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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
User:Dugaru left the following comment under the "Waldensian Origin Story" section. Moved to here. -- Stbalbach 01:53, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
The gift shop of the Old North Church in Boston has a sign at the back that says it was originally a chapel/church for a group of German Waldensians who settled in Boston. There's a statue of Saint Francis there, which I was surprised to see anywhere other than a Catholic Church, but I guess Waldo admired Francis and his teachings. I don't remember exactly what the sign said, but anyone who could confirm this coulod add Boston as a settling place for Waldensians.
In cleaning up Category:Christianity I came across Vaudoir, which seems to cover substantially the same topic as this article, with a slightly differing subset of details. - choster 20:51, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Agree: No reason not to combine. (I'm a doctoral student in ministry)-- LanceHaverkamp 22:53, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Vaudois ordinarily refers to dissenting Christians that lived in the Cottian alps that straddle modern day France and Italy. Descendants of these people generally participate as Waldensians in Italy and abroad and claim the historic valleys as the historic homeland of their families.
Today Waldensians derive from all regions of Italy and the Rio de la Plata region of South America. Even more, there are many Waldensian immigrants who have found a spiritual home in Presbyterian and other Reformed Protestant churches of North America.
It seems to me that Vaudois would be a useful stand alone subject that is somehow linked from the Waldensian page. A simple merge would miss some of the distinctions.
I am a member of the American Waldensian Society ( http://www.waldensian.org/ ).
Agree I disagree with the above commentator no distinction is made in French- Vaudois is just the French word for Waldensians. It is silly to have two articles for things that are the same. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 01:30, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be a large history in French here http://www.regard.eu.org/Livres.11/Janavel/01.html which seems to contain lots of information which is not found here.
I take it that some of the "external links" have actually been used as references. It would be very nice to have a clue of what came from where. I am specifically asking for a citation for the "Old Waldensian Church of Anabaptists". I cannot find any online mention independent of Wikipedia, so presumably a print source was used and should be named. - Jmabel | Talk 01:31, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
The Protestant Alliance organizes yearly trips to the Waldensian Valleys with good lectures and sight seeing. (tel +44 (0)1525 712348, 77 Ampthill Road, Flitwick, Bedfordshire, UK) DFH 13:20, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I’m moving the sentence here because I can’t make sense of it in a couple of ways. The context was the early thirteenth century, but the Humiliati were still around at the Catholic Reformation, if our article on them is to be trusted. Secondly I can’t quite work out what the second part of the sentence is intended to mean. Thirdly what do we mean by thirteenth-century Lombards? Something to do with the Lombard League could definitely make sense, but it needs clarifying. — Ian Spackman 02:55, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I recall seeing some church labelled Waldensian in Italy (I think). Are you sure they disappeared? -- Error
DiscoverLife, the comment you replied is two years old, but it is still true. I have been in a struggle to throw out much POV nonsense from this article and cite as much as I can. If you have established a fact from another source, New Advent makes for easy citing since it is public domain and on the internet, but it almost 100 years old and written with a strong POV that few people hold anymore and is improper for wiki most of the time.
If you think the article needs help now, you should have seen it a week ago. I can't agree more that this article needs MUCH more info on the modern Church and I restructered it recently to try to encourage development in that direction. I also agree it should be cited from Waldensian sources if possible. I look forward to seeing more progress here. Thank you for your help. -- SECisek 05:18, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
...condemned for translating literally parts of the Bible which were deemed heretical by the Church.
This is startling. I was not aware that the Church ever regarded any part of the Bible as heretical.— Copey 2 05:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Which church? Lutherans once regarded the Epistle of James as possibly being heretical (because it says faith without works is dead). The Church also once considered Revelations as heresy, originally placing the Shepherd of Hermas in its place. The wording above looks a little odd - like it was translated from some other language - it could be that they meant to write ...condemned for translating parts of the Bible literally, an act which was deemed heretical by the church. Clinkophonist 19:07, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Not so odd as to mark the writer as a non-native speaker, I think. Literal translation of parts of the Bible might be an issue; translating non-canonical books and including them in scripture is another; it's this conflation of the two notions that is difficult to fathom. If the writer reads this, could he/she please rewrite this section more clearly?
Okay, yes, Eusebius regarded 2 Peter as spurious and the jury was still out on Revelation (NB, no final -s). And yes, Luther regarded James as a right strawy epistle. But neither of these views applies to the 12th century. I believe some sections of the ancient church regarded the Shepherd as scripture, but I don't believe this was ever a mainstream view. I certainly can't see in what meaningful sense it could have been in the "place" of Revelation. Do you mean it was at the end of the NT? – Copey 2 13:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
With regards to the biblical translations. Are you sure there is not some confusion with the Poor men of Metz, a group in France who translated biblical texts during the late 12th century? The Waldnes (or Poor Men of Lyons) have not, to my knowlege, produced a venacularised bible.
This data is not accurate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians#Historical_organization
It comes from a Catholic encyclopedia. The Catholic church whiped out millions of Waldensians during the Inquisition. They should not be allowed to continue to malign them making them look like cults.
Wow.
Check out these videos on this page: http://www.theloudcry.net/arrabito.html The ones called: "Lost Pages of Christianity", parts 1, 2, and 3.
Rush4hire 07:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Also, please note that for NPOV purposes, the opinion of Ellen G. White on the 7th day sabbath is already clearly stated in the Later history section. -- SECisek 08:42, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
This misunderstanding about the dating of the La Nobla Leçon is due to two lines in the poem where it reads:
The French philologist
François Juste Marie Raynouard was the first (and only person) to attribute this document to year 1100 based on those lines. But,
Henry Bradshaw decided to verify himself this documents, and lo! On the gap left by the erased part, one can still read with help of a magnifier:
The CCCC stands for 400, and the caligraphy matches with the symbol elswhere in the document. In context, this number is not a dating for the poem, but a prophetic warning. Also, later copies of this poem always read 1400. You can see with your own eyes in microfiche at the IDC
I hope it has been settled now.
-- Leonardo Alves 16:10, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Some researchers argue that the group has existed since the time of the apostles, a claim that is disputed by some modern scholarship. Whoever wrote this sentence could greatly improve it by adding names - which researchers and what modern scholarship? Nitpyck ( talk) 20:12, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
Why is this article deemed to be within the scope of Wikipedia:WikiProject Calvinism ? The Waldenses predate the Reformation. DFH 11:08, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Evidently, the history of the Vaudois/Waldenses includes significant interaction with the later Calvinist movement, to the point where many Waldensian groups eventually came to be counted among the ranks of the Calvinists in various parts of Europe and later in early America. This need not imply that Waldensian = Calvinist, only that the histories of each movement have included "cross pollination" with the other to a notable degree. Furthermore, the tone used by John Calvin himself in his prefactory letter to Francis I of France in his magnum opus ''The Institutes of the Christian Religion'', may be taken to reflect a belief by the author that his critique of certain current trends and dogmas in the Roman Church (and the same critique from his Protestant colleagues) was hardly novel and without pedigree. This is not elaborated upon in his text, but it would be rather absurd to think that a learned man like Calvin -- a Picard by birth who eventually settled in Geneva -- would not have had at least some general knowledge of the Waldenses and their history. Thus one can conclude that an encyclopaedic treatment of Calvinism should include at least passing reference to the pre-Reformation Waldensian movement of France, Switzerland, Italy, et al. Abdiel standing 16:35, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Is there any historical reason for preferring the non-literal translation of the book mentioned in this section of the writing "Summa de Catharis et Pauperibus de Lugduno" (roughly) "Of the Sects of Modern Heretics" (1254) ? Literally, the title might be translated "Summary Concerning the Cathars and Paupers of Lyon." Ray921 ( talk) 04:41, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
Hi Ian, I'm trying to add a little balance to this article by mentioning that the founding date is "disputed" because there is a dispute between Catholic and Protestants on this subject. However you seem to take quite an offense to this. If as you suggest there is an original research in what I added, I encourage you to go ahead and point this out here. Noting that the founding is disputed, which is 100% true, seems to be more neutral than stating a one-sided position. You're welcome to take this to the admins if you so desire. Perhaps a third party on this would be beneficial, however I think we can work together to make this a good article showing both positions.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Willfults ( talk • contribs)
I deleted this statement:
Many, both Catholics and Protestants, seem to agree that the Waldensians were against pedobaptism. Some of their 13th century accusers say they were opposed to or dropped many other sacraments as well. This, combined with their disregard for ecclesiastical authority, looks like some substantive doctrinal differences, in both their ecclesiology and in their sacramental theology. Wesley 17:02 Dec 10, 2002 (UTC)
Having read the article, I am still confused about Waldensian doctrine. The main doctrinal information I found was buried under one of the other subheadings. Might I suggest a reorganization of the article, to have an early subheading titled "Doctrines and Practices" or something like that? The current structure is devoted mostly to history and origins which, in my mind, is fine but should incorporate a summation of their key beliefs.
Compare the article on "Lollards" to see an example of what I am suggesting. -- Bonbga 17:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
This. I came to this article to find out how they differed from the Catholic Church of the time and found nothing on what their doctrines were when the movement was founded. Xt828 ( talk) 11:03, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
The Waldensians Or Vaudois are not Protestant. They were never apart of the Catholic church to protest it. Read "Cross and Crown" put out by Local Bible Publishers [2]. It gives the beginning of the Catholic Church as well as the Vaudois. (this unsigned comment was made by user Embroidery who has no other contribution to WP)
There is no denying that the Waldensians self identify as Protestants. I reworked. I also don't think it is fair to judge a source based off of it title. Are you famillar with the work? -- SECisek 08:04, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Responding to the first (misinformed) unsigned comment at the top of the section (made by user Embroidery who has no other contribution to WP): OF COURSE the Vaudois are Protestant. They are even THE FIRST PROTESTANT MOVEMENT before all the others: before the English Lollards, the Hussites, and finally the Lutherans and the Calvinists, etc. (Ain't gonna list here all the Protestant movements but it is worth listing those who existed BEFORE the 16th c. Reformation). It is correct that they themselves did not set themselves apart willingly, they only wanted, originally, to reform the Church from the inside, but the Catholic church by rejecting them made them into the first Protestant movement. The same with the Lollards, the Hussites. Even Luther did not start his own Church until he became convinced that the Catholic Church could not reform. It should be made clear in the article (if a clear statement to that effect in a reference work can be found) that the Vaudois were the FIRST Protestant movement. Of course some people may quibble with the term "Protestant" and argue that term can only be applied from Luther's Reformation on, but I disagree. Contact Basemetal here 18:01, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
The paragraph mentioning this alleged group should be removed because no reliable source attests their historical existence. The only mention of it is this self-published author. On Google, all references are copies from the wikipedia. Therefore, it should be deleted. -- Dagglio ( talk) 12:42, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
It would be useful, in order to stress the importance of the Vaudois movement in the context of the early stages of European Reformation movements (Lollards, Hussites, etc), to state explicitly in this article that the Vaudois formed indeed historically the first Protestant movement. Of course this statement has to be backed with a reliable source but I'm convinced there are such sources out there because it is most likely this statement is in fact correct. If you do find a statement to that effect in a reliable source please add it to the article. Thanks. Contact Basemetal here 18:11, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
So interesting mathematical probability discounts the sect starting in the late 12th century as the persecution lasted for nearly 500 years. I also find it strange that Peter Waldo vanished without a trace and all we have is a signed statement declaring his Catholic vows — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.166.75.87 ( talk) 14:40, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Fact is that the high independence of the communities, lay preaching, voluntary poverty and strict adherence to Bible are among the treats that allow to do such an assumptions. Furthermore, Peter Waldo as being credited with providing to Europe the first translation of the Bible in a 'modern tongue' outside of Latin is definitely a highly protestant asset. Its been and is of importance, as differences between Protestants and Catholics refers to Ecclesiology, and the Waldesian strive for their own church was taken to prove an ancient origin of protestantism as true interpretation of the faith. On that base, the German Protestants have been helping the Italien protestant minorities by aid, loans, exchange of priesters and communities and supportin legal and theological issues is a continuous story since the 17th century. The 1948 centenary festivitations of the Savoy civil rights declaration have been used by the EKD (top level) to allow for German Italian reconcialiation after WWI, with waldensian delegates pioneering. So far for that. Serten II ( talk) 14:18, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
User:Dugaru left the following comment under the "Waldensian Origin Story" section. Moved to here. -- Stbalbach 01:53, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
The gift shop of the Old North Church in Boston has a sign at the back that says it was originally a chapel/church for a group of German Waldensians who settled in Boston. There's a statue of Saint Francis there, which I was surprised to see anywhere other than a Catholic Church, but I guess Waldo admired Francis and his teachings. I don't remember exactly what the sign said, but anyone who could confirm this coulod add Boston as a settling place for Waldensians.
In cleaning up Category:Christianity I came across Vaudoir, which seems to cover substantially the same topic as this article, with a slightly differing subset of details. - choster 20:51, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Agree: No reason not to combine. (I'm a doctoral student in ministry)-- LanceHaverkamp 22:53, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Vaudois ordinarily refers to dissenting Christians that lived in the Cottian alps that straddle modern day France and Italy. Descendants of these people generally participate as Waldensians in Italy and abroad and claim the historic valleys as the historic homeland of their families.
Today Waldensians derive from all regions of Italy and the Rio de la Plata region of South America. Even more, there are many Waldensian immigrants who have found a spiritual home in Presbyterian and other Reformed Protestant churches of North America.
It seems to me that Vaudois would be a useful stand alone subject that is somehow linked from the Waldensian page. A simple merge would miss some of the distinctions.
I am a member of the American Waldensian Society ( http://www.waldensian.org/ ).
Agree I disagree with the above commentator no distinction is made in French- Vaudois is just the French word for Waldensians. It is silly to have two articles for things that are the same. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 01:30, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be a large history in French here http://www.regard.eu.org/Livres.11/Janavel/01.html which seems to contain lots of information which is not found here.
I take it that some of the "external links" have actually been used as references. It would be very nice to have a clue of what came from where. I am specifically asking for a citation for the "Old Waldensian Church of Anabaptists". I cannot find any online mention independent of Wikipedia, so presumably a print source was used and should be named. - Jmabel | Talk 01:31, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
The Protestant Alliance organizes yearly trips to the Waldensian Valleys with good lectures and sight seeing. (tel +44 (0)1525 712348, 77 Ampthill Road, Flitwick, Bedfordshire, UK) DFH 13:20, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I’m moving the sentence here because I can’t make sense of it in a couple of ways. The context was the early thirteenth century, but the Humiliati were still around at the Catholic Reformation, if our article on them is to be trusted. Secondly I can’t quite work out what the second part of the sentence is intended to mean. Thirdly what do we mean by thirteenth-century Lombards? Something to do with the Lombard League could definitely make sense, but it needs clarifying. — Ian Spackman 02:55, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I recall seeing some church labelled Waldensian in Italy (I think). Are you sure they disappeared? -- Error
DiscoverLife, the comment you replied is two years old, but it is still true. I have been in a struggle to throw out much POV nonsense from this article and cite as much as I can. If you have established a fact from another source, New Advent makes for easy citing since it is public domain and on the internet, but it almost 100 years old and written with a strong POV that few people hold anymore and is improper for wiki most of the time.
If you think the article needs help now, you should have seen it a week ago. I can't agree more that this article needs MUCH more info on the modern Church and I restructered it recently to try to encourage development in that direction. I also agree it should be cited from Waldensian sources if possible. I look forward to seeing more progress here. Thank you for your help. -- SECisek 05:18, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
...condemned for translating literally parts of the Bible which were deemed heretical by the Church.
This is startling. I was not aware that the Church ever regarded any part of the Bible as heretical.— Copey 2 05:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Which church? Lutherans once regarded the Epistle of James as possibly being heretical (because it says faith without works is dead). The Church also once considered Revelations as heresy, originally placing the Shepherd of Hermas in its place. The wording above looks a little odd - like it was translated from some other language - it could be that they meant to write ...condemned for translating parts of the Bible literally, an act which was deemed heretical by the church. Clinkophonist 19:07, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Not so odd as to mark the writer as a non-native speaker, I think. Literal translation of parts of the Bible might be an issue; translating non-canonical books and including them in scripture is another; it's this conflation of the two notions that is difficult to fathom. If the writer reads this, could he/she please rewrite this section more clearly?
Okay, yes, Eusebius regarded 2 Peter as spurious and the jury was still out on Revelation (NB, no final -s). And yes, Luther regarded James as a right strawy epistle. But neither of these views applies to the 12th century. I believe some sections of the ancient church regarded the Shepherd as scripture, but I don't believe this was ever a mainstream view. I certainly can't see in what meaningful sense it could have been in the "place" of Revelation. Do you mean it was at the end of the NT? – Copey 2 13:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
With regards to the biblical translations. Are you sure there is not some confusion with the Poor men of Metz, a group in France who translated biblical texts during the late 12th century? The Waldnes (or Poor Men of Lyons) have not, to my knowlege, produced a venacularised bible.
This data is not accurate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians#Historical_organization
It comes from a Catholic encyclopedia. The Catholic church whiped out millions of Waldensians during the Inquisition. They should not be allowed to continue to malign them making them look like cults.
Wow.
Check out these videos on this page: http://www.theloudcry.net/arrabito.html The ones called: "Lost Pages of Christianity", parts 1, 2, and 3.
Rush4hire 07:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Also, please note that for NPOV purposes, the opinion of Ellen G. White on the 7th day sabbath is already clearly stated in the Later history section. -- SECisek 08:42, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
This misunderstanding about the dating of the La Nobla Leçon is due to two lines in the poem where it reads:
The French philologist
François Juste Marie Raynouard was the first (and only person) to attribute this document to year 1100 based on those lines. But,
Henry Bradshaw decided to verify himself this documents, and lo! On the gap left by the erased part, one can still read with help of a magnifier:
The CCCC stands for 400, and the caligraphy matches with the symbol elswhere in the document. In context, this number is not a dating for the poem, but a prophetic warning. Also, later copies of this poem always read 1400. You can see with your own eyes in microfiche at the IDC
I hope it has been settled now.
-- Leonardo Alves 16:10, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Some researchers argue that the group has existed since the time of the apostles, a claim that is disputed by some modern scholarship. Whoever wrote this sentence could greatly improve it by adding names - which researchers and what modern scholarship? Nitpyck ( talk) 20:12, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
Why is this article deemed to be within the scope of Wikipedia:WikiProject Calvinism ? The Waldenses predate the Reformation. DFH 11:08, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Evidently, the history of the Vaudois/Waldenses includes significant interaction with the later Calvinist movement, to the point where many Waldensian groups eventually came to be counted among the ranks of the Calvinists in various parts of Europe and later in early America. This need not imply that Waldensian = Calvinist, only that the histories of each movement have included "cross pollination" with the other to a notable degree. Furthermore, the tone used by John Calvin himself in his prefactory letter to Francis I of France in his magnum opus ''The Institutes of the Christian Religion'', may be taken to reflect a belief by the author that his critique of certain current trends and dogmas in the Roman Church (and the same critique from his Protestant colleagues) was hardly novel and without pedigree. This is not elaborated upon in his text, but it would be rather absurd to think that a learned man like Calvin -- a Picard by birth who eventually settled in Geneva -- would not have had at least some general knowledge of the Waldenses and their history. Thus one can conclude that an encyclopaedic treatment of Calvinism should include at least passing reference to the pre-Reformation Waldensian movement of France, Switzerland, Italy, et al. Abdiel standing 16:35, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Is there any historical reason for preferring the non-literal translation of the book mentioned in this section of the writing "Summa de Catharis et Pauperibus de Lugduno" (roughly) "Of the Sects of Modern Heretics" (1254) ? Literally, the title might be translated "Summary Concerning the Cathars and Paupers of Lyon." Ray921 ( talk) 04:41, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
Hi Ian, I'm trying to add a little balance to this article by mentioning that the founding date is "disputed" because there is a dispute between Catholic and Protestants on this subject. However you seem to take quite an offense to this. If as you suggest there is an original research in what I added, I encourage you to go ahead and point this out here. Noting that the founding is disputed, which is 100% true, seems to be more neutral than stating a one-sided position. You're welcome to take this to the admins if you so desire. Perhaps a third party on this would be beneficial, however I think we can work together to make this a good article showing both positions.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Willfults ( talk • contribs)
I deleted this statement:
Many, both Catholics and Protestants, seem to agree that the Waldensians were against pedobaptism. Some of their 13th century accusers say they were opposed to or dropped many other sacraments as well. This, combined with their disregard for ecclesiastical authority, looks like some substantive doctrinal differences, in both their ecclesiology and in their sacramental theology. Wesley 17:02 Dec 10, 2002 (UTC)
Having read the article, I am still confused about Waldensian doctrine. The main doctrinal information I found was buried under one of the other subheadings. Might I suggest a reorganization of the article, to have an early subheading titled "Doctrines and Practices" or something like that? The current structure is devoted mostly to history and origins which, in my mind, is fine but should incorporate a summation of their key beliefs.
Compare the article on "Lollards" to see an example of what I am suggesting. -- Bonbga 17:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
This. I came to this article to find out how they differed from the Catholic Church of the time and found nothing on what their doctrines were when the movement was founded. Xt828 ( talk) 11:03, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
The Waldensians Or Vaudois are not Protestant. They were never apart of the Catholic church to protest it. Read "Cross and Crown" put out by Local Bible Publishers [2]. It gives the beginning of the Catholic Church as well as the Vaudois. (this unsigned comment was made by user Embroidery who has no other contribution to WP)
There is no denying that the Waldensians self identify as Protestants. I reworked. I also don't think it is fair to judge a source based off of it title. Are you famillar with the work? -- SECisek 08:04, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Responding to the first (misinformed) unsigned comment at the top of the section (made by user Embroidery who has no other contribution to WP): OF COURSE the Vaudois are Protestant. They are even THE FIRST PROTESTANT MOVEMENT before all the others: before the English Lollards, the Hussites, and finally the Lutherans and the Calvinists, etc. (Ain't gonna list here all the Protestant movements but it is worth listing those who existed BEFORE the 16th c. Reformation). It is correct that they themselves did not set themselves apart willingly, they only wanted, originally, to reform the Church from the inside, but the Catholic church by rejecting them made them into the first Protestant movement. The same with the Lollards, the Hussites. Even Luther did not start his own Church until he became convinced that the Catholic Church could not reform. It should be made clear in the article (if a clear statement to that effect in a reference work can be found) that the Vaudois were the FIRST Protestant movement. Of course some people may quibble with the term "Protestant" and argue that term can only be applied from Luther's Reformation on, but I disagree. Contact Basemetal here 18:01, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
The paragraph mentioning this alleged group should be removed because no reliable source attests their historical existence. The only mention of it is this self-published author. On Google, all references are copies from the wikipedia. Therefore, it should be deleted. -- Dagglio ( talk) 12:42, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
It would be useful, in order to stress the importance of the Vaudois movement in the context of the early stages of European Reformation movements (Lollards, Hussites, etc), to state explicitly in this article that the Vaudois formed indeed historically the first Protestant movement. Of course this statement has to be backed with a reliable source but I'm convinced there are such sources out there because it is most likely this statement is in fact correct. If you do find a statement to that effect in a reliable source please add it to the article. Thanks. Contact Basemetal here 18:11, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
So interesting mathematical probability discounts the sect starting in the late 12th century as the persecution lasted for nearly 500 years. I also find it strange that Peter Waldo vanished without a trace and all we have is a signed statement declaring his Catholic vows — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.166.75.87 ( talk) 14:40, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Fact is that the high independence of the communities, lay preaching, voluntary poverty and strict adherence to Bible are among the treats that allow to do such an assumptions. Furthermore, Peter Waldo as being credited with providing to Europe the first translation of the Bible in a 'modern tongue' outside of Latin is definitely a highly protestant asset. Its been and is of importance, as differences between Protestants and Catholics refers to Ecclesiology, and the Waldesian strive for their own church was taken to prove an ancient origin of protestantism as true interpretation of the faith. On that base, the German Protestants have been helping the Italien protestant minorities by aid, loans, exchange of priesters and communities and supportin legal and theological issues is a continuous story since the 17th century. The 1948 centenary festivitations of the Savoy civil rights declaration have been used by the EKD (top level) to allow for German Italian reconcialiation after WWI, with waldensian delegates pioneering. So far for that. Serten II ( talk) 14:18, 13 December 2014 (UTC)