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If there were battles between US Navy ships and Royal Navy ships, does that not imply that the war was actually being fought in a particular location? So if there were battles between the USN and the RN in the Atlantic, Pacific and Indian Oceans where the ships fought and sunk or captured each other then I believe that there was warfare going on. I think that having warfare on at least three widely spread out places in the owrld justified the term worldwide. I cannot understand your reasoning for deleting the term. Please respond here instead to justify deleting my term. Dabbler 01:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Of course, wikipedia is systemically biased in favour of American propaganda history by virtue of the fact that the vast bulk of editors and contributors are American, and have wrought their patriotic doublethink on most military history subjects. However, it seems to me particularly brazen for Americans to claim as a "draw" (or sometimes, incredibly, a victory) a conflict in which none of their war aims were realised, and which hilariously resulted in the burning and sacking of the capital city of the USA. The attempt to invade Canada was wholly repulsed; the effort to assert US paramountcy in the Atlantic failed; the territorial integrity of the USA was not defended from counter-attack; Britain was not prevented from fighting two wars on two fronts simultaneously. However, American myth-history has inflated one successful but insignificant frigate duel into a story of military genius and triumph. Following the logic of the 'debate' surrounding the outcome of the War of 1812 one might as well claim that Vietnam was a "draw", if not a total victory! The fact of the matter is that the USA actually has a very limited history of military success, but because of American's massive insecurity complex about the cultural desert that is their 15-minute-long history they have to lie and exaggerate about every aspect of their past. Hence the endless hollywood movies portraying Brave American Heroes throwing out the tyrannical British (The Patriot), overthrowing slavery (Glory), winning WWII single-handedly (U-571, Saving Private Ryan, Pearl Harbor etc etc.), winning Vietnam (Rambo), winning Somalia (Blackhawk down), and on and on and on. Whereas when you look at it, America has been involved in relatively few conflicts, and has succeeded in a minority of them. Here's American military history in ten easy steps: (1) The Revolutionary War was fought and won by the French, (2) The Civil War - well, that's against themselves so they couldn't really manage to lose, (3) WWI where contrary to American belief they played no role at all until the last 10 minutes of conflict and even then were armed entirely with French and British weapons, (4) WWII where America lost no lives at all and bore the lightest burden of fighting of any of the combatant nations after having cravenly held back from the war until it was already clear which side would win, (5) Korea, where a "victory" meant getting right back to where you started, (6) Vietnam, the only war that the Americans ever admit to "drawing", (7) Every intervention in Granada, Somalia, Kosovo, Iran-Hostage Crisis etc. etc. - all screwed up by hayseed incompetent hick American troops, (8) Gulf War I, great way to get all the indigenous anti-Hussein faction killed, (9) Afghanistan 2001 - most Americans actually think that this ineffectual assault was a victory!, (10) Iraq 2003-present - do I need to say any more? --Corinthian 13:56, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Completely agree Corinthian. I have spent hours on here trying to point out the Pro US spin that makes this a draw, rather than a loss. I'm not quite sure what the US has to do to acutally lose a war: an unsuccessful attempt at an invasion, getting their Capital burnt down, and then having the British army wander around the country at will unchecked and then leaving of its own accord obviously isn't enough. Deathlibrarian 03:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The fact is, if you bring in enough spurious factors, you can say anything. Timber, The Brits real goal of taking Maine, American indians, treaty signing, what Wellington said, The Amazing battle of New Orleans (!!)...if you bring in enough non core issues....You can add on as many factors as you want....and revise history to the point where you can say anything. If, however, you stick to what the US really, actually wanted to do....invade Canada..and what the British wanted to do...kick them out and teach them a lesson...guess what? The US lost! Deathlibrarian 03:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
If you would like to Bash the U.S. can you please stick with the proper subject, this is not a discussion of U.S. wars, It is a discussion of the war of 1812. Your hatred of the U.S. should be in some other article. Oh and as for a U.S. loss. Mull this over. After a defeat in a War a country is suppose to lose infleunce in world affairs, ever since the War of 1812 the U.S. has gained infleunce in world affairs. Goal Achieved. Oh and by the way when you agree to a stalemate, by definition it is therefore a stalemate. --Kev62nesl 05:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Gentlemen, please! Restarting hostilities is not the answer. This is a historical article, and it is not up to we editors to determine whether one side beat the other. Or not. -- Jumbo 05:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to bash the US, I'm quite a fan, but I believe in representing history without spin doctoring.
Kev...more spurious factors that have nothing to do with the US loss of the war of 1812. The US gained influence in world affairs and became a great nation because of the cotton industry, trade, massive immigration, slave labour and the development of modern industry (amongst other things)......not because they lost a war in 1812 to the British! And BTW, the British never agreed to a stalemate, they signed a treaty to re establish the borders before the war, as the US, the UN and the Koreas did in The Korean War. This does not mean they lost the war...its completely different. You agree to a stalemate in chess...not after a war. 211.28.215.155 10:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The treaty was "status quo ante bellum". This is different to saying who was the victor, and of course covers up the fact that the US lost the war. Whie achieving some naval successes, militarily, the US were beaten decisively, and had a belligerent British force roaming their countryside that they could not defeat before the end of the war.
As for the "eventual Victory"..the British did not need to to fight anymore because they had acheived theirs. They had defeated the invasion of Canada, burnt the US capital, removed the US threat. Threaty signed, victory achieved and mission accomplished, they ceased hostilities, hopped on their ships and went home. Deathlibrarian 23:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Which British army was roaming around American Soil? The British army, after suffering losses at New Orleans, but still quite large, defeated the US troops at Fort Boyer, and its fleet controlled Mobile bay. They were conisdering further offensive action when news that the treaty had been signed reached them by dispatch ship, so they went home. Certainly the US won some battles, but overall, the US militia's and small regular army performed poorly against the British Regulars and their indian allies. And with more regular troops arriving after the defeat of Napoleon, it wasn't going to get better. Deathlibrarian 03:47, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
To make the case that the war was any kind of British victory, you have to a) claim that the only significant American objective was the conquest of Canada, and that this objective was pursued in a consistent way; and b) claim that the only significant British goal was to defend Canada, and that the burning of Washington was something other than a successful raid (well, a partially successful raid, what with the whole "not taking Baltimore" part of it. I think both of these claims are highly dubious. Referring to the war as a "British victory" is highly POV and deeply dubious, and we shouldn't go on about it any more. john k 18:05, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Who cares?
To say this was anything other than an embarrassing defeat for the US is totally ridiculous. All the debatable gains they were supposed to have made are of minor significance compared to the clear attempt at removing the British army from the North American continent, which subsequently failed with disasterous consequences for their own country.
Supposing the British had invaded the US and had finished the war the US army having torched London - would that be considered a "stalemate"? Absurd. We would never hear the end of it. Simon Horrocks
Absolutely. The British army weren't even driven from US soil, they left of their own accord when ordered too. I'm not quite sure what it takes for the US to actually lose a war. This article, until it reads "US loss of objective" is completely pro American biased. Deathlibrarian
It's nice to see sensible people like Dabbler emerge in a sea of ignorance that fills... just about everybody else in this. You guys aren't even listening to one another. How about having a civil debate instead of shouting hyperbole repeatedly?
Leaving aside for a moment the great debate about who won, I'm somewhat bemused by the claim in the openning sentence that in Britain it is referred to as "the American War of 1812 to 1815". I'm British. I've never heard the war referred to by this title. Given that the war went on for 3 years, the title "The War of 1812" is rather an odd one, but as far as I know that's also what it's known as in the UK. Or I may just be a victim of "American propaganda history". Paul B 14:16, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thats because it started in 1812 -gailim
Ihave always referredto it as the Warof 1812 - but "Anglo-American War of 1812" would probably bebetter - especially considering that it tends to be mixed up with Napoleons invasion of Russia in 1812 [Pagren]
I have removed from the section on "Effects on Great Britain", an explanation for the American victories in single-ship duels that these were, "mostly due to the superior size and build quality of the American ships"
In the case of the three big American frigates, this was probably the cause. In about a dozen clashes between smaller vessels (American sloops or brigs versus British ships of about the same size), the Americans won eight or nine victories to the British one. In most of these, the ships were almost the same tonnage and strength (in number and weight of guns). The Americans sometimes had a slightly larger crew, though not enough to confer any decisive advantage.
It is clear that size or construction played little part. Sometimes the British ships fought bravely, even desperately, but once or twice they flinched. In some battles, the British gunners managed to miss with almost every shot, while the American guns were devastatingly accurate.
The most probable cause is that the Americans had handpicked and experienced crews, while the Royal Navy was overstretched with the Napoleonic and American wars, and had to make do with a lower quality; sometimes made worse by lack of practice. Roosevelt, The Naval War of 1812, ISBN 0375754199, is probably the most authoritative work, though not very readable; C.S. Forester, The Age of Fighting Sail, ISBN 0939218062 draws largely on Roosevelt for data but is easier to read. HLGallon 18:57, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
After a lot of discussion and editing we had setteld for quite a while on the formula for the origins as shown. Then it is unilaterally changed to state border disputes instead of American expansionism. If that is to be the case, then we should reword the the British side to American objections top pressing of British sailors from their ships and searching of American ships for banned trade with British enemies. The expansionism was well documented and is not in my opinion POV "Border disputes is massively POV in trying to exculpate the aggressor. The British were not disputing the border, the Americans were trying to erase it. Dabbler 13:50, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Haber 23:53, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Expansionism clearly applies to the US military expansion into Native Indian territory here, as well as trying to grab Canadian territory. British Colonialism may have been rife in other parts of the world (Mau,mau, India, Australia) but not in North America in the context of the War of 1812. There is a reason Native Americans fled to Canada...and its not because the Brits were evil expansionists! Its a shame that Expansionism at the expense of the Native Americans cannot be mentioned here, but that's what you get when you have a US bias in Wikipedia (coming from an Aussie). Deathlibrarian 07:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Whats all this talk of no side had a balance of anything, I may not be a mathematician, but 5000 British casulties to over 24,000 American casulties is a balance of something.
Shhhh dude...don't mention that the US lost 5 times as many troops as the brits. Someone may work out that the US lost the war! Deathlibrarian 10:48, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
What is the "17 000 other deaths" in the info box refering to? deaths due to disease, weather and accedents while on campaingn? I think that statement needs some context and varification. Also, I porposed a rework of the info box below, does that help address some of the concerns at all? Mike McGregor (Can) 18:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I've just run across War of 1812 Campaigns, which is probably redundant with this article and to a lesser extent with Chronology of the War of 1812. I've marked it for merging, but someone here might want to take a look at it. Shimgray | talk | 10:56, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
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I personally think the info box could use a rework for consistancy-sake. I put together a proposal
here. the current version is at the top and my proposal is at the bottem. I've broken down the force strengths and casualties diffrently. for force strengths, I suggest using peak strengths for each category over the course of the war. please comment on the talk page there to suggest improvements and I'll bring it back here for approval or rejection.
Mike McGregor (Can)
19:22, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Here's a proposal for reorginizing the info box, what do folks think? If people could drop suggestions here on on the talk page here: User talk:Mike McGregor (Can)/1812 infobox. Mike McGregor (Can) 16:48, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone care if I replace the current infobox in the article with the one here? can anyone help fill in the figures? Mike McGregor (Can) 00:57, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
There didn't seem to be objections to the proposal, so I decided to "Be bold" and take that as a silent agreement. There is still info that needs to be plugged into the new box, and any help would be appreciated. If there are objections, the orriginal info box can easily be put back up... the code from the old box is here. Mike McGregor (Can) 02:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Stable versioning is being tested on this article. This means that all editing will be made on War of 1812/development, and on a regular basis, good edits will be moved onto the consensus page. If you disagree with the current version, please let me know. Ral315 ( talk) 05:27, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't the British deaths be built upon more? As it is now the US has numbers for how many died quite well detailed. For Britain though its just a basic number of killed and wounded making no distinction between civilian and military- to be neutral should there not be mention of the Canadian civilians killed since there is mention of the US citizens?-- Josquius 17:52, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
That's part of what I'm hoping to address with the info box changes I've proposed. Is the break-down of casualties there more along the lines of what you'd liek to see? Mike McGregor (Can) 21:25, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
The "treaty of Ghent" is not standard for the result for the info box. Standard entries here are win or loose...or strategic victory, tactical loss etc. Putting the phrase "treaty of Ghent" here is meaninless to anyone trying to get a quick snapshot of the war of 1812 by looking at the infobox.
Threaty of Ghent is a treaty that ended the hostilities, signed by the US and the UK...its not a "result" as is the norm for the infobox. I vote it be taken out. Deathlibrarian 07:25, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Status Quo seems to be a nice way of saying the US invasion didn't work!!!! I'm assuming you should make some reference to the US invasion being repulsed here? I think this should be changes to tactical loss US, as it did not achieve its objectives Deathlibrarian 08:34, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
While this point has been debated, I think that putting something that is blatently misleading, just for the sake of avoiding an argument is not in the spirit of Wikipedia, or good historical practice. The Vulcan/logical part of my brain is saying this doesn't make any sense...Status Quo definitley is biased towards the US as it doesn't indicate the invasion of the US failed. Something like US invasion repulsed - Status Quo may be better. I say tactical loss for US....or put some dispute notice if a decision can't be come too. Deathlibrarian 03:06, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Ahh...no. The Brits successfully invaded the US. The British army crossed the border, though they unsuccessfully attacked a number of towns, they stayed in the US and then only left of their own accord after they learnt that the treaty signed was in 1814. The last battle of the War of 1812, after Battle of New Orleans, was actually won by the British army The battle of Fort Bowyer. The British were being reinforced, and were preparing to move against Mobile, in Oklahoma when they learnt of peace and so sailed back to the UK. Of course, this is beside the point. The whole point of the war was that the US was trying to invade canada...they did not and the fact that we have "status quo" as a result doesn't represent the fact that the US invasion of Canada failed..and thus Canada is an independant country today :-) 211.28.215.155 09:14, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Ah yeah...I'm pretty sure that we already did this discussion, but whatever. Look the reason that it is listed as Status Quo anti bellum is because that was the result. Niether side's boundary's changed from their boundary's prewar location. And as for the political results of the War, the British Empire was able to keep its control over Canada, and the United States was able to assert its sovernty. Both sides got what they wanted from the war. I dont see any gains or losses on either side that could justify a change from the current end result:Status quo anti bellum. Also does anyone else think that the picture in the box could be a lot better than the one that is featured, there are much better pictures to represent the war, and even to represent the battle of Queenstown Heights.Lucas(CA)
It's fine if you just cut and pasted the picture and caption, but there are better images to encapsulate the war, and we should find one. Lucas(CA)
Can any one point me towards some sources on the American Raid on Port Dover and surrounding area? Thanks, Mike McGregor (Can) 16:39, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
While generally I think this is a very good article and does well to avoid POV, I do think it slips up in the 'Operations on the Oceans' section. Rather a lot of it seems to be devoted to the (certainly impressive) American ship-to-ship victories (and, where the British win, in praising American courage or exculpating the loss - at one point an American privateer who is captured is praised for his 'audacity'). There's no indication that any of these fine victories were militarily or strategically significant. The purpose of a Navy is to defend the home coast, attack the enemy's and control the sea lanes. The US Navy failed in virtually every way. This may be understandable, given the numerical superiority of the RN, but it's still true. Concentrating on some individual victories is a bit like writing an article on the Western Front and devoting half of it to Arnhem and the Bulge. ~~TMR~~ 4 Sep. 2006
I noticed there seems to be some attempt to make out that the British Invaded the US First. William Hull invaded Canada on July 12, and the British took Fort Mackinack 5 days later. Both actions apparently before the formal declaration of war on July 18???? I have corrected the "Invasions of Upper and Lower Canada, 1812" that seemed to indicate the Brits moving first. Also refering to "both sides invading" seems a bit ludicrous. The US force under William HUll was a true invasion force, the Brits taking a border fort with a small "scratch force" hardly counts as an invasion. Deathlibrarian 05:23, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I fixed some dates - but there was a sea battle even before that - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812#Operations_on_the_oceans -- JimWae 06:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC) also http://members.tripod.com/war1812/
Are you referring to a British force chasing the USS Chesapeake on July 17?. Thats after Hull invaded Canada. Deathlibrarian 10:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Belvidera - http://members.tripod.com/war1812/pvsb.html -- JimWae 14:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I wasn't referring to the *simltaneousness* I was referring to the fact that it had been said the British Invaded, as well as the US. 300 British guys taking a fort is not an invasion. An invasion implies an army subjugating or attempting to take control of a country. You can't do that with 300 British troops (unless they were Gurkhas of course). The obvious events that were happenning at the beginning of the war were the invasion attempts of the US into Canada, trying to justify/hide that by saying..."the British invaded as well" is a nice bit of spin doctoring, IMHO Deathlibrarian 13:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
We could probably argue all day, depending on how you define "invasion". Certainly most military historians would not regard it as an invasion. Its basically about the size of the group making the incursion. 3 guys crossing the border is not an invasion of a country. Nor is 300. 2,500 could be.
Its also about intent. Whether Hull's troops actually did anything or not is not important. Hulls force was an invasion force, with the *intent* (combined with the other invading armies) to take Canada.The 300 Brit troops had no intent to invade the US, their objective was to take a fort. And Lord Bob, you can see from my other posts, I agree with you, its completely obvious the Brits did win the war of 1812. YOu'd think the British army wandering around the states unchallenged, attacking things at will and then leaving of their own accord would indicate that. And the fact the US acheived none of their objectives...in fact they lost Maine. But most American writers will never agree with you, and they write wikipedia. 203.35.150.226 03:37, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I have added William Hull and Isaac Brock to the list of commanders due to their major roles in the fight for Upper Canada. While Hull's nationality is quite clear, I was unsure whether Brock should be listed as British or Canadian, seeing as like most Canadians then, he was both. I decided, however to mark him as Canadian because most of those he commanded were (or would later become) Canadians. -- 72.38.120.91 17:08, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
P.S. Were there no colonial Canadian flags in that period which could better represent the Canadians?
I think we should keep the info box as simple as possible. Maybe Brock and Hull would be better represented in more campaign specific articles... Mike McGregor (Can) 12:03, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone have a reference for "American War of 1812 to 1815" being the UK English name for this war? I tried searching Google books to no avail, and a Google search largely brings up Wikipedia mirrors. - FrancisTyers · 14:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
One reference on one museum site does not make it a significant current usage. The National Maritime Museum web site, for example, has five references to the "War of 1812" and one to the "Anglo-American War of 1812". To me, the implication is that it is usually referred to as the War of 1812 but some writers think it needs disambiguation. Dabbler
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
If there were battles between US Navy ships and Royal Navy ships, does that not imply that the war was actually being fought in a particular location? So if there were battles between the USN and the RN in the Atlantic, Pacific and Indian Oceans where the ships fought and sunk or captured each other then I believe that there was warfare going on. I think that having warfare on at least three widely spread out places in the owrld justified the term worldwide. I cannot understand your reasoning for deleting the term. Please respond here instead to justify deleting my term. Dabbler 01:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Of course, wikipedia is systemically biased in favour of American propaganda history by virtue of the fact that the vast bulk of editors and contributors are American, and have wrought their patriotic doublethink on most military history subjects. However, it seems to me particularly brazen for Americans to claim as a "draw" (or sometimes, incredibly, a victory) a conflict in which none of their war aims were realised, and which hilariously resulted in the burning and sacking of the capital city of the USA. The attempt to invade Canada was wholly repulsed; the effort to assert US paramountcy in the Atlantic failed; the territorial integrity of the USA was not defended from counter-attack; Britain was not prevented from fighting two wars on two fronts simultaneously. However, American myth-history has inflated one successful but insignificant frigate duel into a story of military genius and triumph. Following the logic of the 'debate' surrounding the outcome of the War of 1812 one might as well claim that Vietnam was a "draw", if not a total victory! The fact of the matter is that the USA actually has a very limited history of military success, but because of American's massive insecurity complex about the cultural desert that is their 15-minute-long history they have to lie and exaggerate about every aspect of their past. Hence the endless hollywood movies portraying Brave American Heroes throwing out the tyrannical British (The Patriot), overthrowing slavery (Glory), winning WWII single-handedly (U-571, Saving Private Ryan, Pearl Harbor etc etc.), winning Vietnam (Rambo), winning Somalia (Blackhawk down), and on and on and on. Whereas when you look at it, America has been involved in relatively few conflicts, and has succeeded in a minority of them. Here's American military history in ten easy steps: (1) The Revolutionary War was fought and won by the French, (2) The Civil War - well, that's against themselves so they couldn't really manage to lose, (3) WWI where contrary to American belief they played no role at all until the last 10 minutes of conflict and even then were armed entirely with French and British weapons, (4) WWII where America lost no lives at all and bore the lightest burden of fighting of any of the combatant nations after having cravenly held back from the war until it was already clear which side would win, (5) Korea, where a "victory" meant getting right back to where you started, (6) Vietnam, the only war that the Americans ever admit to "drawing", (7) Every intervention in Granada, Somalia, Kosovo, Iran-Hostage Crisis etc. etc. - all screwed up by hayseed incompetent hick American troops, (8) Gulf War I, great way to get all the indigenous anti-Hussein faction killed, (9) Afghanistan 2001 - most Americans actually think that this ineffectual assault was a victory!, (10) Iraq 2003-present - do I need to say any more? --Corinthian 13:56, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Completely agree Corinthian. I have spent hours on here trying to point out the Pro US spin that makes this a draw, rather than a loss. I'm not quite sure what the US has to do to acutally lose a war: an unsuccessful attempt at an invasion, getting their Capital burnt down, and then having the British army wander around the country at will unchecked and then leaving of its own accord obviously isn't enough. Deathlibrarian 03:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The fact is, if you bring in enough spurious factors, you can say anything. Timber, The Brits real goal of taking Maine, American indians, treaty signing, what Wellington said, The Amazing battle of New Orleans (!!)...if you bring in enough non core issues....You can add on as many factors as you want....and revise history to the point where you can say anything. If, however, you stick to what the US really, actually wanted to do....invade Canada..and what the British wanted to do...kick them out and teach them a lesson...guess what? The US lost! Deathlibrarian 03:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
If you would like to Bash the U.S. can you please stick with the proper subject, this is not a discussion of U.S. wars, It is a discussion of the war of 1812. Your hatred of the U.S. should be in some other article. Oh and as for a U.S. loss. Mull this over. After a defeat in a War a country is suppose to lose infleunce in world affairs, ever since the War of 1812 the U.S. has gained infleunce in world affairs. Goal Achieved. Oh and by the way when you agree to a stalemate, by definition it is therefore a stalemate. --Kev62nesl 05:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Gentlemen, please! Restarting hostilities is not the answer. This is a historical article, and it is not up to we editors to determine whether one side beat the other. Or not. -- Jumbo 05:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to bash the US, I'm quite a fan, but I believe in representing history without spin doctoring.
Kev...more spurious factors that have nothing to do with the US loss of the war of 1812. The US gained influence in world affairs and became a great nation because of the cotton industry, trade, massive immigration, slave labour and the development of modern industry (amongst other things)......not because they lost a war in 1812 to the British! And BTW, the British never agreed to a stalemate, they signed a treaty to re establish the borders before the war, as the US, the UN and the Koreas did in The Korean War. This does not mean they lost the war...its completely different. You agree to a stalemate in chess...not after a war. 211.28.215.155 10:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The treaty was "status quo ante bellum". This is different to saying who was the victor, and of course covers up the fact that the US lost the war. Whie achieving some naval successes, militarily, the US were beaten decisively, and had a belligerent British force roaming their countryside that they could not defeat before the end of the war.
As for the "eventual Victory"..the British did not need to to fight anymore because they had acheived theirs. They had defeated the invasion of Canada, burnt the US capital, removed the US threat. Threaty signed, victory achieved and mission accomplished, they ceased hostilities, hopped on their ships and went home. Deathlibrarian 23:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Which British army was roaming around American Soil? The British army, after suffering losses at New Orleans, but still quite large, defeated the US troops at Fort Boyer, and its fleet controlled Mobile bay. They were conisdering further offensive action when news that the treaty had been signed reached them by dispatch ship, so they went home. Certainly the US won some battles, but overall, the US militia's and small regular army performed poorly against the British Regulars and their indian allies. And with more regular troops arriving after the defeat of Napoleon, it wasn't going to get better. Deathlibrarian 03:47, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
To make the case that the war was any kind of British victory, you have to a) claim that the only significant American objective was the conquest of Canada, and that this objective was pursued in a consistent way; and b) claim that the only significant British goal was to defend Canada, and that the burning of Washington was something other than a successful raid (well, a partially successful raid, what with the whole "not taking Baltimore" part of it. I think both of these claims are highly dubious. Referring to the war as a "British victory" is highly POV and deeply dubious, and we shouldn't go on about it any more. john k 18:05, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Who cares?
To say this was anything other than an embarrassing defeat for the US is totally ridiculous. All the debatable gains they were supposed to have made are of minor significance compared to the clear attempt at removing the British army from the North American continent, which subsequently failed with disasterous consequences for their own country.
Supposing the British had invaded the US and had finished the war the US army having torched London - would that be considered a "stalemate"? Absurd. We would never hear the end of it. Simon Horrocks
Absolutely. The British army weren't even driven from US soil, they left of their own accord when ordered too. I'm not quite sure what it takes for the US to actually lose a war. This article, until it reads "US loss of objective" is completely pro American biased. Deathlibrarian
It's nice to see sensible people like Dabbler emerge in a sea of ignorance that fills... just about everybody else in this. You guys aren't even listening to one another. How about having a civil debate instead of shouting hyperbole repeatedly?
Leaving aside for a moment the great debate about who won, I'm somewhat bemused by the claim in the openning sentence that in Britain it is referred to as "the American War of 1812 to 1815". I'm British. I've never heard the war referred to by this title. Given that the war went on for 3 years, the title "The War of 1812" is rather an odd one, but as far as I know that's also what it's known as in the UK. Or I may just be a victim of "American propaganda history". Paul B 14:16, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thats because it started in 1812 -gailim
Ihave always referredto it as the Warof 1812 - but "Anglo-American War of 1812" would probably bebetter - especially considering that it tends to be mixed up with Napoleons invasion of Russia in 1812 [Pagren]
I have removed from the section on "Effects on Great Britain", an explanation for the American victories in single-ship duels that these were, "mostly due to the superior size and build quality of the American ships"
In the case of the three big American frigates, this was probably the cause. In about a dozen clashes between smaller vessels (American sloops or brigs versus British ships of about the same size), the Americans won eight or nine victories to the British one. In most of these, the ships were almost the same tonnage and strength (in number and weight of guns). The Americans sometimes had a slightly larger crew, though not enough to confer any decisive advantage.
It is clear that size or construction played little part. Sometimes the British ships fought bravely, even desperately, but once or twice they flinched. In some battles, the British gunners managed to miss with almost every shot, while the American guns were devastatingly accurate.
The most probable cause is that the Americans had handpicked and experienced crews, while the Royal Navy was overstretched with the Napoleonic and American wars, and had to make do with a lower quality; sometimes made worse by lack of practice. Roosevelt, The Naval War of 1812, ISBN 0375754199, is probably the most authoritative work, though not very readable; C.S. Forester, The Age of Fighting Sail, ISBN 0939218062 draws largely on Roosevelt for data but is easier to read. HLGallon 18:57, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
After a lot of discussion and editing we had setteld for quite a while on the formula for the origins as shown. Then it is unilaterally changed to state border disputes instead of American expansionism. If that is to be the case, then we should reword the the British side to American objections top pressing of British sailors from their ships and searching of American ships for banned trade with British enemies. The expansionism was well documented and is not in my opinion POV "Border disputes is massively POV in trying to exculpate the aggressor. The British were not disputing the border, the Americans were trying to erase it. Dabbler 13:50, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Haber 23:53, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Expansionism clearly applies to the US military expansion into Native Indian territory here, as well as trying to grab Canadian territory. British Colonialism may have been rife in other parts of the world (Mau,mau, India, Australia) but not in North America in the context of the War of 1812. There is a reason Native Americans fled to Canada...and its not because the Brits were evil expansionists! Its a shame that Expansionism at the expense of the Native Americans cannot be mentioned here, but that's what you get when you have a US bias in Wikipedia (coming from an Aussie). Deathlibrarian 07:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Whats all this talk of no side had a balance of anything, I may not be a mathematician, but 5000 British casulties to over 24,000 American casulties is a balance of something.
Shhhh dude...don't mention that the US lost 5 times as many troops as the brits. Someone may work out that the US lost the war! Deathlibrarian 10:48, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
What is the "17 000 other deaths" in the info box refering to? deaths due to disease, weather and accedents while on campaingn? I think that statement needs some context and varification. Also, I porposed a rework of the info box below, does that help address some of the concerns at all? Mike McGregor (Can) 18:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I've just run across War of 1812 Campaigns, which is probably redundant with this article and to a lesser extent with Chronology of the War of 1812. I've marked it for merging, but someone here might want to take a look at it. Shimgray | talk | 10:56, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
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I personally think the info box could use a rework for consistancy-sake. I put together a proposal
here. the current version is at the top and my proposal is at the bottem. I've broken down the force strengths and casualties diffrently. for force strengths, I suggest using peak strengths for each category over the course of the war. please comment on the talk page there to suggest improvements and I'll bring it back here for approval or rejection.
Mike McGregor (Can)
19:22, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Here's a proposal for reorginizing the info box, what do folks think? If people could drop suggestions here on on the talk page here: User talk:Mike McGregor (Can)/1812 infobox. Mike McGregor (Can) 16:48, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone care if I replace the current infobox in the article with the one here? can anyone help fill in the figures? Mike McGregor (Can) 00:57, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
There didn't seem to be objections to the proposal, so I decided to "Be bold" and take that as a silent agreement. There is still info that needs to be plugged into the new box, and any help would be appreciated. If there are objections, the orriginal info box can easily be put back up... the code from the old box is here. Mike McGregor (Can) 02:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Stable versioning is being tested on this article. This means that all editing will be made on War of 1812/development, and on a regular basis, good edits will be moved onto the consensus page. If you disagree with the current version, please let me know. Ral315 ( talk) 05:27, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't the British deaths be built upon more? As it is now the US has numbers for how many died quite well detailed. For Britain though its just a basic number of killed and wounded making no distinction between civilian and military- to be neutral should there not be mention of the Canadian civilians killed since there is mention of the US citizens?-- Josquius 17:52, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
That's part of what I'm hoping to address with the info box changes I've proposed. Is the break-down of casualties there more along the lines of what you'd liek to see? Mike McGregor (Can) 21:25, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
The "treaty of Ghent" is not standard for the result for the info box. Standard entries here are win or loose...or strategic victory, tactical loss etc. Putting the phrase "treaty of Ghent" here is meaninless to anyone trying to get a quick snapshot of the war of 1812 by looking at the infobox.
Threaty of Ghent is a treaty that ended the hostilities, signed by the US and the UK...its not a "result" as is the norm for the infobox. I vote it be taken out. Deathlibrarian 07:25, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Status Quo seems to be a nice way of saying the US invasion didn't work!!!! I'm assuming you should make some reference to the US invasion being repulsed here? I think this should be changes to tactical loss US, as it did not achieve its objectives Deathlibrarian 08:34, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
While this point has been debated, I think that putting something that is blatently misleading, just for the sake of avoiding an argument is not in the spirit of Wikipedia, or good historical practice. The Vulcan/logical part of my brain is saying this doesn't make any sense...Status Quo definitley is biased towards the US as it doesn't indicate the invasion of the US failed. Something like US invasion repulsed - Status Quo may be better. I say tactical loss for US....or put some dispute notice if a decision can't be come too. Deathlibrarian 03:06, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Ahh...no. The Brits successfully invaded the US. The British army crossed the border, though they unsuccessfully attacked a number of towns, they stayed in the US and then only left of their own accord after they learnt that the treaty signed was in 1814. The last battle of the War of 1812, after Battle of New Orleans, was actually won by the British army The battle of Fort Bowyer. The British were being reinforced, and were preparing to move against Mobile, in Oklahoma when they learnt of peace and so sailed back to the UK. Of course, this is beside the point. The whole point of the war was that the US was trying to invade canada...they did not and the fact that we have "status quo" as a result doesn't represent the fact that the US invasion of Canada failed..and thus Canada is an independant country today :-) 211.28.215.155 09:14, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Ah yeah...I'm pretty sure that we already did this discussion, but whatever. Look the reason that it is listed as Status Quo anti bellum is because that was the result. Niether side's boundary's changed from their boundary's prewar location. And as for the political results of the War, the British Empire was able to keep its control over Canada, and the United States was able to assert its sovernty. Both sides got what they wanted from the war. I dont see any gains or losses on either side that could justify a change from the current end result:Status quo anti bellum. Also does anyone else think that the picture in the box could be a lot better than the one that is featured, there are much better pictures to represent the war, and even to represent the battle of Queenstown Heights.Lucas(CA)
It's fine if you just cut and pasted the picture and caption, but there are better images to encapsulate the war, and we should find one. Lucas(CA)
Can any one point me towards some sources on the American Raid on Port Dover and surrounding area? Thanks, Mike McGregor (Can) 16:39, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
While generally I think this is a very good article and does well to avoid POV, I do think it slips up in the 'Operations on the Oceans' section. Rather a lot of it seems to be devoted to the (certainly impressive) American ship-to-ship victories (and, where the British win, in praising American courage or exculpating the loss - at one point an American privateer who is captured is praised for his 'audacity'). There's no indication that any of these fine victories were militarily or strategically significant. The purpose of a Navy is to defend the home coast, attack the enemy's and control the sea lanes. The US Navy failed in virtually every way. This may be understandable, given the numerical superiority of the RN, but it's still true. Concentrating on some individual victories is a bit like writing an article on the Western Front and devoting half of it to Arnhem and the Bulge. ~~TMR~~ 4 Sep. 2006
I noticed there seems to be some attempt to make out that the British Invaded the US First. William Hull invaded Canada on July 12, and the British took Fort Mackinack 5 days later. Both actions apparently before the formal declaration of war on July 18???? I have corrected the "Invasions of Upper and Lower Canada, 1812" that seemed to indicate the Brits moving first. Also refering to "both sides invading" seems a bit ludicrous. The US force under William HUll was a true invasion force, the Brits taking a border fort with a small "scratch force" hardly counts as an invasion. Deathlibrarian 05:23, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I fixed some dates - but there was a sea battle even before that - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812#Operations_on_the_oceans -- JimWae 06:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC) also http://members.tripod.com/war1812/
Are you referring to a British force chasing the USS Chesapeake on July 17?. Thats after Hull invaded Canada. Deathlibrarian 10:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Belvidera - http://members.tripod.com/war1812/pvsb.html -- JimWae 14:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I wasn't referring to the *simltaneousness* I was referring to the fact that it had been said the British Invaded, as well as the US. 300 British guys taking a fort is not an invasion. An invasion implies an army subjugating or attempting to take control of a country. You can't do that with 300 British troops (unless they were Gurkhas of course). The obvious events that were happenning at the beginning of the war were the invasion attempts of the US into Canada, trying to justify/hide that by saying..."the British invaded as well" is a nice bit of spin doctoring, IMHO Deathlibrarian 13:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
We could probably argue all day, depending on how you define "invasion". Certainly most military historians would not regard it as an invasion. Its basically about the size of the group making the incursion. 3 guys crossing the border is not an invasion of a country. Nor is 300. 2,500 could be.
Its also about intent. Whether Hull's troops actually did anything or not is not important. Hulls force was an invasion force, with the *intent* (combined with the other invading armies) to take Canada.The 300 Brit troops had no intent to invade the US, their objective was to take a fort. And Lord Bob, you can see from my other posts, I agree with you, its completely obvious the Brits did win the war of 1812. YOu'd think the British army wandering around the states unchallenged, attacking things at will and then leaving of their own accord would indicate that. And the fact the US acheived none of their objectives...in fact they lost Maine. But most American writers will never agree with you, and they write wikipedia. 203.35.150.226 03:37, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I have added William Hull and Isaac Brock to the list of commanders due to their major roles in the fight for Upper Canada. While Hull's nationality is quite clear, I was unsure whether Brock should be listed as British or Canadian, seeing as like most Canadians then, he was both. I decided, however to mark him as Canadian because most of those he commanded were (or would later become) Canadians. -- 72.38.120.91 17:08, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
P.S. Were there no colonial Canadian flags in that period which could better represent the Canadians?
I think we should keep the info box as simple as possible. Maybe Brock and Hull would be better represented in more campaign specific articles... Mike McGregor (Can) 12:03, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone have a reference for "American War of 1812 to 1815" being the UK English name for this war? I tried searching Google books to no avail, and a Google search largely brings up Wikipedia mirrors. - FrancisTyers · 14:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
One reference on one museum site does not make it a significant current usage. The National Maritime Museum web site, for example, has five references to the "War of 1812" and one to the "Anglo-American War of 1812". To me, the implication is that it is usually referred to as the War of 1812 but some writers think it needs disambiguation. Dabbler