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Yesterday I added the following subsection to the article:
Torture and knifing incident
On the 28th of March, a video surfaced, which, shot in the entrance of a public building, has been said by Russian news outlets to depic[t] a trussed and battered Russian soldier being stabbed multiple times in the neck, head and face by a Ukrainian militant, leading to a prolonged death presently followed by the aggressor's enunciation of nationalist slogans. [1] [2] [3] [4] Alexander Bastrykin, head of The Investigative Committee of Russia, stated on the same day, that the matter would be looked into. [5] Russian sources claim that the assailant can, based on the recording, be identified as Ruslan Mironyuk, a denizen of Vinnytsia. [6]
It was soon removed due to unreliability of sources. As far as I am concerned, the opening sentence is well sourced: an article containing the video itself is referenced (which is surely reliable evidence of its existence), and the term 'Russian news outlets' is used towards the potentially biased sources which claim that the recording depicts the murder of a Russian prisoner of war, so that no direct proof of the aggressor's or victim's identity is necessary (see WP:INTEXT). The second sentence is indeed poorly sourced, and so is, perhaps, the third. However, better citations can be found; the revised paragraph would look like this:
Alleged torture and knifing incident
On the 28th of March, a video surfaced, which, shot in the entrance of a public building, has by Russian news outlets been said to depict a trussed and battered Russian soldier being stabbed multiple times in the neck, head and face by a Ukrainian militant, leading to a prolonged death presently followed by the aggressor's enunciation of nationalist slogans. [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] Alexander Bastrykin, head of The Investigative Committee of Russia, stated on the same day, that the matter – characterised as 'the brutal beating and subsequent murder of a Russian prisoner of war' on the committee's website – would be looked into. [8] [12] Russian sources claim that the assailant can, based on the recording, be identified as Ruslan Mironyuk, a denizen of Vinnytsia. [9]
The official website of The Investigative Committee of Russia is a reliable source for the second sentence, and REN TV is a major Russian news outlet which claims that the aggressor has been identified, substantiating the third sentence. Because media of considerable circulation or viewership such as Kommersant and REN TV have described the incident, and because, according The Investigative Committee of Russia, it involves murder of a prisoner of war, [a] it likely deserves a mention in this article. I am open to discussion on whether the updated paragraph may be considered appealing, and what other improvements can be introduced. Maciuf ( talk) 11:10, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
This is another instance where in addition to WP:RS, WP:DUE also applies. Volunteer Marek 18:27, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
On the 28th of March a video surfaced, said by Russian news outlets to depict a trussed and battered Russian soldier being stabbed multiple times in the neck, head and face by a Ukrainian militant, to a fatal result, presently followed by the aggressor's enunciation of nationalist slogans. [13] [8] [14] [15] [16] [17] Alexander Bastrykin, head of The Investigative Committee of Russia, stated on the same day, that the matter would be looked into. [8] [18]
As far as I can see, Newsbreak.gr is not deprecated. Newsbreak.com *is* deprecated, but I don't think there is any connection between the two. Alaexis ¿question? 06:25, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
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There is informational war between Ruussia and Ukraine. Xx236 ( talk) 07:40, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In the section
Mass killings of civilians in Bucha
change the sentence:
Corpses of other killed civilians were left in the road, sometimes mined by Russian soldiers before they retreated.
to:
Corpses of other killed civilians were left on the road, sometimes booby-trapped by Russian soldiers before they retreated. 94.252.22.231 ( talk) 07:40, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
The text now on is "After Ukrainian forces retook the town of Bucha, north of Kyiv, at the end of March, evidence emerged of a massacre in Bucha by Russian troops". There has been a bit of editorial conflict over this line, I guess. We have had "After Ukrainian forces retook the town of Bucha, north of Kyiv, at the end of March, evidence emerged of numerous war crimes committed by Russian forces, including torture and deliberate killings of unarmed civilians", then someone added "including children", and finally it was changed into the present version. I understand that the episode is recent, but I think we can add a bit more content without departing from the sources and from the restrained and brief style of the lead. What about the following text: "evidence emerged of numerous war crimes committed by Russian troops, including torture and deliberate killings of civilians"? I'm now going to change it in this way and let's see if there's enough consensus on this formulation or on another, different one. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 02:22, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
:::::Actually, I've just noticed that the allegation by the self-proclaimed republic of Donetsk has been confirmed by the HRMMU with regard to a missile with cluster munitions intercepted over the centre of Donetsk killing 20 civilians. So basically it was not an indiscriminate attack - the missile was intercepted - and the IHL issue is with cluster munitions; and it's not an allegation by involved parties, it is documented by an independent body. We should rephrase that sentence.
Gitz (
talk) (
contribs)
13:25, 5 April 2022 (UTC) (victims were confirmed, not cluster munitions)
Whoever has a subscriptions, please quote the relevant text from the paywalled Times article (whose first three paragraphs can be publicly read here) which support the text in this article. More specifically, these are the WP phrases this source is supposed to support:
Thank you. Anonimu ( talk) 10:19, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
User:Anonimu, who previously tried to remove well sourced information from this article or downplay it by sprinkling various equivalents of "alleged" through out, now tagged - probably because they're under 1RR restriction which they already violated - "bad ref" tags throughout the article, claiming that sources are being misrepresented.
Taken together this seems like the kind of WP:NOTHERE edits that involve trying to WP:GAME rules and which probably warrant a topic ban from this (and possibly related) articles, particularly since the user has been warned/sanctioned/blocked exactly for this behavior before (even if it was long ago - they seemed to have reactivated in this topic area with the invasion of Ukraine) [8]. Volunteer Marek 22:48, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
[[[ ... unchanged paragraphs omitted ... ]]]
On 13 March, on the way to Irpen, the American journalist Brent Reno, who was collecting materials for the Time project about refugees, came under fire and was killed. [1] Italian correspondent Annalisa Camilli told Associated Press that photojournalist Juan Arredondo, a colleague of the deceased whom she interviewed in a Kiev hospital, reported that he and Renaud were filming refugees fleeing from this area. According to Arredondo, their car came under fire as they approached the Russian checkpoint and the shooting did not stop even when the driver turned around. Arredondo himself, while stopping at a roadblock, was wounded in the lower back. At the same time, in her article in the Internazionale magazine , Camilli pointed out that Daniil Shapovalov, a hospital doctor, gave false information, saying that Renault “got a bullet in the back of the head and died instantly,” and also stressed that although the Ukrainian side accused the Russian side of the shooting, the however, “the further development of what happened is not yet clear”, since the shelling came from the side opposite to the checkpoint. [2] [3]
[[[ ... unchanged paragraphs omitted ... ]]]
On 13 March, the American filmmaker Brent Renaud was killed by weapons fire near Kyiv. Italian correspondent Annalisa Camilli told Associated Press that photojournalist Juan Arredondo, a colleague of the deceased whom she interviewed in a Kiev hospital, reported that he and Renaud were filming refugees fleeing from this area. According to Arredondo, their car came under fire as they approached the Russian checkpoint and the shooting did not stop even when the driver turned around. Arredondo himself, while stopping at a roadblock, was wounded in the lower back. [4] [5] [6] 74.137.133.109 ( talk) 15:45, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
Question, why is the first sentence removed (stating that Renaud was killed) removed? ProcrastinatingReader ( talk) 15:53, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
toOn 13 March, on the way to Irpen, the American journalist Brent Reno, who was collecting materials for the Time project about refugees, came under fire and was killed.
I merely linked his article, corrected the spelling of his name, changed "journalist" to "filmmaker" and removed the unverified claims that Renaud was traveling specifically to Irpin and that we was doing work to "the Time project," from the first sentence. 74.137.133.109 ( talk) 16:22, 5 April 2022 (UTC)On 13 March, the American filmmaker Brent Renaud was killed by weapons fire near Kyiv.
References
Hello @ Anonimu, I see that you have just removed some contents from the "Bucha massacre" section, here, but I don't understand the object: "this does not even refer to Bucha, but a village nearby". If the text is well sourced, then I think that the location is a minor issue: we could simply write "in the area of Bucha" and everything would be perfectly correct, am I right? Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 20:26, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
It was not removed, just moved without any change towards the end of the section, to have a logical structure: Bucha (the titular location), then nearby locations (Zabuchchya and Vozel). Anonimu ( talk) 21:05, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
The 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine article includes the following text:
Domestic universal jurisdiction criminal proceedings investigating potential war crimes committed by Russian forces in Ukraine have been opened in countries including Lithuania, Estonia, Germany, Poland, Slovakia, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland. [1] [2] [3] [4]
In Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine § Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 April 2022, IP user 31.209.52.211 added that France, Norway, and Ukraine can also be included in this list giving sources for each:
The 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine article is probably too broad a topic to cover this information in much detail but it may be appropriate here if it's not already mentioned somewhere. -- N8wilson 13:31, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
References
It just opens now with too much "extensive writing". The lead (British English: "lede") should be brief, followed by maybe two manageable (shorter) paragraphs. Three max.
The rest of the writing (now in the far-too long opening) should be in titled / sub-titled "Sections "below this. I see no need to delete anything.
Also, 98% of Wikipedia articles have something in the upper-right-TOP area-- Either 1) an Infobox, 2) a topic-related template ("expanded", not "collapsed") or at the very least, 3) a large picture.
Since 98% of Wikipedia articles have one of these (in the upper-right-TOP of article), this article looks odd without it. And un-Wikipedia-like in appearance.
Chesapeake77 ( talk) 04:00, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
@ Anonimu: Re restoration of this text [15]. The source given is this one: [16]. There is absolutely NOTHING in that source about sexual violence, much less castration. If there is SOME OTHER source which discusses this maybe we can add it. But for now, please don't restore text which appears to straight up misrepresent contents of a source. Volunteer Marek 09:34, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
Please stop restoring text and falsely claiming that it's backed by a source when it clearly isn't. Volunteer Marek 09:38, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
Above comment meant for @ Gitz6666:. Volunteer Marek 09:40, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
The Monitoring Mission had received allegations of sexual violence committed by Russian armed forces, which it had not yet been able to fully verify, as well as an allegation against the Ukrainian forces, which allegedly had threaten a Russian prisoner of war with castration on camera. According to the Monitoring Mission binding stripped persons to poles or trees and beating them in public could also amount to sexual violence by Ukrainian police officers and members of the territorial defence.
Cite error: There are <ref group=lower-alpha>
tags or {{efn}}
templates on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=lower-alpha}}
template or {{notelist}}
template (see the
help page).
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
Yesterday I added the following subsection to the article:
Torture and knifing incident
On the 28th of March, a video surfaced, which, shot in the entrance of a public building, has been said by Russian news outlets to depic[t] a trussed and battered Russian soldier being stabbed multiple times in the neck, head and face by a Ukrainian militant, leading to a prolonged death presently followed by the aggressor's enunciation of nationalist slogans. [1] [2] [3] [4] Alexander Bastrykin, head of The Investigative Committee of Russia, stated on the same day, that the matter would be looked into. [5] Russian sources claim that the assailant can, based on the recording, be identified as Ruslan Mironyuk, a denizen of Vinnytsia. [6]
It was soon removed due to unreliability of sources. As far as I am concerned, the opening sentence is well sourced: an article containing the video itself is referenced (which is surely reliable evidence of its existence), and the term 'Russian news outlets' is used towards the potentially biased sources which claim that the recording depicts the murder of a Russian prisoner of war, so that no direct proof of the aggressor's or victim's identity is necessary (see WP:INTEXT). The second sentence is indeed poorly sourced, and so is, perhaps, the third. However, better citations can be found; the revised paragraph would look like this:
Alleged torture and knifing incident
On the 28th of March, a video surfaced, which, shot in the entrance of a public building, has by Russian news outlets been said to depict a trussed and battered Russian soldier being stabbed multiple times in the neck, head and face by a Ukrainian militant, leading to a prolonged death presently followed by the aggressor's enunciation of nationalist slogans. [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] Alexander Bastrykin, head of The Investigative Committee of Russia, stated on the same day, that the matter – characterised as 'the brutal beating and subsequent murder of a Russian prisoner of war' on the committee's website – would be looked into. [8] [12] Russian sources claim that the assailant can, based on the recording, be identified as Ruslan Mironyuk, a denizen of Vinnytsia. [9]
The official website of The Investigative Committee of Russia is a reliable source for the second sentence, and REN TV is a major Russian news outlet which claims that the aggressor has been identified, substantiating the third sentence. Because media of considerable circulation or viewership such as Kommersant and REN TV have described the incident, and because, according The Investigative Committee of Russia, it involves murder of a prisoner of war, [a] it likely deserves a mention in this article. I am open to discussion on whether the updated paragraph may be considered appealing, and what other improvements can be introduced. Maciuf ( talk) 11:10, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
This is another instance where in addition to WP:RS, WP:DUE also applies. Volunteer Marek 18:27, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
On the 28th of March a video surfaced, said by Russian news outlets to depict a trussed and battered Russian soldier being stabbed multiple times in the neck, head and face by a Ukrainian militant, to a fatal result, presently followed by the aggressor's enunciation of nationalist slogans. [13] [8] [14] [15] [16] [17] Alexander Bastrykin, head of The Investigative Committee of Russia, stated on the same day, that the matter would be looked into. [8] [18]
As far as I can see, Newsbreak.gr is not deprecated. Newsbreak.com *is* deprecated, but I don't think there is any connection between the two. Alaexis ¿question? 06:25, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (
link) Includes the drastic video footage.
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (
link)
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (
link)
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (
link)
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (
link) Includes the drastic video footage.
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (
link)
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (
link)
{{
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: CS1 maint: url-status (
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{{
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: CS1 maint: url-status (
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There is informational war between Ruussia and Ukraine. Xx236 ( talk) 07:40, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In the section
Mass killings of civilians in Bucha
change the sentence:
Corpses of other killed civilians were left in the road, sometimes mined by Russian soldiers before they retreated.
to:
Corpses of other killed civilians were left on the road, sometimes booby-trapped by Russian soldiers before they retreated. 94.252.22.231 ( talk) 07:40, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
The text now on is "After Ukrainian forces retook the town of Bucha, north of Kyiv, at the end of March, evidence emerged of a massacre in Bucha by Russian troops". There has been a bit of editorial conflict over this line, I guess. We have had "After Ukrainian forces retook the town of Bucha, north of Kyiv, at the end of March, evidence emerged of numerous war crimes committed by Russian forces, including torture and deliberate killings of unarmed civilians", then someone added "including children", and finally it was changed into the present version. I understand that the episode is recent, but I think we can add a bit more content without departing from the sources and from the restrained and brief style of the lead. What about the following text: "evidence emerged of numerous war crimes committed by Russian troops, including torture and deliberate killings of civilians"? I'm now going to change it in this way and let's see if there's enough consensus on this formulation or on another, different one. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 02:22, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
:::::Actually, I've just noticed that the allegation by the self-proclaimed republic of Donetsk has been confirmed by the HRMMU with regard to a missile with cluster munitions intercepted over the centre of Donetsk killing 20 civilians. So basically it was not an indiscriminate attack - the missile was intercepted - and the IHL issue is with cluster munitions; and it's not an allegation by involved parties, it is documented by an independent body. We should rephrase that sentence.
Gitz (
talk) (
contribs)
13:25, 5 April 2022 (UTC) (victims were confirmed, not cluster munitions)
Whoever has a subscriptions, please quote the relevant text from the paywalled Times article (whose first three paragraphs can be publicly read here) which support the text in this article. More specifically, these are the WP phrases this source is supposed to support:
Thank you. Anonimu ( talk) 10:19, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
User:Anonimu, who previously tried to remove well sourced information from this article or downplay it by sprinkling various equivalents of "alleged" through out, now tagged - probably because they're under 1RR restriction which they already violated - "bad ref" tags throughout the article, claiming that sources are being misrepresented.
Taken together this seems like the kind of WP:NOTHERE edits that involve trying to WP:GAME rules and which probably warrant a topic ban from this (and possibly related) articles, particularly since the user has been warned/sanctioned/blocked exactly for this behavior before (even if it was long ago - they seemed to have reactivated in this topic area with the invasion of Ukraine) [8]. Volunteer Marek 22:48, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
[[[ ... unchanged paragraphs omitted ... ]]]
On 13 March, on the way to Irpen, the American journalist Brent Reno, who was collecting materials for the Time project about refugees, came under fire and was killed. [1] Italian correspondent Annalisa Camilli told Associated Press that photojournalist Juan Arredondo, a colleague of the deceased whom she interviewed in a Kiev hospital, reported that he and Renaud were filming refugees fleeing from this area. According to Arredondo, their car came under fire as they approached the Russian checkpoint and the shooting did not stop even when the driver turned around. Arredondo himself, while stopping at a roadblock, was wounded in the lower back. At the same time, in her article in the Internazionale magazine , Camilli pointed out that Daniil Shapovalov, a hospital doctor, gave false information, saying that Renault “got a bullet in the back of the head and died instantly,” and also stressed that although the Ukrainian side accused the Russian side of the shooting, the however, “the further development of what happened is not yet clear”, since the shelling came from the side opposite to the checkpoint. [2] [3]
[[[ ... unchanged paragraphs omitted ... ]]]
On 13 March, the American filmmaker Brent Renaud was killed by weapons fire near Kyiv. Italian correspondent Annalisa Camilli told Associated Press that photojournalist Juan Arredondo, a colleague of the deceased whom she interviewed in a Kiev hospital, reported that he and Renaud were filming refugees fleeing from this area. According to Arredondo, their car came under fire as they approached the Russian checkpoint and the shooting did not stop even when the driver turned around. Arredondo himself, while stopping at a roadblock, was wounded in the lower back. [4] [5] [6] 74.137.133.109 ( talk) 15:45, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
Question, why is the first sentence removed (stating that Renaud was killed) removed? ProcrastinatingReader ( talk) 15:53, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
toOn 13 March, on the way to Irpen, the American journalist Brent Reno, who was collecting materials for the Time project about refugees, came under fire and was killed.
I merely linked his article, corrected the spelling of his name, changed "journalist" to "filmmaker" and removed the unverified claims that Renaud was traveling specifically to Irpin and that we was doing work to "the Time project," from the first sentence. 74.137.133.109 ( talk) 16:22, 5 April 2022 (UTC)On 13 March, the American filmmaker Brent Renaud was killed by weapons fire near Kyiv.
References
Hello @ Anonimu, I see that you have just removed some contents from the "Bucha massacre" section, here, but I don't understand the object: "this does not even refer to Bucha, but a village nearby". If the text is well sourced, then I think that the location is a minor issue: we could simply write "in the area of Bucha" and everything would be perfectly correct, am I right? Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 20:26, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
It was not removed, just moved without any change towards the end of the section, to have a logical structure: Bucha (the titular location), then nearby locations (Zabuchchya and Vozel). Anonimu ( talk) 21:05, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
The 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine article includes the following text:
Domestic universal jurisdiction criminal proceedings investigating potential war crimes committed by Russian forces in Ukraine have been opened in countries including Lithuania, Estonia, Germany, Poland, Slovakia, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland. [1] [2] [3] [4]
In Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine § Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 April 2022, IP user 31.209.52.211 added that France, Norway, and Ukraine can also be included in this list giving sources for each:
The 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine article is probably too broad a topic to cover this information in much detail but it may be appropriate here if it's not already mentioned somewhere. -- N8wilson 13:31, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
References
It just opens now with too much "extensive writing". The lead (British English: "lede") should be brief, followed by maybe two manageable (shorter) paragraphs. Three max.
The rest of the writing (now in the far-too long opening) should be in titled / sub-titled "Sections "below this. I see no need to delete anything.
Also, 98% of Wikipedia articles have something in the upper-right-TOP area-- Either 1) an Infobox, 2) a topic-related template ("expanded", not "collapsed") or at the very least, 3) a large picture.
Since 98% of Wikipedia articles have one of these (in the upper-right-TOP of article), this article looks odd without it. And un-Wikipedia-like in appearance.
Chesapeake77 ( talk) 04:00, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
@ Anonimu: Re restoration of this text [15]. The source given is this one: [16]. There is absolutely NOTHING in that source about sexual violence, much less castration. If there is SOME OTHER source which discusses this maybe we can add it. But for now, please don't restore text which appears to straight up misrepresent contents of a source. Volunteer Marek 09:34, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
Please stop restoring text and falsely claiming that it's backed by a source when it clearly isn't. Volunteer Marek 09:38, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
Above comment meant for @ Gitz6666:. Volunteer Marek 09:40, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
The Monitoring Mission had received allegations of sexual violence committed by Russian armed forces, which it had not yet been able to fully verify, as well as an allegation against the Ukrainian forces, which allegedly had threaten a Russian prisoner of war with castration on camera. According to the Monitoring Mission binding stripped persons to poles or trees and beating them in public could also amount to sexual violence by Ukrainian police officers and members of the territorial defence.
Cite error: There are <ref group=lower-alpha>
tags or {{efn}}
templates on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=lower-alpha}}
template or {{notelist}}
template (see the
help page).