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User Wfsf added a bunch of material under studies (specifically relating to Gidley's work). Since some of the study's were funded by the Rudolf Steiner Schools Association of Australia those might fall outside the guidelines from ArbComm on article probation (specifically the use of sources that are not peer reviewed). I commented them out, if folks disagree go ahead and 'uncomment' them. -- Rocksanddirt ( talk) 01:07, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
I read through the whole article, and did not find any explicit criticism of the Steiner school system, despite it being heavily criticised by the mainstream. Surely this article should at least reference public opinion. It reads like it was written by their marketing department Npmontgomery ( talk) 10:36, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm also astounded at the lack of a 'Controversy' section. Steiner's views are controversial to say the least. Lucifer's presence is strong in electronic devices? etc. Max sang ( talk) 13:06, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2012/02/frome-steiner-academy-absurd-educational-quackery.html http://www.dcscience.net/?p=3528 http://www.dcscience.net/?p=3595 http://www.dcscience.net/?p=3853 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.98.252.198 ( talk) 15:55, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
OK, if you believe there are reliable sources then you need to take them up, one by one, here first, per WP:BRD. So let's discuss: the critical web sites are not reliable sources and blog posts are not reliable sources. Perhaps the only source you have is the Guardian article -- but that one may not be valid because of giving one report undue weight. You need to make the case here as to what the wording should be. Also, please be aware that you can't engage in original research in which you stitch together several sources to draw conclusions that are not present in any of the sources. -- EPadmirateur ( talk) 13:51, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
then do so here on the talk page. Otherwise, I object that using this article is placing undue emphasis in the reception section.In Australia concern have been raised in Victoria about the performance of Waldoff schools and efforts have been made to try to strengthen the regulatory framework around them
It's hard to imagine how this statement could be more fully supported from the sources. Please note that the article says "a positive reception from educationalists", not from disaffected parents. The primary cited reference has a direct, unambiguous statement that "Leading educators have a high regard for Waldorf education." and then cites three educationalists, Ernest Boyer, Sir Thomas Armstrong and Robert Peterkin, all of whom have strong statements of support for Waldorf. So how is the statement in the article a gross overstatement? In fact it understates the statement in the cited reference, which says leading educators. Do you have other educationalists who disagree? If so, please provide the reliably sourced references.the opening statement "Waldorf education has had a positive reception from educationalists" is simply not backed up by the facts provided and therefore represents a gross overstatement.
The statement about the positive reception is sourced to an WP:RS.
You quote WP:SELFPUB. By this standard, Waldorf publications may be used in this article for factual information (numbers of schools, etc.) It does not apply to external organizations such as Waldorfwatch, etc. commenting on Waldorf schools; this is not a self-description. You are seriously distorting this policy.
This link is about a party in Venezuela, and has no references to Waldorf education whatsoever. I am removing this and the section citing it.
Once again, blogs are simply inadequate sources, especially when they are from someone outside the field. Do reread WP:RS on this. hgilbert ( talk) 09:09, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
The information about Colquhoun's activity against homeopathy/anthroposophic medicine is irrelevant here. Also, a link to his blog was mistitled Times Education Supplement. I've cleaned up this part. hgilbert ( talk) 09:18, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
The Dutch study explicitly says that the educational results were not evaluated because the free (Waldorf) schools do not use the state assessments. Unless we make clear what was actually evaluated, then, this is a misleading judgement to include. It seems that they judged that 8 of the 45 schools had weak methods to evaluate the progress of their pupils. Is this a correct reading of the text? hgilbert ( talk) 19:19, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
As has been discussed here before, material particular to individual schools is appropriately placed in articles on those schools, not in the general article. If there is not yet an article about the school, feel free to create one. hgilbert ( talk) 18:30, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
I am confused here. I posted something about both of the publically funded Waldorf schools in Sonoma County, not an 'individual school,' and that information comes from official sources (so it is properly sourced), and the information provides information which contradicts the 'Official' Waldorf position. I do not believe that the 'official' statement of the Waldorf committee reflects their reality. Anti-immunization is so highly correlated with the Waldorf schools I have looked at as to be close to official policy. Waldorf schools in the US education as practiced in the US includes a substantial anti-immunization RichGibson ( talk) 18:30, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
The current text refers to a 'consensus statement' which is a dead link. This page http://www.waldorfanswers.org/QuestionsMore.htm refers to a growing anti-immunization movement within and outside of Waldorf schools, but again refers to the same dead link as the 'consensus statement' on vaccinations.
The article does not cite a verifiable source on the policy of Waldorf education towards vaccinations. The article does say "Studies have found Waldorf pupils to have a lower incidence of allergies and allergic-like symptoms, an effect which correlated with the extent to which they lived an "anthroposophic lifestyle" generally - in particular with reduced use of antibiotics, antipyretics, and measles, mumps and rubella vaccination" Which is a deep violation of NPOV - to assert a correlation when there is a deep selection bias in the cited studies.
I will replace the immunization section with something sourced unless it is properly sourced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RichGibson ( talk • contribs) 18:30, 15 June 2010
You removed the link to the same references used in the health study which say that a reduced use of the MMR vaccine is why Waldorf kids have fewer allergies from the section on immunizations? WTF?
Would data from the whole of California count for you? The private and public Waldorf schools in California have 'Personal Belief Exemption' rates of 12% to 88% of their kindergarten classes. Regardless of what the official position is - and I assert here, but would not do so in the article, that the 'official' position was a lie in order for Waldorf education to not appear like a complete cult - Waldorf students are grossly under vaccinated. That fact should be in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RichGibson ( talk • contribs) 21:10, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
My assertion in the article was about the actual vaccination rates in the two public waldorf schools in Sonoma county, supported by the state of california data. That was not 'original research' unless 'original research' means 'reading the numbers in a table. RichGibson ( talk) 20:54, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
I did not assert that it was official policy in my article edits. The Correlation here is highly significant, as is the incredible effort which goes into maintaining the lie that this correlation does not exist. RichGibson ( talk) 20:54, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
The big deal is that the article is making a specific health claim about allergies, and that the Anthroposophic 'lifestyle' is responsible, and that that lifestyle includes minimal use of the MMR vaccine.
Later under the immunization controversy section there is no discussion about the observable fact that the students who are at Anthroposophic schools are in fact under immunuzed. RichGibson ( talk) 20:54, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
The fact that the students in Waldorf schools in California have personal exemptions from immunizations at a higher rate than the state average is fact, verified by the State of California statistics which I ref'd. In Sonoma County the exemption rate is 52% for the private school, 71% for one charter school, and 88% for the other. The state average for personal exemptions is less than 2%. Moving to the rest of the state provides similar numbers. The schools can claim that this is not an official policy, but I did not argue that it is official policy, only that the numbers are true and that they are verifiable.
My edits have been deleted with the argument that the verifiable truth of individual school and county data is not relevant to a 'movement of over 1000 schools.' So from my point of view, true and verifiable information about a significant component of life in Waldorf schools is being suppressed on wikipedia. RichGibson ( talk) 16:48, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
Though this is a year later, I will say that I was a Waldorf parent and I vaccinated my children. There were parents who didn't, however. 19th century spiritualists did not believe in vaccination. Alfred Russel Wallace, the co-discoverer of evolution with Darwin, campaigned against it. Feelings against vaccinations are still widespread in countercultural and spiritualist groups like Waldorf and and also many others. My friend, who became a Waldorf teacher, took her sons to an anthroposophical pediatrician in at the Spring Valley, NY, Anthroposophical Community. He dealt in homeopathic medicine as an adjuct to mainstream medicine but to my surprise he persuaded her to vaccinate her two boys (she had been very opposed to it) against all but one of the main childhood diseases (don't remember which it was but it was one of the less fatal ones). I think the article should reflect that there is a range of opinion even among hard-core Anthroposophists. That said, although I am not religious and do believe in mainstream medicine, most of the time, we did not find Waldorf at all restrictive. To me it is the same as having standards. My daughter agreed, after 12 years of Waldorf, she was a national merit semi-finalist and went to a very selective college and is very happy with her Waldorf preparation. It affected our whole family for the better, and my older child was sorry he hadn't got to go to Waldorf (I didn't know about it then). I think they definitely do seek to educate "the whole child". Of course, Waldorf schools do vary a great deal and you might get some with some kooky people -- I don't know, but it certainly was not our experience. 173.77.104.175 ( talk) 04:20, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
I have made a small edit to this section. I removed the reference for the Townsend letter as its not a reputable journal, I updated the link to the JACI to the full text rather than an article discussing the text which made assertions that the paper did not. Following this I removed any reference to the MMR vaccine as the paper does not conclude that it has an effect of allergy (they give the lack of antibiotics and anti-pyretics the credit). The paper does say that the students had an increased rate of the Measles but considering the section of the wiki article devoted to vaccination this doesn't seem like the place to put in. Kirren of smeg ( talk) 12:33, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Vis a vis the Jaeckel quote: Though I believe the original text gathered the sense of the author's meaning, I have tried to match the article text more precisely to the exact quote. Rather than reverting, the IP user involved could make any adjustments s/he still feels are necessary. hgilbert ( talk) 17:58, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
The Mentor magazine article was copied into the article almost verbatim.
Though Waldorf schools were Euro-centric to begin with; today they have incorporated an increasingly wide range of cultural and religious traditions. Festivals play an important role in Waldorf schools. Festivals and celebrations that best meet the needs and traditions of the students in their particular school are followed. Waldorf theories and practices have been adapted by schools to the historical and cultural traditions of the surrounding communities. In fact, Waldorf schools located in regions where Jewish, Buddhist or Islamic traditions are dominant celebrate festivals drawn from these cultures.
Article text:
...but these schools are now incorporating an increasingly wide range of cultural and religious traditions. Schools located where Jewish, Buddhist, or Islamic traditions are dominant celebrate festivals drawn from these traditions.
This problem must be solved before the Mentor source is brought back into the article. Binksternet ( talk) 15:14, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
The "criticism of studies" section is 100% WP:Original research. In addition, the justification that someday references will be found to shore this up is absurd; WP editors are expected to find references to support assertions that are not common knowledge before adding these. (Otherwise anyone could add anything to any article with the justification that they would someday find citations to support this.) hgilbert ( talk) 00:21, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
- Note that many of the studies showing superior results (or simply different results) for students of Waldorf schools are unfortunately not scientifically controlled experiments.
- Unless the assignment of children to the either the "Waldorf" or "other" condition is random, it is possible that significant differences exist between the two groups of students that were not caused by the different schools (or in fact existed before the students' participation in the programs).
- Without random assignment (or at least some sort of control mechanism that can approximate it if true random assignment is not feasible), it is difficult to draw conclusions about the potential superiority of the Waldorf model.
- For instance, critics could still contend that any observed superiorities in the Waldorf students were actually caused by a third factor which simply correlates more strongly with families that choose to send their children to Waldorf schools than it does with the average population as a whole.
- (As noted above, educational successes of private Waldorf schools may partially reflect the social status of their students. [1])
- Critics could even claim that students who do well at Waldorf models would do significantly better under some other model, and only well-controlled empirical studies will be able to settle this issue.
- Note also, however, that the Waldorf model is not unique in receiving these criticisms, but shares them with other popular alternative models like Montessori.
I did have a chance to take a look at a lot of the materials in the studies section, and found that there are a few outstanding issues with how sources are being used:
Has some very nuances findings which are not accurately depicted in our use of the cite, for example: "Overall, there is a lack of rigorous research on the impact of Steiner school education on learning and achievement and little research which systematically compares Steiner and mainstream schools." and "The research studies reviewed also give a cumulative impression that Steiner schools tend to create positive and mutually supportive relationships in schools. However, as with the research on learning and achievement, studies tend to be small scale and there are insufficient rigorous comparative investigations of Steiner and mainstream schools." This may also be relevant to the section above.A UK Department for Education and Skills report noted significant differences in curriculum and pedagogical approach between Waldorf/Steiner and mainstream schools and suggested that each type of school could learn from the other type's strengths: in particular, that state schools could benefit from Waldorf education's [2] early introduction and approach to modern foreign languages; combination of block (class) and subject teaching for younger children; development of speaking and listening through an emphasis on oral work; good pacing of lessons through an emphasis on rhythm; emphasis on child development guiding the curriculum and examinations; approach to art and creativity; attention given to teachers’ reflective activity and heightened awareness (in collective child study for example); and collegial structure of leadership and management, including collegial study. Aspects of mainstream practice which could inform good practice in Waldorf schools included: management skills and ways of improving organizational and administrative efficiency; classroom management; work with secondary-school age children; and assessment and record keeping.
5 is not an RS for how it is being used for several different reasons. It's published through an university publisher, but otherwise not reviewed. Some of the results presented in it are based on absurdly small sample sizes without controls. The authors also make it clear that they are not neutrally on the subject. Most importantly however, what it's sourcing is only weakly supported by the text, and appears to randomly pick facts from it.A 2007 study in Sweden comparing Waldorf and state schools reported that Waldorf pupils were more likely to have a positive learning attitude, less likely to have passing tests as the goal of their learning, and had a "more in-depth study style" in higher education. They also showed more tolerant attitudes to minority groups and less tolerance of racist ideologies, were more involved with social and moral questions and were more likely to believe in the social efficacy of love, solidarity, and civil courage as opposed to legislation or police control. In addition, Waldorf students tended to wait longer before attending university. [3]: pp. 60-61
8 (Hether, Christine Anne, The moral reasoning of high school seniors from diverse educational settings, Ph.D. dissertation, Saybrook Graduate School and Research Center, 2001, 209 pages; AAT 3044032) is not a RS unless it was peer reviewed and published elsewhere, and PhD's from distance-learning programs are generally seen a problematic.An American study found that Waldorf-educated students scored significantly higher on a test of moral reasoning than students in public high schools and students in a religiously-affiliated high school. Waldorf students were also far more likely to volunteer opinions about the survey and research in general, suggesting possible improvements in the survey technique and offering new possibilities to resolve the moral dilemmas raised in the survey. [4]
Same thing goes for 6 (Freda Easton, The Waldorf impulse in education:Schools as communities that educate the whole child by integrating artistic and academic work, Ph.D. thesis, Columbia University Teachers College, 1995), and some of the things sourced to it are generally unencyclopedic: " Many students spoke of the kindness of their peers and of learning to think things through clearly for themselves, not to jump to conclusions, and to remain positive in the face of problems and independent of pressure from others to think as they do."A 1995 survey of U.S. Waldorf schools found that parents overall experienced the Waldorf schools as achieving their major aims for students, and described the education as one that "integrates the aesthetic, spiritual and interpersonal development of the child with rigorous intellectual development", preserving students' enthusiasm for learning so that they develop a better sense of self-confidence and self-direction. Some parents described upper grades teachers as overextended, without sufficient time to relate to parental needs and input, and wished for more open and reciprocal parent-school support. Both parents and students sometimes described colleges of teachers as being insular and unresponsive. [New paragraph] The students overall were positive about the school and its differences; experienced the school as a "community of friends"; and spoke of the opportunity to grow and develop through the broad range of activities offered, to learn when they were ready to learn, to develop imagination, and to come to understand the world as well as oneself. Many students spoke of the kindness of their peers and of learning to think things through clearly for themselves, not to jump to conclusions, and to remain positive in the face of problems and independent of pressure from others to think as they do. Improvements the students suggested included more after-school sports programs, more physical education classes, more preparation for standardized testing, a class in world politics and computer classes. Faculty, parents and students were united in expressing a desire to improve the diversity of the student body, especially by increasing representation of minority groups such as African-Americans and Hispanic Americans. [5]
85 (Sebastian Suggate, "Response to reading instruction and age related development", unpublished doctoral dissertation. Dept. of Psychology, Univ. of Otago, New Zealand. (2009). See summary at Learning & Development: Reading - Willing and able?) is similarly sourced to an unpublished dissertation, which contains an unreviewed primary study.A 2009 study comparing Waldorf and public school students in New Zealand found that the Waldorf students, who had no formal instruction in reading in pre-school or kindergarten, caught up in reading ability by around age 10, at which point there was "no difference in reading achievement between children who had been given early instruction in reading and those who had not". [6]
91 is a primary study and notes that there have been several contradictory findings particularly related to the MMR point. It's unreasonable to choose a single result from several contradictory ones, absent any particular evidence to support it.Studies have found Waldorf pupils to have a lower incidence of allergies and allergic-like symptoms, an effect which correlated with the extent to which they lived an "anthroposophic lifestyle" generally - in particular with reduced use of antibiotics, and antipyretics. Children who had received MMR vaccine showed an increased risk of rhinoconjunctivitis. [7]
To try to make this somewhat less confusing, I have expanded on my original comments and included the original context. (Some of the reference numbers will not match up here as a result). Please feel free to discuss them individually above, or in general below. a13ean ( talk) 17:00, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
Any thoughts? a13ean ( talk) 00:23, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
It would be helpful to seek a wider circle of opinion here to form consensus. We've been able to agree on several points (more precisely, there are areas where I've agreed with User:A13ean and made corresponding changes), but there are other areas where we are not reaching common ground. hgilbert ( talk) 20:14, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
A critique in the article was attributed to a blog posting by Colquhoun, who is a notable pharmacologist (and thus likely not a reliable source for an article on education anyway). On more careful examination it turns out that the blog posting is actually not his; it is a guest post that appears on his blog site. The true author has no standing as a reliable source whatsoever, and a guest posting on someone else's blog is not exactly an encouraging basis for an encyclopedia citation. I have removed the passage. hgilbert ( talk) 00:01, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
Siraj-Blatchford and Whitebread are idiosyncratic in describing Waldorf early childhood programs as emphasizing "non-manufactured" materials. The claim is unsourced and wildly inaccurate; obviously Waldorf early childhood programs use tables, chairs, buildings, cloths, cutlery, and probably thousands of other items that are manufactured. Siraj-Blatchford and Whitebread essentially critique the schools for not doing what they never claimed to do.
To see if there was some basis for their claim, I did a Google search on "non-manufactured" materials and Steiner or Waldorf; the only hit that comes up is a reference which uses Siraj-Blatchford and Whitebread as their source for the claim.
The claim is sourced to an otherwise excellent RS, but I would suggest that it is a bugbear better left out. How do others feel?
Also: I have moved this to early childhood, as the source is speaking of "Foundation Stage education", which applies to 3-5 year olds in Britain. hgilbert ( talk) 21:28, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
Hi, Alexbrn, in this edit you question that the Grace Chen source supports the statement that the Waldorf methodology encourages collaborative learning. At the end of the article, Chen states "some private schools, such as the Waldorf schools, already operate based upon collaborative reasoning". Chen earlier stated that "collaborative reasoning programs encourage students to become consistently active and personally accountable for their own evaluations and conclusions". This is presented in the context of and as part of "collaborative learning".
How does the WP article statement "present a leap from what the source actually says" -- that "Waldorf methodology encourages collaborative learning" is a leap from "Waldorf schools operate based on collaborative reasoning" in the context of collaborative learning?
Please discuss. In the meantime, I am removing the tag. -- EPadmirateur ( talk) 01:45, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
To assert any other interpretation is a leap of logic. -- EPadmirateur ( talk) 03:01, 29 November 2012 (UTC)While some private schools, such as the Waldorf schools, already operate based upon collaborative reasoning, the philosophy shows great promise for the future of public school classrooms.
This article reads like a propaganda piece for Steiner Schools. According to this article Steiner was a radical racist and believed in unconventional spirituality. One point it brings up is that reading is not taught to children until their adult teeth emerge because teaching reading is felt to interfere with the child's spiritual development. 128.135.39.147 ( talk) 15:59, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
The following recent addition to the article is stated as fact, whereas it is actually Carroll's opinion: However, it is likely that some of anthroposophy's weirder views will be passed-on in Waldorf education, such as Steiner's belief in the existence of Atlantis or his views on astral bodies, even though anthroposophy is not formally part of the curriculum.
I suggest that it would be more appropriate to revise it to reflect the fact that it is one person's opinion, as has done elsewhere in the article. hgilbert ( talk) 22:15, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
WP:SELFSOURCE states:
Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as: the material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim; it does not involve claims about third parties (such as people, organizations, or other entities); it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject; there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity; the article is not based primarily on such sources.
I will restore the Association of Waldorf Schools statement, as this is clearly an example of an organization stating its equal-opportunity policy, a normal thing for any organization to do, and this article is indeed about the Waldorf schools. hgilbert ( talk) 11:12, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
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I am puzzled by the Failed verification templates that have been added:
-- "Its methodology encourages collaborative learning." is cited to a source that says "Some private schools, such as the Waldorf schools, already operate based upon collaborative reasoning". How is this a failure in verification?
-- " learning is interdisciplinary, integrating practical, artistic, and conceptual elements" is cited to a source that says, "The school conception of education is reflected in a curriculum in which practical, artistic and academic learning are equally represented and integrated." I have added an additional citation supporting the term interdisciplinary (and the term holistic, appearing earlier in the sentence). hgilbert ( talk) 01:26, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
The problem now is that it is apparent the source does not support the text, since the source describes a single school, the curriculum of which is merely "heavily influenced" by Steiner, and for which "it is open to speculation whether the form of curriculum articulation exemplified here could be implemented independently of Steiner's theory". Such a caveated description of a single school just isn't good enough as a source for an essentialized description of Steiner education in general, stated as fact. A further problem is that the source is authored in whole or in part by "persons deeply involved in the movement such as teachers or theoreticians", which contravenes the AC ruling on sources. I have therefore removed this material. Alexbrn ( talk) 10:43, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
Hi Alexbrn, you have apparently removed a citation to a Ph.D. dissertation from the accredited Saybrook Graduate School and Research Center here, apparently because it also appears on the Internet on the "Waldorf Library" web site. Wherever else this source has been published does not negate the fact that it is a WP:RS that does not conflict with the arbitration committee's restrictions, since it comes initially from a non-anthroposophical source. I am going to reverse your edit. It seems you are stretching considerably the interpretation of the arbitration committee. -- EPadmirateur ( talk) 05:35, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
I agree. hgilbert ( talk) 11:05, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
I am removing the text from the lede "It has a humanistic approach to pedagogy and learning is interdisciplinary", which (as in the case discussed earlier) does not appear to be supported by the source. I have two meta-questions which maybe long-standing editors here can help me with:
Alexbrn ( talk) 11:00, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
I would also like to be included among the editors here who are trying to improve this article and providing sources to support statements in the lead and elsewhere, if editors feel that specific statements and characterizations need to be sourced. I would agree with Hgilbert that the characterizations are well-sourced and are generally held among those who are familiar with Waldorf education, as they appear in many sources. However, if the characterizations sound implausible or overly positive to the general reader then they can be sourced. If there are negative characterizations in reliable sources, they need to be included as well for a neutral point of view. -- EPadmirateur ( talk) 19:56, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
I suggest that we make an effort to move supportive text, with footnotes, to the body (for example about charter, public and homeschooling Waldorf environments). This would allow us to remove footnotes from the lede in many cases, improving flow. hgilbert ( talk) 15:36, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
As far as I can see, WP:INTEXT nowhere suggests that everything but simple facts needs citation. Here are some relevant standards I find there:
(The last is from NPOV)
In this article, essentially every statement, including those of simple fact, has been challenged by one editor or another over time. (An example of this is the opening statement that Waldorf education was founded by Rudolf Steiner; an editor became very aggressive challenging this at one point, and thus there is a footnote for what is clearly a simple statement of fact.) The footnotes have thus proliferated, and perhaps this process refined the article in some ways. hgilbert ( talk) 13:46, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
If the Dan Dugan-Judy Daar concerns are included, there need to be balancing, WP:RS statements disputing the religious nature of Waldorf education and/or anthroposophy, for WP:NPOV. Dugan and Daar make statements that are strongly disputed by Waldorf proponents. -- EPadmirateur ( talk) 20:08, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
I inserted one, as outlined in discussion above, but note the edit has been reverted by User:Hgilbert – who, as a COI-tainted editor under ArbCom sanction needs to be extremely careful here. What's the problem? Everything mentioned in the para is mentioned in the body, and stated plainly. If the para "needs work" then start on that work, don't revert — that appears to me like an aggressive edit. Alexbrn ( talk) 18:03, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Yes. From WP:Bold: "Don't get upset if your bold edits get deleted." Sometimes it's better to work something through in the talk space. hgilbert ( talk) 23:31, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
The following needs work:
I question whether every one of these controversies justifies a place in the lede, and if so, does every positive affirmation also justify a place there? NPOV would require balance here (see WP:Criticism). hgilbert ( talk) 18:34, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Alternative (needs work still):
Waldorf pedagogy has been critiqued for not embracing formal instruction in reading, mathematics, and information technology in early childhood programs; the value of doing so remains controversial amongst literacy experts. Some Waldorf schools have been criticized for having low immunization rates for certain vaccinations; the schools assert that this is due to individual decisions by parents, rather than school policy. A number of critics have suggested that Waldorf schools include spiritual or religious elements; the schools have denied they are religious in nature, and in the United States have successfully defended that position in court.
hgilbert (
talk)
18:53, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
I am not promoting myself or my institutional affiliation, which is a particular school. No personal or financial advantage whatsoever can possibly accrue to me through editing this article. I have worked with many editors here to ensure that all standpoints represented in RSs are represented. I have added explicitly negative evaluations; for example, "The pedagogy's reliance on a single theory of child development has also been questioned and some Waldorf teachers' uncritical attitude toward anthroposophy criticized.[17]" and "The Dutch Inspectorate of Education reported that a significantly higher percentage of Waldorf elementary schools than state elementary schools visited were judged weak or very weak in the following areas: providing differentiated instruction and lesson plans, the curriculum meeting primary goals in mathematics and language arts, and pupil assessment". (There are others, as well.)
You appear to me to have a marked bias; you have objected to apparently non-evaluative/objective descriptors that are sourced in multiple academic citations (e.g. interdisciplinary), but are ready to include highly evaluative/subjective descriptors (e.g. controversial) sourced in a single citation drawn from a news article.
You keep turning substantive disagreements, on which I have repeatedly compromised, into personal questions over what you claim to be a COI. I will not remove the "W.e. is controversial" statement, but I believe it to be ridiculous -- there are certainly aspects that are controversial, but many aspects are not, and blanket statements are generally less helpful than differentiated/nuanced descriptors. hgilbert ( talk) 11:50, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
I am looking at this document cited in the Article and notice is is headed "not for publication" (it is published on the waldorfanswers.org site, which is a bit iffy isn't it?). Does anybody know whether this should be being reproduced on WP? It's obviously handy to have. Meanwhile, I'll see if I can find a new story verifying the fact of this legal outcome. Alexbrn ( talk) 13:13, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
I've found a press release which, being from an established law firm, is a reasonably good secondary source, and used that. I also replaced the text in the article based on the new source — what was there before (why does this not surprise me?) was slightly misdirecting in that it implied the judge had reached a conclusion based on evidence surrounding the subject in general, rather than the evidence presented at trial in particular (of which, incidentally, he seems rather contemptuous – particularly of that presented by the plaintiff). Alexbrn ( talk) 08:32, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Normally a press release would be a bit suspect, and since this once comes from the lawyers defending the case this may even be COI-tainted. However, I think that law firms have to show exceptional care in their public statements, and of course their output is legally vetted ... therefore any legal commentary they offer is highly likely to be careful and accurate. In any case, having this is certainly better than having a primary text with an editor's interpretation (violating WP:PRIMARY). I have however added a template showing we could do with an even better source for this. Alexbrn ( talk) 09:20, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
After looking a bit more at whether Waldorf education is "controversial" and adding stuff in this vein to the Article (see in particular the first note to the third para), I wonder if in fact it would be more accurate to state that "Waldorf eduction is highly controversial". That is the phrase used by a couple of good sources ... and looking into recent UK controversies (again, see new material I have added around the Pseudoscience section) I'm beginning to think the "highly" intensifier may be justified. I'm wavering ... thoughts? Alexbrn ( talk) 17:51, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
The de:Böhlau Verlag is a major academic publisher in Germany. It should clearly qualify as a reliable source. I have removed the relevant RS tags hgilbert ( talk) 18:11, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Here is the discussion in which several key arbitrators took part. One summarized the situation as follows:
I hope this clarifies the situation. hgilbert ( talk) 11:24, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
The Template:Main is used in several places in the article, but a number of the uses are incorrect. It's to be used when the article contains a summary and it links to a sub-article.
When a Wikipedia article is large, it is often rewritten in summary style. This template is used after the heading of the summary, to link to the sub-article that has been (or will be) summarised. ... This template is not to be used as a substitute for inline links or as a "see also". Its usage should be restricted to the purpose described hereinbefore.
The cases that are in error are: Anthroposophy, Pseudoscience and Humorism. One that is correct is Curriculum of the Waldorf schools since the Curriculum section is a summary of the Waldorf curriculum. I will change these cases to inline links. -- EPadmirateur ( talk) 01:34, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
There is a distinction between humorism and the four temperaments since the former is based on the ancient and medieval notion of the four bodily fluids and was used by physicians. The latter term is an interpretation or adaptation of this former idea applying to behaviors and personality traits. In anthroposophy and in Waldorf education, the latter concept is used and applied specifically to behaviors and personality traits. The term "humors" and the notion of the four bodily fluids is completely absent from Waldorf pedagogy. Associating the term "humorism" to Waldorf in the article, especially as the section heading, is completely incorrect. I will adjust the article accordingly. -- EPadmirateur ( talk) 01:51, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
There are now two separate sections, both referring to temperament. I suggest we merge them into a single section.
The Grant article is a pretty poor source; it sounds as if he never visited an actual school. This article should focus on WE as it is, rather than every comment Steiner made in a teacher's meeting. For example, there is no reason to believe that anyone actually recommended or recommends dietary measures to change temperament; Steiner cited the possibility of doing so, but did not suggest that anyone contact the parents to recommend this, or to implement it in any other way. See page 32, which is evidently Grant's source
Ullrich gives a more informed presentation. I've added material from his work and attempted to form a single description. It may be shot down, but Grant is really hopelessly superficial on the subject. hgilbert ( talk) 19:10, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
The Rist and Schneider article, which I've added as a reference but have not employed yet as a source, is also of high quality. hgilbert ( talk) 19:21, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
There are now two anthroposophy sections, a major one at the start of the "Pedagogy" section, and a very small one at the conclusion of the curriculum section. They overlap and probably should be merged. hgilbert ( talk) 10:09, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
The following is misleading: Anthroposophic educationalists assert that "all the norms and forms of their educational practice are systematically deduced from the cosmic anthropology of the master" (i.e. Rudolf Steiner). The context makes it appear as if educationalists used this terminology. Ullrich wrote the wording, not an educator, and the term "master" to refer to Steiner appears to be purely his own here; he does not claim that educationalists use this term.
The quote is accurate in wording but misleading in context. I would suggest replacing the ending with "...from the cosmic anthropology" of Steiner. hgilbert ( talk) 10:09, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
I have added the results of the PISA study in Austrian schools which balances the issues of elements of pseudoscience in science teaching. In fact, Waldorf students do well in the sciences compared to public schools.
I would also suggest that the sub-sub-heading for anthroposophy is redundant for this section. -- EPadmirateur ( talk) 19:57, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
I have to agree with hgilbert here. I said earlier: "It's just interesting, given the apparent infusion of pseudoscience in Waldorf science teaching, that (1) Waldorf students excel in science compared to public school students and (2) Waldorf teaching methods are recommended as a model for other schools." I have twice asked for balancing information be added to this section. I agree with hgilbert that omitting available information that balances the assertion that Waldorf teaches pseudoscience in the sciences is non-neutral WP:NPOV. -- EPadmirateur ( talk) 22:56, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
The section is not primarily "suggesting that a school does not have an effective science education program". That may be however what you primarily take from it (the COI lens in action again, revealing things as "good" or "bad" for Waldorf PR). The section primarily relates how some UK skeptics are criticizing some UK schools for teaching pseudoscience. People will take this in different ways — not everybody is a skeptic; some people will think this as a good thing. But even if your interpretation is justified, how is the PISA study related to the UK schools of today? Are you assuming the way things are taught in the UK in 2012 is exactly the same as the way things were taught in Austria in 2005? What you are proposing is to take one implication ("Steiner schools bad at science") and try and offset it with another implication ("but wait! Steiner schools good at science"). That is not encyclopedia writing, it's spin. Alexbrn ( talk) 08:45, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
In the light of the above conversation about the Pseudoscience section, let us consider a parallel case. How about this edit ...
In the "Origins and history" section mention is made of how Steiner spoke at Oxford. I think this serves to give a certain positive impression, lending Steiner a veneer of academic respectability by mentioning him in the context of a famous seat of learning. The section needs to be balanced. To do this I propose adding, after the Oxford paragraph, the following: "In modern times however, Steiner's reception by universities has been less welcoming. The dean of Stockholm university has labelled the Waldorf syllabus 'literature which conveys scientific inaccuracies that are worse than woolly; they are downright dangerous.'" If we don't do this, the article will send out a too-positive message about Univiersities' stance on Steiner.
In my view this edit would be a bad idea – although the case could be made for it, in the same way it's being made above. This kind of edit is torturing the article to impart a bogus kind of PR-style balance - and would end, if carried to its logical conclusion, with every non-bland fragment of the article being combined with every other. Alexbrn ( talk) 11:12, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
Prompted by discussion above, I am providing some details of the content and behaviour problems I see with this article. [Update 2012-12-14: Hgilbert has added some inline responses, for readability I have coloured these green]
Hgilbert has opposed/disrupted the use of authoritative sourced material with which he disagrees, on the basis of nothing more than his own opinion:
When Hgilbert has had edits reverted and it appears things are running against him, he has a tendency to contact known friendly editors to lend assistance. There is no evidence of him voluntarily using normal dispute resolution channels.
Despite being under ArbCom sanction and having a COI, Hgilbert edits aggressively (against the recommendation of the ArbCom ruling, and of WP:COIU).
One of the more subtle and insidious methods of advocacy is civil POV pushing, by which a sequence of apparently reasonable and innocuous edits become, on closer inspection and with cumulative effect, deleterious to the neutrality of an Article. Analyzing it inevitable requires descent to the level of minutiae, at or below phrase level. Here is an attempt to show how it has affected this article...
And so the work is complete. The original text is now qualified, distanced and attributed in a way that makes it stand out as slightly questionable in relation to the surrounding text ... just some academics' opinion, not fit to be stated in Wikipedia's voice. In a parallel passage Hgilbert took another attempt at spinning these educationalists' work by downgrading their statement further into something they merely "feel" [29]. Alexbrn ( talk) 20:08, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
I have started a science section in the curriculum area, since one editor feels that the pseudoscience subsection should not be sullied with material about science itself. hgilbert ( talk) 14:29, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
The structure section is badly organized at the moment, apparently out of a desire to highlight the anthroposophical foundations (and there primarily a critical comment about these). I don't want to get into an edit war over this, and unless a third editor wants to weigh in, I see no way forward here. hgilbert ( talk) 14:09, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
The BBC broadcast suggested that Steiner had unacceptable views, not (so far as I understand) that the Waldorf movement harbored these views. The Waldorf_education#Racism_controversy section reports this accurately, but the lede gives a false impression. Unless there is something I've missed in the broadcast, the lede should be corrected. hgilbert ( talk) 11:21, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
I don't think it clearly a case of OR at all, since as your yourself note, the the report is made in such a way "to encourage one to draw the connections": the intent and context are there: it's equivalent to having (in text) clauses with a colon between them. If you want to be absolutely bare about it once could say (rough) "the BBC reported on how the opening of Frome Steiner academy was causing controversy. They reported RS views of race (Schwartz/Weis quote), interviewed a commentator who said this was 'pretty much what the Nazis were pushing', asked the head teacher whether some of RS's views 'could be interpreted as racist' and interviewed a teacher concerned that student might come to accept all of RS's views". Now of source this needs to be summarized for the lede. Alexbrn ( talk) 09:03, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
The 2003 review of WS science was not published in a peer-reviewed publication; it fails the strict arbitration guidelines here. (It actually appeared in an anthroposophical publication, and so is specifically excluded.) hgilbert ( talk) 14:03, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
I looked up the authors of the study; Jelinek, at least, was already a professor of education at the time of its publication, and his co-author was either already or has since become a professor of child development. Given this, the study would qualify as a reliable source even if not published by a peer-reviewed journal or press. I therefore retract my objections to the use of the piece. It was an honest misunderstanding of the study's status, for which I apologize. hgilbert ( talk) 01:56, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
From Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Waldorf_education/Workshop#Reliable_sources: except with respect to information which is not controversial, material published in Anthroposophy related publications, especially by persons deeply involved in the movement such as teachers or theoreticians, are considered self published and thus not reliable sources. This seems clear. We are dealing here with information that is clearly controversial, and if sourced solely to Anthroposophy related publications clearly contravenes the guidelines. We can still make use of any material from that is reported in other, reliable sources, however, by citing to these sources, rather than the Anth. related pub's. hgilbert ( talk) 13:37, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
Also: The arbitrator's response to a suggestion that:
was:
Further: Clearly there is little third party peer reviewed information available, but that is what you need to work with. Fred Bauder 18:32, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Information may be included in articles if they can be verified by reference to reliable sources. As applied to this matter, except with respect to information which is not controversial, material published in Anthroposophy related publications, especially by persons deeply involved in the movement such as teachers or theoreticians, are considered self published and thus not reliable sources.
Prompted by a comment above about this article seeming like a "propaganda piece" I have been looking at the edit history of this article and come to the conclusion that there is a potentially significant conflict of interest issue here. In particular, User:Hgilbert (whose contributions are so substantive that he may be accounted a major shaping force for the article as it stands) is a Steiner School employee, who has been in discussion before about possible COI conflicts. These discussions have been deleted from his Talk page, accompanied by a misleading edit summary — "archive increasingly pointless discussion". The discussion was not in fact archived so far as I can see, but removed. In it, Hgilbert stated "[t]here are a lot of things I'm working to change in Waldorf education to bring it into the 21st century" which suggests his involvement is even more than being an employee and is very well advanced into COI territory. For this controversial topic, I propose that any editors with a COI interest (a) declare them, and (b) abide by Wikipedia policy in future by limiting the scope of their activity appropriately. I have added a COI tag to this article which can be removed when there is consensus to do so. Alexbrn ( talk) 19:49, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
In Wikipedia terms, not everyone has a COI. The problem with discussing this here is that it's right at the top of the page, so could interfere with the archival process. The "problem" is that at least one editor with a COI is continuing to edit here in a manner which goes against Wikipedia norms. The consequences of that are unnecessary heat on the talk page, suspicious patterns of editing/lobbying, and an article that is less good than it should be. COI is not measured by what is happening on the page, but by the personal circumstances of editors. Those being as they are, the tag is appropriate. I shall turn the question round to you: what is the "problem" of having a tag on this page which correctly describes both the situation of a prominent editor, and the genesis of the article? Why be less than correct? Alexbrn ( talk) 19:27, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
That would be a great question for HGilbert to answer. Let's see what he says. Anthroposophical sources aren't always easy to spot. Typing "McDermott Anthropsophy" into Google, for example, often reveals the Anthroposophical connections of the author to the content. Some of the not-so-controversial stuff is sourced to Anthros but shouldn't be - according to the arb com ruling. 76.170.168.122 ( talk) 10:38, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
The question was answered already; the talk page is being archived by a bot. (I do not normally answer a question that someone else has already fully addressed.) hgilbert ( talk) 22:05, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
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Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
User Wfsf added a bunch of material under studies (specifically relating to Gidley's work). Since some of the study's were funded by the Rudolf Steiner Schools Association of Australia those might fall outside the guidelines from ArbComm on article probation (specifically the use of sources that are not peer reviewed). I commented them out, if folks disagree go ahead and 'uncomment' them. -- Rocksanddirt ( talk) 01:07, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
I read through the whole article, and did not find any explicit criticism of the Steiner school system, despite it being heavily criticised by the mainstream. Surely this article should at least reference public opinion. It reads like it was written by their marketing department Npmontgomery ( talk) 10:36, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm also astounded at the lack of a 'Controversy' section. Steiner's views are controversial to say the least. Lucifer's presence is strong in electronic devices? etc. Max sang ( talk) 13:06, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2012/02/frome-steiner-academy-absurd-educational-quackery.html http://www.dcscience.net/?p=3528 http://www.dcscience.net/?p=3595 http://www.dcscience.net/?p=3853 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.98.252.198 ( talk) 15:55, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
OK, if you believe there are reliable sources then you need to take them up, one by one, here first, per WP:BRD. So let's discuss: the critical web sites are not reliable sources and blog posts are not reliable sources. Perhaps the only source you have is the Guardian article -- but that one may not be valid because of giving one report undue weight. You need to make the case here as to what the wording should be. Also, please be aware that you can't engage in original research in which you stitch together several sources to draw conclusions that are not present in any of the sources. -- EPadmirateur ( talk) 13:51, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
then do so here on the talk page. Otherwise, I object that using this article is placing undue emphasis in the reception section.In Australia concern have been raised in Victoria about the performance of Waldoff schools and efforts have been made to try to strengthen the regulatory framework around them
It's hard to imagine how this statement could be more fully supported from the sources. Please note that the article says "a positive reception from educationalists", not from disaffected parents. The primary cited reference has a direct, unambiguous statement that "Leading educators have a high regard for Waldorf education." and then cites three educationalists, Ernest Boyer, Sir Thomas Armstrong and Robert Peterkin, all of whom have strong statements of support for Waldorf. So how is the statement in the article a gross overstatement? In fact it understates the statement in the cited reference, which says leading educators. Do you have other educationalists who disagree? If so, please provide the reliably sourced references.the opening statement "Waldorf education has had a positive reception from educationalists" is simply not backed up by the facts provided and therefore represents a gross overstatement.
The statement about the positive reception is sourced to an WP:RS.
You quote WP:SELFPUB. By this standard, Waldorf publications may be used in this article for factual information (numbers of schools, etc.) It does not apply to external organizations such as Waldorfwatch, etc. commenting on Waldorf schools; this is not a self-description. You are seriously distorting this policy.
This link is about a party in Venezuela, and has no references to Waldorf education whatsoever. I am removing this and the section citing it.
Once again, blogs are simply inadequate sources, especially when they are from someone outside the field. Do reread WP:RS on this. hgilbert ( talk) 09:09, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
The information about Colquhoun's activity against homeopathy/anthroposophic medicine is irrelevant here. Also, a link to his blog was mistitled Times Education Supplement. I've cleaned up this part. hgilbert ( talk) 09:18, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
The Dutch study explicitly says that the educational results were not evaluated because the free (Waldorf) schools do not use the state assessments. Unless we make clear what was actually evaluated, then, this is a misleading judgement to include. It seems that they judged that 8 of the 45 schools had weak methods to evaluate the progress of their pupils. Is this a correct reading of the text? hgilbert ( talk) 19:19, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
As has been discussed here before, material particular to individual schools is appropriately placed in articles on those schools, not in the general article. If there is not yet an article about the school, feel free to create one. hgilbert ( talk) 18:30, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
I am confused here. I posted something about both of the publically funded Waldorf schools in Sonoma County, not an 'individual school,' and that information comes from official sources (so it is properly sourced), and the information provides information which contradicts the 'Official' Waldorf position. I do not believe that the 'official' statement of the Waldorf committee reflects their reality. Anti-immunization is so highly correlated with the Waldorf schools I have looked at as to be close to official policy. Waldorf schools in the US education as practiced in the US includes a substantial anti-immunization RichGibson ( talk) 18:30, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
The current text refers to a 'consensus statement' which is a dead link. This page http://www.waldorfanswers.org/QuestionsMore.htm refers to a growing anti-immunization movement within and outside of Waldorf schools, but again refers to the same dead link as the 'consensus statement' on vaccinations.
The article does not cite a verifiable source on the policy of Waldorf education towards vaccinations. The article does say "Studies have found Waldorf pupils to have a lower incidence of allergies and allergic-like symptoms, an effect which correlated with the extent to which they lived an "anthroposophic lifestyle" generally - in particular with reduced use of antibiotics, antipyretics, and measles, mumps and rubella vaccination" Which is a deep violation of NPOV - to assert a correlation when there is a deep selection bias in the cited studies.
I will replace the immunization section with something sourced unless it is properly sourced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RichGibson ( talk • contribs) 18:30, 15 June 2010
You removed the link to the same references used in the health study which say that a reduced use of the MMR vaccine is why Waldorf kids have fewer allergies from the section on immunizations? WTF?
Would data from the whole of California count for you? The private and public Waldorf schools in California have 'Personal Belief Exemption' rates of 12% to 88% of their kindergarten classes. Regardless of what the official position is - and I assert here, but would not do so in the article, that the 'official' position was a lie in order for Waldorf education to not appear like a complete cult - Waldorf students are grossly under vaccinated. That fact should be in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RichGibson ( talk • contribs) 21:10, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
My assertion in the article was about the actual vaccination rates in the two public waldorf schools in Sonoma county, supported by the state of california data. That was not 'original research' unless 'original research' means 'reading the numbers in a table. RichGibson ( talk) 20:54, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
I did not assert that it was official policy in my article edits. The Correlation here is highly significant, as is the incredible effort which goes into maintaining the lie that this correlation does not exist. RichGibson ( talk) 20:54, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
The big deal is that the article is making a specific health claim about allergies, and that the Anthroposophic 'lifestyle' is responsible, and that that lifestyle includes minimal use of the MMR vaccine.
Later under the immunization controversy section there is no discussion about the observable fact that the students who are at Anthroposophic schools are in fact under immunuzed. RichGibson ( talk) 20:54, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
The fact that the students in Waldorf schools in California have personal exemptions from immunizations at a higher rate than the state average is fact, verified by the State of California statistics which I ref'd. In Sonoma County the exemption rate is 52% for the private school, 71% for one charter school, and 88% for the other. The state average for personal exemptions is less than 2%. Moving to the rest of the state provides similar numbers. The schools can claim that this is not an official policy, but I did not argue that it is official policy, only that the numbers are true and that they are verifiable.
My edits have been deleted with the argument that the verifiable truth of individual school and county data is not relevant to a 'movement of over 1000 schools.' So from my point of view, true and verifiable information about a significant component of life in Waldorf schools is being suppressed on wikipedia. RichGibson ( talk) 16:48, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
Though this is a year later, I will say that I was a Waldorf parent and I vaccinated my children. There were parents who didn't, however. 19th century spiritualists did not believe in vaccination. Alfred Russel Wallace, the co-discoverer of evolution with Darwin, campaigned against it. Feelings against vaccinations are still widespread in countercultural and spiritualist groups like Waldorf and and also many others. My friend, who became a Waldorf teacher, took her sons to an anthroposophical pediatrician in at the Spring Valley, NY, Anthroposophical Community. He dealt in homeopathic medicine as an adjuct to mainstream medicine but to my surprise he persuaded her to vaccinate her two boys (she had been very opposed to it) against all but one of the main childhood diseases (don't remember which it was but it was one of the less fatal ones). I think the article should reflect that there is a range of opinion even among hard-core Anthroposophists. That said, although I am not religious and do believe in mainstream medicine, most of the time, we did not find Waldorf at all restrictive. To me it is the same as having standards. My daughter agreed, after 12 years of Waldorf, she was a national merit semi-finalist and went to a very selective college and is very happy with her Waldorf preparation. It affected our whole family for the better, and my older child was sorry he hadn't got to go to Waldorf (I didn't know about it then). I think they definitely do seek to educate "the whole child". Of course, Waldorf schools do vary a great deal and you might get some with some kooky people -- I don't know, but it certainly was not our experience. 173.77.104.175 ( talk) 04:20, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
I have made a small edit to this section. I removed the reference for the Townsend letter as its not a reputable journal, I updated the link to the JACI to the full text rather than an article discussing the text which made assertions that the paper did not. Following this I removed any reference to the MMR vaccine as the paper does not conclude that it has an effect of allergy (they give the lack of antibiotics and anti-pyretics the credit). The paper does say that the students had an increased rate of the Measles but considering the section of the wiki article devoted to vaccination this doesn't seem like the place to put in. Kirren of smeg ( talk) 12:33, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Vis a vis the Jaeckel quote: Though I believe the original text gathered the sense of the author's meaning, I have tried to match the article text more precisely to the exact quote. Rather than reverting, the IP user involved could make any adjustments s/he still feels are necessary. hgilbert ( talk) 17:58, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
The Mentor magazine article was copied into the article almost verbatim.
Though Waldorf schools were Euro-centric to begin with; today they have incorporated an increasingly wide range of cultural and religious traditions. Festivals play an important role in Waldorf schools. Festivals and celebrations that best meet the needs and traditions of the students in their particular school are followed. Waldorf theories and practices have been adapted by schools to the historical and cultural traditions of the surrounding communities. In fact, Waldorf schools located in regions where Jewish, Buddhist or Islamic traditions are dominant celebrate festivals drawn from these cultures.
Article text:
...but these schools are now incorporating an increasingly wide range of cultural and religious traditions. Schools located where Jewish, Buddhist, or Islamic traditions are dominant celebrate festivals drawn from these traditions.
This problem must be solved before the Mentor source is brought back into the article. Binksternet ( talk) 15:14, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
The "criticism of studies" section is 100% WP:Original research. In addition, the justification that someday references will be found to shore this up is absurd; WP editors are expected to find references to support assertions that are not common knowledge before adding these. (Otherwise anyone could add anything to any article with the justification that they would someday find citations to support this.) hgilbert ( talk) 00:21, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
- Note that many of the studies showing superior results (or simply different results) for students of Waldorf schools are unfortunately not scientifically controlled experiments.
- Unless the assignment of children to the either the "Waldorf" or "other" condition is random, it is possible that significant differences exist between the two groups of students that were not caused by the different schools (or in fact existed before the students' participation in the programs).
- Without random assignment (or at least some sort of control mechanism that can approximate it if true random assignment is not feasible), it is difficult to draw conclusions about the potential superiority of the Waldorf model.
- For instance, critics could still contend that any observed superiorities in the Waldorf students were actually caused by a third factor which simply correlates more strongly with families that choose to send their children to Waldorf schools than it does with the average population as a whole.
- (As noted above, educational successes of private Waldorf schools may partially reflect the social status of their students. [1])
- Critics could even claim that students who do well at Waldorf models would do significantly better under some other model, and only well-controlled empirical studies will be able to settle this issue.
- Note also, however, that the Waldorf model is not unique in receiving these criticisms, but shares them with other popular alternative models like Montessori.
I did have a chance to take a look at a lot of the materials in the studies section, and found that there are a few outstanding issues with how sources are being used:
Has some very nuances findings which are not accurately depicted in our use of the cite, for example: "Overall, there is a lack of rigorous research on the impact of Steiner school education on learning and achievement and little research which systematically compares Steiner and mainstream schools." and "The research studies reviewed also give a cumulative impression that Steiner schools tend to create positive and mutually supportive relationships in schools. However, as with the research on learning and achievement, studies tend to be small scale and there are insufficient rigorous comparative investigations of Steiner and mainstream schools." This may also be relevant to the section above.A UK Department for Education and Skills report noted significant differences in curriculum and pedagogical approach between Waldorf/Steiner and mainstream schools and suggested that each type of school could learn from the other type's strengths: in particular, that state schools could benefit from Waldorf education's [2] early introduction and approach to modern foreign languages; combination of block (class) and subject teaching for younger children; development of speaking and listening through an emphasis on oral work; good pacing of lessons through an emphasis on rhythm; emphasis on child development guiding the curriculum and examinations; approach to art and creativity; attention given to teachers’ reflective activity and heightened awareness (in collective child study for example); and collegial structure of leadership and management, including collegial study. Aspects of mainstream practice which could inform good practice in Waldorf schools included: management skills and ways of improving organizational and administrative efficiency; classroom management; work with secondary-school age children; and assessment and record keeping.
5 is not an RS for how it is being used for several different reasons. It's published through an university publisher, but otherwise not reviewed. Some of the results presented in it are based on absurdly small sample sizes without controls. The authors also make it clear that they are not neutrally on the subject. Most importantly however, what it's sourcing is only weakly supported by the text, and appears to randomly pick facts from it.A 2007 study in Sweden comparing Waldorf and state schools reported that Waldorf pupils were more likely to have a positive learning attitude, less likely to have passing tests as the goal of their learning, and had a "more in-depth study style" in higher education. They also showed more tolerant attitudes to minority groups and less tolerance of racist ideologies, were more involved with social and moral questions and were more likely to believe in the social efficacy of love, solidarity, and civil courage as opposed to legislation or police control. In addition, Waldorf students tended to wait longer before attending university. [3]: pp. 60-61
8 (Hether, Christine Anne, The moral reasoning of high school seniors from diverse educational settings, Ph.D. dissertation, Saybrook Graduate School and Research Center, 2001, 209 pages; AAT 3044032) is not a RS unless it was peer reviewed and published elsewhere, and PhD's from distance-learning programs are generally seen a problematic.An American study found that Waldorf-educated students scored significantly higher on a test of moral reasoning than students in public high schools and students in a religiously-affiliated high school. Waldorf students were also far more likely to volunteer opinions about the survey and research in general, suggesting possible improvements in the survey technique and offering new possibilities to resolve the moral dilemmas raised in the survey. [4]
Same thing goes for 6 (Freda Easton, The Waldorf impulse in education:Schools as communities that educate the whole child by integrating artistic and academic work, Ph.D. thesis, Columbia University Teachers College, 1995), and some of the things sourced to it are generally unencyclopedic: " Many students spoke of the kindness of their peers and of learning to think things through clearly for themselves, not to jump to conclusions, and to remain positive in the face of problems and independent of pressure from others to think as they do."A 1995 survey of U.S. Waldorf schools found that parents overall experienced the Waldorf schools as achieving their major aims for students, and described the education as one that "integrates the aesthetic, spiritual and interpersonal development of the child with rigorous intellectual development", preserving students' enthusiasm for learning so that they develop a better sense of self-confidence and self-direction. Some parents described upper grades teachers as overextended, without sufficient time to relate to parental needs and input, and wished for more open and reciprocal parent-school support. Both parents and students sometimes described colleges of teachers as being insular and unresponsive. [New paragraph] The students overall were positive about the school and its differences; experienced the school as a "community of friends"; and spoke of the opportunity to grow and develop through the broad range of activities offered, to learn when they were ready to learn, to develop imagination, and to come to understand the world as well as oneself. Many students spoke of the kindness of their peers and of learning to think things through clearly for themselves, not to jump to conclusions, and to remain positive in the face of problems and independent of pressure from others to think as they do. Improvements the students suggested included more after-school sports programs, more physical education classes, more preparation for standardized testing, a class in world politics and computer classes. Faculty, parents and students were united in expressing a desire to improve the diversity of the student body, especially by increasing representation of minority groups such as African-Americans and Hispanic Americans. [5]
85 (Sebastian Suggate, "Response to reading instruction and age related development", unpublished doctoral dissertation. Dept. of Psychology, Univ. of Otago, New Zealand. (2009). See summary at Learning & Development: Reading - Willing and able?) is similarly sourced to an unpublished dissertation, which contains an unreviewed primary study.A 2009 study comparing Waldorf and public school students in New Zealand found that the Waldorf students, who had no formal instruction in reading in pre-school or kindergarten, caught up in reading ability by around age 10, at which point there was "no difference in reading achievement between children who had been given early instruction in reading and those who had not". [6]
91 is a primary study and notes that there have been several contradictory findings particularly related to the MMR point. It's unreasonable to choose a single result from several contradictory ones, absent any particular evidence to support it.Studies have found Waldorf pupils to have a lower incidence of allergies and allergic-like symptoms, an effect which correlated with the extent to which they lived an "anthroposophic lifestyle" generally - in particular with reduced use of antibiotics, and antipyretics. Children who had received MMR vaccine showed an increased risk of rhinoconjunctivitis. [7]
To try to make this somewhat less confusing, I have expanded on my original comments and included the original context. (Some of the reference numbers will not match up here as a result). Please feel free to discuss them individually above, or in general below. a13ean ( talk) 17:00, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
Any thoughts? a13ean ( talk) 00:23, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
It would be helpful to seek a wider circle of opinion here to form consensus. We've been able to agree on several points (more precisely, there are areas where I've agreed with User:A13ean and made corresponding changes), but there are other areas where we are not reaching common ground. hgilbert ( talk) 20:14, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
A critique in the article was attributed to a blog posting by Colquhoun, who is a notable pharmacologist (and thus likely not a reliable source for an article on education anyway). On more careful examination it turns out that the blog posting is actually not his; it is a guest post that appears on his blog site. The true author has no standing as a reliable source whatsoever, and a guest posting on someone else's blog is not exactly an encouraging basis for an encyclopedia citation. I have removed the passage. hgilbert ( talk) 00:01, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
Siraj-Blatchford and Whitebread are idiosyncratic in describing Waldorf early childhood programs as emphasizing "non-manufactured" materials. The claim is unsourced and wildly inaccurate; obviously Waldorf early childhood programs use tables, chairs, buildings, cloths, cutlery, and probably thousands of other items that are manufactured. Siraj-Blatchford and Whitebread essentially critique the schools for not doing what they never claimed to do.
To see if there was some basis for their claim, I did a Google search on "non-manufactured" materials and Steiner or Waldorf; the only hit that comes up is a reference which uses Siraj-Blatchford and Whitebread as their source for the claim.
The claim is sourced to an otherwise excellent RS, but I would suggest that it is a bugbear better left out. How do others feel?
Also: I have moved this to early childhood, as the source is speaking of "Foundation Stage education", which applies to 3-5 year olds in Britain. hgilbert ( talk) 21:28, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
Hi, Alexbrn, in this edit you question that the Grace Chen source supports the statement that the Waldorf methodology encourages collaborative learning. At the end of the article, Chen states "some private schools, such as the Waldorf schools, already operate based upon collaborative reasoning". Chen earlier stated that "collaborative reasoning programs encourage students to become consistently active and personally accountable for their own evaluations and conclusions". This is presented in the context of and as part of "collaborative learning".
How does the WP article statement "present a leap from what the source actually says" -- that "Waldorf methodology encourages collaborative learning" is a leap from "Waldorf schools operate based on collaborative reasoning" in the context of collaborative learning?
Please discuss. In the meantime, I am removing the tag. -- EPadmirateur ( talk) 01:45, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
To assert any other interpretation is a leap of logic. -- EPadmirateur ( talk) 03:01, 29 November 2012 (UTC)While some private schools, such as the Waldorf schools, already operate based upon collaborative reasoning, the philosophy shows great promise for the future of public school classrooms.
This article reads like a propaganda piece for Steiner Schools. According to this article Steiner was a radical racist and believed in unconventional spirituality. One point it brings up is that reading is not taught to children until their adult teeth emerge because teaching reading is felt to interfere with the child's spiritual development. 128.135.39.147 ( talk) 15:59, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
The following recent addition to the article is stated as fact, whereas it is actually Carroll's opinion: However, it is likely that some of anthroposophy's weirder views will be passed-on in Waldorf education, such as Steiner's belief in the existence of Atlantis or his views on astral bodies, even though anthroposophy is not formally part of the curriculum.
I suggest that it would be more appropriate to revise it to reflect the fact that it is one person's opinion, as has done elsewhere in the article. hgilbert ( talk) 22:15, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
WP:SELFSOURCE states:
Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as: the material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim; it does not involve claims about third parties (such as people, organizations, or other entities); it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject; there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity; the article is not based primarily on such sources.
I will restore the Association of Waldorf Schools statement, as this is clearly an example of an organization stating its equal-opportunity policy, a normal thing for any organization to do, and this article is indeed about the Waldorf schools. hgilbert ( talk) 11:12, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
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I am puzzled by the Failed verification templates that have been added:
-- "Its methodology encourages collaborative learning." is cited to a source that says "Some private schools, such as the Waldorf schools, already operate based upon collaborative reasoning". How is this a failure in verification?
-- " learning is interdisciplinary, integrating practical, artistic, and conceptual elements" is cited to a source that says, "The school conception of education is reflected in a curriculum in which practical, artistic and academic learning are equally represented and integrated." I have added an additional citation supporting the term interdisciplinary (and the term holistic, appearing earlier in the sentence). hgilbert ( talk) 01:26, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
The problem now is that it is apparent the source does not support the text, since the source describes a single school, the curriculum of which is merely "heavily influenced" by Steiner, and for which "it is open to speculation whether the form of curriculum articulation exemplified here could be implemented independently of Steiner's theory". Such a caveated description of a single school just isn't good enough as a source for an essentialized description of Steiner education in general, stated as fact. A further problem is that the source is authored in whole or in part by "persons deeply involved in the movement such as teachers or theoreticians", which contravenes the AC ruling on sources. I have therefore removed this material. Alexbrn ( talk) 10:43, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
Hi Alexbrn, you have apparently removed a citation to a Ph.D. dissertation from the accredited Saybrook Graduate School and Research Center here, apparently because it also appears on the Internet on the "Waldorf Library" web site. Wherever else this source has been published does not negate the fact that it is a WP:RS that does not conflict with the arbitration committee's restrictions, since it comes initially from a non-anthroposophical source. I am going to reverse your edit. It seems you are stretching considerably the interpretation of the arbitration committee. -- EPadmirateur ( talk) 05:35, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
I agree. hgilbert ( talk) 11:05, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
I am removing the text from the lede "It has a humanistic approach to pedagogy and learning is interdisciplinary", which (as in the case discussed earlier) does not appear to be supported by the source. I have two meta-questions which maybe long-standing editors here can help me with:
Alexbrn ( talk) 11:00, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
I would also like to be included among the editors here who are trying to improve this article and providing sources to support statements in the lead and elsewhere, if editors feel that specific statements and characterizations need to be sourced. I would agree with Hgilbert that the characterizations are well-sourced and are generally held among those who are familiar with Waldorf education, as they appear in many sources. However, if the characterizations sound implausible or overly positive to the general reader then they can be sourced. If there are negative characterizations in reliable sources, they need to be included as well for a neutral point of view. -- EPadmirateur ( talk) 19:56, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
I suggest that we make an effort to move supportive text, with footnotes, to the body (for example about charter, public and homeschooling Waldorf environments). This would allow us to remove footnotes from the lede in many cases, improving flow. hgilbert ( talk) 15:36, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
As far as I can see, WP:INTEXT nowhere suggests that everything but simple facts needs citation. Here are some relevant standards I find there:
(The last is from NPOV)
In this article, essentially every statement, including those of simple fact, has been challenged by one editor or another over time. (An example of this is the opening statement that Waldorf education was founded by Rudolf Steiner; an editor became very aggressive challenging this at one point, and thus there is a footnote for what is clearly a simple statement of fact.) The footnotes have thus proliferated, and perhaps this process refined the article in some ways. hgilbert ( talk) 13:46, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
If the Dan Dugan-Judy Daar concerns are included, there need to be balancing, WP:RS statements disputing the religious nature of Waldorf education and/or anthroposophy, for WP:NPOV. Dugan and Daar make statements that are strongly disputed by Waldorf proponents. -- EPadmirateur ( talk) 20:08, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
I inserted one, as outlined in discussion above, but note the edit has been reverted by User:Hgilbert – who, as a COI-tainted editor under ArbCom sanction needs to be extremely careful here. What's the problem? Everything mentioned in the para is mentioned in the body, and stated plainly. If the para "needs work" then start on that work, don't revert — that appears to me like an aggressive edit. Alexbrn ( talk) 18:03, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Yes. From WP:Bold: "Don't get upset if your bold edits get deleted." Sometimes it's better to work something through in the talk space. hgilbert ( talk) 23:31, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
The following needs work:
I question whether every one of these controversies justifies a place in the lede, and if so, does every positive affirmation also justify a place there? NPOV would require balance here (see WP:Criticism). hgilbert ( talk) 18:34, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Alternative (needs work still):
Waldorf pedagogy has been critiqued for not embracing formal instruction in reading, mathematics, and information technology in early childhood programs; the value of doing so remains controversial amongst literacy experts. Some Waldorf schools have been criticized for having low immunization rates for certain vaccinations; the schools assert that this is due to individual decisions by parents, rather than school policy. A number of critics have suggested that Waldorf schools include spiritual or religious elements; the schools have denied they are religious in nature, and in the United States have successfully defended that position in court.
hgilbert (
talk)
18:53, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
I am not promoting myself or my institutional affiliation, which is a particular school. No personal or financial advantage whatsoever can possibly accrue to me through editing this article. I have worked with many editors here to ensure that all standpoints represented in RSs are represented. I have added explicitly negative evaluations; for example, "The pedagogy's reliance on a single theory of child development has also been questioned and some Waldorf teachers' uncritical attitude toward anthroposophy criticized.[17]" and "The Dutch Inspectorate of Education reported that a significantly higher percentage of Waldorf elementary schools than state elementary schools visited were judged weak or very weak in the following areas: providing differentiated instruction and lesson plans, the curriculum meeting primary goals in mathematics and language arts, and pupil assessment". (There are others, as well.)
You appear to me to have a marked bias; you have objected to apparently non-evaluative/objective descriptors that are sourced in multiple academic citations (e.g. interdisciplinary), but are ready to include highly evaluative/subjective descriptors (e.g. controversial) sourced in a single citation drawn from a news article.
You keep turning substantive disagreements, on which I have repeatedly compromised, into personal questions over what you claim to be a COI. I will not remove the "W.e. is controversial" statement, but I believe it to be ridiculous -- there are certainly aspects that are controversial, but many aspects are not, and blanket statements are generally less helpful than differentiated/nuanced descriptors. hgilbert ( talk) 11:50, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
I am looking at this document cited in the Article and notice is is headed "not for publication" (it is published on the waldorfanswers.org site, which is a bit iffy isn't it?). Does anybody know whether this should be being reproduced on WP? It's obviously handy to have. Meanwhile, I'll see if I can find a new story verifying the fact of this legal outcome. Alexbrn ( talk) 13:13, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
I've found a press release which, being from an established law firm, is a reasonably good secondary source, and used that. I also replaced the text in the article based on the new source — what was there before (why does this not surprise me?) was slightly misdirecting in that it implied the judge had reached a conclusion based on evidence surrounding the subject in general, rather than the evidence presented at trial in particular (of which, incidentally, he seems rather contemptuous – particularly of that presented by the plaintiff). Alexbrn ( talk) 08:32, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Normally a press release would be a bit suspect, and since this once comes from the lawyers defending the case this may even be COI-tainted. However, I think that law firms have to show exceptional care in their public statements, and of course their output is legally vetted ... therefore any legal commentary they offer is highly likely to be careful and accurate. In any case, having this is certainly better than having a primary text with an editor's interpretation (violating WP:PRIMARY). I have however added a template showing we could do with an even better source for this. Alexbrn ( talk) 09:20, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
After looking a bit more at whether Waldorf education is "controversial" and adding stuff in this vein to the Article (see in particular the first note to the third para), I wonder if in fact it would be more accurate to state that "Waldorf eduction is highly controversial". That is the phrase used by a couple of good sources ... and looking into recent UK controversies (again, see new material I have added around the Pseudoscience section) I'm beginning to think the "highly" intensifier may be justified. I'm wavering ... thoughts? Alexbrn ( talk) 17:51, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
The de:Böhlau Verlag is a major academic publisher in Germany. It should clearly qualify as a reliable source. I have removed the relevant RS tags hgilbert ( talk) 18:11, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Here is the discussion in which several key arbitrators took part. One summarized the situation as follows:
I hope this clarifies the situation. hgilbert ( talk) 11:24, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
The Template:Main is used in several places in the article, but a number of the uses are incorrect. It's to be used when the article contains a summary and it links to a sub-article.
When a Wikipedia article is large, it is often rewritten in summary style. This template is used after the heading of the summary, to link to the sub-article that has been (or will be) summarised. ... This template is not to be used as a substitute for inline links or as a "see also". Its usage should be restricted to the purpose described hereinbefore.
The cases that are in error are: Anthroposophy, Pseudoscience and Humorism. One that is correct is Curriculum of the Waldorf schools since the Curriculum section is a summary of the Waldorf curriculum. I will change these cases to inline links. -- EPadmirateur ( talk) 01:34, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
There is a distinction between humorism and the four temperaments since the former is based on the ancient and medieval notion of the four bodily fluids and was used by physicians. The latter term is an interpretation or adaptation of this former idea applying to behaviors and personality traits. In anthroposophy and in Waldorf education, the latter concept is used and applied specifically to behaviors and personality traits. The term "humors" and the notion of the four bodily fluids is completely absent from Waldorf pedagogy. Associating the term "humorism" to Waldorf in the article, especially as the section heading, is completely incorrect. I will adjust the article accordingly. -- EPadmirateur ( talk) 01:51, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
There are now two separate sections, both referring to temperament. I suggest we merge them into a single section.
The Grant article is a pretty poor source; it sounds as if he never visited an actual school. This article should focus on WE as it is, rather than every comment Steiner made in a teacher's meeting. For example, there is no reason to believe that anyone actually recommended or recommends dietary measures to change temperament; Steiner cited the possibility of doing so, but did not suggest that anyone contact the parents to recommend this, or to implement it in any other way. See page 32, which is evidently Grant's source
Ullrich gives a more informed presentation. I've added material from his work and attempted to form a single description. It may be shot down, but Grant is really hopelessly superficial on the subject. hgilbert ( talk) 19:10, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
The Rist and Schneider article, which I've added as a reference but have not employed yet as a source, is also of high quality. hgilbert ( talk) 19:21, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
There are now two anthroposophy sections, a major one at the start of the "Pedagogy" section, and a very small one at the conclusion of the curriculum section. They overlap and probably should be merged. hgilbert ( talk) 10:09, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
The following is misleading: Anthroposophic educationalists assert that "all the norms and forms of their educational practice are systematically deduced from the cosmic anthropology of the master" (i.e. Rudolf Steiner). The context makes it appear as if educationalists used this terminology. Ullrich wrote the wording, not an educator, and the term "master" to refer to Steiner appears to be purely his own here; he does not claim that educationalists use this term.
The quote is accurate in wording but misleading in context. I would suggest replacing the ending with "...from the cosmic anthropology" of Steiner. hgilbert ( talk) 10:09, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
I have added the results of the PISA study in Austrian schools which balances the issues of elements of pseudoscience in science teaching. In fact, Waldorf students do well in the sciences compared to public schools.
I would also suggest that the sub-sub-heading for anthroposophy is redundant for this section. -- EPadmirateur ( talk) 19:57, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
I have to agree with hgilbert here. I said earlier: "It's just interesting, given the apparent infusion of pseudoscience in Waldorf science teaching, that (1) Waldorf students excel in science compared to public school students and (2) Waldorf teaching methods are recommended as a model for other schools." I have twice asked for balancing information be added to this section. I agree with hgilbert that omitting available information that balances the assertion that Waldorf teaches pseudoscience in the sciences is non-neutral WP:NPOV. -- EPadmirateur ( talk) 22:56, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
The section is not primarily "suggesting that a school does not have an effective science education program". That may be however what you primarily take from it (the COI lens in action again, revealing things as "good" or "bad" for Waldorf PR). The section primarily relates how some UK skeptics are criticizing some UK schools for teaching pseudoscience. People will take this in different ways — not everybody is a skeptic; some people will think this as a good thing. But even if your interpretation is justified, how is the PISA study related to the UK schools of today? Are you assuming the way things are taught in the UK in 2012 is exactly the same as the way things were taught in Austria in 2005? What you are proposing is to take one implication ("Steiner schools bad at science") and try and offset it with another implication ("but wait! Steiner schools good at science"). That is not encyclopedia writing, it's spin. Alexbrn ( talk) 08:45, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
In the light of the above conversation about the Pseudoscience section, let us consider a parallel case. How about this edit ...
In the "Origins and history" section mention is made of how Steiner spoke at Oxford. I think this serves to give a certain positive impression, lending Steiner a veneer of academic respectability by mentioning him in the context of a famous seat of learning. The section needs to be balanced. To do this I propose adding, after the Oxford paragraph, the following: "In modern times however, Steiner's reception by universities has been less welcoming. The dean of Stockholm university has labelled the Waldorf syllabus 'literature which conveys scientific inaccuracies that are worse than woolly; they are downright dangerous.'" If we don't do this, the article will send out a too-positive message about Univiersities' stance on Steiner.
In my view this edit would be a bad idea – although the case could be made for it, in the same way it's being made above. This kind of edit is torturing the article to impart a bogus kind of PR-style balance - and would end, if carried to its logical conclusion, with every non-bland fragment of the article being combined with every other. Alexbrn ( talk) 11:12, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
Prompted by discussion above, I am providing some details of the content and behaviour problems I see with this article. [Update 2012-12-14: Hgilbert has added some inline responses, for readability I have coloured these green]
Hgilbert has opposed/disrupted the use of authoritative sourced material with which he disagrees, on the basis of nothing more than his own opinion:
When Hgilbert has had edits reverted and it appears things are running against him, he has a tendency to contact known friendly editors to lend assistance. There is no evidence of him voluntarily using normal dispute resolution channels.
Despite being under ArbCom sanction and having a COI, Hgilbert edits aggressively (against the recommendation of the ArbCom ruling, and of WP:COIU).
One of the more subtle and insidious methods of advocacy is civil POV pushing, by which a sequence of apparently reasonable and innocuous edits become, on closer inspection and with cumulative effect, deleterious to the neutrality of an Article. Analyzing it inevitable requires descent to the level of minutiae, at or below phrase level. Here is an attempt to show how it has affected this article...
And so the work is complete. The original text is now qualified, distanced and attributed in a way that makes it stand out as slightly questionable in relation to the surrounding text ... just some academics' opinion, not fit to be stated in Wikipedia's voice. In a parallel passage Hgilbert took another attempt at spinning these educationalists' work by downgrading their statement further into something they merely "feel" [29]. Alexbrn ( talk) 20:08, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
I have started a science section in the curriculum area, since one editor feels that the pseudoscience subsection should not be sullied with material about science itself. hgilbert ( talk) 14:29, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
The structure section is badly organized at the moment, apparently out of a desire to highlight the anthroposophical foundations (and there primarily a critical comment about these). I don't want to get into an edit war over this, and unless a third editor wants to weigh in, I see no way forward here. hgilbert ( talk) 14:09, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
The BBC broadcast suggested that Steiner had unacceptable views, not (so far as I understand) that the Waldorf movement harbored these views. The Waldorf_education#Racism_controversy section reports this accurately, but the lede gives a false impression. Unless there is something I've missed in the broadcast, the lede should be corrected. hgilbert ( talk) 11:21, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
I don't think it clearly a case of OR at all, since as your yourself note, the the report is made in such a way "to encourage one to draw the connections": the intent and context are there: it's equivalent to having (in text) clauses with a colon between them. If you want to be absolutely bare about it once could say (rough) "the BBC reported on how the opening of Frome Steiner academy was causing controversy. They reported RS views of race (Schwartz/Weis quote), interviewed a commentator who said this was 'pretty much what the Nazis were pushing', asked the head teacher whether some of RS's views 'could be interpreted as racist' and interviewed a teacher concerned that student might come to accept all of RS's views". Now of source this needs to be summarized for the lede. Alexbrn ( talk) 09:03, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
The 2003 review of WS science was not published in a peer-reviewed publication; it fails the strict arbitration guidelines here. (It actually appeared in an anthroposophical publication, and so is specifically excluded.) hgilbert ( talk) 14:03, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
I looked up the authors of the study; Jelinek, at least, was already a professor of education at the time of its publication, and his co-author was either already or has since become a professor of child development. Given this, the study would qualify as a reliable source even if not published by a peer-reviewed journal or press. I therefore retract my objections to the use of the piece. It was an honest misunderstanding of the study's status, for which I apologize. hgilbert ( talk) 01:56, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
From Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Waldorf_education/Workshop#Reliable_sources: except with respect to information which is not controversial, material published in Anthroposophy related publications, especially by persons deeply involved in the movement such as teachers or theoreticians, are considered self published and thus not reliable sources. This seems clear. We are dealing here with information that is clearly controversial, and if sourced solely to Anthroposophy related publications clearly contravenes the guidelines. We can still make use of any material from that is reported in other, reliable sources, however, by citing to these sources, rather than the Anth. related pub's. hgilbert ( talk) 13:37, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
Also: The arbitrator's response to a suggestion that:
was:
Further: Clearly there is little third party peer reviewed information available, but that is what you need to work with. Fred Bauder 18:32, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Information may be included in articles if they can be verified by reference to reliable sources. As applied to this matter, except with respect to information which is not controversial, material published in Anthroposophy related publications, especially by persons deeply involved in the movement such as teachers or theoreticians, are considered self published and thus not reliable sources.
Prompted by a comment above about this article seeming like a "propaganda piece" I have been looking at the edit history of this article and come to the conclusion that there is a potentially significant conflict of interest issue here. In particular, User:Hgilbert (whose contributions are so substantive that he may be accounted a major shaping force for the article as it stands) is a Steiner School employee, who has been in discussion before about possible COI conflicts. These discussions have been deleted from his Talk page, accompanied by a misleading edit summary — "archive increasingly pointless discussion". The discussion was not in fact archived so far as I can see, but removed. In it, Hgilbert stated "[t]here are a lot of things I'm working to change in Waldorf education to bring it into the 21st century" which suggests his involvement is even more than being an employee and is very well advanced into COI territory. For this controversial topic, I propose that any editors with a COI interest (a) declare them, and (b) abide by Wikipedia policy in future by limiting the scope of their activity appropriately. I have added a COI tag to this article which can be removed when there is consensus to do so. Alexbrn ( talk) 19:49, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
In Wikipedia terms, not everyone has a COI. The problem with discussing this here is that it's right at the top of the page, so could interfere with the archival process. The "problem" is that at least one editor with a COI is continuing to edit here in a manner which goes against Wikipedia norms. The consequences of that are unnecessary heat on the talk page, suspicious patterns of editing/lobbying, and an article that is less good than it should be. COI is not measured by what is happening on the page, but by the personal circumstances of editors. Those being as they are, the tag is appropriate. I shall turn the question round to you: what is the "problem" of having a tag on this page which correctly describes both the situation of a prominent editor, and the genesis of the article? Why be less than correct? Alexbrn ( talk) 19:27, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
That would be a great question for HGilbert to answer. Let's see what he says. Anthroposophical sources aren't always easy to spot. Typing "McDermott Anthropsophy" into Google, for example, often reveals the Anthroposophical connections of the author to the content. Some of the not-so-controversial stuff is sourced to Anthros but shouldn't be - according to the arb com ruling. 76.170.168.122 ( talk) 10:38, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
The question was answered already; the talk page is being archived by a bot. (I do not normally answer a question that someone else has already fully addressed.) hgilbert ( talk) 22:05, 30 December 2012 (UTC)