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I have gone through the intro and origins trying to remove material that is about the SS, and very interesting, but irrelevant IMHO to evolution of the Waffen-SS. I have done this to shorten the pieces and to keep a tighter focus. Apols to the contributors of great material that i hope is on the SS page instead.
I have also tried to strictly enforce chronology and remove the comments about the future SS or past SS that occurred often in the text. I have tried to move the material if it wasn't duplicative.
I have tried to remove the duplicative material from these two sections.
Please forgive but this was getting rather long-winded and 'bitty' reflecting a the many informed people who have contributed in many places. Facius 12:41, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
From Polish Wikipedia ( http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podgaje_%28wojew%C3%B3dztwo_wielkopolskie%29) :
"W trakcie walk o Wał Pomorski w 1945, w miejscowości Podgaje walczący po stronie niemieckiej żołnierze łotewscy z grupy bojowej "Elster", wchodzący w skład 15 Dywizji Grenadierów SS (1 łotewskiej) dokonali zbrodni na 32 żołnierzach Wojska Polskiego z 4. kompanii 3. pułku piechoty 1 Dywizji WP, którym najpierw skrępowano ręce drutem kolczastym, a następnie wprowadzono do stodoły i spalono żywcem."
During the fight for Pomeranian Wall in 1945, in the village called "Podgaje" (<-- Poland) the Latvian soldiers from the group called "Elster" (Kampfgruppe Elster) which was a part of 15th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Latvian), SS-mans of that division performed a war crime on polish prisoners, burning alive 32 soldiers of Polish Army from 4th company 3rd regiment infantry 1st Division 1AWP in a barn tied up with a barbed wire.
I'm sorry for the bad translation...but I think that you will understand it.
Proofs :
1,0 1,1 Majewski Ryszard: Waffen SS. Mity i rzeczywistość. Krajowa Agencja Wydawnicza, Wrocław, 1983, s. 247. ISBN 83-03-00102-7.
2,0 2,1 Zawilski Apoloniusz: Polskie fronty. Oficyna Wydawnicza Volumen, Warszawa, 1996, s. 463 (tom2). ISBN 83-86857-23-4.
Grzelak, Stańczyk, Zwoliński: Armia Berlinga i Żymierskiego, Warszawa, 2002, ISBN 83-88973-27-4
Polski czyn zbrojny w II wojnie światowej. Wydawnictwo Ministerstwa Obrony Narodowej, Warszawa, 1988, s.531 (tom 3). ISBN 83-11-07038-5.
-- Greetings [[User:Krzyzowiec|Krzyzowiec]] ( talk) 03:06, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
It appears fair to mention that members/POWs of Waffen-SS units were the frequent object of summary executions and other atrocities either by regular allied troups or so-called "résistance" members regardless of personal responsibility, especially on the Eastern front or in the Balkans. The article should be extended to account for this aspect. -- Meudonnais ( talk) 10:01, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
In doing so, attention should be paid to the issue that SS personnel, not being regular soldiers, were not obviously covered by the Geneva Convention on the law of war, as well as the recurrent use of ruses by SS troops who feigned surrender far more frequently than they actually captulated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.161.222.148 ( talk) 01:01, 21 August 2008 (UTC) ]
Well, let's talk about them. On the Eastern Front the German army calculatedly starved, froze or shot 3 million Russian POWs on the first year of the war and liquidated Russian Jews in 2 years, used mass murder as a means to fight partisans and executed any communist party member civilian or military. The courtsey was returned with feeling. After Canadian POWs were murdered the 12 SS Div, the Canadians stopped taking SS prisoners. The US Army stopped taking SS prisoners in retaliation of the Malmedy massacre. And what is that with the peculiar use of the phrase "so-called resistence fighters"? Methinks I detected Neo-Nazism in the air. Chin Cheng-chuan
Actually, Meudonnais does have a point, just because war crimes were commited by the SS, does not mean we should attempt to minimalize or perhaps even not cover war crimes commited by allied soldiers. -Anonymous —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.83.49.13 ( talk) 06:07, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
It should be noted that it is untrue to say that the Waffen SS did not participate in the Holocaust while the so-called "regular SS" did. Aftering being wounded, a great many Waffen SS men were assigned duty as concentration camp guards in the rear during their recuperation periods. They would then rotate back to their front-line unit after fully recuperating. For more on this, please see Charles Sydnor's "Soldiers of Destruction." 76.111.6.4 ( talk) 03:38, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
"Vollendetes 17tes Lebensjahr" means you are 17 years old, not 18. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.117.83.13 ( talk) 22:21, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, this is true. This phrase means the day when someone turn 17. -- 78.51.106.248 ( talk) 18:30, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
The descriptor of "Third Reich" as a country has little validity. Units of the Waffen SS raised in conquered territories were raised, deployed, commanded and supplied by the structure of the German state. The postage stamps of that era indicate 'Deutsches Reich' and the railway 'Deutsche Reichsbahn'. The term 'Drittes Reich' is and was used as a political term to describe a period of a distinct form of German aspiration to
1. emulate a previous era of influence and control of disparate ethnic/language groups by a pre-eminent nation (that is the Holy Roman Empire) and
2. an era of aggressive 'unionising' of German speaking states by Prussia/Otto von Bismarck via wars with neighbour nations (Denmark, Austria and France).
The "Country" should, I feel, read 'Germany'. The inclusion of a "Garrison/HQ" is surely superfluous, as is "March", "Anniversaries","Colors", "Nickname" and "Motto". Himmler was its C-in-C. In Britain the Queen is a patron of many organisations including the RSPCA (Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals) but she doesn't run any of them. I detect an emotional, even glorifying overlay to this article rather than a rigorous objective summation. Gr1bble8s ( talk) 20:29, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I think this article is terrible and written in incredible poor taste, but Third Reich is considered accurate historical vocabulary. As in:
First Reich-Holy Roman Empire
Second Reich-The German Empire/Imperial Hohenstauffen
Third Reich-Nazi Germany
I agree the "motto" and the "nickname" should be ommitted from the box. -Chengchuan Chin
I don't believe anyone referred to the Holy Roman Empire as the "First" Reich or Bismarckian Germany as the "Second" Reich until the Hitler era.
Historian932 (
talk)
21:10, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
The article must have a link for SS' tatoos.Article about SS' tatoos: [ [1]] and [ [2]] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Agre22 ( talk • contribs) 03:34, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
"For example, Dutchmen who joined the 34.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division Landstorm Nederland were granted exemption from forced labour and provided with food, pay and accommodation. Recruits who joined for such reasons rarely proved good soldiers, and several units composed of such volunteers were involved in atrocities."
Is there any proof for that statement? Many warcrimes were committed by mostly German-Units, like Totenkopf. Who very often joined the SS because of its ideology and not "because of food, pay or accomodation". And they often proved excellent soldiers though they were indeed involved in many atrocities. Therefore I strongly doubt that this statement is true, that rather "unmotivated" soldiers committed more atrocities than ideologically motivated/convinced SS-soldiers.
87.176.204.247 ( talk) 10:28, 9 November 2008 (UTC) German, Freiburg
Many Latvian "volunteers" were actually conscripted after February 1943, even though Nazi propaganda claimed that they had consented to join the Waffen-SS (Latvian Legion 15th and 19th Divisions). The Nazis called these Latvian conscripts volunteers in order to avoid the 1907 Hague Convention rules (which stated that citizens from occupied countries could not be conscripted by occupying forces). However, prior to February 10, 1943 some Latvians actually did join these divisions as volunteers but the vast majority did so not for Nazi ideals but because they wanted arms and financing to liberate their country from the Soviet occupation that began in 1940. Therefore, amongst themselves they referred to their divisions as the "Latvian Legion" (in a fight for national self-determination) rather than as Waffen-SS fighting for Hitler.
that needs so much citation its not even funny. 'the vast majority'? 'amongst themselves?' can we get some statistics on what proportion joined 'not for nazi ideals but to liberate their country from the USSR'? Obviously there must be a document showing entrance polling concerning motivation for latvian SS members, otherwise the author wouldn't have made such a baseless assertion... ... .. right? 76.16.46.233 ( talk) 02:38, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
The article states that the SS was formed because of Hitler's "unease" with the "size and strength of the SA"...I thought it was because he wanted an absolutely dependable group of men based in each town/city in Germany that would protect him when he drove around giving speeches (this is before he had achieved any political power, and communists would attempt to break up nationalist meetings). Historian932 ( talk) 21:07, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
IMHO this article along with a number of others to do with the SS/atrocities/holocaust should be locked down. It is such an emotive subject that people constantly edit it without paying enough attention to grammar, good English, the context of their contribution w.r.t. the rest of the article, and most of all POV issues. This is bad for the reputation of English Wikipedia and the quality of its articles. Surely there is a better way of dealing with articles containing contentious issues. I can imagine this would apply to Arab-Israeli issues even more. 1812ahill ( talk) 05:49, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
The Biblio section contains the following entry:
Flaherty, T.H (2004). The Third Reich:The SS (1st Edition ed.). Caxton Publishing Group. ISBN 1 84447 073 3.
The Caxton Publishing Group website shows no evidence of TH Flaherty or his book. Neither Google Books nor Amazon.com list the it. A Library of Congress (which, by law, should list every book published in the USA) search returns 'Invalid ISBN'.
This reference underpins a great deal of the article. Unless someone demonstrates the book is real and credible, and corrects the reference with a valid ISBN, I will procede with deletion. Dduff442 ( talk) 06:51, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
--Found it via ISBN link on wiki. Publisher is Time Life Books, not Caxton, and title is wrong. This is a spectacularly obscure title, from a non-academic source. Better sources than this are needed. Dduff442 ( talk) 06:58, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
The sidebar to the right of this page has an entry under "Motto" which seems to state that SS men were given an HJ dagger upon their graduation. I think this is a case of faulty reference in English, in that the author intended to say that all HJ members received a dagger upon their HJ graduation day. (I suspect that they received their daggers well before that.) In any case, is this really relevant? It has nothing to do with the SS motto, which is correctly stated. I think this information is confusing at best, and possibly wrong. In any case, it should probably be removed. Rkieran ( talk) 21:13, 27 October 2010 (UTC)rkieran
Having read your Waffen SS webpage I have come across the comment upon the Malmedy Massacre. Having read a couple of British and American books on the subject, plus one Belgian book by Gerd Cuppens, including webpages from Willy Alenus and Henri Rogister, I consider it totally irresponsible and in no way supported by facts to declare that 90 GIs had been murdered at the site. 72 + 12 bodies of GIs had been recovered from mid-January to March 1945 within a radius of 250 to 500 meters from the Five Points Road Crossing. All known witnesses' statements considered with a minimum of investigative sense do not support a massacre: for instance that most GIs had fled into some nearby woods after having survived the first shelling of the U.S. convoy and would therefore neither qualify as having been taken prisoner, leave alone having been massacred in the process. Most bodies appear to be those of fallen soldiers. Individual acts of murder still remain unsolved by normal police procedure standards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.235.64.76 ( talk) 19:00, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
Having read on your Waffen-SS page that ca. 90 U.S. soldiers have been murdered by SS-troops at Malmedy I was truly astonished that any such irresponsible and unsupported views would still be published. Most British and American publications on the matter in question have voiced at least some doubt on the matter, some take an even more outspokenly pro-German view. Some Belgian authors have almost come to the point of denial and keep only some doubts alive, pertaining to individual acts of murder in the aftermath of a brutally stopped, attempted escape of U.S. GIs. Belgians who saw what happended and who exchanged their knowledge immediately after the events were never called up as witnesses at the Dachau trials. One said that most (that is more than half, maybe about 40-50 men) of the American survivors of the first shelling of the U.S. convoy fled into nearby woods. This clearly disqualifies them from having been taken prisoners in the first place and to have been massacred as a consequence, either through machinegun fire or murderous, individual pistol or rifle shots afterwards. About 20 men of a route marking detail (see Rogister) and 35 latecomers (Sgt. Bechtel) out of 152 men of the 285th FAOB's complement never arrived at the scene. Ca. 36 prisoners from other U.S. units had arrived there on German vehicles. According to W.Alenus, G.Cuppens, and H. Rogister another ca. 54(?)GIs had had left the scene alive. How many of those had actually been prisoners? Two Belgian witnesses speak of between 13 and 28 killed GIs in the "killing field". It must be assumed that the 72+12 bodies recovered between mid-January and March 1945 had been killed in action except the 13 to 28 mentioned by either one of the two Belgians. All bodies were found near the road crossing and up to 250 meters (72 bodies)to 500 meters(12 bodies) distance from it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Buchorn ( talk • contribs) 22:14, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
Having read on your Waffen-SS page that ca. 90 U.S. soldiers have been murdered by SS-troops at Malmedy I was truly astonished that any such irresponsible and unsupported views would still be published. Most British and American publications on the matter in question have voiced at least some doubt on the matter, some take an even more outspokenly pro-German view. Some Belgian authors have almost come to the point of denial and keep only some doubts alive, pertaining to individual acts of murder in the aftermath of a brutally stopped, attempted escape of U.S. GIs. Belgians who saw what happended and who exchanged their knowledge immediately after the events were never called up as witnesses at the Dachau trials. One said that most (that is more than half, maybe about 40-50 men) of the American survivors of the first shelling of the U.S. convoy fled into nearby woods. This clearly disqualifies them from having been taken prisoners in the first place and to have been massacred as a consequence, either through machinegun fire or murderous, individual pistol or rifle shots afterwards. About 20 men of a route marking detail (see Rogister) and 35 latecomers (Sgt. Bechtel) out of 152 men of the 285th FAOB's complement never arrived at the scene. Ca. 36 prisoners from other U.S. units had arrived there on German vehicles. According to W.Alenus, G.Cuppens, and H. Rogister another ca. 54(?)GIs had had left the scene alive. How many of those had actually been prisoners? Two Belgian witnesses speak of between 13 and 28 killed GIs in the "killing field". It must be assumed that the 72+12 bodies recovered between mid-January and March 1945 had been killed in action except the 13 to 28 mentioned by either one of the two Belgians. All bodies were found near the road crossing and up to 250 meters (72 bodies)to 500 meters(12 bodies) distance from it. Buchorn ( talk) 22:24, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
To think that Wikipedia allows a Nazi sympathizer as an "Editor" to delete unsavory details of Hitler and his Waffen SS that were the personable twisted logic of Mein Kampf in a Uniform. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.108.164.2 ( talk) 20:03, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
I restored that conscripts did not swear formal allegiance. Heni's text says nothing in this regard. Additionally, Heni's position is that commemoration of the Waffen SS glorifies the Holocaust. For example:
Commemoration of the Waffen SS (in this case Latvian Legion) has nothing to do with Arajs or praising any actions of Nazi collaborators in the Holocaust. Please feel free to include such (regretfully, inflammatory and baseless, but all scholars are entitled to their opinion) contentions in contemporary reactions to commemoration. VєсrumЬа ► TALK 18:22, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
Note on the matter: Davies, Norman (1998) , Europe: A History, Harper Perennial , ISBN: 978-0060974688; "...recruitment drive for three Latvian divisions of the Waffen-SS. The men swore an oath 'to struggle against Bolshevism ' and 'to obey the commander-in-chief of the German armed forces, Adolf Hitler'." (see Appendix III, pp. 1326-7). Kierzek ( talk) 16:28, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
(od) @Paul, please desist your WP:SYNTHESIS to tar and feather the Latvian Legion as war criminals. They were not. The pre-Legion/non-Legion units who were collaborators are dealt with separately elsewhere on those topics. As for my alleged conflicting with sources:
We're done here. Do not insist again that "fighting the USSR", the first invaders of the Baltics in collusion with Hitler equals "fighting the Allies". And don't ridicule me again. With that action you have permanently exhausted my well of WP:AGF with regard to your participation on any subject matter touching upon Latvia and the Baltics. VєсrumЬа ► TALK 14:08, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
OK, now ( [3]) the formulation "Allegiance: Adolf Hitler, in cases limited to combat against the USSR" starts looking strange (this discussion would indicate that this qualifier only applies to foreign volunteers, right?)... If there is a disagreement about the right way to qualify this field, wouldn't it be better to drop it instead? After all, infoboxes are for completely undisputed and clear information only, aren't they..? -- Martynas Patasius ( talk) 23:05, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/1183. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Dianna ( talk) 02:51, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Can we change it to "Herrenvolk"? All other German nouns in the article are compliant with German grammar (capitalised first letter), apart from this one. Makes it look kind of odd! FerociousFranky ( talk)
The quote at the end of the intro "An exception was made for Waffen-SS conscripts sworn in after 1943" begs the question I gave in the title. Would it be correct to change that to "An exception was made for Waffen-SS conscripts, who were sworn in after 1943"?
And to be clear, I'm assuming that there were no conscripts before 1943. AngusCA ( talk) 14:07, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Do either of the two quotations recently added by User:Jonas Vinther belong in the lead? Or perhaps later in the article?
After consideration I agree the first not does not belong in the lead, but perhaps later in the article as you said, although I would not have added the new one if I didn't believe it should be in the lead. Jonas Vinther ( talk) 23:09, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
A contributor seems intent on adding quotations from former Waffen-SS members to the lede. I would ask that per WP:BRD such changes be discussed rather than edit-warred over. As I made clear in my edit summary, I feel that such quotes are undue, and add little to the article anyway. That former Waffen-SS members will attempt to minimise or justify their behaviour is hardly unexpected - but it adds little meaningful content to the article. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 23:08, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
I agree that any Waffen-SS survivor would do anything to justify or excuse their actions, I just added a simple example of that. Like I said earlier, I agree that that one should probably not be in the lead, but the new one should. But of course this is just my opinion. Jonas Vinther ( talk) 23:12, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
Oh well... I guess all my contributions and says are completely non-important and "more of less useless"... Whatever. Jonas Vinther ( talk) 23:19, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
In the position that I find myself in, I'm going politely hide my irritation and not make any future edits on this page. Jonas Vinther ( talk) 23:31, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
The recently removed logos appear to have been taken from recruitment posters such as can be seen here and here. In fact the description for image File:Logo-WaffenSS.jpg states "self-made, cut from a recruitment poster". If you could please clarify why this has been removed that would be great. -- Diannaa ( talk) 15:47, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
I believe we should not use something copied off a recruiting poster when we have the sleeve eagle, which is distinctive. Another option I flagged earlier is to use a pic of a Waffen-SS soldier. There is nothing that says we have to have a logo there. Cheers, Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 21:39, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
Do you people think it's worth mentioning that Himmler, in 1940, introduced sex dolls for the Waffen-SS as a way to combat Syphilis at the front? I have a source here from The Huffington Post. Jonas Vinther ( talk) 13:45, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
"jews and poles remained banned" - can anybody confirm this?-- 212.118.232.148 ( talk) 10:31, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
Well, considering the fact that the Waffen-SS was a great multi-ethnic organization, and that the German Army had some Jewish soldiers and officers, I, also, would like to have someone confirm this. I have also heard in a BBC documentary that poles boosted the German conscripts in later 1944. Jonas Vinther ( talk) 23:14, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
This article has virtually no info on the super strict entry requirements of the Waffen-SS. I have sources which claims that out of every 100 applicants, only 7 were accepted. Furthermore, Dietrich insisted that all members had to be mature, between the ages of 23 to 35, in superb physical condition, and have a perfect ancestry record. All this could be fill out a section of its own. I'd like someone else's take on this. Cheers, Jonas Vinther • ( speak to me!) 11:42, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
Has Flaherty ever been discussed as reliable? It appears that he's not a historian (nor a scholar). In addition to The Third Reich: The SS, he's also written:
At best he writes 'popular history' and his book could well be a redundant tertiary source. He's referenced 23 times on the article's page.
Thought on this? -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 04:50, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
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help)Hi, I've made considerable revisions to the linked article HIAG. I would like to update the HIAG section in this article to the lead from the HIAG main article as follows:
HIAG ( German: Hilfsgemeinschaft auf Gegenseitigkeit der Angehörigen der ehemaligen Waffen-SS, literally "Mutual aid association of former Waffen-SS members") was a lobby group and a revisionist veteran's organisation founded by former high-ranking Waffen-SS personnel in West Germany in 1951. It campaigned for the legal, economic and historical rehabilitation of the Waffen-SS, using contacts with political parties to manipulate them for its purposes.
HIAG's historical revisionism encompassed multi-prong propaganda efforts, including periodicals, books and public speeches, alongside a publishing house that served as a platform for its publicity aims. This extensive body of work – 57 book titles and more than 50 years of monthly periodicals – have been described by historians as revisionist apologia.
Always in touch with its Nazi past, HIAG was a subject of significant controversy, both in West Germany and abroad. The organisation drifted into right-wing extremism in its later history; it was disbanded in 1992 at the federal level, but local groups, along with the organisation's monthly periodical, continued to exist at least through the 2000s, possibly into the 2010s.
While HIAG only partially achieved its goals of legal and economic rehabilitation of Waffen-SS, its propaganda efforts led to the reshaping of the image of Waffen-SS in popular culture. The results are still felt, with scholarly treatments drowned out by a large amount of amateur historical studies, memoirs, picture books, websites and wargames.
---Section ends---
Since this is a copy paste from the lead of the article, it currently contains no citations. I will provide detailed citations as this new content is introduced into the article. I would also like to replace the image as not relevant to HIAG's activities. Please let me know if there are any objections. K.e.coffman ( talk) 06:34, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
I don't believe this long list of nationalities is not needed in the lead, especially as we get down to the "15-20 volunteers" from the U.S.A.:
I suggest moving it into the body of the article as this level of detail is not needed in the lead. Would like to hear what others says. K.e.coffman ( talk) 05:36, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
There seem to be some confusion here? The intro says: "nations considered by Nazis to be "sub-human" like ethnic Poles or Jews remained excluded". I find this very hard to believe: I have sources from BBC that says that Waffen-SS divisions, particularly in 1944-45, had been boosted with Czech and Polish conscripts. Also, the German Army did indeed have many Jewish soldiers. Around 150,000 people with Jewish blood or ancestry would eventually serve in the German Wehrmacht, those included: 2 field marshals, 2 full generals, 8 lieutenant generals, and 5 major generals, and some of these would be awarded The Knights Cross. To name a few famous-Jews-serving-in-the-German-Army: Anton Mayer, Werner Goldberg, Helmut Wilberg, Walter Hollaender, Bernard Rogge, Paul Ascher, Horst Geitner who received the Iron Cross 2nd Class and Silver Wound Badge, Hermann Aub, and of course Emil Maurice.
I'd like someone else's opinion on this. Jonas Vinther ( talk) 13:16, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Peacemaker67, my point in mentioning the German Jews in the German army was to prove that people besides "Aryan Germans" did indeed fight for Germany, which is not commonly mentioned or believed. Besides, the Waffen-SS is famous for being multi-ethnic and multi-national military force, so I find it hard to believe that Poles and Jews remained banned, especially since the sources I have prove otherwise. Some people still deny that any non-Germans fought for Germany. Here is the link to the Ningus-Martin/BBC sources. I firmly believe the delete-editing I have done is entirely good faith. Jonas Vinther ( talk) 21:42, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
You guys are more or less just repeating each other in defriend formulations. Also, I actually just wanted someone to confirm that Poles and Jews remained banned, didn't try to prove you defriend, but merely said I found that hard to believe since I've always been under the impression Poles were allowed, and since many Jews served in the German Army, which is not known for being a multi-ethnic or multi-national military force, it didn't quite make sense. Jonas Vinther ( talk) 13:45, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Correcting grammar is childish and a sign you have run out of meaningful things to mention. I'm not going to feel intimidated because you correct my grammar. Also, I have again and again emphasized my points which is, not surprisingly, being more of less neglected. I'm going to tell you the same thing I tell other users in similar situations: do whatever you feel is best for Wikipedia, I don't care because I know I have my heart and mind in the right place and is making a difference on Wikipedia. All edits I have done and will do in the future is done solely in the belief it's good faith edits. Jonas Vinther ( talk) 12:53, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
As for Jews serving in the SS I know factually of only one. Don't remember his name and I don't really care enough to look it up (I'm only adding to this discussion and don't care at all if it's added). I saw this on a documentary on Netflix. He worked for the SS office that wanted to revise the "glory" of Aryans, whatever that office was called. I'm 99.9% positive though it was not the Waffen-SS though. All this Jewish SS officer wanted was to find the Holy Grail and only Himmler's SS would fund him - but the SS did not know he was Jewish. Here's my 2/5th's of a nickel about what Vinther said above though: making all these statements about Jews in the Wehrmacht seems misleading in this discussion since we're talking about the SS. Solri89 ( talk) 01:11, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
After I opened up this page to learn more history, the first thing that pops up is that pic of SS guys and the caption calls them soldiers. As an actual Veteran Soldier I take great exemption to the SS being called honorable in any way! Besides the fact that they were not soldiers. They were a paramilitary force of (opinion here -->) thugs! The Waffen-SS may have been trained as soldiers but they were not part of the Wehrmacht. Not only is it factually misleading but it's also insulting to real soldiers of any country, be they enemies or allies of my nation, to call them such. I do believe I would be justified in removing that word from this article but for the sake of those who would take exception to doing so without discussion, I post it here first. Solri89 ( talk) 02:05, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
This is an interesting question. Out of curiosity, I looked at the section in the book by Neitzel, Sönke; Welzer, Harald (2012). Soldaten: On Fighting, Killing and Dying. Simon and Schuster. ISBN 978-1-84983-949-5. to see how they treat the Waffen-SS in their discussion on the differences between Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS troops (from pp. 290 – 316). My results are below, arranged in the order of frequency of appearance on these pages (I'm using WSS for "Waffen-SS"; all instances of "SS" are about Waffen-SS):
All other references appear once:
I returned most of most of my other Waffen-SS books, but it appears * MacKenzie, S.P. (1997). Revolutionary Armies in the Modern Era: A Revisionist Approach. New York: Routledge. ISBN 978-0-415-09690-4. predominantly uses "Waffen-SS men" (see this Google books preview and put Waffen in the search box instead of Hausser).
So my inclination would be to use "Waffen-SS men" or "Waffen-SS troops" based on what I've seen in sources so far. K.e.coffman ( talk) 21:09, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for this info. In my personal opinion (yes, I said opinion - this is the talk page) I would never refer to anyone in a paramilitary organization as a Soldier because factually (here come the screaming nay-sayers) no one in such a group is a Soldier. Soldiers are members of a nations military, specifically - Army. But personally I couldn't give a rats behind if others referred to such individuals as soldiers. Except for the SS! They were dirt scum who deserved all the hell they went through upon being captured after the war. They dished it, they deserve it. As a Veteran myself I would always show respect to an individual who picks up a weapon and fights for what they believe, even if they were my enemy, whether they fought as a military member or not. But not the SS! They could've joined an honorable organization as the Wehrmacht was before the war (they committed as much atrocities as the SS after the war started) but even in that case I would still give them the benefit of the doubt that they fought and served honorably. But the scum who joined the SS instead of the Wehrmacht whether they were Waffen or one of the other types of SS could have only joined (assuming they joined voluntarily) for personal rewards of power to impress a couple of lunatics at the top echelon of that criminal organization. Or they were psychopaths from the get-go themselves. They were pure dirt that even cockroaches would look down upon them. I hope I'm not mincing my words here. Fu**ing rapist murderering cowards! The whole lot of them! If I ever had the displeasure of actually meeting one nowadays I'd spit on him, kick him and smack him like the little expletive he is! And no I wouldn't care that he'd be 90+ y/o now! They didn't care about beating and murdering 90 y/o's. And no, I'm not Jewish. My ethnicity is one of the few non-Aryan groups they tolerated and attempted to ally with. Solri89 ( talk) 21:52, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
Also, if I get banned from posting on Wikipedia's talk pages for what I just wrote - so be it! No one, no one, and I mean NO ONE should ever be "nice" to that group just to conform to the rules of society! Remember, that's what they did! Conformed with their leaders to be part of the whole. And we all know how that turned out! Solri89 ( talk) 22:01, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
Please do not get me wrong, I don't think anyone here is pro-SS. I just really don't like what they were all about. I understand why most, even those who understand they were a paramilitary organization, would refer to them as "soldiers". Most likely due to the fact that of what else would you call them? Obviously, to me, the term "Soldier" is a term of honor. It is only to be reserved for a nations military. And honor is something the entire nazi state did not have. And I did check the WP rules, and the talk page is meant not just for attempting to obtain consensus but also for opinions. I just hate them and everything that whole party stood for. I did notice though that absolutely no one jumped to defend, not specifically them but the usual attitude that's given when a "rant" is posted. The fact that no one has fills me with pride for the human race. As everyone who's reading this knows that if someone made a similar statement, let's say about the old Soviet Union, numerous people would've came to their defense or at least the defense of WP to consider such talk as taboo. And no, I didn't make that statement to "see" what would happen. I just despise them as any decent human would. About the old USSR, I just used them as an example. I have no bad feelings to that old regime. They just had a totally different political viewpoint than most of the rest of the world. As far as your point, that's what I thought you were getting at. It's just obvious to me you have more detailed knowledge on this subject so I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything. I just happen to disagree with the use of that term to describe them but understand why most people would describe them that way. Two more questions though for you. KZ? And you said the Wehrmacht was as honorable as people were led to believe... Did you mean "not as honorable"? Or is there something I have learned in the past which I was misled about concerning the Wehrmacht? Please explain. Solri89 ( talk) 00:10, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
Cool! I learned something new today! Thanks! I always wanted to learn German just cuz of their fascinating history, going back to when they were betrayed by the Roman Consul Carbo in 113 B.C. (Not positive about that year) I've always been fascinated by history. Thanks bud. Solri89 ( talk) 18:33, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
I wanted others opinions as to "Commanders" section. It is subjective who is and is not included and all are already discussed to some degree in the article. I was thinking of removing it, but wanted to hear from others first. Kierzek ( talk) 20:59, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
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Since there is clearly an edit war going on I thought we should post something to talk and discuss before more changes are made.
Regards, DMorpheus2 ( talk) 19:25, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
Is it being disputed that 900,000 men served in the Waffen-SS? K.e.coffman ( talk) 04:19, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
It was noted at another place a while ago that this article doesn't italicise Waffen-SS. It seems to me that MOS:FOREIGNITALIC says a good rule of thumb is that WP does not italicise foreign words that appear in Merriam-Webster Online. I have searched Merriam-Webster Online for Waffen and Waffen-SS and neither word/combination appears. It therefore seems that Waffen-SS does not yet have everyday use in non-specialized English, and should be italicised. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 02:52, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
I have gone through the intro and origins trying to remove material that is about the SS, and very interesting, but irrelevant IMHO to evolution of the Waffen-SS. I have done this to shorten the pieces and to keep a tighter focus. Apols to the contributors of great material that i hope is on the SS page instead.
I have also tried to strictly enforce chronology and remove the comments about the future SS or past SS that occurred often in the text. I have tried to move the material if it wasn't duplicative.
I have tried to remove the duplicative material from these two sections.
Please forgive but this was getting rather long-winded and 'bitty' reflecting a the many informed people who have contributed in many places. Facius 12:41, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
From Polish Wikipedia ( http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podgaje_%28wojew%C3%B3dztwo_wielkopolskie%29) :
"W trakcie walk o Wał Pomorski w 1945, w miejscowości Podgaje walczący po stronie niemieckiej żołnierze łotewscy z grupy bojowej "Elster", wchodzący w skład 15 Dywizji Grenadierów SS (1 łotewskiej) dokonali zbrodni na 32 żołnierzach Wojska Polskiego z 4. kompanii 3. pułku piechoty 1 Dywizji WP, którym najpierw skrępowano ręce drutem kolczastym, a następnie wprowadzono do stodoły i spalono żywcem."
During the fight for Pomeranian Wall in 1945, in the village called "Podgaje" (<-- Poland) the Latvian soldiers from the group called "Elster" (Kampfgruppe Elster) which was a part of 15th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Latvian), SS-mans of that division performed a war crime on polish prisoners, burning alive 32 soldiers of Polish Army from 4th company 3rd regiment infantry 1st Division 1AWP in a barn tied up with a barbed wire.
I'm sorry for the bad translation...but I think that you will understand it.
Proofs :
1,0 1,1 Majewski Ryszard: Waffen SS. Mity i rzeczywistość. Krajowa Agencja Wydawnicza, Wrocław, 1983, s. 247. ISBN 83-03-00102-7.
2,0 2,1 Zawilski Apoloniusz: Polskie fronty. Oficyna Wydawnicza Volumen, Warszawa, 1996, s. 463 (tom2). ISBN 83-86857-23-4.
Grzelak, Stańczyk, Zwoliński: Armia Berlinga i Żymierskiego, Warszawa, 2002, ISBN 83-88973-27-4
Polski czyn zbrojny w II wojnie światowej. Wydawnictwo Ministerstwa Obrony Narodowej, Warszawa, 1988, s.531 (tom 3). ISBN 83-11-07038-5.
-- Greetings [[User:Krzyzowiec|Krzyzowiec]] ( talk) 03:06, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
It appears fair to mention that members/POWs of Waffen-SS units were the frequent object of summary executions and other atrocities either by regular allied troups or so-called "résistance" members regardless of personal responsibility, especially on the Eastern front or in the Balkans. The article should be extended to account for this aspect. -- Meudonnais ( talk) 10:01, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
In doing so, attention should be paid to the issue that SS personnel, not being regular soldiers, were not obviously covered by the Geneva Convention on the law of war, as well as the recurrent use of ruses by SS troops who feigned surrender far more frequently than they actually captulated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.161.222.148 ( talk) 01:01, 21 August 2008 (UTC) ]
Well, let's talk about them. On the Eastern Front the German army calculatedly starved, froze or shot 3 million Russian POWs on the first year of the war and liquidated Russian Jews in 2 years, used mass murder as a means to fight partisans and executed any communist party member civilian or military. The courtsey was returned with feeling. After Canadian POWs were murdered the 12 SS Div, the Canadians stopped taking SS prisoners. The US Army stopped taking SS prisoners in retaliation of the Malmedy massacre. And what is that with the peculiar use of the phrase "so-called resistence fighters"? Methinks I detected Neo-Nazism in the air. Chin Cheng-chuan
Actually, Meudonnais does have a point, just because war crimes were commited by the SS, does not mean we should attempt to minimalize or perhaps even not cover war crimes commited by allied soldiers. -Anonymous —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.83.49.13 ( talk) 06:07, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
It should be noted that it is untrue to say that the Waffen SS did not participate in the Holocaust while the so-called "regular SS" did. Aftering being wounded, a great many Waffen SS men were assigned duty as concentration camp guards in the rear during their recuperation periods. They would then rotate back to their front-line unit after fully recuperating. For more on this, please see Charles Sydnor's "Soldiers of Destruction." 76.111.6.4 ( talk) 03:38, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
"Vollendetes 17tes Lebensjahr" means you are 17 years old, not 18. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.117.83.13 ( talk) 22:21, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, this is true. This phrase means the day when someone turn 17. -- 78.51.106.248 ( talk) 18:30, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
The descriptor of "Third Reich" as a country has little validity. Units of the Waffen SS raised in conquered territories were raised, deployed, commanded and supplied by the structure of the German state. The postage stamps of that era indicate 'Deutsches Reich' and the railway 'Deutsche Reichsbahn'. The term 'Drittes Reich' is and was used as a political term to describe a period of a distinct form of German aspiration to
1. emulate a previous era of influence and control of disparate ethnic/language groups by a pre-eminent nation (that is the Holy Roman Empire) and
2. an era of aggressive 'unionising' of German speaking states by Prussia/Otto von Bismarck via wars with neighbour nations (Denmark, Austria and France).
The "Country" should, I feel, read 'Germany'. The inclusion of a "Garrison/HQ" is surely superfluous, as is "March", "Anniversaries","Colors", "Nickname" and "Motto". Himmler was its C-in-C. In Britain the Queen is a patron of many organisations including the RSPCA (Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals) but she doesn't run any of them. I detect an emotional, even glorifying overlay to this article rather than a rigorous objective summation. Gr1bble8s ( talk) 20:29, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I think this article is terrible and written in incredible poor taste, but Third Reich is considered accurate historical vocabulary. As in:
First Reich-Holy Roman Empire
Second Reich-The German Empire/Imperial Hohenstauffen
Third Reich-Nazi Germany
I agree the "motto" and the "nickname" should be ommitted from the box. -Chengchuan Chin
I don't believe anyone referred to the Holy Roman Empire as the "First" Reich or Bismarckian Germany as the "Second" Reich until the Hitler era.
Historian932 (
talk)
21:10, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
The article must have a link for SS' tatoos.Article about SS' tatoos: [ [1]] and [ [2]] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Agre22 ( talk • contribs) 03:34, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
"For example, Dutchmen who joined the 34.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division Landstorm Nederland were granted exemption from forced labour and provided with food, pay and accommodation. Recruits who joined for such reasons rarely proved good soldiers, and several units composed of such volunteers were involved in atrocities."
Is there any proof for that statement? Many warcrimes were committed by mostly German-Units, like Totenkopf. Who very often joined the SS because of its ideology and not "because of food, pay or accomodation". And they often proved excellent soldiers though they were indeed involved in many atrocities. Therefore I strongly doubt that this statement is true, that rather "unmotivated" soldiers committed more atrocities than ideologically motivated/convinced SS-soldiers.
87.176.204.247 ( talk) 10:28, 9 November 2008 (UTC) German, Freiburg
Many Latvian "volunteers" were actually conscripted after February 1943, even though Nazi propaganda claimed that they had consented to join the Waffen-SS (Latvian Legion 15th and 19th Divisions). The Nazis called these Latvian conscripts volunteers in order to avoid the 1907 Hague Convention rules (which stated that citizens from occupied countries could not be conscripted by occupying forces). However, prior to February 10, 1943 some Latvians actually did join these divisions as volunteers but the vast majority did so not for Nazi ideals but because they wanted arms and financing to liberate their country from the Soviet occupation that began in 1940. Therefore, amongst themselves they referred to their divisions as the "Latvian Legion" (in a fight for national self-determination) rather than as Waffen-SS fighting for Hitler.
that needs so much citation its not even funny. 'the vast majority'? 'amongst themselves?' can we get some statistics on what proportion joined 'not for nazi ideals but to liberate their country from the USSR'? Obviously there must be a document showing entrance polling concerning motivation for latvian SS members, otherwise the author wouldn't have made such a baseless assertion... ... .. right? 76.16.46.233 ( talk) 02:38, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
The article states that the SS was formed because of Hitler's "unease" with the "size and strength of the SA"...I thought it was because he wanted an absolutely dependable group of men based in each town/city in Germany that would protect him when he drove around giving speeches (this is before he had achieved any political power, and communists would attempt to break up nationalist meetings). Historian932 ( talk) 21:07, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
IMHO this article along with a number of others to do with the SS/atrocities/holocaust should be locked down. It is such an emotive subject that people constantly edit it without paying enough attention to grammar, good English, the context of their contribution w.r.t. the rest of the article, and most of all POV issues. This is bad for the reputation of English Wikipedia and the quality of its articles. Surely there is a better way of dealing with articles containing contentious issues. I can imagine this would apply to Arab-Israeli issues even more. 1812ahill ( talk) 05:49, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
The Biblio section contains the following entry:
Flaherty, T.H (2004). The Third Reich:The SS (1st Edition ed.). Caxton Publishing Group. ISBN 1 84447 073 3.
The Caxton Publishing Group website shows no evidence of TH Flaherty or his book. Neither Google Books nor Amazon.com list the it. A Library of Congress (which, by law, should list every book published in the USA) search returns 'Invalid ISBN'.
This reference underpins a great deal of the article. Unless someone demonstrates the book is real and credible, and corrects the reference with a valid ISBN, I will procede with deletion. Dduff442 ( talk) 06:51, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
--Found it via ISBN link on wiki. Publisher is Time Life Books, not Caxton, and title is wrong. This is a spectacularly obscure title, from a non-academic source. Better sources than this are needed. Dduff442 ( talk) 06:58, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
The sidebar to the right of this page has an entry under "Motto" which seems to state that SS men were given an HJ dagger upon their graduation. I think this is a case of faulty reference in English, in that the author intended to say that all HJ members received a dagger upon their HJ graduation day. (I suspect that they received their daggers well before that.) In any case, is this really relevant? It has nothing to do with the SS motto, which is correctly stated. I think this information is confusing at best, and possibly wrong. In any case, it should probably be removed. Rkieran ( talk) 21:13, 27 October 2010 (UTC)rkieran
Having read your Waffen SS webpage I have come across the comment upon the Malmedy Massacre. Having read a couple of British and American books on the subject, plus one Belgian book by Gerd Cuppens, including webpages from Willy Alenus and Henri Rogister, I consider it totally irresponsible and in no way supported by facts to declare that 90 GIs had been murdered at the site. 72 + 12 bodies of GIs had been recovered from mid-January to March 1945 within a radius of 250 to 500 meters from the Five Points Road Crossing. All known witnesses' statements considered with a minimum of investigative sense do not support a massacre: for instance that most GIs had fled into some nearby woods after having survived the first shelling of the U.S. convoy and would therefore neither qualify as having been taken prisoner, leave alone having been massacred in the process. Most bodies appear to be those of fallen soldiers. Individual acts of murder still remain unsolved by normal police procedure standards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.235.64.76 ( talk) 19:00, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
Having read on your Waffen-SS page that ca. 90 U.S. soldiers have been murdered by SS-troops at Malmedy I was truly astonished that any such irresponsible and unsupported views would still be published. Most British and American publications on the matter in question have voiced at least some doubt on the matter, some take an even more outspokenly pro-German view. Some Belgian authors have almost come to the point of denial and keep only some doubts alive, pertaining to individual acts of murder in the aftermath of a brutally stopped, attempted escape of U.S. GIs. Belgians who saw what happended and who exchanged their knowledge immediately after the events were never called up as witnesses at the Dachau trials. One said that most (that is more than half, maybe about 40-50 men) of the American survivors of the first shelling of the U.S. convoy fled into nearby woods. This clearly disqualifies them from having been taken prisoners in the first place and to have been massacred as a consequence, either through machinegun fire or murderous, individual pistol or rifle shots afterwards. About 20 men of a route marking detail (see Rogister) and 35 latecomers (Sgt. Bechtel) out of 152 men of the 285th FAOB's complement never arrived at the scene. Ca. 36 prisoners from other U.S. units had arrived there on German vehicles. According to W.Alenus, G.Cuppens, and H. Rogister another ca. 54(?)GIs had had left the scene alive. How many of those had actually been prisoners? Two Belgian witnesses speak of between 13 and 28 killed GIs in the "killing field". It must be assumed that the 72+12 bodies recovered between mid-January and March 1945 had been killed in action except the 13 to 28 mentioned by either one of the two Belgians. All bodies were found near the road crossing and up to 250 meters (72 bodies)to 500 meters(12 bodies) distance from it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Buchorn ( talk • contribs) 22:14, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
Having read on your Waffen-SS page that ca. 90 U.S. soldiers have been murdered by SS-troops at Malmedy I was truly astonished that any such irresponsible and unsupported views would still be published. Most British and American publications on the matter in question have voiced at least some doubt on the matter, some take an even more outspokenly pro-German view. Some Belgian authors have almost come to the point of denial and keep only some doubts alive, pertaining to individual acts of murder in the aftermath of a brutally stopped, attempted escape of U.S. GIs. Belgians who saw what happended and who exchanged their knowledge immediately after the events were never called up as witnesses at the Dachau trials. One said that most (that is more than half, maybe about 40-50 men) of the American survivors of the first shelling of the U.S. convoy fled into nearby woods. This clearly disqualifies them from having been taken prisoners in the first place and to have been massacred as a consequence, either through machinegun fire or murderous, individual pistol or rifle shots afterwards. About 20 men of a route marking detail (see Rogister) and 35 latecomers (Sgt. Bechtel) out of 152 men of the 285th FAOB's complement never arrived at the scene. Ca. 36 prisoners from other U.S. units had arrived there on German vehicles. According to W.Alenus, G.Cuppens, and H. Rogister another ca. 54(?)GIs had had left the scene alive. How many of those had actually been prisoners? Two Belgian witnesses speak of between 13 and 28 killed GIs in the "killing field". It must be assumed that the 72+12 bodies recovered between mid-January and March 1945 had been killed in action except the 13 to 28 mentioned by either one of the two Belgians. All bodies were found near the road crossing and up to 250 meters (72 bodies)to 500 meters(12 bodies) distance from it. Buchorn ( talk) 22:24, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
To think that Wikipedia allows a Nazi sympathizer as an "Editor" to delete unsavory details of Hitler and his Waffen SS that were the personable twisted logic of Mein Kampf in a Uniform. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.108.164.2 ( talk) 20:03, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
I restored that conscripts did not swear formal allegiance. Heni's text says nothing in this regard. Additionally, Heni's position is that commemoration of the Waffen SS glorifies the Holocaust. For example:
Commemoration of the Waffen SS (in this case Latvian Legion) has nothing to do with Arajs or praising any actions of Nazi collaborators in the Holocaust. Please feel free to include such (regretfully, inflammatory and baseless, but all scholars are entitled to their opinion) contentions in contemporary reactions to commemoration. VєсrumЬа ► TALK 18:22, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
Note on the matter: Davies, Norman (1998) , Europe: A History, Harper Perennial , ISBN: 978-0060974688; "...recruitment drive for three Latvian divisions of the Waffen-SS. The men swore an oath 'to struggle against Bolshevism ' and 'to obey the commander-in-chief of the German armed forces, Adolf Hitler'." (see Appendix III, pp. 1326-7). Kierzek ( talk) 16:28, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
(od) @Paul, please desist your WP:SYNTHESIS to tar and feather the Latvian Legion as war criminals. They were not. The pre-Legion/non-Legion units who were collaborators are dealt with separately elsewhere on those topics. As for my alleged conflicting with sources:
We're done here. Do not insist again that "fighting the USSR", the first invaders of the Baltics in collusion with Hitler equals "fighting the Allies". And don't ridicule me again. With that action you have permanently exhausted my well of WP:AGF with regard to your participation on any subject matter touching upon Latvia and the Baltics. VєсrumЬа ► TALK 14:08, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
OK, now ( [3]) the formulation "Allegiance: Adolf Hitler, in cases limited to combat against the USSR" starts looking strange (this discussion would indicate that this qualifier only applies to foreign volunteers, right?)... If there is a disagreement about the right way to qualify this field, wouldn't it be better to drop it instead? After all, infoboxes are for completely undisputed and clear information only, aren't they..? -- Martynas Patasius ( talk) 23:05, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/1183. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Dianna ( talk) 02:51, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Can we change it to "Herrenvolk"? All other German nouns in the article are compliant with German grammar (capitalised first letter), apart from this one. Makes it look kind of odd! FerociousFranky ( talk)
The quote at the end of the intro "An exception was made for Waffen-SS conscripts sworn in after 1943" begs the question I gave in the title. Would it be correct to change that to "An exception was made for Waffen-SS conscripts, who were sworn in after 1943"?
And to be clear, I'm assuming that there were no conscripts before 1943. AngusCA ( talk) 14:07, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Do either of the two quotations recently added by User:Jonas Vinther belong in the lead? Or perhaps later in the article?
After consideration I agree the first not does not belong in the lead, but perhaps later in the article as you said, although I would not have added the new one if I didn't believe it should be in the lead. Jonas Vinther ( talk) 23:09, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
A contributor seems intent on adding quotations from former Waffen-SS members to the lede. I would ask that per WP:BRD such changes be discussed rather than edit-warred over. As I made clear in my edit summary, I feel that such quotes are undue, and add little to the article anyway. That former Waffen-SS members will attempt to minimise or justify their behaviour is hardly unexpected - but it adds little meaningful content to the article. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 23:08, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
I agree that any Waffen-SS survivor would do anything to justify or excuse their actions, I just added a simple example of that. Like I said earlier, I agree that that one should probably not be in the lead, but the new one should. But of course this is just my opinion. Jonas Vinther ( talk) 23:12, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
Oh well... I guess all my contributions and says are completely non-important and "more of less useless"... Whatever. Jonas Vinther ( talk) 23:19, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
In the position that I find myself in, I'm going politely hide my irritation and not make any future edits on this page. Jonas Vinther ( talk) 23:31, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
The recently removed logos appear to have been taken from recruitment posters such as can be seen here and here. In fact the description for image File:Logo-WaffenSS.jpg states "self-made, cut from a recruitment poster". If you could please clarify why this has been removed that would be great. -- Diannaa ( talk) 15:47, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
I believe we should not use something copied off a recruiting poster when we have the sleeve eagle, which is distinctive. Another option I flagged earlier is to use a pic of a Waffen-SS soldier. There is nothing that says we have to have a logo there. Cheers, Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 21:39, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
Do you people think it's worth mentioning that Himmler, in 1940, introduced sex dolls for the Waffen-SS as a way to combat Syphilis at the front? I have a source here from The Huffington Post. Jonas Vinther ( talk) 13:45, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
"jews and poles remained banned" - can anybody confirm this?-- 212.118.232.148 ( talk) 10:31, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
Well, considering the fact that the Waffen-SS was a great multi-ethnic organization, and that the German Army had some Jewish soldiers and officers, I, also, would like to have someone confirm this. I have also heard in a BBC documentary that poles boosted the German conscripts in later 1944. Jonas Vinther ( talk) 23:14, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
This article has virtually no info on the super strict entry requirements of the Waffen-SS. I have sources which claims that out of every 100 applicants, only 7 were accepted. Furthermore, Dietrich insisted that all members had to be mature, between the ages of 23 to 35, in superb physical condition, and have a perfect ancestry record. All this could be fill out a section of its own. I'd like someone else's take on this. Cheers, Jonas Vinther • ( speak to me!) 11:42, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
Has Flaherty ever been discussed as reliable? It appears that he's not a historian (nor a scholar). In addition to The Third Reich: The SS, he's also written:
At best he writes 'popular history' and his book could well be a redundant tertiary source. He's referenced 23 times on the article's page.
Thought on this? -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 04:50, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
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help)Hi, I've made considerable revisions to the linked article HIAG. I would like to update the HIAG section in this article to the lead from the HIAG main article as follows:
HIAG ( German: Hilfsgemeinschaft auf Gegenseitigkeit der Angehörigen der ehemaligen Waffen-SS, literally "Mutual aid association of former Waffen-SS members") was a lobby group and a revisionist veteran's organisation founded by former high-ranking Waffen-SS personnel in West Germany in 1951. It campaigned for the legal, economic and historical rehabilitation of the Waffen-SS, using contacts with political parties to manipulate them for its purposes.
HIAG's historical revisionism encompassed multi-prong propaganda efforts, including periodicals, books and public speeches, alongside a publishing house that served as a platform for its publicity aims. This extensive body of work – 57 book titles and more than 50 years of monthly periodicals – have been described by historians as revisionist apologia.
Always in touch with its Nazi past, HIAG was a subject of significant controversy, both in West Germany and abroad. The organisation drifted into right-wing extremism in its later history; it was disbanded in 1992 at the federal level, but local groups, along with the organisation's monthly periodical, continued to exist at least through the 2000s, possibly into the 2010s.
While HIAG only partially achieved its goals of legal and economic rehabilitation of Waffen-SS, its propaganda efforts led to the reshaping of the image of Waffen-SS in popular culture. The results are still felt, with scholarly treatments drowned out by a large amount of amateur historical studies, memoirs, picture books, websites and wargames.
---Section ends---
Since this is a copy paste from the lead of the article, it currently contains no citations. I will provide detailed citations as this new content is introduced into the article. I would also like to replace the image as not relevant to HIAG's activities. Please let me know if there are any objections. K.e.coffman ( talk) 06:34, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
I don't believe this long list of nationalities is not needed in the lead, especially as we get down to the "15-20 volunteers" from the U.S.A.:
I suggest moving it into the body of the article as this level of detail is not needed in the lead. Would like to hear what others says. K.e.coffman ( talk) 05:36, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
There seem to be some confusion here? The intro says: "nations considered by Nazis to be "sub-human" like ethnic Poles or Jews remained excluded". I find this very hard to believe: I have sources from BBC that says that Waffen-SS divisions, particularly in 1944-45, had been boosted with Czech and Polish conscripts. Also, the German Army did indeed have many Jewish soldiers. Around 150,000 people with Jewish blood or ancestry would eventually serve in the German Wehrmacht, those included: 2 field marshals, 2 full generals, 8 lieutenant generals, and 5 major generals, and some of these would be awarded The Knights Cross. To name a few famous-Jews-serving-in-the-German-Army: Anton Mayer, Werner Goldberg, Helmut Wilberg, Walter Hollaender, Bernard Rogge, Paul Ascher, Horst Geitner who received the Iron Cross 2nd Class and Silver Wound Badge, Hermann Aub, and of course Emil Maurice.
I'd like someone else's opinion on this. Jonas Vinther ( talk) 13:16, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Peacemaker67, my point in mentioning the German Jews in the German army was to prove that people besides "Aryan Germans" did indeed fight for Germany, which is not commonly mentioned or believed. Besides, the Waffen-SS is famous for being multi-ethnic and multi-national military force, so I find it hard to believe that Poles and Jews remained banned, especially since the sources I have prove otherwise. Some people still deny that any non-Germans fought for Germany. Here is the link to the Ningus-Martin/BBC sources. I firmly believe the delete-editing I have done is entirely good faith. Jonas Vinther ( talk) 21:42, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
You guys are more or less just repeating each other in defriend formulations. Also, I actually just wanted someone to confirm that Poles and Jews remained banned, didn't try to prove you defriend, but merely said I found that hard to believe since I've always been under the impression Poles were allowed, and since many Jews served in the German Army, which is not known for being a multi-ethnic or multi-national military force, it didn't quite make sense. Jonas Vinther ( talk) 13:45, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Correcting grammar is childish and a sign you have run out of meaningful things to mention. I'm not going to feel intimidated because you correct my grammar. Also, I have again and again emphasized my points which is, not surprisingly, being more of less neglected. I'm going to tell you the same thing I tell other users in similar situations: do whatever you feel is best for Wikipedia, I don't care because I know I have my heart and mind in the right place and is making a difference on Wikipedia. All edits I have done and will do in the future is done solely in the belief it's good faith edits. Jonas Vinther ( talk) 12:53, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
As for Jews serving in the SS I know factually of only one. Don't remember his name and I don't really care enough to look it up (I'm only adding to this discussion and don't care at all if it's added). I saw this on a documentary on Netflix. He worked for the SS office that wanted to revise the "glory" of Aryans, whatever that office was called. I'm 99.9% positive though it was not the Waffen-SS though. All this Jewish SS officer wanted was to find the Holy Grail and only Himmler's SS would fund him - but the SS did not know he was Jewish. Here's my 2/5th's of a nickel about what Vinther said above though: making all these statements about Jews in the Wehrmacht seems misleading in this discussion since we're talking about the SS. Solri89 ( talk) 01:11, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
After I opened up this page to learn more history, the first thing that pops up is that pic of SS guys and the caption calls them soldiers. As an actual Veteran Soldier I take great exemption to the SS being called honorable in any way! Besides the fact that they were not soldiers. They were a paramilitary force of (opinion here -->) thugs! The Waffen-SS may have been trained as soldiers but they were not part of the Wehrmacht. Not only is it factually misleading but it's also insulting to real soldiers of any country, be they enemies or allies of my nation, to call them such. I do believe I would be justified in removing that word from this article but for the sake of those who would take exception to doing so without discussion, I post it here first. Solri89 ( talk) 02:05, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
This is an interesting question. Out of curiosity, I looked at the section in the book by Neitzel, Sönke; Welzer, Harald (2012). Soldaten: On Fighting, Killing and Dying. Simon and Schuster. ISBN 978-1-84983-949-5. to see how they treat the Waffen-SS in their discussion on the differences between Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS troops (from pp. 290 – 316). My results are below, arranged in the order of frequency of appearance on these pages (I'm using WSS for "Waffen-SS"; all instances of "SS" are about Waffen-SS):
All other references appear once:
I returned most of most of my other Waffen-SS books, but it appears * MacKenzie, S.P. (1997). Revolutionary Armies in the Modern Era: A Revisionist Approach. New York: Routledge. ISBN 978-0-415-09690-4. predominantly uses "Waffen-SS men" (see this Google books preview and put Waffen in the search box instead of Hausser).
So my inclination would be to use "Waffen-SS men" or "Waffen-SS troops" based on what I've seen in sources so far. K.e.coffman ( talk) 21:09, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for this info. In my personal opinion (yes, I said opinion - this is the talk page) I would never refer to anyone in a paramilitary organization as a Soldier because factually (here come the screaming nay-sayers) no one in such a group is a Soldier. Soldiers are members of a nations military, specifically - Army. But personally I couldn't give a rats behind if others referred to such individuals as soldiers. Except for the SS! They were dirt scum who deserved all the hell they went through upon being captured after the war. They dished it, they deserve it. As a Veteran myself I would always show respect to an individual who picks up a weapon and fights for what they believe, even if they were my enemy, whether they fought as a military member or not. But not the SS! They could've joined an honorable organization as the Wehrmacht was before the war (they committed as much atrocities as the SS after the war started) but even in that case I would still give them the benefit of the doubt that they fought and served honorably. But the scum who joined the SS instead of the Wehrmacht whether they were Waffen or one of the other types of SS could have only joined (assuming they joined voluntarily) for personal rewards of power to impress a couple of lunatics at the top echelon of that criminal organization. Or they were psychopaths from the get-go themselves. They were pure dirt that even cockroaches would look down upon them. I hope I'm not mincing my words here. Fu**ing rapist murderering cowards! The whole lot of them! If I ever had the displeasure of actually meeting one nowadays I'd spit on him, kick him and smack him like the little expletive he is! And no I wouldn't care that he'd be 90+ y/o now! They didn't care about beating and murdering 90 y/o's. And no, I'm not Jewish. My ethnicity is one of the few non-Aryan groups they tolerated and attempted to ally with. Solri89 ( talk) 21:52, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
Also, if I get banned from posting on Wikipedia's talk pages for what I just wrote - so be it! No one, no one, and I mean NO ONE should ever be "nice" to that group just to conform to the rules of society! Remember, that's what they did! Conformed with their leaders to be part of the whole. And we all know how that turned out! Solri89 ( talk) 22:01, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
Please do not get me wrong, I don't think anyone here is pro-SS. I just really don't like what they were all about. I understand why most, even those who understand they were a paramilitary organization, would refer to them as "soldiers". Most likely due to the fact that of what else would you call them? Obviously, to me, the term "Soldier" is a term of honor. It is only to be reserved for a nations military. And honor is something the entire nazi state did not have. And I did check the WP rules, and the talk page is meant not just for attempting to obtain consensus but also for opinions. I just hate them and everything that whole party stood for. I did notice though that absolutely no one jumped to defend, not specifically them but the usual attitude that's given when a "rant" is posted. The fact that no one has fills me with pride for the human race. As everyone who's reading this knows that if someone made a similar statement, let's say about the old Soviet Union, numerous people would've came to their defense or at least the defense of WP to consider such talk as taboo. And no, I didn't make that statement to "see" what would happen. I just despise them as any decent human would. About the old USSR, I just used them as an example. I have no bad feelings to that old regime. They just had a totally different political viewpoint than most of the rest of the world. As far as your point, that's what I thought you were getting at. It's just obvious to me you have more detailed knowledge on this subject so I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything. I just happen to disagree with the use of that term to describe them but understand why most people would describe them that way. Two more questions though for you. KZ? And you said the Wehrmacht was as honorable as people were led to believe... Did you mean "not as honorable"? Or is there something I have learned in the past which I was misled about concerning the Wehrmacht? Please explain. Solri89 ( talk) 00:10, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
Cool! I learned something new today! Thanks! I always wanted to learn German just cuz of their fascinating history, going back to when they were betrayed by the Roman Consul Carbo in 113 B.C. (Not positive about that year) I've always been fascinated by history. Thanks bud. Solri89 ( talk) 18:33, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
I wanted others opinions as to "Commanders" section. It is subjective who is and is not included and all are already discussed to some degree in the article. I was thinking of removing it, but wanted to hear from others first. Kierzek ( talk) 20:59, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
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Since there is clearly an edit war going on I thought we should post something to talk and discuss before more changes are made.
Regards, DMorpheus2 ( talk) 19:25, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
Is it being disputed that 900,000 men served in the Waffen-SS? K.e.coffman ( talk) 04:19, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
It was noted at another place a while ago that this article doesn't italicise Waffen-SS. It seems to me that MOS:FOREIGNITALIC says a good rule of thumb is that WP does not italicise foreign words that appear in Merriam-Webster Online. I have searched Merriam-Webster Online for Waffen and Waffen-SS and neither word/combination appears. It therefore seems that Waffen-SS does not yet have everyday use in non-specialized English, and should be italicised. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 02:52, 15 December 2016 (UTC)