This is an
archive of past discussions for the period January 2007 to December 2007. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
South Park did an entire episode spoof on this. Add it.
-G —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.117.158.83 ( talk) 04:58, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
'"His conversations, dense with biblical imagery, alienated the federal negotiators who treated the situation as a hostage crisis."
The mental image of 25 FBI hostage negotiators describing their feelings of alienation is hilarious.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.28.228.168 ( talk • contribs) 08:59, 24 December 2007
I'd like to propose this infobox be changed or removed. A military conflict infobox seems very out of place to me. This was fundamentally a law enforcement action that went terribly wrong, not a military conflict or "battle." The goal of law enforcement in any action, whether making a traffic stop or sending in a SWAT team, is to enforce laws while reducing the risk of loss of life -- whether that of the police or those they're arresting. I wager that most law enforcement officers would be aghast at being called a combatant and I seriously doubt the FBI would call this a "decisive victory." At best, it was a phyrric victory. croll 14:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Rick —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.251.13.53 ( talk) 19:19, 11 February 2007 (UTC).
This article is clearly broken and it cannot be asserted that it maintains an unbiased point of view. I do not have an opinion as to who was to "blame" for the outcome of the Waco Siege. Howevever, it appears that although most of the statements made in this article are presented with a neutral point of view, the preponderance of the information and citations presented tends to favour the Branch Davidians. I am familiar with the reporting and the literature related to the siege, and suffice it to say, the evidence is inconclusive as to several of the key incidents involved.
In short, it is obvious that there has been a significant amount of cherry-picking of articles/sources favourable to the Branch Davidians, such that it does not provide a clear picture as to the extent of the controversy surrounding the events of the siege. I therefore don't think its useful to argue about specific statements made in this article. This article as a whole holds that there was some sort of conspiracy by the authorities against the Branch Davidians, when in fact the evidence is, again, inconclusive. -- Lonesome road 15:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the editors speaking on the NPOV violations here and did some minor cleaning up. First, I Deleted the time magazine cover with Koresh's laughing face superimposed over a fiery background. That can be considered propaganda to make Koresh appear to be something along the lines of a madman. We're not here to judge, but to enter factual information. Any picture here should be a photo of the seige itself. Second, I don't know who's idea it was to give this an info box stating this was a military conflict, with the FBI having a "decisive victory", but it's completely inappropriate. Removed the military conflict references. Any other good ideas to get this article into the realm of total neutrality, I'm all for it. Chairman Sharif 23:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
When I came to this article I found a mess. It was incoherent, lacked narrative, was badly written and full of weasel words.
I have stripped out a lot of the cruft (including the wholly irrelevant "Culturual references" section, Wikipedia is not a collection of indiscriminate facts), rewritten some parts, and moved others to more logical sections.
Hopefully the result is an article with a logical flow and structure, better writing, and minus a lot of the anti-government bias that was present.
I have also removed the NPOV dispute and unreferenced tags. If someone feels there still are NPOV state precisely what they are below before re-adding the tag. Dan100 ( Talk) 18:40, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Most of the material supplied by them has been proven completely false through the trials and congressional hearings. I'd be very leary of using anything they have to say, as some evidence suggests they were "in bed with the feds". As a matter of fact, it looks like almost the entire first couple paragraphs are filled with about 5% fact, 90% faction, 5% exaggeration.. Ernham 01:15, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I conducted a references re-write.
I removed the following under the terms of Wikipedia:Verifiability as it is unsourced and I dispute the veracity of the claims. It can be restored with a suitable reference is provided.
Several mothers sent their children out of the complex following promises by the FBI that they would be placed with family members. Unrelated senior citizens who had gone with the children were arrested and the children were taken into state custody and then placed in a religious children's home.
The mothers of these children voiced concern about them and the treatment they were receiving. In reply they received a video sent by the negotiators. The mothers were disturbed that their children were being fed things forbidden by their religious diet and (in their view harmfully) were being allowed to run wild with minimal supervision while watching television. This violation of the promises destroyed any possibility of further trust of the FBI, making the negotiators' job all but impossible.
On 6 March (day 7) Schneider mentions during recorded negotiations that he thinks the FBI will try to burn the building to destroy the evidence of exactly what happened during the initial raid.
It's clear that thier mothers thought they would have input on where the children went because they placed notes in the childrens pockets instructing to turn them over to the care of relatives. "Ashes of Waco p.227" Same source, same page documents the concerns resulting from videos the FBI sent in. The children were turned over to TDCPS who in turn place 20 of the children in a Methodist group home http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/waco311.html
Elderly people who left were arrested on conspiracy to commit murder charges and paraded out for the press cameras. "For example, two elderly women, Margaret Lawson and Catherine Mattson, were released from the compound on March 2, 1993. The next day, the United States Attorney's Office (after consulting with at least one FBI supervisor), charged the two women in a criminal complaint with conspiracy to commit murder." http://www.usdoj.gov/05publications/waco/wacofourteen.html
The Schneider "burn the evidence" reference is cited here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/timeline.html
I believe these sources should resolve your dispute. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.251.12.226 ( talk) 13:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC).
I trimmed this section and made reference to the use of loud noise as part of the generally more aggressive techniques adopted later in the seige. Under the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view policy no one element should be given undue prominence over and above others. The use of loud sound is not particularly unusual being a common siege tactic, and does not warrant a unique section (a better idea would be to write an article on the subject, and then link to it).
If you disagree with changes I have made, you need to make verifiable statements using sources that you feel support your point of view (remember the neutral point of view aims to present all sides fairly). You cannot remove material that is referenced, instead, if you feel the statements are incorrect, you need to provide sources that present the alternate point of view.
Thanks for reading, Dan100 ( Talk) 10:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
As per discussions above, the military conflict infobox was removed as it was irrelevant and the fields have no bearing on a law enforcement incident. Devious Viper 19:35, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't disagree with some of that, but we have to save our POV for a pro/anti website - this is an encyclopaedia. I agree that the respective federal agencies were gung ho, that there was almost definitely a series of illegal actions with regard to Posse Commitatus, that Delta were probably shooting Davidians trying to escape from the rear of the compound, that a shaped charge was used on top of the "bunker" etc etc etc. BUT here we can only put the "facts" that are verifiable - not necessarily the "truth". And I still say that the mil info box is misleading, inaccurate, and an insult to the victims of the whole sorry affair Viper 19:08, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Introduction says that 81 people died in the fire; further down the article it says 74. Which is correct? Also, counting "2 unborn children" as people is definitely not NPOV. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.83.156.199 ( talk) 16:46, 20 February 2007 (UTC).
As mentioned on the "Category:Sieges involving the United States" talk page, I intend to remove the Waco Siege from that list unless I hear otherwise by April 10.
I offer two main reasons.
1) It is of a different sort from all the other (proper) sieges on this page.
2) The facts even as disputed on this page do not fit Wikipedia's definition of "siege" ("a military blockade of a city or fortress"). If every law-enforcement standoff qualifies as a "siege," then there will be thousands of entries on this page -- they happen literally every day all over the United States. Jcfreed 09:56, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I would have to agree with Yaf here. When culturally referenced as a "siege", this event should be considered as such, even though the Wiki definition varies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thewindmaster ( talk • contribs) 16:46, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
No mention of the FACT that the US Military had members of the Combat Applications Group present at Waco? There is verifiable evidence of this FACT and bureaucrats have at various times admitted and denied this. Needs to be included. Ikilled007 05:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't know enough about this topic to comment on whether it is factually accurate, but I do know that it is filled with POV against the ATF/FBI, particularly through the use of weasel words. The extent of the bias makes it irritating to read. The entire article needs a rewrite. Ultiam 03:30, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree, this article is full of weasel words directed against the ATF/FBI but I also don't know enough about this issue. -- Dcsmith 14:32, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
The weasel words are directed against the branch davidians as well. For example, in the the minute by minute transcripts, wherever a davidian says something about gasoline or starting a fire, there is no cite as to where this came from, while there are citations for everything else. 139.182.146.55 21:05, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
In fact, there is NOT ONE source provided for the entire "Investigation" section of the article. This section of the article in particular makes it's points based entirely on opinion, assumption, and unsourced "facts". 71.196.201.195 02:21, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
In section 7.1 "Aftermath - Trial", someone has typed (and I quote) "BARNEY KILLED UR MOM IN WACO HE THROUGH FIREY SHIT AT UR DOG". Owing to the sensitivity of the subject matter, the ongoing issue with regards to NPOV and weasel words, and the potential for spam and vandalism, this page should be semi- or even fully-protected as soon as the spam has been removed. Opinions? 86.143.162.224 16:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
EDIT: I have now removed the offending phrase, but please offer your opinions on write-protecting this page 86.143.162.224 16:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
EDIT: In the 'The Raid' section, the ATF is described as having a "search and fuck warrant." This further substantiates the above point.
I've made some additions here, but this article is still of poor quality, and is now overlong. Rather than presenting an evenhanded treatment of the controversy, it reads, as others have noted, like a point/counterpoint of various POVs, some of which are extreme, unsubstantiated, and/or of questionable relevance. To my mind, the main issues that make the events at Waco important and interesting more than a decade after they occurred are lost in the bickering. Did ATF display a serious lack of judgment in serving its warrant when its plan was so well known that reporters arrived on the scene before the agents did? In view of the perhaps unsurprising outcome, should FBI have accumulated 2 tanks, 10 Bradley fighting vehicles, humvees, nightstalker aircraft, helicopters, and the assistance of the army, air force, and two state national guards--even if so doing was technically within the bounds of the law? I can't say that these questions are evident from what we have here.
I would agree with Ultiam that this article needs a total rewrite. A rewrite, though, will involve the deletion of substantial portions of what is already here. Before that process begins, let's hear from some of the other contributors.
Puzurinsusinak 17:30, 27 May 2007 (UTC)Puzurinsusinak
Yes, I'll agree that there's a lot of "battleing POV's" as it were, but that's the nature of the beast here. You have on one side, dozens of federal agents who might be subject to criminal charges if the other side is right. On the "other side," the branch Davidians, you have most of the major actors dead (justifiably or at their own hand, according to the ATF/FBI). Thus, the situation itself lends itself away from being able to objectively verify what actually happened. Most of what we know is pieced together from various conflicting sources (some of which are self-contradictory) and spotty news coverage. Added to this the fact that the actual site was demolished several weeks after the siege ended, along with lots of missing evidence (i.e. part of the front door dissapeared, quite a difficult thing to lose as it was, well, a large solid steel door). I say let the controversy stand, take out anything you know is blatantly wrong or tone down inflamatory statements (i.e. there were no "reinforced bunkers," and the ATF did not have a "military assault force"), and let people be intelligent humans and figure out who they believe. After all, that's what this comes down to: who do you believe, and why? Ehwhatsthatyousay 02:39, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Reference #9 on the page is listed as:
^ a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t {{{author}}}, A fire that won't die, [[{{{publisher}}}]], Sept. 20, 1999..
I don't know what this might be referring to, but a lot of the facts on the page rely on it. -- Richrobison 16:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Is this infobox appropriate for this article? I know they were criticized for using military tactics and weaponry but the FBI & ATF are law enforcement organizations who had legal warrants, this wasn't a military operation. -- D. Monack | talk 19:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
The use of DOD assets seems irrelevant. To illustrate, the shootdown of KAL Flight 007, for example, used Soviet state Ministry of Defence assets and personnel, but no conflict infobox is present on that article, or for Iran Air Flight 655, which used US DOD assets and personnel in its "organization, planning, and execution." Likewise, no conflict infobox is present there. If we want to get technical, DOD assets are used every time the police use GPS to track down suspects. Clearly different or at least additional factors are needed to warrant the use of the infobox. As it stands, the inclusion of women and children as combatants in the infobox seems particularly cynical and non-neutral- how can they be considered "Strength" of "Combatants"?
publication Parameters in Autumn 1997. Basically, ATF lied about Koresh operating a meth lab in order to get military assets--including training by Special Forces and national guard helicopters--for the raid. (If they lied about that, what does that say for their credibility on other subjects?) The War on Drugs allows an exemption to the Posse Commitatus Act prohibition on the use of the military in civilian law enforcement (as does, apparently, the War on Terror). Abuse of this system in not good. Naaman Brown 21:15, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
NEED CONFLICT INCIDENT BOX I like the box idea, but not much of the lingo. (FYI "Waco Battle" is not a phrase I've heard before, and I wrote a book on the topic I think it's Original research). It's possible to create a new box - See WP:Infobox for details of how and Wiki process. It could be called something like "Conflict Incident" which would work for a lot of situations of conflict between groups (Valentine Day Massacre, Haymarket Riot) and between groups and governments (Waco Siege, Chicago Democratic Convention 1968). Here's the categories, to be set up in a similar box to current one. What do you think? If someone knows how to / wants to create box, go for it. Otherwise I'll give it a try next week...
Carol Moore 01:36, 17 November 2007 (UTC) User:Carolmooredc User talk:Carolmooredc
I am going to remove the infobox if no one provides a sound objection soon. The incident was not a military conflict, and the treatment of it as such by the infobox is misleading and smacks of bias. I personally find it vulgar that this or any historical conflict is treated as a competition, complete with baseball card style stats. 67.168.27.245 ( talk) 22:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)PBentley
South Park did an entire episode spoof on this. Add it.
-G —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.117.158.83 ( talk) 04:58, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
i just have one comment to make about the 'final assault' section. it has a sentence that says some of the people went into the underground bunker. i don't believe that is accurate. i don't have my books anymore about the branch davidians (students of the seven seal). i do know that from private conversations with clive doyle he has stated that no one was able to get to the underground bunkers because the tanks had crushed the walls and there was too much debris for them to access the bunkers to escape the fire. that is why they found several bodies near the door. they could not get into the bunker. vlwarren nov.20,2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.252.14.141 ( talk) 16:15, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
In the chronology section, every quotation of the surveillance tapes that has Davidians talking about or alledgedly referring to them spreading incindiaries, needs specification or source. What's the point in stating these unconfirmed quotations if there is no ground for them? It creates bias in the section, leading readers to the conclusion that the Davidians burnt up their own homes or contributed to it. There is no solid ground for that conclusion. 91.177.233.39 ( talk) 18:44, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Image:Waco2.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 05:39, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Image:Waco4.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 05:40, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
'"His conversations, dense with biblical imagery, alienated the federal negotiators who treated the situation as a hostage crisis."
The mental image of 25 FBI hostage negotiators describing their feelings of alienation is hilarious.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.28.228.168 ( talk • contribs) 08:59, 24 December 2007
This is an
archive of past discussions for the period January 2007 to December 2007. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
South Park did an entire episode spoof on this. Add it.
-G —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.117.158.83 ( talk) 04:58, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
'"His conversations, dense with biblical imagery, alienated the federal negotiators who treated the situation as a hostage crisis."
The mental image of 25 FBI hostage negotiators describing their feelings of alienation is hilarious.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.28.228.168 ( talk • contribs) 08:59, 24 December 2007
I'd like to propose this infobox be changed or removed. A military conflict infobox seems very out of place to me. This was fundamentally a law enforcement action that went terribly wrong, not a military conflict or "battle." The goal of law enforcement in any action, whether making a traffic stop or sending in a SWAT team, is to enforce laws while reducing the risk of loss of life -- whether that of the police or those they're arresting. I wager that most law enforcement officers would be aghast at being called a combatant and I seriously doubt the FBI would call this a "decisive victory." At best, it was a phyrric victory. croll 14:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Rick —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.251.13.53 ( talk) 19:19, 11 February 2007 (UTC).
This article is clearly broken and it cannot be asserted that it maintains an unbiased point of view. I do not have an opinion as to who was to "blame" for the outcome of the Waco Siege. Howevever, it appears that although most of the statements made in this article are presented with a neutral point of view, the preponderance of the information and citations presented tends to favour the Branch Davidians. I am familiar with the reporting and the literature related to the siege, and suffice it to say, the evidence is inconclusive as to several of the key incidents involved.
In short, it is obvious that there has been a significant amount of cherry-picking of articles/sources favourable to the Branch Davidians, such that it does not provide a clear picture as to the extent of the controversy surrounding the events of the siege. I therefore don't think its useful to argue about specific statements made in this article. This article as a whole holds that there was some sort of conspiracy by the authorities against the Branch Davidians, when in fact the evidence is, again, inconclusive. -- Lonesome road 15:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the editors speaking on the NPOV violations here and did some minor cleaning up. First, I Deleted the time magazine cover with Koresh's laughing face superimposed over a fiery background. That can be considered propaganda to make Koresh appear to be something along the lines of a madman. We're not here to judge, but to enter factual information. Any picture here should be a photo of the seige itself. Second, I don't know who's idea it was to give this an info box stating this was a military conflict, with the FBI having a "decisive victory", but it's completely inappropriate. Removed the military conflict references. Any other good ideas to get this article into the realm of total neutrality, I'm all for it. Chairman Sharif 23:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
When I came to this article I found a mess. It was incoherent, lacked narrative, was badly written and full of weasel words.
I have stripped out a lot of the cruft (including the wholly irrelevant "Culturual references" section, Wikipedia is not a collection of indiscriminate facts), rewritten some parts, and moved others to more logical sections.
Hopefully the result is an article with a logical flow and structure, better writing, and minus a lot of the anti-government bias that was present.
I have also removed the NPOV dispute and unreferenced tags. If someone feels there still are NPOV state precisely what they are below before re-adding the tag. Dan100 ( Talk) 18:40, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Most of the material supplied by them has been proven completely false through the trials and congressional hearings. I'd be very leary of using anything they have to say, as some evidence suggests they were "in bed with the feds". As a matter of fact, it looks like almost the entire first couple paragraphs are filled with about 5% fact, 90% faction, 5% exaggeration.. Ernham 01:15, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I conducted a references re-write.
I removed the following under the terms of Wikipedia:Verifiability as it is unsourced and I dispute the veracity of the claims. It can be restored with a suitable reference is provided.
Several mothers sent their children out of the complex following promises by the FBI that they would be placed with family members. Unrelated senior citizens who had gone with the children were arrested and the children were taken into state custody and then placed in a religious children's home.
The mothers of these children voiced concern about them and the treatment they were receiving. In reply they received a video sent by the negotiators. The mothers were disturbed that their children were being fed things forbidden by their religious diet and (in their view harmfully) were being allowed to run wild with minimal supervision while watching television. This violation of the promises destroyed any possibility of further trust of the FBI, making the negotiators' job all but impossible.
On 6 March (day 7) Schneider mentions during recorded negotiations that he thinks the FBI will try to burn the building to destroy the evidence of exactly what happened during the initial raid.
It's clear that thier mothers thought they would have input on where the children went because they placed notes in the childrens pockets instructing to turn them over to the care of relatives. "Ashes of Waco p.227" Same source, same page documents the concerns resulting from videos the FBI sent in. The children were turned over to TDCPS who in turn place 20 of the children in a Methodist group home http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/waco311.html
Elderly people who left were arrested on conspiracy to commit murder charges and paraded out for the press cameras. "For example, two elderly women, Margaret Lawson and Catherine Mattson, were released from the compound on March 2, 1993. The next day, the United States Attorney's Office (after consulting with at least one FBI supervisor), charged the two women in a criminal complaint with conspiracy to commit murder." http://www.usdoj.gov/05publications/waco/wacofourteen.html
The Schneider "burn the evidence" reference is cited here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/timeline.html
I believe these sources should resolve your dispute. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.251.12.226 ( talk) 13:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC).
I trimmed this section and made reference to the use of loud noise as part of the generally more aggressive techniques adopted later in the seige. Under the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view policy no one element should be given undue prominence over and above others. The use of loud sound is not particularly unusual being a common siege tactic, and does not warrant a unique section (a better idea would be to write an article on the subject, and then link to it).
If you disagree with changes I have made, you need to make verifiable statements using sources that you feel support your point of view (remember the neutral point of view aims to present all sides fairly). You cannot remove material that is referenced, instead, if you feel the statements are incorrect, you need to provide sources that present the alternate point of view.
Thanks for reading, Dan100 ( Talk) 10:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
As per discussions above, the military conflict infobox was removed as it was irrelevant and the fields have no bearing on a law enforcement incident. Devious Viper 19:35, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't disagree with some of that, but we have to save our POV for a pro/anti website - this is an encyclopaedia. I agree that the respective federal agencies were gung ho, that there was almost definitely a series of illegal actions with regard to Posse Commitatus, that Delta were probably shooting Davidians trying to escape from the rear of the compound, that a shaped charge was used on top of the "bunker" etc etc etc. BUT here we can only put the "facts" that are verifiable - not necessarily the "truth". And I still say that the mil info box is misleading, inaccurate, and an insult to the victims of the whole sorry affair Viper 19:08, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Introduction says that 81 people died in the fire; further down the article it says 74. Which is correct? Also, counting "2 unborn children" as people is definitely not NPOV. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.83.156.199 ( talk) 16:46, 20 February 2007 (UTC).
As mentioned on the "Category:Sieges involving the United States" talk page, I intend to remove the Waco Siege from that list unless I hear otherwise by April 10.
I offer two main reasons.
1) It is of a different sort from all the other (proper) sieges on this page.
2) The facts even as disputed on this page do not fit Wikipedia's definition of "siege" ("a military blockade of a city or fortress"). If every law-enforcement standoff qualifies as a "siege," then there will be thousands of entries on this page -- they happen literally every day all over the United States. Jcfreed 09:56, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I would have to agree with Yaf here. When culturally referenced as a "siege", this event should be considered as such, even though the Wiki definition varies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thewindmaster ( talk • contribs) 16:46, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
No mention of the FACT that the US Military had members of the Combat Applications Group present at Waco? There is verifiable evidence of this FACT and bureaucrats have at various times admitted and denied this. Needs to be included. Ikilled007 05:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't know enough about this topic to comment on whether it is factually accurate, but I do know that it is filled with POV against the ATF/FBI, particularly through the use of weasel words. The extent of the bias makes it irritating to read. The entire article needs a rewrite. Ultiam 03:30, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree, this article is full of weasel words directed against the ATF/FBI but I also don't know enough about this issue. -- Dcsmith 14:32, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
The weasel words are directed against the branch davidians as well. For example, in the the minute by minute transcripts, wherever a davidian says something about gasoline or starting a fire, there is no cite as to where this came from, while there are citations for everything else. 139.182.146.55 21:05, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
In fact, there is NOT ONE source provided for the entire "Investigation" section of the article. This section of the article in particular makes it's points based entirely on opinion, assumption, and unsourced "facts". 71.196.201.195 02:21, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
In section 7.1 "Aftermath - Trial", someone has typed (and I quote) "BARNEY KILLED UR MOM IN WACO HE THROUGH FIREY SHIT AT UR DOG". Owing to the sensitivity of the subject matter, the ongoing issue with regards to NPOV and weasel words, and the potential for spam and vandalism, this page should be semi- or even fully-protected as soon as the spam has been removed. Opinions? 86.143.162.224 16:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
EDIT: I have now removed the offending phrase, but please offer your opinions on write-protecting this page 86.143.162.224 16:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
EDIT: In the 'The Raid' section, the ATF is described as having a "search and fuck warrant." This further substantiates the above point.
I've made some additions here, but this article is still of poor quality, and is now overlong. Rather than presenting an evenhanded treatment of the controversy, it reads, as others have noted, like a point/counterpoint of various POVs, some of which are extreme, unsubstantiated, and/or of questionable relevance. To my mind, the main issues that make the events at Waco important and interesting more than a decade after they occurred are lost in the bickering. Did ATF display a serious lack of judgment in serving its warrant when its plan was so well known that reporters arrived on the scene before the agents did? In view of the perhaps unsurprising outcome, should FBI have accumulated 2 tanks, 10 Bradley fighting vehicles, humvees, nightstalker aircraft, helicopters, and the assistance of the army, air force, and two state national guards--even if so doing was technically within the bounds of the law? I can't say that these questions are evident from what we have here.
I would agree with Ultiam that this article needs a total rewrite. A rewrite, though, will involve the deletion of substantial portions of what is already here. Before that process begins, let's hear from some of the other contributors.
Puzurinsusinak 17:30, 27 May 2007 (UTC)Puzurinsusinak
Yes, I'll agree that there's a lot of "battleing POV's" as it were, but that's the nature of the beast here. You have on one side, dozens of federal agents who might be subject to criminal charges if the other side is right. On the "other side," the branch Davidians, you have most of the major actors dead (justifiably or at their own hand, according to the ATF/FBI). Thus, the situation itself lends itself away from being able to objectively verify what actually happened. Most of what we know is pieced together from various conflicting sources (some of which are self-contradictory) and spotty news coverage. Added to this the fact that the actual site was demolished several weeks after the siege ended, along with lots of missing evidence (i.e. part of the front door dissapeared, quite a difficult thing to lose as it was, well, a large solid steel door). I say let the controversy stand, take out anything you know is blatantly wrong or tone down inflamatory statements (i.e. there were no "reinforced bunkers," and the ATF did not have a "military assault force"), and let people be intelligent humans and figure out who they believe. After all, that's what this comes down to: who do you believe, and why? Ehwhatsthatyousay 02:39, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Reference #9 on the page is listed as:
^ a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t {{{author}}}, A fire that won't die, [[{{{publisher}}}]], Sept. 20, 1999..
I don't know what this might be referring to, but a lot of the facts on the page rely on it. -- Richrobison 16:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Is this infobox appropriate for this article? I know they were criticized for using military tactics and weaponry but the FBI & ATF are law enforcement organizations who had legal warrants, this wasn't a military operation. -- D. Monack | talk 19:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
The use of DOD assets seems irrelevant. To illustrate, the shootdown of KAL Flight 007, for example, used Soviet state Ministry of Defence assets and personnel, but no conflict infobox is present on that article, or for Iran Air Flight 655, which used US DOD assets and personnel in its "organization, planning, and execution." Likewise, no conflict infobox is present there. If we want to get technical, DOD assets are used every time the police use GPS to track down suspects. Clearly different or at least additional factors are needed to warrant the use of the infobox. As it stands, the inclusion of women and children as combatants in the infobox seems particularly cynical and non-neutral- how can they be considered "Strength" of "Combatants"?
publication Parameters in Autumn 1997. Basically, ATF lied about Koresh operating a meth lab in order to get military assets--including training by Special Forces and national guard helicopters--for the raid. (If they lied about that, what does that say for their credibility on other subjects?) The War on Drugs allows an exemption to the Posse Commitatus Act prohibition on the use of the military in civilian law enforcement (as does, apparently, the War on Terror). Abuse of this system in not good. Naaman Brown 21:15, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
NEED CONFLICT INCIDENT BOX I like the box idea, but not much of the lingo. (FYI "Waco Battle" is not a phrase I've heard before, and I wrote a book on the topic I think it's Original research). It's possible to create a new box - See WP:Infobox for details of how and Wiki process. It could be called something like "Conflict Incident" which would work for a lot of situations of conflict between groups (Valentine Day Massacre, Haymarket Riot) and between groups and governments (Waco Siege, Chicago Democratic Convention 1968). Here's the categories, to be set up in a similar box to current one. What do you think? If someone knows how to / wants to create box, go for it. Otherwise I'll give it a try next week...
Carol Moore 01:36, 17 November 2007 (UTC) User:Carolmooredc User talk:Carolmooredc
I am going to remove the infobox if no one provides a sound objection soon. The incident was not a military conflict, and the treatment of it as such by the infobox is misleading and smacks of bias. I personally find it vulgar that this or any historical conflict is treated as a competition, complete with baseball card style stats. 67.168.27.245 ( talk) 22:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)PBentley
South Park did an entire episode spoof on this. Add it.
-G —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.117.158.83 ( talk) 04:58, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
i just have one comment to make about the 'final assault' section. it has a sentence that says some of the people went into the underground bunker. i don't believe that is accurate. i don't have my books anymore about the branch davidians (students of the seven seal). i do know that from private conversations with clive doyle he has stated that no one was able to get to the underground bunkers because the tanks had crushed the walls and there was too much debris for them to access the bunkers to escape the fire. that is why they found several bodies near the door. they could not get into the bunker. vlwarren nov.20,2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.252.14.141 ( talk) 16:15, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
In the chronology section, every quotation of the surveillance tapes that has Davidians talking about or alledgedly referring to them spreading incindiaries, needs specification or source. What's the point in stating these unconfirmed quotations if there is no ground for them? It creates bias in the section, leading readers to the conclusion that the Davidians burnt up their own homes or contributed to it. There is no solid ground for that conclusion. 91.177.233.39 ( talk) 18:44, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Image:Waco2.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 05:39, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Image:Waco4.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 05:40, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
'"His conversations, dense with biblical imagery, alienated the federal negotiators who treated the situation as a hostage crisis."
The mental image of 25 FBI hostage negotiators describing their feelings of alienation is hilarious.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.28.228.168 ( talk • contribs) 08:59, 24 December 2007