![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I don't get the split between War in Somalia - present and War in Somalia 2007. We merging the two pages or not updating the 2007 page by error? Just curious. I really appreciate all the work other are doing here. -- Rcollman 01:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I think whoever nominated this as a Good Article should rethink that, as part of the Good Article criteria is stability, which an event as current and rapidly changing as this probably won't produce for this article. Homestarmy 03:45, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Could someone add a source for the fatalities in the infovox? – Zntrip 01:02, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
This has a merge tag and documents a current event. It's not stable enough. Wiki-newbie 15:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
-- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 16:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Are there any volunteers from the West helping the Ethiopians and their Somali allies fight the Islamists? -- Vladko 02:48, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I guess Mustaf Jama, PC Sharon Beshenivsky's murderer, has managed to reach his homeland. I hope the Ethiopians capture him and treat him like they did with the Italian POWs during the Abyssinian War. -- Vladko 08:57, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I changed the name to 2006-present War in Somalia (example: 2001-present war in Afghanistan) but administrators can agree freely on changing to Ethiopian war in Somalia ( Soviet war in Afghanistan, as example) -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 02:59, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
-- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 14:46, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
[1] <- its troops are fighting, and also confirms it is on the offensive -> [2], like the Soviet Union in the Afghan Civil War and Israel in the Lebanese Civil War. -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 12:59, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
It has now escalated and it's a full-blown war any thoughts on renaming to Ethiopian-Islamic Courts Union War. It's no more a civil war... -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 13:21, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm strongly in favour of Ethiopian war in Somalia. — Nightst a llion (?) 17:09, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
The flip side of war is peace. I have created a separate page where diplomatic and humanitarian initiatives and news can be reported, separate from the military aspects of the conflict. Feel free to help buff it up. -- Petercorless 12:52, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
10,000 – 30,000 soldiers for the ICU forces against clan militia listed for the government is not quite correct. The ICU has allied clan militias. Furthermore there are warlords of clans and businessmen with their own armed forces (sometimes called businesslords) so the ICU military system isn't that much of an organized army like the word soldier suggests, although its core of forces is organized by the ICU itself (they derived from a kind of "police forces"). Wandalstouring 12:55, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I added another new map for the conflict. My main concern is the boundaries drawn in Gedo. Can anyone confirm if Bardheere has been occupied by the ICU yet? I saw an article that said they were approaching the town on Dec 19, but I might have jumped the gun by showing it, and much of the land to the north, occupied by the ICU. Please let me know the status of the conflict in Gedo, and I can revise the map as appropriate. Also, the boundaries of the areas were taken from a 2004 map of the administrative regions. They do not directly coincide with the regional boundaries I had in my other map, or that were depicted in the other maps. If possible, I will redo those regional boundaries as well in an upcoming revision. -- Petercorless 01:10, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
The name on the map should be of this war, not the civil war. -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 03:37, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
In response, I created a new version of the map (Image:Somali-war-12252006-0804.svg) with the following changes:
Things not done:
Ingoman, I read your comments but because I cannot establish in any way whether Somaliland-Jubaland has turned into any actual military actions related to the present stage of the Civil War. Somaliland seems, for all intents, "neutral" towards present events in the south. I also had to make a few choices to make the graphic understandable. Right now, the TFG, JVA and Ethiopian militaries are operating in alliance. It makes sense to keep them all together. Likewise, I kept Puntland and Ethipia as their own color in the north. Please let me know if you can find any activity for Galmudug remaining as an autonomous force, fighting independently or on the side of one or the other parties, in December. I am willing to be educated and to improve the maps as befitting the situation.
Please provide references/links to any documents if you wish for me to make changes to the map to account for your arguments so I can get more details of lines of control or names of towns under possession/occupation. Also, considering the maps will be changing, possibly a few times a week, please post comments here rather than on the specific image "talk" page, to track your comments over time. Thanks for the feedback! -- Petercorless 17:02, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Updated the "Battle of Baidoa" map to account for the following:
-- Petercorless 16:20, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Last report I saw of specific front lines listed Fidaw and Bur Weyn, which is still up near Buulo Burde. See: Somalia: Ethiopian warplanes bomb Lego, an Islamist base; though this is as of Dec 26, 8:30 am. Though they are indeed on the run, there were also reinforcements coming from Mogadishu. What I have yet to establish is a specific new frontage.
I have not seen a confirmation of withdrawal from Tiyoglow, nor what is particularly occurring in the Juba valley. I'm wondering whether the ICU will send all their troops back to Mogadishu, or if any of them might make a front before Kismayo, or begin any independent raids or last stands at whatever place they happen to occupy presently. There might be pockets of resistance the Ethiopians and government forces bypass on their forward march.
I will to start a new map for the next phase of the campaign, which is likely to be the advance of the TFG/Ethiopian troops to the outskirts of Mogadishu. I am deliberating on whether the map should be more regional, to comprise as far south as Kismayo, and as far north as Beledweyne, or simply keep the same scale/scope to compare over time with the present map, and create a separate "Kismayo" area if that develops into a conflict zone.
At this point, I am calling a 'wrap' on the Battle of Baidoa map, and will come out with 'something new' depending on what news events we see in the coming days, and where the fighting seems to pick up.
Further north, and nationally, I am wondering what is happening in Galgadud. I have no reports of forces coming back through Ballanballe, nor indication that the Ethiopians have pressed on towards Dhuusamareeb yet. -- Petercorless 01:15, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
A lot of new content is coming in as actions are reported, but I'd like to remind everyone that the MoS recommends avoiding one sentence paragraphs and linking to nonexistent articles. It makes the article look poor and confusing. Otherwise, everyone keep up the good work! — Aiden 16:15, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
As we have FORMAL declarations of war from both sides, it cannot be neither conflict, neither original research, because we have sources (see references in article).
War in Somalia (2006-present) is most NPOV for me. As is Battle of Baidoa etc... -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 11:05, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I will suggest the above user to use his or her soapbox for these pro-western rantings and keep the CNN sponsered opinions down to a minimum. How many people has Melwes killed? How many have these court killed, havent they brough peace? Ethiopia has all kinds of other concerns they seem to neglect--like its people. (ha ha My soapbox)-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 19:03, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Condoleeza Rice, a government Secretary, has said that Ugandan troops are in Somalia. The Ugandan government is denying this, because it'd be illegal for them at the moment, but it's coming from a credible source. Since the US looks favourably towards Uganda involvement, would it not be safe to assume that alleged Ugandan troops would be on the side of the Ethiopians in "restoring peace"? -- Permafrost 16:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Islamic threats follow Ethiopian troop advancement in Somalia USA Today -- Petercorless 17:17, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
can we add a source for the statement that Melwes said he had no troops in Somalia?-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 00:54, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
No WAY man, how that is sound nice to believe, Somalia said they saw them all of a sudden a war. YOu know what happened, he was waiting on the full permission from USA. Like this is an African war this is an extension of US control and western interest, like Sudan and their oil, America cannot fight the war so get poor hungry need every cent they can get Ethiopia to fight. Sorry for the soapbox. But We cannot take any politician at face value, look at the Iraq of "they have WMD" -- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 01:21, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
i agree about using "lie" but it is a very upsetting issue.But the ranting of an Ethiopian dictator needs to be put into context, p.s I am not anti-West, i am anti-colonialism and terrorism (governement or otherwise)-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 01:42, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Oh good than you are against Arab colonialism, well said. The Arabs are trying to colonize Somalia through the islamist groups and lie about the aid they recieve as well. The ICU gets help from Arabs, Djibouti, Iranians and Eriteans. See article on ICU on this.
How come the other maps of the conflict have been removed? I'm talking about the ones made by User:Ingoman, they were excellent stuff and it seems very strange now to only have two of them. Now people can't see the rest of the situation and the lead-up to the most recent phase. I think they should be back, maybe if they are taking up too much room they can be put into a gallery box side-by-side, or something like that. -- Hibernian 07:39, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
How is this two separate civil wars? When did the first one ever end? When a civil war ends it means that the factions in the war are no longer fighting either because they've all agreed to peace (which never happened - some factions agreed to peace, not all) or they have all been defeated save for one victorious faction (which also hasn't happened). You even point out that between 1993 and 2004 there were only attempts at reconciliation. Attempts at reconciliation do not mean all the factions were reconciled. This is more of a new phase in the civil war, but it is still the same civil war. The Islamic Courts were just a new faction in an old civil war, just like the Taliban in Afghanistan (and I'm not comparing the policies of either just their rise within a civil war). 72.27.62.58 18:42, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I have been seeing a hiran all over the article, its actually Hiiraan and since my account is named after it, I should know it :) ... I am just informing everyone who is editing the article to use Hiiraan and not Hiran because hiran is incorrect! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hiiraan ( talk • contribs) 08:03, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
No, it's not called "transliterating" when both orthographies already use the Latin alphabet. "Transliterating" is when you represent the sounds of one alphabet in an entirely different alphabet. I again ask if you can show me one other language where there is a precedent for Anglicizing orthographies from another language written in the Latin alphabet. By the very same logic you use, Wikipedia should move the article Juan Valdez to Wan Valdez, because the letter J has a different sound value in Spanish, and this might prove too confusing for some English speakers. There is no difference in the argument you are using here. áˆá‰ƒá‹° ( á‹á‹á‹á‰µ) 15:49, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I realize that this article's subject is the epitome of a Current Event in which "information may change rapidly as the event progresses", but can editors make some effort to stick to inline citation style when adding references? A mixture of embedded numbered links and inline footnotes makes the article look less professional, and ultimately just creates more work, in order to switch one set of references to the other method. Please? Thank you. - Fsotrain 09 19:02, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
The Somalia article uses the term UIC whereas this article uses the term ICU. Should usage be standardized? Otherwise readers will be prone to confusion. I've noticed that this discussion uses both. Mamalujo 19:32, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
The current article says 21 December in the lead and 20 December in the infobox, while at other times it has said 24 December (when Meles admitted that Ethiopia was fighting). Shouldn't the war have started on 19 December, the first day of fighting when the 7-day ultimatum issued by the ICU expired? — ዮሠ| (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 20:38, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
yes it should be when the war physically started not when the US rep in Ethiopia (Aka..) admitted 2 war.--
HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ)
20:43, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello guys, the article kicks ass!! Let's "drive" it towards Featured Article level! -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 22:05, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
It is a very well constructed article , i like those maps. still dont know how ET can afford a war.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 22:51, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Is there any more shortening we can do for this main article by moving sections to the specific pages for aspects of the conflict? Feedback? I did not want to hack away anyone's timeless prose just yet. -- Petercorless 11:48, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
There were a few oddities after an edit of footnotes. I corrected them. -- Petercorless 00:18, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
"A spokesman for the African Union said Ethiopia has every right to defend its sovereignty and nodded Ethiopian military actions in Somalia." - what does nodded mean? Is that supposed to be noted? -- AW 15:41, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Depending on how things go, we might create a "Battle of Jilib" or a "Battle of Kismayo." I am working on a map for the Juba Valley area presently, to show the advances of the ICU in September and October, and the TFG advances from Bardheere and Dinsoor so far. -- Petercorless 21:05, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Looks like it wasn't needed. They abandoned Kismayo without much fighting Akubhai 16:29, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
I just want to thank you guys for reporting on this war which is an important front in the War on Terrorism. I figure that the ICU is just like the Taliban. But it does not get much coverage in the newspaper I read. So please keep up the good work. JRSpriggs 07:42, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
As this article is a candidate for the Release Version, can we try to see if a free image is at all available? I know the chances are slim, what with most photos being under the copyright of news organizations, but a good effort to find free images strengthens a fair use rationale. - Fsotrain 09 02:27, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I suggest splitting the article into two parts, similar to the Iraq War (Invasion + occupation), to:
-- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 17:21, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
It's not PREDICTIVE. It's ONGOING -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 14:41, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Rather than focus on an "occupation," which is speculative, I created a new section for the efforts on disarmament of the militias, which is a readily-citable government initiative. I put it in the "political" section rather than military. -- Petercorless 03:25, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Looking at Image:Somali_land_2007_01_01.png I found a few things to correct. The TFG/Ethiopian forces already took the following areas:
-- Petercorless 08:02, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not so sure this form of map works for insurgent movements. You might instead consider putting some form of explosion symbol where they have conducted attacks. That might also be more appropriate for other insurgency attacks in coming days. Because these are not issues of territorial control or standing forces so much as individual acts of violence. -- Petercorless 21:54, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
How much evidence is needed before Eritrea's involvement and those of foreign jihadists is confirmed? Here are some more recent sources, apart from claims at the Battle of Baidoa [12] [13] [14] — ዮሠ| (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 18:37, January 2, 2007
Hey, why isn't ABC News and all other news networks in the United States, haven't been covering the developments of the War in Somalia, because this is just as important as the issues like Saddam Hussein or Gerald Ford's death. I mean, come on, this war have been going off and on sproadically since 1986 and I have not heard one time that the media mention about this war. The only people I heard discussing about this war is sites like Wikipedia. If you like to send me a comment about why the media is so dishonest and won't cover the war, send it to my talk page, thanks.-- jsalims80 01:24, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Is the map going to be updated showing which areas are controlled by who and where troops currently are? As of right now the latest map shows the ICU retreating to Kiamayo, which we all know has fallen. I can't find anything new on what's going on. Is Ethiopia taking over land? TGF? Clans? Warlords? Puntland? If someone can update it that would be great. 68.192.83.150 03:36, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Please do not link to news.yahoo.com and to articles issued by Reuters (also at alertnet.org) or the Associated Press. They're existing only two or three months and then disappear and are therefore worthless, except for the claim of making an edit. The same problem is with newspaper websites which are using the original newsfeed of Reuters or AP, e.g. Washington Post (partly, can be easily recognised by the AP/Reuters logo near the headline), Forbes, CBS, partly CNN.
Safe links newspapers and other media outlets which usually publish AP/Reuters news without editing but keep them include BBC News (news.bbc.co.uk) Al Jazeera, Jerusalem Post, Independent Online (South Africa). In the cases in which the original title of the news is still available a Google advanced search with the exact phrase might be successfull to find and restore those links. Links to BBC News articles are safe, they stay forever. Links to Washington Post articles which had been published in the print edition are also safe and can be recognised by date and pagenumber near the title and byline of the article! -- 213.155.224.232 15:47, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Who are they, and why are they a reliable source? Do they have qualification beyond being a web site? -- Heptor talk 02:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I think we should need an article covering the ICU insurgency as part of this war. The post-Kismayo part is getting long. Any thoughts? -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 20:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I said ICU insurgency, not occupation. -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 22:16, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, is this war a part of the War on Terror? We have U.S. warships and Ethiopia is in the coalition. -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 20:54, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but that still doesn't necessarily mean that it is included. The attacks could be something else altogether. Including Somalia without sources is Original Research... Sfacets 21:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't believe that the War on Terrorism template should include Somalia yet. The ICU was a group created out of locals wanting security, not concerns outside their own country. The US claiming that there is Al-Queda members in the country has yet to be confirmed. Ironically, the US bombing has probably brought up anti-americanism that didn't exist before, but there is yet to have any confirmed terrorists involved. Mikebloke 17:16, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Since conventional warfare has been over for a week or so now, should we rename this article? I think 2006 War in Somalia is the best option. The war ended by January 1, 2007, and fighting in this year is minimal. The occupation being separate from the actual war, and military operations since 01/01/07 have basically been small operations, limited to minimal guerilla warfare and capturing terrorists and the leaders of the ICU. Perhaps some would consider that enough, but renaming it to 2006-2007 War in Somalia could be done now, since it is highly unlikely conflict will continue for another 359 days into 2008. I think "2006" is all the years we need to write, though. — ዮሠ| (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 22:08, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Because of the length of the article, and also to make the page look consistent, I am going to re-size all the maps to 300px. -- Petercorless 02:03, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I modified the title "Ethiopian occupation" to "Ethiopian military presence". While I don't strongly oppose the notion that it's an occupation, it's not clear from the definition (from Military occupation):
and
There's the question of what is legitimate power, and it can be argued that the TFG is in fact the legitimate government (since it is, and already was before the Ethiopian intervention, the largely internationally recognized one). Further it can be argued that the areas are ruled by the TFG, not the Ethiopian army. I think the question is centered on whether TFG is a "puppet government" instated by Ethiopia, OR, alternatively, whether the Ethiopians, not TFG, has the real power (and I don't think it's only about military power, but whether they actually grab the power and do what they want in spite of what the TFG says). Hence, I think the term "Ethiopian occupation" should be avoided. I have no objections to "the occupation of Mogadishu by the government" or "what is seen as foreign occupation". -- SLi 03:15, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
German Der Spiegel is interpretating the action rather as an action in WaT then an engagement into Somalian policy. Der Spiegel Online, today, English version-- 213.155.224.232 13:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
As I cited on the Battle of Ras Kamboni page, the "third" US strike by "helicopter gunships" near Afmadow was said by a US military official to have been Mil Mi-24 Hinds, not US AC-130s. I am going to revise the maps with that as a credible reading of events, as the Ethiopians had attacked Afmadow the day before with jets. And, seeing how they even struck a Kenyan village instead of Dhobley, I can see how they might have also made a mistaken strike against a civilian target near Afmadow. In anticipation of heading off any controversy I wanted to up-front explain here my reasoning. -- Petercorless 06:39, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Why the article has been moved to a version including a long dash? That makes problems on non-US-english Windows installations. Please move back. -- 213.155.224.232 10:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
There's a different issue, see modified Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dashes)#Dash guidelines for Wikipedia editors and the discussion there. -- 213.155.224.232 11:57, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Apparently the Ethiopians recently acquired 50 T-72 tanks from Yemen, according to Jane's, which I had cited in the article above the table: The Ethiopians have always been tough, mean Please don't blow away facts which I've already cited source for elsewhere in the article, unless you can cite a refutation. -- Petercorless 14:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I removed the Ethiopian MiG-21s, all were phased out of service (info from a Ethiopian from the ACIG forum) I added the sole BMP-2 of the Somali government (captured from the Islamists) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.56.96.232 ( talk) 17:07, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Snipped "The newspaper also accuses Aidid of committing atrocities against civilians in the Bay region." because the article in question was conjecturing Aidid would commit atrocities, not alleging he had done so. While there might be allegations he did commit attrocities in the Somali Civil War, this specific statement was the case of a misinterpretation. -- Petercorless 21:42, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Time for a new map? — Nightst a llion (?) 09:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that the main war is now over, and that any fighting currently taking place is in the context of an insurgancy, there do seem to be attacks in the capital, although the somali government and the Ethiopians may well be covering up the existance of other attacks. -- Boris Johnson VC 16:14, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
What's the situation with them have they announced to join the TFG or remain an autonomous area? -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 16:11, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I don't get the split between War in Somalia - present and War in Somalia 2007. We merging the two pages or not updating the 2007 page by error? Just curious. I really appreciate all the work other are doing here. -- Rcollman 01:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I think whoever nominated this as a Good Article should rethink that, as part of the Good Article criteria is stability, which an event as current and rapidly changing as this probably won't produce for this article. Homestarmy 03:45, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Could someone add a source for the fatalities in the infovox? – Zntrip 01:02, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
This has a merge tag and documents a current event. It's not stable enough. Wiki-newbie 15:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
-- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 16:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Are there any volunteers from the West helping the Ethiopians and their Somali allies fight the Islamists? -- Vladko 02:48, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I guess Mustaf Jama, PC Sharon Beshenivsky's murderer, has managed to reach his homeland. I hope the Ethiopians capture him and treat him like they did with the Italian POWs during the Abyssinian War. -- Vladko 08:57, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I changed the name to 2006-present War in Somalia (example: 2001-present war in Afghanistan) but administrators can agree freely on changing to Ethiopian war in Somalia ( Soviet war in Afghanistan, as example) -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 02:59, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
-- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 14:46, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
[1] <- its troops are fighting, and also confirms it is on the offensive -> [2], like the Soviet Union in the Afghan Civil War and Israel in the Lebanese Civil War. -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 12:59, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
It has now escalated and it's a full-blown war any thoughts on renaming to Ethiopian-Islamic Courts Union War. It's no more a civil war... -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 13:21, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm strongly in favour of Ethiopian war in Somalia. — Nightst a llion (?) 17:09, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
The flip side of war is peace. I have created a separate page where diplomatic and humanitarian initiatives and news can be reported, separate from the military aspects of the conflict. Feel free to help buff it up. -- Petercorless 12:52, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
10,000 – 30,000 soldiers for the ICU forces against clan militia listed for the government is not quite correct. The ICU has allied clan militias. Furthermore there are warlords of clans and businessmen with their own armed forces (sometimes called businesslords) so the ICU military system isn't that much of an organized army like the word soldier suggests, although its core of forces is organized by the ICU itself (they derived from a kind of "police forces"). Wandalstouring 12:55, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I added another new map for the conflict. My main concern is the boundaries drawn in Gedo. Can anyone confirm if Bardheere has been occupied by the ICU yet? I saw an article that said they were approaching the town on Dec 19, but I might have jumped the gun by showing it, and much of the land to the north, occupied by the ICU. Please let me know the status of the conflict in Gedo, and I can revise the map as appropriate. Also, the boundaries of the areas were taken from a 2004 map of the administrative regions. They do not directly coincide with the regional boundaries I had in my other map, or that were depicted in the other maps. If possible, I will redo those regional boundaries as well in an upcoming revision. -- Petercorless 01:10, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
The name on the map should be of this war, not the civil war. -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 03:37, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
In response, I created a new version of the map (Image:Somali-war-12252006-0804.svg) with the following changes:
Things not done:
Ingoman, I read your comments but because I cannot establish in any way whether Somaliland-Jubaland has turned into any actual military actions related to the present stage of the Civil War. Somaliland seems, for all intents, "neutral" towards present events in the south. I also had to make a few choices to make the graphic understandable. Right now, the TFG, JVA and Ethiopian militaries are operating in alliance. It makes sense to keep them all together. Likewise, I kept Puntland and Ethipia as their own color in the north. Please let me know if you can find any activity for Galmudug remaining as an autonomous force, fighting independently or on the side of one or the other parties, in December. I am willing to be educated and to improve the maps as befitting the situation.
Please provide references/links to any documents if you wish for me to make changes to the map to account for your arguments so I can get more details of lines of control or names of towns under possession/occupation. Also, considering the maps will be changing, possibly a few times a week, please post comments here rather than on the specific image "talk" page, to track your comments over time. Thanks for the feedback! -- Petercorless 17:02, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Updated the "Battle of Baidoa" map to account for the following:
-- Petercorless 16:20, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Last report I saw of specific front lines listed Fidaw and Bur Weyn, which is still up near Buulo Burde. See: Somalia: Ethiopian warplanes bomb Lego, an Islamist base; though this is as of Dec 26, 8:30 am. Though they are indeed on the run, there were also reinforcements coming from Mogadishu. What I have yet to establish is a specific new frontage.
I have not seen a confirmation of withdrawal from Tiyoglow, nor what is particularly occurring in the Juba valley. I'm wondering whether the ICU will send all their troops back to Mogadishu, or if any of them might make a front before Kismayo, or begin any independent raids or last stands at whatever place they happen to occupy presently. There might be pockets of resistance the Ethiopians and government forces bypass on their forward march.
I will to start a new map for the next phase of the campaign, which is likely to be the advance of the TFG/Ethiopian troops to the outskirts of Mogadishu. I am deliberating on whether the map should be more regional, to comprise as far south as Kismayo, and as far north as Beledweyne, or simply keep the same scale/scope to compare over time with the present map, and create a separate "Kismayo" area if that develops into a conflict zone.
At this point, I am calling a 'wrap' on the Battle of Baidoa map, and will come out with 'something new' depending on what news events we see in the coming days, and where the fighting seems to pick up.
Further north, and nationally, I am wondering what is happening in Galgadud. I have no reports of forces coming back through Ballanballe, nor indication that the Ethiopians have pressed on towards Dhuusamareeb yet. -- Petercorless 01:15, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
A lot of new content is coming in as actions are reported, but I'd like to remind everyone that the MoS recommends avoiding one sentence paragraphs and linking to nonexistent articles. It makes the article look poor and confusing. Otherwise, everyone keep up the good work! — Aiden 16:15, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
As we have FORMAL declarations of war from both sides, it cannot be neither conflict, neither original research, because we have sources (see references in article).
War in Somalia (2006-present) is most NPOV for me. As is Battle of Baidoa etc... -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 11:05, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I will suggest the above user to use his or her soapbox for these pro-western rantings and keep the CNN sponsered opinions down to a minimum. How many people has Melwes killed? How many have these court killed, havent they brough peace? Ethiopia has all kinds of other concerns they seem to neglect--like its people. (ha ha My soapbox)-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 19:03, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Condoleeza Rice, a government Secretary, has said that Ugandan troops are in Somalia. The Ugandan government is denying this, because it'd be illegal for them at the moment, but it's coming from a credible source. Since the US looks favourably towards Uganda involvement, would it not be safe to assume that alleged Ugandan troops would be on the side of the Ethiopians in "restoring peace"? -- Permafrost 16:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Islamic threats follow Ethiopian troop advancement in Somalia USA Today -- Petercorless 17:17, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
can we add a source for the statement that Melwes said he had no troops in Somalia?-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 00:54, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
No WAY man, how that is sound nice to believe, Somalia said they saw them all of a sudden a war. YOu know what happened, he was waiting on the full permission from USA. Like this is an African war this is an extension of US control and western interest, like Sudan and their oil, America cannot fight the war so get poor hungry need every cent they can get Ethiopia to fight. Sorry for the soapbox. But We cannot take any politician at face value, look at the Iraq of "they have WMD" -- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 01:21, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
i agree about using "lie" but it is a very upsetting issue.But the ranting of an Ethiopian dictator needs to be put into context, p.s I am not anti-West, i am anti-colonialism and terrorism (governement or otherwise)-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 01:42, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Oh good than you are against Arab colonialism, well said. The Arabs are trying to colonize Somalia through the islamist groups and lie about the aid they recieve as well. The ICU gets help from Arabs, Djibouti, Iranians and Eriteans. See article on ICU on this.
How come the other maps of the conflict have been removed? I'm talking about the ones made by User:Ingoman, they were excellent stuff and it seems very strange now to only have two of them. Now people can't see the rest of the situation and the lead-up to the most recent phase. I think they should be back, maybe if they are taking up too much room they can be put into a gallery box side-by-side, or something like that. -- Hibernian 07:39, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
How is this two separate civil wars? When did the first one ever end? When a civil war ends it means that the factions in the war are no longer fighting either because they've all agreed to peace (which never happened - some factions agreed to peace, not all) or they have all been defeated save for one victorious faction (which also hasn't happened). You even point out that between 1993 and 2004 there were only attempts at reconciliation. Attempts at reconciliation do not mean all the factions were reconciled. This is more of a new phase in the civil war, but it is still the same civil war. The Islamic Courts were just a new faction in an old civil war, just like the Taliban in Afghanistan (and I'm not comparing the policies of either just their rise within a civil war). 72.27.62.58 18:42, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I have been seeing a hiran all over the article, its actually Hiiraan and since my account is named after it, I should know it :) ... I am just informing everyone who is editing the article to use Hiiraan and not Hiran because hiran is incorrect! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hiiraan ( talk • contribs) 08:03, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
No, it's not called "transliterating" when both orthographies already use the Latin alphabet. "Transliterating" is when you represent the sounds of one alphabet in an entirely different alphabet. I again ask if you can show me one other language where there is a precedent for Anglicizing orthographies from another language written in the Latin alphabet. By the very same logic you use, Wikipedia should move the article Juan Valdez to Wan Valdez, because the letter J has a different sound value in Spanish, and this might prove too confusing for some English speakers. There is no difference in the argument you are using here. áˆá‰ƒá‹° ( á‹á‹á‹á‰µ) 15:49, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I realize that this article's subject is the epitome of a Current Event in which "information may change rapidly as the event progresses", but can editors make some effort to stick to inline citation style when adding references? A mixture of embedded numbered links and inline footnotes makes the article look less professional, and ultimately just creates more work, in order to switch one set of references to the other method. Please? Thank you. - Fsotrain 09 19:02, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
The Somalia article uses the term UIC whereas this article uses the term ICU. Should usage be standardized? Otherwise readers will be prone to confusion. I've noticed that this discussion uses both. Mamalujo 19:32, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
The current article says 21 December in the lead and 20 December in the infobox, while at other times it has said 24 December (when Meles admitted that Ethiopia was fighting). Shouldn't the war have started on 19 December, the first day of fighting when the 7-day ultimatum issued by the ICU expired? — ዮሠ| (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 20:38, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
yes it should be when the war physically started not when the US rep in Ethiopia (Aka..) admitted 2 war.--
HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ)
20:43, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello guys, the article kicks ass!! Let's "drive" it towards Featured Article level! -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 22:05, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
It is a very well constructed article , i like those maps. still dont know how ET can afford a war.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 22:51, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Is there any more shortening we can do for this main article by moving sections to the specific pages for aspects of the conflict? Feedback? I did not want to hack away anyone's timeless prose just yet. -- Petercorless 11:48, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
There were a few oddities after an edit of footnotes. I corrected them. -- Petercorless 00:18, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
"A spokesman for the African Union said Ethiopia has every right to defend its sovereignty and nodded Ethiopian military actions in Somalia." - what does nodded mean? Is that supposed to be noted? -- AW 15:41, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Depending on how things go, we might create a "Battle of Jilib" or a "Battle of Kismayo." I am working on a map for the Juba Valley area presently, to show the advances of the ICU in September and October, and the TFG advances from Bardheere and Dinsoor so far. -- Petercorless 21:05, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Looks like it wasn't needed. They abandoned Kismayo without much fighting Akubhai 16:29, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
I just want to thank you guys for reporting on this war which is an important front in the War on Terrorism. I figure that the ICU is just like the Taliban. But it does not get much coverage in the newspaper I read. So please keep up the good work. JRSpriggs 07:42, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
As this article is a candidate for the Release Version, can we try to see if a free image is at all available? I know the chances are slim, what with most photos being under the copyright of news organizations, but a good effort to find free images strengthens a fair use rationale. - Fsotrain 09 02:27, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I suggest splitting the article into two parts, similar to the Iraq War (Invasion + occupation), to:
-- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 17:21, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
It's not PREDICTIVE. It's ONGOING -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 14:41, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Rather than focus on an "occupation," which is speculative, I created a new section for the efforts on disarmament of the militias, which is a readily-citable government initiative. I put it in the "political" section rather than military. -- Petercorless 03:25, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Looking at Image:Somali_land_2007_01_01.png I found a few things to correct. The TFG/Ethiopian forces already took the following areas:
-- Petercorless 08:02, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not so sure this form of map works for insurgent movements. You might instead consider putting some form of explosion symbol where they have conducted attacks. That might also be more appropriate for other insurgency attacks in coming days. Because these are not issues of territorial control or standing forces so much as individual acts of violence. -- Petercorless 21:54, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
How much evidence is needed before Eritrea's involvement and those of foreign jihadists is confirmed? Here are some more recent sources, apart from claims at the Battle of Baidoa [12] [13] [14] — ዮሠ| (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 18:37, January 2, 2007
Hey, why isn't ABC News and all other news networks in the United States, haven't been covering the developments of the War in Somalia, because this is just as important as the issues like Saddam Hussein or Gerald Ford's death. I mean, come on, this war have been going off and on sproadically since 1986 and I have not heard one time that the media mention about this war. The only people I heard discussing about this war is sites like Wikipedia. If you like to send me a comment about why the media is so dishonest and won't cover the war, send it to my talk page, thanks.-- jsalims80 01:24, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Is the map going to be updated showing which areas are controlled by who and where troops currently are? As of right now the latest map shows the ICU retreating to Kiamayo, which we all know has fallen. I can't find anything new on what's going on. Is Ethiopia taking over land? TGF? Clans? Warlords? Puntland? If someone can update it that would be great. 68.192.83.150 03:36, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Please do not link to news.yahoo.com and to articles issued by Reuters (also at alertnet.org) or the Associated Press. They're existing only two or three months and then disappear and are therefore worthless, except for the claim of making an edit. The same problem is with newspaper websites which are using the original newsfeed of Reuters or AP, e.g. Washington Post (partly, can be easily recognised by the AP/Reuters logo near the headline), Forbes, CBS, partly CNN.
Safe links newspapers and other media outlets which usually publish AP/Reuters news without editing but keep them include BBC News (news.bbc.co.uk) Al Jazeera, Jerusalem Post, Independent Online (South Africa). In the cases in which the original title of the news is still available a Google advanced search with the exact phrase might be successfull to find and restore those links. Links to BBC News articles are safe, they stay forever. Links to Washington Post articles which had been published in the print edition are also safe and can be recognised by date and pagenumber near the title and byline of the article! -- 213.155.224.232 15:47, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Who are they, and why are they a reliable source? Do they have qualification beyond being a web site? -- Heptor talk 02:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I think we should need an article covering the ICU insurgency as part of this war. The post-Kismayo part is getting long. Any thoughts? -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 20:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I said ICU insurgency, not occupation. -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 22:16, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, is this war a part of the War on Terror? We have U.S. warships and Ethiopia is in the coalition. -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 20:54, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but that still doesn't necessarily mean that it is included. The attacks could be something else altogether. Including Somalia without sources is Original Research... Sfacets 21:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't believe that the War on Terrorism template should include Somalia yet. The ICU was a group created out of locals wanting security, not concerns outside their own country. The US claiming that there is Al-Queda members in the country has yet to be confirmed. Ironically, the US bombing has probably brought up anti-americanism that didn't exist before, but there is yet to have any confirmed terrorists involved. Mikebloke 17:16, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Since conventional warfare has been over for a week or so now, should we rename this article? I think 2006 War in Somalia is the best option. The war ended by January 1, 2007, and fighting in this year is minimal. The occupation being separate from the actual war, and military operations since 01/01/07 have basically been small operations, limited to minimal guerilla warfare and capturing terrorists and the leaders of the ICU. Perhaps some would consider that enough, but renaming it to 2006-2007 War in Somalia could be done now, since it is highly unlikely conflict will continue for another 359 days into 2008. I think "2006" is all the years we need to write, though. — ዮሠ| (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 22:08, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Because of the length of the article, and also to make the page look consistent, I am going to re-size all the maps to 300px. -- Petercorless 02:03, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I modified the title "Ethiopian occupation" to "Ethiopian military presence". While I don't strongly oppose the notion that it's an occupation, it's not clear from the definition (from Military occupation):
and
There's the question of what is legitimate power, and it can be argued that the TFG is in fact the legitimate government (since it is, and already was before the Ethiopian intervention, the largely internationally recognized one). Further it can be argued that the areas are ruled by the TFG, not the Ethiopian army. I think the question is centered on whether TFG is a "puppet government" instated by Ethiopia, OR, alternatively, whether the Ethiopians, not TFG, has the real power (and I don't think it's only about military power, but whether they actually grab the power and do what they want in spite of what the TFG says). Hence, I think the term "Ethiopian occupation" should be avoided. I have no objections to "the occupation of Mogadishu by the government" or "what is seen as foreign occupation". -- SLi 03:15, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
German Der Spiegel is interpretating the action rather as an action in WaT then an engagement into Somalian policy. Der Spiegel Online, today, English version-- 213.155.224.232 13:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
As I cited on the Battle of Ras Kamboni page, the "third" US strike by "helicopter gunships" near Afmadow was said by a US military official to have been Mil Mi-24 Hinds, not US AC-130s. I am going to revise the maps with that as a credible reading of events, as the Ethiopians had attacked Afmadow the day before with jets. And, seeing how they even struck a Kenyan village instead of Dhobley, I can see how they might have also made a mistaken strike against a civilian target near Afmadow. In anticipation of heading off any controversy I wanted to up-front explain here my reasoning. -- Petercorless 06:39, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Why the article has been moved to a version including a long dash? That makes problems on non-US-english Windows installations. Please move back. -- 213.155.224.232 10:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
There's a different issue, see modified Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dashes)#Dash guidelines for Wikipedia editors and the discussion there. -- 213.155.224.232 11:57, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Apparently the Ethiopians recently acquired 50 T-72 tanks from Yemen, according to Jane's, which I had cited in the article above the table: The Ethiopians have always been tough, mean Please don't blow away facts which I've already cited source for elsewhere in the article, unless you can cite a refutation. -- Petercorless 14:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I removed the Ethiopian MiG-21s, all were phased out of service (info from a Ethiopian from the ACIG forum) I added the sole BMP-2 of the Somali government (captured from the Islamists) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.56.96.232 ( talk) 17:07, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Snipped "The newspaper also accuses Aidid of committing atrocities against civilians in the Bay region." because the article in question was conjecturing Aidid would commit atrocities, not alleging he had done so. While there might be allegations he did commit attrocities in the Somali Civil War, this specific statement was the case of a misinterpretation. -- Petercorless 21:42, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Time for a new map? — Nightst a llion (?) 09:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that the main war is now over, and that any fighting currently taking place is in the context of an insurgancy, there do seem to be attacks in the capital, although the somali government and the Ethiopians may well be covering up the existance of other attacks. -- Boris Johnson VC 16:14, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
What's the situation with them have they announced to join the TFG or remain an autonomous area? -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 16:11, 15 January 2007 (UTC)