that the Duke of Wellington made the point that the UK had won nothing to claim any concessions whatsoever from the US whereby the UK settled for standing Treaty of Ghent. It would seem that both the US and the UK believed that they had no futher claims at that point either. I would further note the the British Navy was at pains to make sure there was no impressment of American shipping during the hundred days. I believe the status of won loss is Status Quo Ante Bellum or draw for the Latin challenged. I am a child of the 70's where we would ask "What if they had a war and nobody came?" in many ways the War of 1812 was that war. The US could have put a up a large well trained well suppilied army and really just couldn't be bothered until the cake walk turned out to be a real fight. The UK could have started a serious blockade but again couldn't be bother until it had to consider the US Navy and the US privateers as a serious threat. Even then both countries were more than willing to call the whole thing off as a stupid waste of time. The worst thing about the war? The Battle of New Orleans. The best thing about the war? Both countries started treating each other as Nations instead of the younger/older siblings type of relationship that preceeded it. Tirronan 22:15, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
This is a fascinating case of American Mythos ignoring the facts and omitting some consistently too...this includes all the whitewashed "history books". I am a Canadian and think that the facts far outweigh any posturing. There are a number of reasons why almost zero Americans can accept or better yet investigate and discuss the facts of this war: 1)"Second War of Independence" myth is stronger than their belief Alexander Graham Bell was American. 2)Their national anthem got tied in with this war and how could it be one that they lost. 3)Myth that Vietnam was the first war America lost looms large. 4)Andrew Jackson's legend and myth was tied into the end of the war along with the Battle of New Orleans. Take a look at the following page and I challenge anyone to prove what is said here wrong. http://hometown.aol.com/ninety3rd/myths.html Beyond the records in the Library of Congress and Canadian National Library...there has been a large number of journals and letters of soldiers accounts that paint an even more complete picture, but even the unedited and unfiltered military account of the entire war for all battles clearly show that the combination of the British/Canadian Militia/Natives clearly repulsed and retaliated (not invaded) the American force very soundly by any military definition. So let's turn the question around...what level of historical evidence (not book/quote/link references) would it take to convince the American Wiki's that they actually lost the war and the Treaty may have had some benefits, but they had lost by any typical definition of warfare and that the British/Canada did not really give anything up that they weren't willing to negotiate anyways? I am asking for a specific level of proof besides bringing back the dead. If no Facts can change your mind then I commend your Truthiness/Wikiality and I will proclaim victory now. Otherwise...lets see if we can dig up the evidence before the bicentennial. -- Thehighlndr ( talk) 06:30, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
If this page was moved to American War of 1812 the the ugly first sentence could be cleaned up from
to
It would also allow for the removal of "This article is about the U.S. – U.K. war. ....". Anyone object to moving the page to "American War of 1812" and if so why? -- Philip Baird Shearer 13:24, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
These two sentences need cleanup:
1. 'The main cause of this however was down to the fact that the US Frigates heralded more guns and the picked crews recruited from the large group of unemployed US sailors than a regular British Fifth Rate Frigates with their crews rounded out by impressment and landsman making the match up uneven.[12]'
Problems:
-The Frigates didn't 'herald' more guns. They had more firepower. Ships don't make proclamations. -'match up' should be 'match-up' -'more' does not flow to 'than' very well
2. When two ships of almost equal strength did meet (USS Chesapeake and HMS Shannon) resulted in the HMS Shannon's victory (note that the captain of the Shannon practiced a relentless gun drill).
Problem:
-missing 'it' between 'did meet' and 'resulted' if the sentence stays as-is
This article has no references. A list of books about the War of 1812 is irrelevant. What is needed is the list of books which were used to write this article. BradMajors 17:49, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Let me be really clear here, looking at the history of this article there has been non stop editing and to date most of the inline citation was put in by yours truely and I have to go all the way back to August for that. If you put it down and you can't cite it IT IS OPINION. Just where did you all think you got the right to edit the heck out of an article without citation?????? Now how about we do what we are supposed to do and stop ignoring it to edit to a POV! Pop a book (there are about 90 of them in the thing called a library for free) and cite to source. I'm putting this on my watch list and from this point on uncited unsourced additions get reverted for exactly that reason. Sorry to be an ass about this but enough is enough this is supposed to be verifiable not the opinion express. Tirronan 20:01, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
{{
citation}}
: Empty citation (
help). From what I've read and researched, the numbers feel about right.
GABaker 03:31 UTC 15 November 2007.
I've applied to get semi protect status for awhile given the level of vandals we seem to attract. Tirronan 15:40, 8 November 2007 (UTC) semi-protection Constant unending IP address vandalism, trying to improved the article and its tough considering there will be 5 vandals a day on it. Tirronan 15:28, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Semi-protected for a period of 2 weeks. After 2 weeks the page will be automatically unprotected. --¤ The-G-Unit-฿oss ¤ 20:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Amusing to see the result left simply as a reference to the Treaty of Ghent/status quo ante bellum. To my knowledge this is the only article of its kind that has a problem naming the victor in a war which was so clearly one sided. Overly sensitive yanks? 132.185.240.121 ( talk) 13:27, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I thought I'd bring this here before I deleted the word but, it states the Americans decisively beat the British at New Orleans, but, history books I read indicate British reinforcements were coming up and they could have pressed the siege again but instead chose to withdraw after the defeat and went on to take a supposedly untakeable fort further east....it seems like a victory but not one that was wholly decisive. What is the general view? Is the word justified in remaining? Narson 17:47, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
That the battle came after the peace makes it a moot point, there are other words I would use but its unencyclopedic, stupidity, mass slaugter, idoitic way to use excellent troops, comes to mind, but decisive, no. The argument in favor would be that the amount of casualities and the fact that 3 Brit generals died there. However in my view to be decisive it would have had to effect the course of the war and as the war was over and the treaty signed (if not ratified) leaves me with a defeat period. Tirronan 18:00, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Causes of the war:
Ending the war:
Factors that kept the peace:
On a personal note its a damn shame we ever changed our attitude on that one but such is life. Tirronan 15:35, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Factors that kept the peace: From Ian V. Toll, Six Frigates, pages 458,459: The US Army had done poorly, on the whole, in several attempts to invade Canada, and the Canadians had shown that they would fight bravely to defend their country. But the British did not doubt that the thinly populated territory would be vlunerable in a third war. "we cannot keep Canada if the Americans declare war against us again" Admiral Sir David Milne to a correspondent in 1817.
Lord Wellington Ambassador to France November 3rd, 1814, being offered command to North America to Lord Caslereagh on the preceedings at Ghent in a letter dated November 9th:
I confess that I think you have no right, from the state of war, to demand any concession of terriroty from America... You have not been able to carry it into the enemy's territory, notwithstanding your military success and now undoubted military superiority, and have not even cleared your own territroy on the point of attack. you can not on any principle of equality in negotiation claim a cessation of territoy exceptin in exchange for other advantages which you have in your power... Then if this resoning be true, why stipulate for the uti possidetis? You can get no territory: indeed, the state of your military operations, however creditable, does not entitle you to demand any.
It was at this point the negoiators at Ghent were informed to drop Uti possidetis and accept peace as status quo ante bellum Ian V. Toll pg 441.
A view on the British side of the war at this time found the public getting war weary and greeted the news of the continuation of war taxs with, according to the Morning Chronicle, a sense of horror and indignation. Ian V. Toll, pg 439.
Headlines from the Naval Chronicle:
Shipping insurance had gone up 300% since the start of the war. (pg 439) The annual cost of the war was 10 million pounds a year (pg 428)
In bottling up the US Navy Frigates the harbors of the southern US were wide open for privateers who had a hayday. (pg 426)
If you think that sounds grim try this on the American side: The cost of a decent bottle of wine $25 (would have bought a pretty good horse) The American Merchant Marine had all but disappeared The US Tresury was exhausted Rhode Island was facing food shortages New England was close to open revolt (pg 429)
Note at this time the Congress of Vienna was in full swing with Austria, Prussia, and Russia, dueling over who controlled what with the UK siding mostly with Austria, looking for territorial aqquistions in North America looked horrible in that light. See the Hundred Days that I and a few others are rewriting for referrencing on that fiasco.
Your thoughts and opinions Gentlemen, I will be adding more on other points that I have made here. Tirronan ( talk) 03:18, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
There are just as many finds one the causes, I guess where I am heading with this is to expand the article to give the reader a more complete view of what was happening in a complex war where both sides were after different aims for completely logical reasons. Its why you have the long arguments about win/loss the more you try to pin it down the more it eludes you why neither side really wanted a war and why both went to war. For instance, war hawks beside, the US went to this war in absolute dread but you don't see that here. The more we can get into the article that reflect this the better service we do for our readers. Tirronan ( talk) 06:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Anyway I am looking for how to expand and improve this article to at least a GA standard. What I am asking for is imput on additional points that I am making and how best to incorporate them into the article. I am asking for your help. Lets make sure we are doing that instead of blogging. The reasons I have put down the referring here is so that we all all evaluate it and use it on the article. Tirronan ( talk) 16:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
I've started the rewrite but I can use help as I am a bit played out for the evening and need sleep. Can one of you take a look at the section under Native American issues and rework that? I think between the master article on the origins of the war and what I have left you here you have enough to do that while I sleep. Tirronan ( talk) 06:36, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Ok folks I have been working this up for awhile and the question needs to be is this going the way you all think it should? Tirronan ( talk) 04:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
The consensus is that this war was a British victory. Just read the discussion pages if you are in any doubt. Alternatively, if you think the result should read 'Status quo ante bellum' please explain why the Battle of New Orleans should not also be described in the same way.
The argument seems to be that there were no American territorial claims on the Canadian colonies (which is not true) so therefore their failed invasion of Canada cannot be described as a defeat. I have news for you, Britain had no territorial claim on New Orleans.
Please do not vandalise this article further by violating Wikipedia policy on Consensus.
Thank you.
'Bias Remover' 9th December 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.138.200 ( talk) 14:12, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
I have read ALL the previous discussion which is precisely why I pointed out that the consensus is that it was a British victory.
I notice though that you have not addressed my point. It is OK though I understand why and admire you for it.
Is there anyone else out there with fewer scruples, who is shameless enough to try and justify why one failed invasion is described as a defeat and another isn't? Don't mention the elephant in the living room though, that in the case of the 'War of 1812' the losers happened to be American.
'Bias Remover' 9th December 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.138.200 ( talk) 15:03, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Hmmmm, again you want me to respond to your point having twice failed to respond to my original question. It must be a cultural difference but in my country that would be called bad manners.
Answer my question, and I will answer yours.
'Manners Teacher' 9th December 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.138.200 ( talk) 16:29, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
There are no less than 6 archive pages with arguments to both sides. There are arguments on this page as well. The general consensus is that it was a draw unless you have overwhelming reputable and verifiable sources that can prove otherwise. Now either prove it or drop it, otherwise you are acting like WP:Troll Sorry to be this way but I have run across to many of them to be willing to be drawn into another yap fest about it. Oh and while you are about it get an account they are free and I won't respond to an IP address more than once. Tirronan ( talk) 03:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I'd say that the outcome of the War of 1812 was most like the Korean War myself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.32.244.191 ( talk) 09:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Wow! Tirronan seems angry, and also seems to have a penchant for telling other people what to do. Sadly though this is not matched by a desire to learn grammar. Tirronan, you mean 'too' not 'to'. Now, if there is anyone out there who has actually completed high school and wants to answer my original question I would be delighted to discuss their response.
'Bias Remover' 13th December 2007
Thank you for your input, Sadly it has not made it any clearer to me why one failed invasion is described as 'status quo ante bellum' and the other isn't.
'Bias Remover' 20th December 2007. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.138.200 ( talk) 13:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
What you have is a POV warrior on the page and has been at this for months and half the talk page is related to his trolling. Take a look at his contributions and make your own decisions however I promise you that the only thing this fellow is interested in is provoking anyone around and that is the primary payoff for the personality type. I think that we need to work on getting the IP addressed banned for vandalism and be done with it. However responding to this guy in any way, shape, fashion, or form, will just get more of the same. Let him rant as a lone voice and start marking his changes on the talk page when he does it as vandalism and he'll be gone soon enough. Tirronan ( talk) 17:49, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
LOL @ banning contributors IP addresses. I am thinking of printing this talk page off and using it as source material for a psychology thesis.
'Bias Remover' 20th December 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.138.200 ( talk) 14:58, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
While I have my own opinion of who won/lost the war of 1812 perhaps this might go some way to end the troll bits on the victory/defeat issue. Your thoughts please.
Who won the War of 1812?
This subject has suffered arguments from every side since the war ended. One of the issues with this war is that both sides saw this as a limited war with limited aims. The United Kingdom never envisioned the recapture of the United States of America. The United States never thought it could actually defeat the United Kingdom. The evaluation of what each side hoped to accomplish and what it actually did accomplish is the only measure of what is victory. As the Treaty of Ghent only reverted, any gains that either side made during the war and addressed not a single issue substantially there is nothing to be learned by referring to this treaty, therefore only the actions of the parties afterwards can lead to any understanding of what was won or lost by the War of 1812.
United States of America’s war goals
The United States of America’s main goals were to force the United Kingdom to:
United Kingdom’s war goals
The United Kingdom main goals were to force the United States of America to:
The goals of both nations were fairly well met even if they were settled by later negotiation or by silent agreement.
Regardless of implicit or silent agreement, both sides of the war had achieved their war goals in the main.
Tirronan ( talk) 00:47, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
You know during the talks at Ghent the deal over immpresment was never discussed and continued after the war of 1812. So that is another faliure for America.