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Really now, James-- how can you mention the Vinland Map without noting McCrone's declaration of forgery has been discredited? I can only conclude you think criticisms of McCrone's work is something done by Shroudies alone. But the vindication of the Vinland Map was done by top scientists in the field and published in respected peer journals. I'll be back to correct this oversight. JDG 16:54, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Mr. Lane apparently believes that the words "confiscated" and "unwelcome conclusions", without citing any source, constitutes an article written from a neutral point of view. You say "confiscated" as if 1) the slides "belonged" to Dr. McCrone, and not the scientific team as a whole, and 2) that the STURP team used Storm Troopers to wrest the slides from McCrone's kung-fu grip. You use the phrase "unwelcome conclusions" to suggest that the STURP team had an agenda to prove the Shroud of Turin was the shroud of Jesus' before any tests were ever done, and that our hero the Doctor saved us from these fanatics. These words are loaded words, and I will not accept this phrasing without outside sources. If you do not come up with a source to back these statements, I will change this wording again (though I'm expecting that Nickells and McCrone will be the sources used). I don't necessarily have a problem with the phrase used [though I don't personally agree with it, this opinion is out there, and certainly needs to be in an article on Dr. McCrone], just make sure that the reader knows what the source is. In addition, opposing views absolutely need to be placed in opposition to counter-opinions when those opinions exist. This is a controversial subject, as mentioned above, and, despite Mr. Lane's assertions that he "worded [this article] carefully", I was disgusted at the one-sidedness which was portrayed in the "Shroud of Turin" section (the Vinland Map section, while it needs improvement, was not as bad as the Shroud of Turin section).
If this counter-balance isn't achieved, I will fix it myself. For example, from Dr. Heller's point of view, it was McCrone who would not let him look at the slides which may or may not have contained "blood" on it; if any "confiscating" went on by the leadership of the STURP team, it was, according to this viewpoint, because McCrone wouldn't let Heller and Adler look at the slides which had been given to McCrone for study, slides which had been promised to Heller by Jackson and Rogers after McCrone was done with them.
Before concluding, I just want to reiterate that Mr. Lane wrote this article without any cites. I noticed that he managed to put some citing in after I made changes to his article which, in my opinion, was written from a non-neutral point of view. He doesn't even cite McCrone's findings of paint on the Shroud, a fact that I find very disturbing. As a matter of fact, as someone who is new to the Wikipedia, I would like feedback on better ways to quote sources, since footnotes apparently are discouraged. Do not ruin this great web site, which I am now absolutely fascinated by, with agendas. - T.J. Swartz
STURP representatives paid a surprise visit to McCrone's lab to confiscate his samples, then gave them to two late additions to STURP, John Heller and Alan Adler, neither of whom was a forensic serologist or a pigment expert. The pair soon proclaimed they had "identified the presence of blood." However, at the 1983 conference of the prestigious International Association for Identification, forensic analyst John E Fischer explained how results similar to theirs could be obtained from tempera paint.
While I don't have time right now to dispute every subject you brought up which I disagree with, I will start with this one: You say that the word "confiscate" came from an article in the "Skeptical Inquirer" by Joe Nickell. Could we not, then, come to an agreement by putting the word "confiscate" in quotes, at least acknowledging that this wording is based in opinion, and then maybe citing it?
While I understand that most articles I have read so far do not contain citations, or not very many, that does not mean that we should be lazy in citing sources. Citations only make articles more sound. This is what Wikipedia has to say on the subject:
Cite sources (citation): provide references that help the reader to check the veracity of the article and to find more information. Good citations are critical to help make Wikipedia trusted and useful.
If you consult an external source while writing an article, citing it is basic intellectual honesty. More than that, you should actively search for authoritative references to cite. If you are writing from your own knowledge, then you should know enough to identify good references that the reader can consult on the subject—you won't be around forever to answer questions. (Also, this forces you to check your facts, and you might find that you don't know everything.) The main point is to help the reader—cite whatever you think will be most helpful.
This applies when writing about opinions, as well—beware the temptation to write weasel phrases like, "Some people say..." Who said it, and where and when? (Remember that Wikipedia is not for your opinions or for original research.)'
I am not advocating that every sentence needs to have a citation after it. That is what I believe these Talk pages should be for, to discuss where they might be helpful (at least that should be one purpose of the Talk pages).
If the phrasing appears opinionated, cite where you got the information; if other, differing opinions exist, counterbalance the statement by pointing out that there is disagreement on this particular subject. However, I think that this sometimes adds to needless clutter to an article, which is why I deleted the whole phrase to begin with. It seems a bit petty to have the internal struggles of STURP in a Wikipedia article on Dr. McCrone. After all, as far as I know, the slides which were given to Dr. McCrone to analyze were not given to him to keep. Joe Nickell says they were confiscated, Raymond Rogers (or was it Jackson?) says that they went to Chicago to get the slides they had given to him because he was not going to be able to show up at their next conference on the Shroud (I'm relaying this information from memory, so forgive any details I might have left out). Unless you have an article or some other source which says that the slides were not rightfully taken from Dr. McCrone ("confiscated", in this context, implies, to me, that the object in question was taken from the subject without their consent and without legitimate authorization), we have to assume that they "belonged" to the scientific team as a whole. If requests were made to Dr. McCrone for the slides, as the opposing opinion claims, and he would not provide them, why would it be out of line for Rogers and Jackson to go to Chicago and "confiscate" them for their conference? Is that really "confiscating"? If I give you something to analyze, and you don't give it back, and then I go and get it from you, is that "confiscating"? Besides, who knows who is right? And does it really matter? Don't these seem like petty questions? That is my problem with the disputed sentence.
According to your bio, you are an attorney, Mr. Lane; you, of all people, should know the power of words, and that you need to be careful and truthful in employing them. The way it stands right now, I simply don't like what the disputed pharse is insinuating, which is that the STURP team did not have a right to take back the slides, and that they wanted the slides back for the sole reason that they needed to cover up what Dr. McCrone had found. There simply is no agreement on that; in addition, I don't think that the word "confiscating" accurately reflects all opinions on the subject. What I suggest is this; the phrase should go. In the alternative, put quotes around "confiscating", cite the source, and cite Rogers or Jackson, or anyone else who would probably take umbrage at your choice of words, from their own writings. We are not writing a closing argument here; this is supposed to be an encyclopedia article. Again, either the phrase should be corrected or eliminated, in my opinion.
This is what I believe it means to write an article from a neutral point of view. Don't say "I thought the point was obvious, therefore, I didn't cite it", because other people coming to this page will not know of its "obviousness". THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT OF CITATIONS. I will write more later on my supposed "anti-McCrone" opinions, which, of course, aren't my "opinions", but actual quotes from McCrone's own book (with regards, anyways, to the contents of the letters which criticized him). Actually, I would like feedback on a better way to cite them, since the quotes come from McCrone's writings, and not Heller's. - T.J. Swartz
Since Mr. Lane has not attempted to edit this article in a way that is agreeable to both sides of the argument, I have taken the easier route stated above and eliminated the disputed sentence. After further consideration, I just don't feel that the sentence belongs in an encyclopaedia article. I feel that this edit makes the aritcle more "scholarly" and neutral without any fights over counter-balancing the statement. Any future attempts to edit this article to its previous form will be edited back. - T.J. Swartz
Finally, I've reached an agreement with you. As noted above, I had a problem (at least, in my mind) of putting the quotations from McCrone's book in the article. While these quotes come from Dr. McCrone's book Judgment Day For the Shroud of Turin, they have the potential for being very prejudicial for the neutral reader. But, the problem I was facing was that the preceding sentence, "drummed out", was in quotes. I didn't know how to best approach the addition, nor do I know how as of right now. My opinion on the sentence:
I DO NOT LIKE IT
What I do like, is feedback. In addition, I'm thinking of doing a seperate article on the "blood" on the Shroud. I'm going to call it "Shroud of Turin: Blood", and I would really like it if Mr. Lane backed me, and, for lack of a better term, "vetted" me on this article (Since he is the only one that really reads this article, along with me). While I am treating this as if there are only two individuals in the world who care about this, I am desperate for ANYONE'S feedback.
About this sentence: "I'm still not clear on these quotations you added. The way the paragraph reads now, any reader would conclude that the terms like "pontifications" were used by Dr. Heller, not by Dr. McCrone. If that's not accurate, it needs to be rewritten." As I have noted above, these are not words used by Dr. Heller, but come from Dr. McCrone's book. My logic goes like this: In Dr. Heller's book, "Report on the Shroud of Turin", he says that Dr. McCrone had "submitted two papers for peer review...The reviews [of the STURP team] were, as always, rigorous, and they pulled no punches. McCrone, feeling insulted, resigned" (Heller, p. 184). In Dr. McCrone's book, he speaks of the contents of the letter (the reviews), which I have in the article. How do I cite the sentence? Sorry, but I'm not on Law Review. I definitely need help in this area. - T.J. Swartz
Why are not the results of the carbon 14 tests within this article? If I remember correctly the shroud was dated at around 1400. Kazuba ( talk) 18:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
This Talk page has a template saying "Walter McCrone has been listed as a level-5 vital article in People, Social scientists. If you can improve it, please do. This article has been rated as Start-Class."
Why is that? Was he social scientist too? -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 15:47, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Walter McCrone article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Really now, James-- how can you mention the Vinland Map without noting McCrone's declaration of forgery has been discredited? I can only conclude you think criticisms of McCrone's work is something done by Shroudies alone. But the vindication of the Vinland Map was done by top scientists in the field and published in respected peer journals. I'll be back to correct this oversight. JDG 16:54, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Mr. Lane apparently believes that the words "confiscated" and "unwelcome conclusions", without citing any source, constitutes an article written from a neutral point of view. You say "confiscated" as if 1) the slides "belonged" to Dr. McCrone, and not the scientific team as a whole, and 2) that the STURP team used Storm Troopers to wrest the slides from McCrone's kung-fu grip. You use the phrase "unwelcome conclusions" to suggest that the STURP team had an agenda to prove the Shroud of Turin was the shroud of Jesus' before any tests were ever done, and that our hero the Doctor saved us from these fanatics. These words are loaded words, and I will not accept this phrasing without outside sources. If you do not come up with a source to back these statements, I will change this wording again (though I'm expecting that Nickells and McCrone will be the sources used). I don't necessarily have a problem with the phrase used [though I don't personally agree with it, this opinion is out there, and certainly needs to be in an article on Dr. McCrone], just make sure that the reader knows what the source is. In addition, opposing views absolutely need to be placed in opposition to counter-opinions when those opinions exist. This is a controversial subject, as mentioned above, and, despite Mr. Lane's assertions that he "worded [this article] carefully", I was disgusted at the one-sidedness which was portrayed in the "Shroud of Turin" section (the Vinland Map section, while it needs improvement, was not as bad as the Shroud of Turin section).
If this counter-balance isn't achieved, I will fix it myself. For example, from Dr. Heller's point of view, it was McCrone who would not let him look at the slides which may or may not have contained "blood" on it; if any "confiscating" went on by the leadership of the STURP team, it was, according to this viewpoint, because McCrone wouldn't let Heller and Adler look at the slides which had been given to McCrone for study, slides which had been promised to Heller by Jackson and Rogers after McCrone was done with them.
Before concluding, I just want to reiterate that Mr. Lane wrote this article without any cites. I noticed that he managed to put some citing in after I made changes to his article which, in my opinion, was written from a non-neutral point of view. He doesn't even cite McCrone's findings of paint on the Shroud, a fact that I find very disturbing. As a matter of fact, as someone who is new to the Wikipedia, I would like feedback on better ways to quote sources, since footnotes apparently are discouraged. Do not ruin this great web site, which I am now absolutely fascinated by, with agendas. - T.J. Swartz
STURP representatives paid a surprise visit to McCrone's lab to confiscate his samples, then gave them to two late additions to STURP, John Heller and Alan Adler, neither of whom was a forensic serologist or a pigment expert. The pair soon proclaimed they had "identified the presence of blood." However, at the 1983 conference of the prestigious International Association for Identification, forensic analyst John E Fischer explained how results similar to theirs could be obtained from tempera paint.
While I don't have time right now to dispute every subject you brought up which I disagree with, I will start with this one: You say that the word "confiscate" came from an article in the "Skeptical Inquirer" by Joe Nickell. Could we not, then, come to an agreement by putting the word "confiscate" in quotes, at least acknowledging that this wording is based in opinion, and then maybe citing it?
While I understand that most articles I have read so far do not contain citations, or not very many, that does not mean that we should be lazy in citing sources. Citations only make articles more sound. This is what Wikipedia has to say on the subject:
Cite sources (citation): provide references that help the reader to check the veracity of the article and to find more information. Good citations are critical to help make Wikipedia trusted and useful.
If you consult an external source while writing an article, citing it is basic intellectual honesty. More than that, you should actively search for authoritative references to cite. If you are writing from your own knowledge, then you should know enough to identify good references that the reader can consult on the subject—you won't be around forever to answer questions. (Also, this forces you to check your facts, and you might find that you don't know everything.) The main point is to help the reader—cite whatever you think will be most helpful.
This applies when writing about opinions, as well—beware the temptation to write weasel phrases like, "Some people say..." Who said it, and where and when? (Remember that Wikipedia is not for your opinions or for original research.)'
I am not advocating that every sentence needs to have a citation after it. That is what I believe these Talk pages should be for, to discuss where they might be helpful (at least that should be one purpose of the Talk pages).
If the phrasing appears opinionated, cite where you got the information; if other, differing opinions exist, counterbalance the statement by pointing out that there is disagreement on this particular subject. However, I think that this sometimes adds to needless clutter to an article, which is why I deleted the whole phrase to begin with. It seems a bit petty to have the internal struggles of STURP in a Wikipedia article on Dr. McCrone. After all, as far as I know, the slides which were given to Dr. McCrone to analyze were not given to him to keep. Joe Nickell says they were confiscated, Raymond Rogers (or was it Jackson?) says that they went to Chicago to get the slides they had given to him because he was not going to be able to show up at their next conference on the Shroud (I'm relaying this information from memory, so forgive any details I might have left out). Unless you have an article or some other source which says that the slides were not rightfully taken from Dr. McCrone ("confiscated", in this context, implies, to me, that the object in question was taken from the subject without their consent and without legitimate authorization), we have to assume that they "belonged" to the scientific team as a whole. If requests were made to Dr. McCrone for the slides, as the opposing opinion claims, and he would not provide them, why would it be out of line for Rogers and Jackson to go to Chicago and "confiscate" them for their conference? Is that really "confiscating"? If I give you something to analyze, and you don't give it back, and then I go and get it from you, is that "confiscating"? Besides, who knows who is right? And does it really matter? Don't these seem like petty questions? That is my problem with the disputed sentence.
According to your bio, you are an attorney, Mr. Lane; you, of all people, should know the power of words, and that you need to be careful and truthful in employing them. The way it stands right now, I simply don't like what the disputed pharse is insinuating, which is that the STURP team did not have a right to take back the slides, and that they wanted the slides back for the sole reason that they needed to cover up what Dr. McCrone had found. There simply is no agreement on that; in addition, I don't think that the word "confiscating" accurately reflects all opinions on the subject. What I suggest is this; the phrase should go. In the alternative, put quotes around "confiscating", cite the source, and cite Rogers or Jackson, or anyone else who would probably take umbrage at your choice of words, from their own writings. We are not writing a closing argument here; this is supposed to be an encyclopedia article. Again, either the phrase should be corrected or eliminated, in my opinion.
This is what I believe it means to write an article from a neutral point of view. Don't say "I thought the point was obvious, therefore, I didn't cite it", because other people coming to this page will not know of its "obviousness". THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT OF CITATIONS. I will write more later on my supposed "anti-McCrone" opinions, which, of course, aren't my "opinions", but actual quotes from McCrone's own book (with regards, anyways, to the contents of the letters which criticized him). Actually, I would like feedback on a better way to cite them, since the quotes come from McCrone's writings, and not Heller's. - T.J. Swartz
Since Mr. Lane has not attempted to edit this article in a way that is agreeable to both sides of the argument, I have taken the easier route stated above and eliminated the disputed sentence. After further consideration, I just don't feel that the sentence belongs in an encyclopaedia article. I feel that this edit makes the aritcle more "scholarly" and neutral without any fights over counter-balancing the statement. Any future attempts to edit this article to its previous form will be edited back. - T.J. Swartz
Finally, I've reached an agreement with you. As noted above, I had a problem (at least, in my mind) of putting the quotations from McCrone's book in the article. While these quotes come from Dr. McCrone's book Judgment Day For the Shroud of Turin, they have the potential for being very prejudicial for the neutral reader. But, the problem I was facing was that the preceding sentence, "drummed out", was in quotes. I didn't know how to best approach the addition, nor do I know how as of right now. My opinion on the sentence:
I DO NOT LIKE IT
What I do like, is feedback. In addition, I'm thinking of doing a seperate article on the "blood" on the Shroud. I'm going to call it "Shroud of Turin: Blood", and I would really like it if Mr. Lane backed me, and, for lack of a better term, "vetted" me on this article (Since he is the only one that really reads this article, along with me). While I am treating this as if there are only two individuals in the world who care about this, I am desperate for ANYONE'S feedback.
About this sentence: "I'm still not clear on these quotations you added. The way the paragraph reads now, any reader would conclude that the terms like "pontifications" were used by Dr. Heller, not by Dr. McCrone. If that's not accurate, it needs to be rewritten." As I have noted above, these are not words used by Dr. Heller, but come from Dr. McCrone's book. My logic goes like this: In Dr. Heller's book, "Report on the Shroud of Turin", he says that Dr. McCrone had "submitted two papers for peer review...The reviews [of the STURP team] were, as always, rigorous, and they pulled no punches. McCrone, feeling insulted, resigned" (Heller, p. 184). In Dr. McCrone's book, he speaks of the contents of the letter (the reviews), which I have in the article. How do I cite the sentence? Sorry, but I'm not on Law Review. I definitely need help in this area. - T.J. Swartz
Why are not the results of the carbon 14 tests within this article? If I remember correctly the shroud was dated at around 1400. Kazuba ( talk) 18:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
This Talk page has a template saying "Walter McCrone has been listed as a level-5 vital article in People, Social scientists. If you can improve it, please do. This article has been rated as Start-Class."
Why is that? Was he social scientist too? -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 15:47, 18 May 2020 (UTC)