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![]() | Waking the Tiger received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. |
![]() | This page was nominated for deletion in the past. The result of the discussion was procedurally closed - converted back to an article. |
For a March 2005 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Waking the Tiger. For an April redeletion debate see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Waking the Tiger 2. It was also on Wikipedia:Votes for Undeletion in April.
What do you guys say to a VFD for the third time? Just for fun?-- Jondel 05:04, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
We can't have fringe views in the article unless they can be contextualized by mainstream view. This is a core policy. WP:REDFLAG / WP:PSCI / WP:PARITY. Alexbrn ( talk) 05:34, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
The quote from John Marzillier of British Psychological Society does not violate WP:NPOV. The xoJane review does not violate WP:NPOV.
The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine article is used (1) to source the synopsis of the book in the "Synopsis" section and (2) to provide the perspective of the book reviewer in the "Reception" section. I see no reason to exclude it as a source for the synopsis; that is just factual information about what the book says. If you consider anything in the "Synopsis" section not to be factual information, or if you consider anything in the section to be an "exceptional claim", please point it out. I agree that the book reviewer's positive opinion of the book may be considered a fringe opinion, so I will not contest its removal.
Please do not remove the remaining information without gaining prior consensus to do so. The default state of the article is its state when it was returned to mainspace at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2017 May 20#Waking the Tiger.
Cunard ( talk) 06:42, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
Huge pull-quotes from fringe journals in colored boxes likewise is problematic.
– please explain how the quote from
John Marzillier of the
British Psychological Society is from a "fringe journa[l]". The British Psychological Society is not fringe. I
have shortened the quote to mention only the most important information.
Regarding this edit ("lifestyle website? undue weight to junk source"), according to this article from Chicago Tribune, Mandy Stadtmiller is a New York magazine columnist, wrote for the New York Post, and is publishing a book with Simon & Schuster imprint Gallery Books. Her review of the book in Time Inc.'s xoJane is worthy of inclusion and is not undue weight. xoJane is not a fringe source.
The article is not untouchable. I appreciate your suggestions about how to improve the article (like your pointing out the book's fourth section would be fringe). But I do not want large amounts of sourced information to be removed without prior discussion about whether it's possible to reword it to comply with the policies and guidelines.
Cunard ( talk) 07:21, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
Yes, Mandy Stadtmiller is a journalist and comedian. Why does including a book review from her in a lifestyle magazine violate WP:NPOV? It is standard to include magazine reviews in book articles. I've shortened her mention in the review section.
This article as a whole is legitimizing dubious nonsense and lacks a mainstream context.
– two mainstream sources are:
{{
cite news}}
: Unknown parameter |dead-url=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) (
help)The review notes:
The psychologist Peter Levine is a major figure in the trauma field. His earlier book, Waking the Tiger: Healing Trauma (North Atlantic Books, 1997), aimed at a general readership, was very successful.
{{
cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter |dead-url=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) (
help)The review criticizes the book's organization and notes:
I believe the book is more appropriately used by professionals rather than directly by patients or clients.
I've included information about the book's fourth section from Ruth P. Newton, a professor at the University of California, San Diego, in the journal Psychosomatic Medicine to provide a "mainstream context".
Cunard ( talk) 07:59, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
The mainstream context is that there is no evidence that somatic experiencing has any benefit whatsoever.
– I've used
Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine to source the book's synopsis. I do not object to anyone incorporating the mainstream context into the synopsis.
Cunard ( talk) 08:32, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
This journal is considered dubious in light of problems it has vis-a-vis WP:NFRINGE. It is reliable as a source of the author's opinions, but it is unclear why the author of that article has an opinion which is at all relevant to this page. jps ( talk) 12:13, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
This is an article on a different book than the review that was being used. Per WP:ASTONISH I removed content which was sourced solely to that off-handed commentary. jps ( talk) 12:13, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
{{
cite news}}
: Unknown parameter |dead-url=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) (
help)The article notes:
Here are my responses to the three diffs:In an Unspoken Voice: How the Body Releases Trauma and Restores Goodness
Peter Levine
The psychologist Peter Levine is a major figure in the trauma field. His earlier book, Waking the Tiger: Healing Trauma (North Atlantic Books, 1997), aimed at a general readership, was very successful. In it he promoted the idea that the way to help those affected by trauma was not through talking but through action. Somatic Experiencing, as he has calls it, combines body awareness work with a sensitive assessment of the psychological causes of trauma. It is not enough, and in fact it may make people worse, to ask people to relive traumas purely verbally. The body needs to be involved so that physical actions that were inhibited are re-enacted in therapy and latent energy can be discharged.In Waking the Tiger Levine’s notion of ‘energy’ was relatively undeveloped, a weakness in his model. In this new book he goes a long way to correcting that by drawing upon recent advances in brain functioning.
[The remaining content is about Levine's other book.]
It is very clear from the quotation above that these points are made in this source. The Wikipedia text is supported by this quotation from the source: "In it he promoted the idea that the way to help those affected by trauma was not through talking but through action. Somatic Experiencing, as he has calls it, combines body awareness work with a sensitive assessment of the psychological causes of trauma."
The 'British Psychology Society section 'is' extensive enough to be of use. While the review is of another book, that book is an extension of Waking the Tiger and two whole paragraphs where provided as a review for the same.-- Jondel ( talk) 12:33, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm interested to hear your thoughts about the use in this article of John Marzillier's review of another book. I don't think WP:ASTONISH is violated when a book review for In an Unspoken Voice is used to source content about the book Waking the Tiger. The article's text does not say or imply that the book review is of Waking the Tiger. The book review contains five sentences of coverage about Waking the Tiger.
If anyone is able to help copyedit or expand the article, I'd be grateful. An editor has suggested renominating the article for deletion, so I'd like the article to be improved to the extent possible before an AfD happens.
Thank you.
Cunard ( talk) 05:26, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
If the article does not give appropriate weight to the mainstream view, then additions like this should resolve that. Why is it inappropriate to describe in the Wikipedia article what the book is about using a mainstream book by a The New York Times science correspondent once such appropriate weight to the mainstream view is given?
Levine's book's assertions are nonsense but that's what his book says so that's what the synopsis of his book should say. To make the synopsis reflect the mainstream view, content like this can be added and phrases like "Levine claims this but there is no proof" or "Levine asserts that but there is no evidence" can be added. This will have the benefit of both telling readers what the book says (the article currently does not do that, which as an encyclopedia article it should do) and telling readers that what the book says is unproven and without evidence.
Cunard ( talk) 06:41, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
What is this even meant to mean? Seems like jibberish to me. Alexbrn ( talk) 06:09, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter |dead-url=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) (
help)Here is the full quote from Ruth P. Newton, a professor at the University of California, San Diego. She wrote, "He suggests that energy stored in a traumatic moment is not as easily released for humans because of the triune structure of the brain with its contributing influences of emotions and intellect, which often override instinct."
If the paraphrase is imprecise, please reword it to make it more clear.
Cunard ( talk) 06:24, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
A form of catharsis or release occurs. You feel 'lighter' , spontaneous and are able to focus and are more aware. Without this release you're like a zombie on the outside, staring into space, panicky or get anxieties. -- Jondel ( talk) 12:26, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
Alex, you don't understand. The energy is pent up emotional tensions, fears and anxieties resulting from harrowing or horrible experiences like war, losing a job/loved one, being bullied or attacked, etc. Just because you don't understand doesn't mean you should label it as gibberish or nonsense.-- Jondel ( talk) 14:41, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
How do you describe anxieties? Your muscles tense up and breathing is irregular like 'compressed(emotional) energy' Levine is doing his best to describe phenomenon of the psyche associated with trauma such as emotional tension, discomfort, disturbances. The muscle tensions due to anxieties and other emotions are easily understood as compressions. You seem to do a good job of undermining sources provided but the book is well known among trauma-healing circles.-- Jondel ( talk) 15:37, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
If you don't like the word 'energy' how about stigma? This may not qualify as an RS but if WtT is of no benefit Grace in this article wouldn't recommend it to a firefighter heal his stigma-trauma.-- Jondel ( talk) 15:54, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Waking the Tiger received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. |
![]() | This page was nominated for deletion in the past. The result of the discussion was procedurally closed - converted back to an article. |
For a March 2005 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Waking the Tiger. For an April redeletion debate see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Waking the Tiger 2. It was also on Wikipedia:Votes for Undeletion in April.
What do you guys say to a VFD for the third time? Just for fun?-- Jondel 05:04, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
We can't have fringe views in the article unless they can be contextualized by mainstream view. This is a core policy. WP:REDFLAG / WP:PSCI / WP:PARITY. Alexbrn ( talk) 05:34, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
The quote from John Marzillier of British Psychological Society does not violate WP:NPOV. The xoJane review does not violate WP:NPOV.
The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine article is used (1) to source the synopsis of the book in the "Synopsis" section and (2) to provide the perspective of the book reviewer in the "Reception" section. I see no reason to exclude it as a source for the synopsis; that is just factual information about what the book says. If you consider anything in the "Synopsis" section not to be factual information, or if you consider anything in the section to be an "exceptional claim", please point it out. I agree that the book reviewer's positive opinion of the book may be considered a fringe opinion, so I will not contest its removal.
Please do not remove the remaining information without gaining prior consensus to do so. The default state of the article is its state when it was returned to mainspace at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2017 May 20#Waking the Tiger.
Cunard ( talk) 06:42, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
Huge pull-quotes from fringe journals in colored boxes likewise is problematic.
– please explain how the quote from
John Marzillier of the
British Psychological Society is from a "fringe journa[l]". The British Psychological Society is not fringe. I
have shortened the quote to mention only the most important information.
Regarding this edit ("lifestyle website? undue weight to junk source"), according to this article from Chicago Tribune, Mandy Stadtmiller is a New York magazine columnist, wrote for the New York Post, and is publishing a book with Simon & Schuster imprint Gallery Books. Her review of the book in Time Inc.'s xoJane is worthy of inclusion and is not undue weight. xoJane is not a fringe source.
The article is not untouchable. I appreciate your suggestions about how to improve the article (like your pointing out the book's fourth section would be fringe). But I do not want large amounts of sourced information to be removed without prior discussion about whether it's possible to reword it to comply with the policies and guidelines.
Cunard ( talk) 07:21, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
Yes, Mandy Stadtmiller is a journalist and comedian. Why does including a book review from her in a lifestyle magazine violate WP:NPOV? It is standard to include magazine reviews in book articles. I've shortened her mention in the review section.
This article as a whole is legitimizing dubious nonsense and lacks a mainstream context.
– two mainstream sources are:
{{
cite news}}
: Unknown parameter |dead-url=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) (
help)The review notes:
The psychologist Peter Levine is a major figure in the trauma field. His earlier book, Waking the Tiger: Healing Trauma (North Atlantic Books, 1997), aimed at a general readership, was very successful.
{{
cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter |dead-url=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) (
help)The review criticizes the book's organization and notes:
I believe the book is more appropriately used by professionals rather than directly by patients or clients.
I've included information about the book's fourth section from Ruth P. Newton, a professor at the University of California, San Diego, in the journal Psychosomatic Medicine to provide a "mainstream context".
Cunard ( talk) 07:59, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
The mainstream context is that there is no evidence that somatic experiencing has any benefit whatsoever.
– I've used
Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine to source the book's synopsis. I do not object to anyone incorporating the mainstream context into the synopsis.
Cunard ( talk) 08:32, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
This journal is considered dubious in light of problems it has vis-a-vis WP:NFRINGE. It is reliable as a source of the author's opinions, but it is unclear why the author of that article has an opinion which is at all relevant to this page. jps ( talk) 12:13, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
This is an article on a different book than the review that was being used. Per WP:ASTONISH I removed content which was sourced solely to that off-handed commentary. jps ( talk) 12:13, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
{{
cite news}}
: Unknown parameter |dead-url=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) (
help)The article notes:
Here are my responses to the three diffs:In an Unspoken Voice: How the Body Releases Trauma and Restores Goodness
Peter Levine
The psychologist Peter Levine is a major figure in the trauma field. His earlier book, Waking the Tiger: Healing Trauma (North Atlantic Books, 1997), aimed at a general readership, was very successful. In it he promoted the idea that the way to help those affected by trauma was not through talking but through action. Somatic Experiencing, as he has calls it, combines body awareness work with a sensitive assessment of the psychological causes of trauma. It is not enough, and in fact it may make people worse, to ask people to relive traumas purely verbally. The body needs to be involved so that physical actions that were inhibited are re-enacted in therapy and latent energy can be discharged.In Waking the Tiger Levine’s notion of ‘energy’ was relatively undeveloped, a weakness in his model. In this new book he goes a long way to correcting that by drawing upon recent advances in brain functioning.
[The remaining content is about Levine's other book.]
It is very clear from the quotation above that these points are made in this source. The Wikipedia text is supported by this quotation from the source: "In it he promoted the idea that the way to help those affected by trauma was not through talking but through action. Somatic Experiencing, as he has calls it, combines body awareness work with a sensitive assessment of the psychological causes of trauma."
The 'British Psychology Society section 'is' extensive enough to be of use. While the review is of another book, that book is an extension of Waking the Tiger and two whole paragraphs where provided as a review for the same.-- Jondel ( talk) 12:33, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm interested to hear your thoughts about the use in this article of John Marzillier's review of another book. I don't think WP:ASTONISH is violated when a book review for In an Unspoken Voice is used to source content about the book Waking the Tiger. The article's text does not say or imply that the book review is of Waking the Tiger. The book review contains five sentences of coverage about Waking the Tiger.
If anyone is able to help copyedit or expand the article, I'd be grateful. An editor has suggested renominating the article for deletion, so I'd like the article to be improved to the extent possible before an AfD happens.
Thank you.
Cunard ( talk) 05:26, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
If the article does not give appropriate weight to the mainstream view, then additions like this should resolve that. Why is it inappropriate to describe in the Wikipedia article what the book is about using a mainstream book by a The New York Times science correspondent once such appropriate weight to the mainstream view is given?
Levine's book's assertions are nonsense but that's what his book says so that's what the synopsis of his book should say. To make the synopsis reflect the mainstream view, content like this can be added and phrases like "Levine claims this but there is no proof" or "Levine asserts that but there is no evidence" can be added. This will have the benefit of both telling readers what the book says (the article currently does not do that, which as an encyclopedia article it should do) and telling readers that what the book says is unproven and without evidence.
Cunard ( talk) 06:41, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
What is this even meant to mean? Seems like jibberish to me. Alexbrn ( talk) 06:09, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter |dead-url=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) (
help)Here is the full quote from Ruth P. Newton, a professor at the University of California, San Diego. She wrote, "He suggests that energy stored in a traumatic moment is not as easily released for humans because of the triune structure of the brain with its contributing influences of emotions and intellect, which often override instinct."
If the paraphrase is imprecise, please reword it to make it more clear.
Cunard ( talk) 06:24, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
A form of catharsis or release occurs. You feel 'lighter' , spontaneous and are able to focus and are more aware. Without this release you're like a zombie on the outside, staring into space, panicky or get anxieties. -- Jondel ( talk) 12:26, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
Alex, you don't understand. The energy is pent up emotional tensions, fears and anxieties resulting from harrowing or horrible experiences like war, losing a job/loved one, being bullied or attacked, etc. Just because you don't understand doesn't mean you should label it as gibberish or nonsense.-- Jondel ( talk) 14:41, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
How do you describe anxieties? Your muscles tense up and breathing is irregular like 'compressed(emotional) energy' Levine is doing his best to describe phenomenon of the psyche associated with trauma such as emotional tension, discomfort, disturbances. The muscle tensions due to anxieties and other emotions are easily understood as compressions. You seem to do a good job of undermining sources provided but the book is well known among trauma-healing circles.-- Jondel ( talk) 15:37, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
If you don't like the word 'energy' how about stigma? This may not qualify as an RS but if WtT is of no benefit Grace in this article wouldn't recommend it to a firefighter heal his stigma-trauma.-- Jondel ( talk) 15:54, 31 May 2017 (UTC)