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Picard language states it is spoken in much the same areas Walloon language is. Is this the same language, or another regional Romance language? — Jor (Talk) 16:59, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
This article stated the ISO codes for Walloon were "wa" and "wln", respectively. However, no source I could find even mentions Walloon, or any of these codes. Could someone cite a source for them? Thanks. — Timwi 23:05, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I think this paragraph may be wrong:
A borrowing from Germanic languages: the construction Cwè çki c' est di ça po ene fleur (what is this flower?) can be compared word to word to German Was ist das für eine Blume? or Dutch Wat is dat voor een bloem?.
For starters, both the Dutch and the German quotes mean something like "What sort of flower is that". And the french (at least Belgian French) has a similar construction: Qu'est-ce que c'est (que ça) comme (un) fleur? So I wouldn't rush to a conclusion that this is a Germanic borrowing. 88.111.151.181 17:18, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
It has been proposed that Languages of Oïl be renamed and moved to Langues d'Oïl. Comments and votes on Talk:Languages of Oïl, please, if you're interested. Man vyi 09:09, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
In France, the language has been made uniform over the last few hundred years. This has been an imposed uniformity around Parisian French, enforced so much in the schools to the extent that all dialects almost died out, surviving pretty much uniquely in family groups or more culturally-isolated or -homogeneous communities. The recent acknowledgement of their existence by the French Government is therefore quite a change in policy.
The principle that all French speakers are part of the same culture (and at a stretch, part of the same nation) is still in the background, and a subject dear to the hearts of many politicians (see Francophonie). This is associated with a superiority complex of the Parisian uniformised French as the language imposed by the French Revolution.
The Picard dialect is for me almost identical to Walloon, the slight differences could be explained by distance and the position of French border since 1830. It seems accepted in Wallonia that Walloon and Picard have one and the same root. Note that the local dialect in Mons ("Borinage") is considered Walloon and not Picard by the inhabitants, thus indicating the equivalency of the two terms. If there is a difference, I would point to the absorption of words from mercantile and settlement contacts with other languages. That not all words which are not Romance in origin are borrowed can be shown by comparing two examples: "rabbit" in Picard and Walloon is robet with or without a voiced T (compare French "lapin" and Romance "coney"); whereas "cat" is cat in both (compare French "chat", Romance "catta"). See http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=rabbit&searchmode=none which has "robet" with a voiced T (robète). This must go back to the localised use of a common Frankish or Flemish root. Jeremynicholas 07:58, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
As in most cases of dialect distribution, there are no hard and fast borders between various uses. The official Walloon site, of which this page is a large translation, admits the same. In particular the border in Belgium between Picard and Walloon seems to me to be artificial.
One could also define a more generic "distribution of use of dialects within Wallonia" as the base. In that case you end up with five zones by dividing as follows: Mons - Tournai - Ath (Borin); La Louviere - Nivelles - Soignies - Chimay (Centre); Charleroi - Philippeville - Dinant - Namur (Charleroi); Ardennes; Liège and the rest (Liègeois) (though one could argue that Arlon is not Lorrain in language and that Verviers is somewhat different from Liège. This is based on personal observation.
Against the principle of "lî walon rifondu" there acts the great fragmentation of dialects in Belgium, whose development was probably helped by the hilly terrain and very localised cultures under heavy immigration. The whole exercise is hindered by the attempt to write it using some standardised system of diacritics - the dialect differences have grown up because they were not written down. The official site itself refers to wanting to write "fish" as pexhon for both the Liège area where they say pèhon with a silent H, and elsewhere where they say pèchon with a guttural H. Further, one difference between what I define as "Centre" and "Charleroi" Walloon lies in the use of "W" as a prefix for words beginning with vowels when a liaison is imposed: "upstairs" is in French "en haut", pronounced with the "n" attached to the "haut" ("naut"); in Centre this schema is followed but in Charleroi it becomes "en" pronounced with the nasal "N" and a "W" prefixing the soundless "H" - "en waut". This does not show the absolute correctness of the proposal in the previous paragraph, but these differences show the gradual nature of dialect mutation over physical distance. Jeremynicholas 07:58, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
With respect to the orthograph, the wording "pexhon" is typical from the Liège Walloon and reflects in places like "Xhoris" or "Xhoffrais" (pronounced "Horis" and Hoffraix" with a silent H, or family names like "Xhenceval".
But beside these (minor) differences, you can also find more important variances that allow to make clear difference between East and West Walloon and sometime to locate a boundarie between these two main kinds of Walloon. For instance, the word potatoe is called "canada" in West Walloon while it's called "crompîre" is Est Walloon. And according to some books I have read many years ago, there are a lot of words that would actually allow to make such distinction. -- Lebob-BE 00:17, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
I am removing the tag, since it was probably added by mistake. Feel free to put it back if I am wrong :) -- lucasbfr talk 13:45, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I've been reading through the "example phrases", and I've been wondering how all of that is pronounced. Could anyone record and upload a sound sample for the pronounciation? Thanks in advance! Zouavman Le Zouave 11:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
https://archive.org/details/phoneticwallonforbelgianamericans
Is the Walloon language more or less influenced by early Celtic languages than French is ?
Why do the Walloons not use the Gaulish numbering system (quatre-vingts) like the French do ?
What can one say about the popular belief that the word Walloon is etymologically cognate to (petit) G(w)allois ?
If this popular etymology is known to be false perhaps that knowledge should be explained here.
--
Paulalexdij (
talk) 14:37, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Removed this:
as either it is or it isn't spoken there, and do we mean two villages or do we mean three? If we can't be sure about either of these statements, they should be omitted until they can be substantiated one way or the other. -- Picapica ( talk) 11:08, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Several linguists divide the Oil language in groups and among them the septentrional one, containing Walloon, Picard and Norman (except the southern one). If you compare these 3 dialects (vocabulary, phonetics...) to each other, you notice they have more common points together than they have one by one with the central Oil group ( including Parisian French, so: French).... The language spoken in Les Andelys (100 km west from Paris) is (was) closer to the Picard and the Walloon dialect than the Parisian one. The phonetical and vocabularial differences create(d) a real linguistic boarder that is (was) more significant than the boarders between Norman and Picard or Picard and Walloon. Nortmannus ( talk) 16:16, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
AFAICT, Walloon is not official in Belgium. Someone should verify this and update the article appropriately.
Also of note: The earliest "French" treatise on the longsword (La noble science des joueurs d'espee) is actually written in Old/Middle Walloon. It contains some distinctive northern langue d'oïl characteristics, such as the word "commenche". The Jade Knight ( talk) 22:10, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Walloon is certainly not official in Belgium, and I have corrected it. The error probably arose because the language infobox template contains a field labelled "nation", but when the box is displayed it shows as "official language in": extremely bad template design, in my opinion. JamesBWatson ( talk) 08:34, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Is spoken ... until the mid 20th century is not just incorrect grammar; it's also unclear whether the language is dead everywhere or just in some regions. -- Espoo ( talk) 21:15, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
Why language family always descent to the roght consecutive only one branch? 2404:8000:1027:85F6:799A:7835:1C33:4B35 ( talk) 04:03, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
Poursia 109.143.164.220 ( talk) 17:44, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
Translated following this request:
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
Picard language states it is spoken in much the same areas Walloon language is. Is this the same language, or another regional Romance language? — Jor (Talk) 16:59, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
This article stated the ISO codes for Walloon were "wa" and "wln", respectively. However, no source I could find even mentions Walloon, or any of these codes. Could someone cite a source for them? Thanks. — Timwi 23:05, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I think this paragraph may be wrong:
A borrowing from Germanic languages: the construction Cwè çki c' est di ça po ene fleur (what is this flower?) can be compared word to word to German Was ist das für eine Blume? or Dutch Wat is dat voor een bloem?.
For starters, both the Dutch and the German quotes mean something like "What sort of flower is that". And the french (at least Belgian French) has a similar construction: Qu'est-ce que c'est (que ça) comme (un) fleur? So I wouldn't rush to a conclusion that this is a Germanic borrowing. 88.111.151.181 17:18, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
It has been proposed that Languages of Oïl be renamed and moved to Langues d'Oïl. Comments and votes on Talk:Languages of Oïl, please, if you're interested. Man vyi 09:09, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
In France, the language has been made uniform over the last few hundred years. This has been an imposed uniformity around Parisian French, enforced so much in the schools to the extent that all dialects almost died out, surviving pretty much uniquely in family groups or more culturally-isolated or -homogeneous communities. The recent acknowledgement of their existence by the French Government is therefore quite a change in policy.
The principle that all French speakers are part of the same culture (and at a stretch, part of the same nation) is still in the background, and a subject dear to the hearts of many politicians (see Francophonie). This is associated with a superiority complex of the Parisian uniformised French as the language imposed by the French Revolution.
The Picard dialect is for me almost identical to Walloon, the slight differences could be explained by distance and the position of French border since 1830. It seems accepted in Wallonia that Walloon and Picard have one and the same root. Note that the local dialect in Mons ("Borinage") is considered Walloon and not Picard by the inhabitants, thus indicating the equivalency of the two terms. If there is a difference, I would point to the absorption of words from mercantile and settlement contacts with other languages. That not all words which are not Romance in origin are borrowed can be shown by comparing two examples: "rabbit" in Picard and Walloon is robet with or without a voiced T (compare French "lapin" and Romance "coney"); whereas "cat" is cat in both (compare French "chat", Romance "catta"). See http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=rabbit&searchmode=none which has "robet" with a voiced T (robète). This must go back to the localised use of a common Frankish or Flemish root. Jeremynicholas 07:58, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
As in most cases of dialect distribution, there are no hard and fast borders between various uses. The official Walloon site, of which this page is a large translation, admits the same. In particular the border in Belgium between Picard and Walloon seems to me to be artificial.
One could also define a more generic "distribution of use of dialects within Wallonia" as the base. In that case you end up with five zones by dividing as follows: Mons - Tournai - Ath (Borin); La Louviere - Nivelles - Soignies - Chimay (Centre); Charleroi - Philippeville - Dinant - Namur (Charleroi); Ardennes; Liège and the rest (Liègeois) (though one could argue that Arlon is not Lorrain in language and that Verviers is somewhat different from Liège. This is based on personal observation.
Against the principle of "lî walon rifondu" there acts the great fragmentation of dialects in Belgium, whose development was probably helped by the hilly terrain and very localised cultures under heavy immigration. The whole exercise is hindered by the attempt to write it using some standardised system of diacritics - the dialect differences have grown up because they were not written down. The official site itself refers to wanting to write "fish" as pexhon for both the Liège area where they say pèhon with a silent H, and elsewhere where they say pèchon with a guttural H. Further, one difference between what I define as "Centre" and "Charleroi" Walloon lies in the use of "W" as a prefix for words beginning with vowels when a liaison is imposed: "upstairs" is in French "en haut", pronounced with the "n" attached to the "haut" ("naut"); in Centre this schema is followed but in Charleroi it becomes "en" pronounced with the nasal "N" and a "W" prefixing the soundless "H" - "en waut". This does not show the absolute correctness of the proposal in the previous paragraph, but these differences show the gradual nature of dialect mutation over physical distance. Jeremynicholas 07:58, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
With respect to the orthograph, the wording "pexhon" is typical from the Liège Walloon and reflects in places like "Xhoris" or "Xhoffrais" (pronounced "Horis" and Hoffraix" with a silent H, or family names like "Xhenceval".
But beside these (minor) differences, you can also find more important variances that allow to make clear difference between East and West Walloon and sometime to locate a boundarie between these two main kinds of Walloon. For instance, the word potatoe is called "canada" in West Walloon while it's called "crompîre" is Est Walloon. And according to some books I have read many years ago, there are a lot of words that would actually allow to make such distinction. -- Lebob-BE 00:17, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
I am removing the tag, since it was probably added by mistake. Feel free to put it back if I am wrong :) -- lucasbfr talk 13:45, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I've been reading through the "example phrases", and I've been wondering how all of that is pronounced. Could anyone record and upload a sound sample for the pronounciation? Thanks in advance! Zouavman Le Zouave 11:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
https://archive.org/details/phoneticwallonforbelgianamericans
Is the Walloon language more or less influenced by early Celtic languages than French is ?
Why do the Walloons not use the Gaulish numbering system (quatre-vingts) like the French do ?
What can one say about the popular belief that the word Walloon is etymologically cognate to (petit) G(w)allois ?
If this popular etymology is known to be false perhaps that knowledge should be explained here.
--
Paulalexdij (
talk) 14:37, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Removed this:
as either it is or it isn't spoken there, and do we mean two villages or do we mean three? If we can't be sure about either of these statements, they should be omitted until they can be substantiated one way or the other. -- Picapica ( talk) 11:08, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Several linguists divide the Oil language in groups and among them the septentrional one, containing Walloon, Picard and Norman (except the southern one). If you compare these 3 dialects (vocabulary, phonetics...) to each other, you notice they have more common points together than they have one by one with the central Oil group ( including Parisian French, so: French).... The language spoken in Les Andelys (100 km west from Paris) is (was) closer to the Picard and the Walloon dialect than the Parisian one. The phonetical and vocabularial differences create(d) a real linguistic boarder that is (was) more significant than the boarders between Norman and Picard or Picard and Walloon. Nortmannus ( talk) 16:16, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
AFAICT, Walloon is not official in Belgium. Someone should verify this and update the article appropriately.
Also of note: The earliest "French" treatise on the longsword (La noble science des joueurs d'espee) is actually written in Old/Middle Walloon. It contains some distinctive northern langue d'oïl characteristics, such as the word "commenche". The Jade Knight ( talk) 22:10, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Walloon is certainly not official in Belgium, and I have corrected it. The error probably arose because the language infobox template contains a field labelled "nation", but when the box is displayed it shows as "official language in": extremely bad template design, in my opinion. JamesBWatson ( talk) 08:34, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Is spoken ... until the mid 20th century is not just incorrect grammar; it's also unclear whether the language is dead everywhere or just in some regions. -- Espoo ( talk) 21:15, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
Why language family always descent to the roght consecutive only one branch? 2404:8000:1027:85F6:799A:7835:1C33:4B35 ( talk) 04:03, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
Poursia 109.143.164.220 ( talk) 17:44, 20 December 2023 (UTC)