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I came here looking for what Waco was and why and how and all that info, and I can barely get past the first few paragraphs without being confused. why did the fbi want to raid waco? was it a cult? what were they accused of? why were the police so heavy handed? what did the people at waco do? I feel like this is VERY US-centric and that you need to know stuff beforehand before reading the article, which is very unencyclopedic if you ask me 81.149.170.242 ( talk) 15:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I highly doubt the police had 25 casualties against 1 machine gun. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.185.41.21 ( talk) 03:29, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
This is a note to inform all interested watchers of this article that Wikisource has chosen the Branch Davidians and Waco Siege as their Collaboration of the Week.
This means that we are spending this week collecting, copying and formatting Public Domain documents related to the church and its 1993 siege. This includes speeches by David Koresh, Federal documents in the aftermath of the siege, the charges against Lon Horiuchi and the surviving church members, and early church documents whose copyright have expired.
We would encourage you all to come help us, if you have any questions, feel free to leave a question on my talk page - either on Wikisource or Wikipedia!
I hope to see some of you there, helping us document the primary sources for future research and historical analysis!
Sherurcij ( Speaker for the Dead) 21:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
There is no reference that the this was started under Bush seniors presidency and concluded under the Clinton administration. There is no mention of Hillary's possible influence and also Vince Foster close connections to Hillary and Waco. As I understand there were also FBI power struggles going on because of the switch in administration. All these facts might help further explain the disastrous handling of this situation, and the ongoing cover-up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.211.130 ( talk) 21:08, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
References I found to "Davidian Branch Compound", "Mt. Carmel's compound" and similar wordings of "compound": Time Magazine, Tribune-Herald Although many followers have fled, Howell remains with about 75 faithful in a compound they built to await the end of the world. Former cult members and authorities say it is heavily armed. Guards reportedly walked the grounds at night. Perched above the compound is a tower with lookout windows facing all directions, touristic website for the compound (photos of underground tunnels and bunker), Frontline report, US Department of Justice Evaluation of the Handling of the Branch Davidian Stand-off in Waco, Texas, cnn.com, transcripts of Terry Nichols trial at cnn.com.
For all this I'm re-adding "compound" to the article, which was replaced by "complex" and "building", which look like a POV wording for people believing that it was a deliberate massacre. Like here [1] where they call it "village complex" when talking about fleeing mother and children, even altought the header calls it compound. As an aside it's also used on newspapers, like on St Louis Dispath [2] [3], and the fire investigation [4], and used interchangeably on some places.
To sum it up, I infer from my searches that "compound" is a WP:NPOV description of the place and ws used on the trial to describe it, while "complex" appears to have a POV bias for its use on POV websites, and "building" is probably plain incorrect, so I'll add it back in short time. I'll wait a pair of days for comments from other editors -- Enric Naval ( talk) 15:44, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
P.D.D.D.: As for military significance, Koresh believed that he was related to Cyrus_the_Great named korush or similar, who was a conqueror king (or that he was Cyrus himself, can't bother to find the source right now), and the day that the AFT presented the search warrant the cult members were saying the "the assyrians are coming" [10], the assyrians had a empire on persa empire territory before it existed, and it's probably also some reference to the bible. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 13:20, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
P.D.D.D.D.: From indictement [12], statements supporting that the Waco buildings had militar significance
“ | 5. It was a part of the conspiracy that Vernon K. Howell, also known as David Koresh, would and did advocate and encourage an armed confrontation, which he described as a "war," between his followers and representatives of the United States government. Vernon K. Howell, also known as David Koresh, originally predicted that this "war" would occur in the Nation of Israel and later changed the location to Mt. Carmel Compound, near Waco, Texas. | ” |
THE COURT: Mrs. Flowers, would you publish the
verdict, please, and make sure your mike is working? MRS. FLOWERS: Yes, sir. Is it working? "We, the Jury, unanimously find each of the following Defendants guilty or not guilty of the offense of Conspiracy to Murder Federal Officers, as alleged in Count One of the Indictment: "Brad Eugene Branch, not guilty. "Kevin A. Whitecliff, not guilty. "Clive J. Doyle, not guilty. "Jaime Castillo, not quilty. "Livingston Fagan, not guilty. "Paul Gordon Fatta, not guilty. "Woodrow Kendrick, not guilty. "Norman Washington Allison, not guilty. "Graeme Leonard Craddock, not guilty. "Renos Avraam, not guilty. "Ruth Ottman Riddle, not guilty. "Question 2. Wer the Jury, unanimously find each of the following Defendants guilty or not guilty of the offense of Aiding and Abetting Unknown Principals and Each Other in the Murder of Federal Officers, as alleged in Count Two of the Indictment: "Brad Eugene Branch, not guilty. "Kevin A. Whitecliff, not guilty. "Clive J..Doyle, not guilty. "Jaime Castillo, not guilty.' "Livingston Fagan, not guilty. "Paul Gordon Fatta, not guilty. "Woodrow Kendrick, @ot guilty. "Norman Washington Allison, not guilty. "Graeme Leonard Craddock, not guilty. "Renos Avraam, not guilty. "Ruth Ottman Riddle, not guilty. "For each of the Defendants, if any, that you found not guilty in Question 2, or for each of the Defendants, if any, you were unable to reach a verdict in Question 2, answer this question. For each of the Defendants, if any, that you found guilty in Question 2, do not answer this question with regard to that Defendant.� "Question 3. We, the Jury, unanimously find each of the following Defendants guilty or not guilty of the offense of Aiding and Abetting Unknown Principals and Each Other in the lesser included offense of Volunt@ Manalaughter of Federal officers, as described in the instructions: "Brad Eugene Branch, guilty. "Kevin A. Whitecliff, guilty. "Clive J. Doyle, not guilty. "Jaime Castillo, guilty. "Livingston Fagan, guilty. "Paul Gordon Fatta, not guilty. "Woodrow Kendrickt not guilty. "Norman Washington Allison, not guilty. "Graeme Leonard Craddock, not guilty. "Renos Avraam, guilty. "Ruth Ottman Riddle, not guilty.
On February 28, the day of the raid, when the ATF says that they were only going to present a search and arrest warrant, they though that they would encounter no resistance and weren't prepared for a fight. Some of the agents thought that there would be problems and asked to be allowed to bring their rifles, and their request was denied. The ATF was not preparing an attack, so saying that it attacked the complex is an accuracy. See [22]. It was also a raid too, not an assault. I changed the infobox to say "shoout". The attack at April 19, however, does qualify as a full assault with intention of getting control of the buildings with force. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 22:00, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Reference Davidian Criminal Trial Transcripts 2054-2055
Richardson - Cross (Mr. Rentz) 2054-2055 25 Q When you left the staging area, did you by chance put your 1 blood type on your arm? 2 A No, sir, not on the arm. 3 Q Where did you put it? 4 A The blood type was -- was placed on the side of the neck. 5 Q Why did you do that? 6 A I didn't place it on there, that's what was some -- one of 7 the other agents came by and he placed it on the side of the 8 neck. 9 Q Why did you do it, do you know? 10 A I assumed that in case there was any injury or anything, 11 that you would be able to know what the person's blood type was. 12 Q Had you ever done that on a raid before? 13 A No, sir. 14 Q So, you anticipated possibly or somebody anticipated the 15 need for knowing your blood type, then? 16 A Someone apparently did, sir. 17 Q Okay. 18 MR. RENTZ: No further questions.
99.148.166.41 (talk) 01:28, 1 April 2008 (UTC)rick
Similarly, the September 17, 1993 memorandum on "ATF Statements and Issues concerning ATF Knowledge of the Loss of the Element of Surprise," prepared for the Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Enforcement contains this summary: March 1, 1993 Troy WAR Interview ATF initiates a shooting review. David Troy and Bill Wood interview Rodriguez and Mastin (3/1), Chojnacki (3/3), Cavanaugh (3/3), Sarabyn (3/2). Troy tells Review they immediately determined that these stories did not add up. They communicated information to both Hartnett and Conroy on the day or day after each interview. Conroy gave Troy's handwritten notes to Hartnett. (Note -- Johnston at this point advised Hartnett to stop the ATF Shooting review because ATF was creating Brady Material. Because Chojnacki had not yet been interviewed, Johnston authorized that interview but no notes were created.)
Now compare this to the Treasury Review version of why the shooting review was halted
After the interviews, the shooting review team was concerned because Sarabyn's urgency and his statements at the staging area about Koresh's knowledge that ATF and the National Guard were coming were inconsistent with his lack of any recollection that Rodriguez had told him that Koresh had been tipped about the raid. As a result, the team was prepared to conduct additional interviews. However, after being told by Hartnett that the local U.S. Attorney's office had directed ATF to stop the shooting review because it was needlessly duplicating the pending leak and murder investigations, the team concluded its efforts.
This is why this subject is a bear trap. It's why I maintain the sources you are using are POV. Someone has "sanitized" the information for the official report. "Brady Material" if you don't know is exculpatory material that the prosecution discovers during an investigation and must disclose to the defense. 76.203.230.246 ( talk) 11:36, 2 April 2008 (UTC) Rick
Germane to some of the issues raised anove: Chuck Hustmyre was one of the ATF agents on the raid. Hustmyre's Trojan Horse: Inside the ATF Raid at Waco, Texas, 2003, was posted at the Court TV website. According to Hustmyre, he was armed with an AR15 rifle. Lowell Sprague had an MP5 carbine. David Sullivan had a .308 sniper rifle. Hustmyre did not inventory all the arms of the 75 raiding party, but there were long guns present.
Quote Hustmyre on the meth lab claim:
ATF had managed to persuade the Texas National Guard and the governor that the compound might contain a methamphetamine lab. All the agents knew the lab story was bullshit, but someone at ATF [HQ] decided to spin the tale to the Texas authorities so that we could get access to their equipment and personnel.
Quote Hustmyre on the presence of ATF snipers:
Special Agent David Sullivan started the ATF sniper program just a year before the raid on the Branch Davidian compound. Sullivan, a former Marine infantry officer, sat at a breakfast table in the undercover house across the road from the compound, sipping coffee and firing his .308-caliber scoped rifle at cult gunmen in the upper windows of the compound almost 300 yards away.
Quote Hustmyre on ATF ceasefire:
About 45 minutes into the shootout, the volume of gunfire finally started to slacken. We were running out of ammunition. The Davidians, however, had plenty. Later, the number of rounds stored inside the compound was estimated in the hundreds of thousands.
Naaman Brown ( talk) 01:25, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
"The bunker is later found to have held only the remaining women and children in the compound. They were trapped in the concrete bunker as it filled with CS gas; all were either gassed to death or burned to death." while this is flagged as citation needed, I think it should be removed if not sourced. First, it should easily be verifiable if true. Second, it contradicts the notion that CS gas is generally recognized as non-lethal (see wikipedia entry). Third, it is inflamatory/reflects bias - while it is possible the women and children were burned to death, absent a cause of death determination, claiming they were "gassed to death" is not only scaremongering, but seems biased against federal agents. It could have a short statement that the gas may have contributed to an inability to exit or such, but again, absent a source, this speculation does nothing good for this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.184.99.4 ( talk • contribs) 18:34, 17 April 2008
A Special Forces Rapid Support Unit, assigned to Operation Alliance, trained ATF on 25-27 February 1993, in company-level tactical C2, Medical Evacuation training, IV ABC's,[106] and assistance with Range and MOUT sites.[107] According to military documents and military witnesses who appeared before the subcommittees, no non-Mission Essential Task List (wartime tasks) training, involvement in actual planning occurred.[108] House of Representatives report. Pre-raid military assistance requested by ATF and assistance actually received.
That a "shape charge" may have been placed on the concrete roof of the "bunker" at the bottom of the tower, and that a bedroll found in the "bunker," [28] (page 12)
Here you read this statement:
CS gas is generally recognized as non-lethal (see wikipedia entry)
but if you go to the Wikipedia CS gas entry you find this:
Although described as a non-lethal weapon for crowd control, many studies
have raised doubts about this classification. As well as creating severe
pulmonary damage, CS can also significantly damage the heart and liver.(AMA)
On September 28, 2000, Prof. Dr. Uwe Heinrich released a study commissioned
by John C. Danforth, of 'The Office of Special Counsel', to investigate the
use of CS by the FBI at the Branch Davidians' Mount Carmel compound. He
concluded that the lethality of CS used would have been determined mainly
by two factors: whether gas masks were used and whether the occupants were
trapped in a room. He suggests that if no gas masks were used and the
occupants were trapped, then, "...there is a distinct possibility that this
kind of CS exposure can significantly contribute to or even cause lethal
effects."(Heinrich)
Many reports have associated CS exposure with miscarriages.(AMA) This is
consistent with its reported clastogenic effect (abnormal chromosome change)
on mammalian cells.
When CS is metabolized, cyanide can be detected in human tissue.(AMA)
According to the United States Army Center for Health Promotion and
Preventive Medicine, CS emits "very toxic fumes" when heated to
decomposition, and at specified concentrations CS gas is an immediate
danger to life and health. They also state that those exposed to CS gas
should seek medical attention immediately.(USArmy)
. . . . .
Use of CS in war is prohibited under the terms of the 1997 Chemical
Weapons Convention, signed by most nations in 1993 with all but five
other nations signing between the years of 1994 through 1997.
-----------------------------
Heinrich, U. "Possible lethal effects of CS tear gas on Branch Davidians
during the FBI raid on the Mount Carmel compound near Waco, Texas."
www.veritagiustizia.it. September 2000.
Williams, Kenneth E. "Detailed Facts About Tear Agent O-Chlorobenzylidene
Malononitrile (CS)." U.S. Army Center for Health Promotion and Preventive
Medicine.
Howard Hu, MD, MPH; Jonathan Fine, MD; Paul Epstein, MD, MPH; Karl Kelsey,
MD, MOH; Preston Reynolds, MD, PhD; Bailus Walker, PhD, MPH. "Tear Gas:
Harassing Agent or Toxic Chemical Weapon?" Journal of the American Medical
Association. August 4, 1989. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
67.235.102.180 (
talk)
19:40, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
I reverted this edit [33] adding "war on waco" as a name to refer to Waco Siege. I looked up "war in waco" [34]. Altough google claims 11200 results, if you try to reach the end of the list it stops at the third page (23 results that are not repetitions). I could only find one real usage of the term on an editorial here. There was also a reference on a opinion column on New York Times that is not using it a noun [35], as well as several references to completely unrelated events that also get called "war in waco", like a judicial dispute [36] a Scrabble competition [37], a dispute about where to diposit cow manure [38], a war on gas prizes on Waco [39], etc. There is nothing indicating a regular use of that term to refer to Waco Siege. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 03:50, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
According to the late comedian Bill Hicks, he saw videos of tanks leveling the compound and/or setting the place on fire, on purpose. This was apparently on "public access" TV and not on any main network. So: if such a video exists, is it perhaps on the interweb somewhere? I can't even find anything about a RUMOUR that such tapes exist. So is it an uber conspiracy or do I just suck at searching Google? 74.14.122.167 ( talk) 12:34, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:FBIphoto04-19-93.JPG
What's the charge? What actually provoked the ATFs or the FBI to produce the warrant and for what cause?
I'm having difficulty of sifting through with this heavy texts.
Could do with {{ cleanup}}.
88.105.32.45 ( talk) 16:54, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I put in Category: Police brutality because Category: Religiously motivated violence in the United States is in there, and I'm assuming they were NOT talking about mainstream Christianity attacking a small dissident sect. In fact even that is up for interpretative opinion, one way or the other. Since neither accusation has a reliable source in the article I'd say both should be gone until such time. Carol Moore 17:57, 14 October 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc
This entry also starts off with an upgrade to the "disputed facts" warning from the Branch Davidian page, since this article inherits the most contentious issues from that page. The transferred content is rife with inaccuracies and riddled by bias. Until the quality of this article is substantially improved, the warning should remain.-- WacoKid 03:48, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. The article, as is, is crap. - 98.204.38.204 ( talk) 22:17, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Concerning the prelude to the 28 Feb 1993 Raid, several significant facts which can be traced to multiple sources get overlooked in most recaps of this subject:
Sources I have used include published accounts by David Thibodeau who lived in Mt. Carmel Center and by Chuck Hustmyre one of the ATF raid party, among many others. Naaman Brown ( talk) 01:03, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
I dispute this statement:
However, the raid was moved up a day in response to the Waco Tribune-Herald "Sinful Messiah" article (which the ATF had tried to prevent from being published).
One, the raid was moved to 28 Feb 1993 because the plain text of the search warrant said it expired 28 Feb 1993 10:00pm. Two, the Waco Herald Tribune had held off publishing "Sinful Messiah" at the request of the ATF for a month. When the Herald Tribune informed ATF they were going to start publishing the series that weekend, the ATF did not request an extension of the delay or raise an objection to the publication. Naaman Brown ( talk) 02:30, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
I have questions about this statement:
The children had been physically and sexually abused long before the standoff
Janet Reno herself admitted that there was no evidence the children had been physically or sexually abused during the standoff and that the intelligence such had happened during the standoff was false. Janet Reno claimed she had been told that babies were being beaten, that Koresh was slapping babies around, and she later admitted that was not true.
Allegations of physical abuse of the children before the standoff came largely from dissident members who left the group in 1989 and moved to Australia, testifying to what they believed was happening a continent away in 1992. Phil Penningroth who wrote the "In the Line of Duty: Ambush at Waco" docu-drama screenplay found the dissident members to be unreliable sources of information: they contradicted each others' stories. The child abuse allegation was that the children were beaten black and blue with wooden paddles. The FBI and US Congressmen who were approached with those original allegations told the dissident members that the federal government had no jurisdiction over spanking children. Three investigations by Texas authorities with jurisdiction over child abuse found no evidence of such beatings, although they were uneasy with the Davidian's beliefs and lifestyle.
Previous leaders of the Branch Davidian (George Roden and before him his mother Bishop Lois Roden who tutored Koresh) openly advocated polygamy. Koresh was a polygamist and believed that any woman who had her menses was eligible for "marriage": his one legal wife was Rachel Jones married at fourteen with her parents' approval. As to the sexual abuse claim, McClennan County Sheriff Harwell pointed out that until one of Koresh's "brides" or their parent or guardian filed a formal complaint with the proper authorities, it had to be treated as consensual sex (Harwell considered it was tantamount to statutory rape even if no complaints were filed but there was nothing he could do legally). Richard Jewell did use the Michigan court system to get custody of his daughter Keri from his wife Sheri and Koresh.
The ATF had no jurisdiction over child discipline, polygamy or consensual sex even if it rose to the level of statutory rape. Children were physically disciplined and Koresh was a polygamist with multiple "wives" from fourteen to fifty-four years of age, but the image of Koresh torturing and raping children is as false and inflamatory as the claim he was running a meth lab. Naaman Brown ( talk) 16:42, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
The prelude page refers to "8,000" rounds of ammunition. This is almost certainly too low a figure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikipeaches ( talk • contribs) 13:10, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
The first four ATF agents interviewed by the Texas Rangers (before the Rangers were ordered to halt the interviews because they were producing exculpatory evidence that could aid the defense at trial) told the Rangers that they believed that the first shots fired were the dog team neutralizing the Davidians' dogs: five dogs inside a kennel were shot to death. Davidian Renos Lenny Avraam has stated the first shots he heard were from the direction of the dog kennel. The raid rehearsal at Ft. Hood included "neutralizing" the dogs. Personnel were added to the raid team after the training at Ft. Hood who apparently were not aware of the dog team plans. As in the Ruby Ridge incident, there is evidence that the first shot could have been a shot by law enforcement at a dog on the subject's property, prompting other agents to "return" fire at the suspects. Naaman Brown ( talk) 03:33, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
This cite to have any validity needs pages listed. It is nearly 1000 pages long (946) and alot of it is hand written which means ctrl+f cannot be used to find what it is supposed to be confirming. There is no way a resonable person could take the time to read 1000 pages of information to confirm somthing and therefore it is almost worthless to as a citation. 69.123.106.132 ( talk) 04:15, 19 January 2009 (UTC) 69.123.106.132
“ | The perpetrators of the Columbine high school massacre were inspired by the Waco Siege. [41] | ” |
There was a link removed from the article with the justification that google might not authorize it. I don't understand how that can be a problem. We are dealing with the passing of a public link. I believe it is of the interest of google.video that the google is passed. There is nothing to suggest otherwise, so there is no basis for this decision. I understand the need to be cautious about this sort of things, but in this case I don't even see a suspicion. Also, we have to understand what we lose by not putting up this recognized useful information. We have to be cautious on both sides of the issue. Maziotis ( talk) 13:43, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
The link would not be embedded in this website, so we would be taking a link to their website. There is even a “share” button on their page, so they want their link to be shared. This is absurd. There is simply no basis whatsoever to suggest that we are infringing on google rights, nor that we are even going against its “wishes”…
Ask yourselves if the issue here is really copyrights. wikipedia:iar wikipedia:DICK Maziotis ( talk) 13:48, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Looking at the official website of the Rules of engagement video, they are selling DVD and tape versions, and they even have a movie trailer. It's obvious that they are comercializing the video, and they don't have any link to that google video. Without further proof, it appears that the google video is actually a copyright infringement, and that it's not sanctioned by the copyright holders (if would be different if they were one of those freedom-of-information lovers, who put a low-res online version of their whole work, and then they ask people to buy commercial copies to support them, but this does not appear to be the case). -- Enric Naval ( talk) 22:41, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Woah!This whole article appears to have been written by cultists. I think people who aren't need to have a look into this. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
213.86.243.150 (
talk)
13:16, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
I feel that the video game references trivialize a very tragic event. We are dealing with the deaths of federal agents and civilians, issues of the paramilitarization of law enforcement, overreaching by the War on Drugs, reactions and preparations for Y2K Millinialism by religious sects and the overreaction by the federal government, and the mention of videogames is a travesty.
The 2003 video game Postal 2 features scene of a cult group being surrounded by ATF agents at "the compound". The place of this event is modeled almost exactly as the Mount Carmel Center.
There is a fictionalized account of the incident (taking many liberties with the facts) in John Updike's 1996 novel "In the Beauty of the Lilies."
The 1997 PC game Redneck Rampage features a level which is supposed to be the Mount Carmel Center complete with underground tunnels.It also has an audio of what is supposed to be attorney general Janet Reno saying words to the effect of burn them alive.
The Updike reference repeated points already made in a preceding comment on the Updike novel. Naaman Brown ( talk) 13:57, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
There sure is a lot here--I hope most folks think as I do it was a gov't screw up and cover up. There is no restriction on how many guns (not "weapons" as Wikipedia suggests) may be owned by a citizen of Texas. This is a state thing, anyway, not federal. 150 guns among all those people in the cult doesn't seem excessive--this averages about 2 guns per person; the Texas average is over 3. A package breaking open containing legally bought and shipped guns and black powder does not warrant a warrant. The fact that Koresh explained "automatic fire" accusations by showing his hell fire device explains a lot and shows his cooperation. Beside, fully auto guns are legal in Texas with a federal permit. This whole thing could have been taken care of peacefully with negotiators. There was no call for an armed "raid" at all. It became our own little Jonestown. Shame on the fed's. 24.251.154.69 ( talk) 04:04, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
see the arson report
[42] and the analysis of the arson report by the Deputy Attorney General
[43]. The article misses a lot of evidence. For example, it cites the testimony of one Davidian to a magazine, but it doesn't cite the testimony of four Davidians five Davidians including the one cited in the footnote, but it cites the testimony that one Davidian made years later to a magazine. --
Enric Naval (
talk)
14:26, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
After two years of refusing to deal with this article, I'm ready. This article really is a mess and makes very poor use of some of the best sources. (Including the 1993 Treasury Report which I've just uploaded to wikisource - still have to do appendices.) So here's an outline that better integrates existing material. More subsections probably will be added.
Needless to say this is a lot of work but luckily a lot of info still lingers in my brain from writing my book THE DAVIDIAN MASSACRE 16 years ago. Plus of course I've learned to write much more NPOV in last two years on wikipedia :-) CarolMooreDC ( talk) 13:47, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
If this incident had happened in a country like India, Wikipedia will be quick to point out that this is a terrorist attack by a government agency against identifiable religious groups. BUT since this had happened in the Great White West, no one is calling this a terrorist attack by ATF. This is clearly an indication of bias in western societies and educational system. This is not the only article on this website like this. The US terrorist army attacking a passenger jet( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 ) in Iraq-Iran war also downplayed. Why these events are not act of terrorism?
There has been constant changes to the death toll. Some reports put the number at 74 including two pregnant women, some put it at 76 counting the unborn children as 2 deaths. Other reports have the number of deaths as more than 80, and one report listed in the article puts the death toll at 75. There needs to be a consistent number in the article and a reputable source attached to the number.
There have been various complaints about the use of the current Military info box. I realized we need one for use with articles like those in
Category:Nonwar_armed_confrontations that combine
Template:Infobox Military Conflict,
Template:Infobox civilian attack,
Template:Infobox Historical Event as part of
Category:Law infobox templates. But I haven't figured out how to create the new template page. Before spend time doing so, if someone here's just itching to do it rather like below, do tell and we can discuss. Or tell me if you know someone else who loves doing them.
[REMOVED DRAFT PER BELOW]
Thanks.
CarolMooreDC (
talk)
14:00, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
{{Infobox Law Enforcement Action | Action_name = | Image_Name = | Image_Caption = | Also_known_ as = | Date = | Location = | Coordinates = | Purpose_of_Action = | Agencies_involved = | Target = | Coordinates = | Weapons/equipment = | Result = | Injuries = | Fatalities = | Followup investigations = | Notes = }}
CarolMooreDC ( talk) 23:36, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Some of the text sounds like original research or completely irrelevant to the actual topic of the Siege. For instance, "Although ATF claimed that Koresh stayed inside the compound and could not be served with a warrant, Koresh was regularly seen jogging along the Waco roads and ate at local restaurants on a weekly basis." -- no citation. "the ATF pursued a strongly confrontational approach" "Trading in legal firearms is by no means unusual in many US states. One of the largest sources of funds for the Mormon Church in its early days, for example, came from the Browning family's sales of shotguns and rifles in the Frontier days of the 19th Century, then later machine guns and other arms in the First World War."
This is a bit concerning really. 128.174.161.61 ( talk) 22:04, 24 January 2009 (UTC) 68.231.188.151 ( talk) 17:22, 4 September 2009 (UTC)What is so "concerning"? Mormons (LDS) are a very American faith; we are raised with guns. Guns put food on the table and defended us. David Koresh, although he badly strayed, was in a Mormon splinter cult; so guns were there also. John Browning was a good Mormon; he did his mission work, and when the Gov't. asked him for a new pistol and machine guns, he did his American duty and developed some. LDS is not anti-war and one of the few faiths not anti-gun--it isn't Encouraged to carry a gun for self-defense, but we have nothing written against it if you feel you have a legitimate need. Joseph Smith was not criticised for trying to defend himself in Carthage Jail before his murder. 68.231.188.151 ( talk) 17:16, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
{{
movereq|Waco Siege}}
Waco Massacre → Waco Siege — It should be moved back to "Waco Siege". The sources call it that name in its majority, so it's the proper name per WP:COMMONNAMES. Only a few call it "Waco Massacre". -- Enric Naval ( talk) 14:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Waco Siege is not only a more common name, it is closer to NPOV. Naaman Brown ( talk) 17:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I agree that Waco Siege is both more common and less opinionated. Harksaw ( talk) 18:08, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Comment: I have reverted the move; given the obvious controversy it would generate, such an action should clearly have been discussed first. -- Ckatz chat spy 20:51, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Comment: It was a massacre, but until enough people start calling it a massacre, "siege" will have to do. Apostle12 ( talk) 23:09, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
It Was a Massacre; but to remain objective and unbiased, "Siege" is proper 68.231.188.151 ( talk) 16:39, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
The article does not make clear why the government felt it was necessary to conduct the initial raid. Were they trying to arrest Koresh? If so, why 6 dozen federal agents unable to arrest an unarmed man, when he actually came out and talked to them?
Also, is there any truth to reports that Koresh routinely left the compound? If was every week, couldn't they have arrested him at a local restaurant?
Secondly, what was the seige for? I mean, is it routine policy that when government agents have trouble serving a warrant that they force an evacuation of the premises in question?
We have a lot of information on what happened but not enough on why it happened. -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 17:41, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
68.231.188.151 ( talk) 17:10, 4 September 2009 (UTC)I really think it isn't in the ATF's power to directly raid. I think they technically need US marshals, who are much more experienced, to handle it. Does anyone know? 68.231.188.151 ( talk) 17:10, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
ATF has conducted raids on its own; US Marshals Service is the law enforcement arm of the federal court system and does track and arrest fugitives from justice: marshals do not initiate raids like Waco. Naaman Brown ( talk) 14:21, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
About midway through the category "The Siege", the article states that it is unconstitutional to employ armored vehicles in civil situations. But don't SWAT teams do that all the time? Its not like it was a real tank with a turret; all it is is a huge piece of armor that moves. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.61.213.15 ( talk) 16:19, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
68.231.188.151 ( talk) 17:00, 4 September 2009 (UTC) The only difference is a Tank has steel treads on it rather than tires. Otherwise, technically, it's an armored car (trivial point--people still die from them. Like the Irish civilians from the Brits...?) 68.231.188.151 ( talk) 17:00, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
68.231.188.151 ( talk) 16:54, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
TANKS: The CEVs (Combat Engineering Vehicles) used to ram the walls of Mt. Carmel Center and introduce gas were M60 tanks with the guns removed. Since they were "unarmed" and borrowed from the military, USAG Janet Reno considered them the equivalent of "good rent-a-cars" according to her Congressional testimony. Treaded armored vehicles, CEVs (ex-M60 tanks) and Bradley fighting vehicles, were present at the Waco Siege (see authenticated news video in "Waco: Rules of Engagement" (ROE)); they had neither cannon nor machineguns. Although they did have 40mm grenade launchers used to fire literally hundreds of Ferret CS gas grenades, they were unarmed not tanks. That was not an assault and hundreds of 40mm gas grenades were not gunfire by FBI. FLAME THROWER: Although the mix of methelene chloride and CS powder was considered flammable, the armored vehicles had no source of ignition, although McNulty (ROE) claimed the Texas Rangers found a 40mm Flash-Bang grenade at one of the points of ignition of the fire. Naaman Brown ( talk) 13:52, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
"All Law is Anthropology." -Justice Holmes
"Who Fired First" is at best inadequate and more likely a disservice. It falls into the all too general pattern of Wikiwork as lacking any referencing of Law. This could be amended to ask "Who Fired Last". The section should point out that the Government is prohibited from prior restraint and force is always reactive and proportional. The articles in general lack this facet of a jurisprudential understanding. As it stands, the prior submission is most correct- the dogs were the first to die.
The article perforce needs be IMMEDIATELY amended. 24.72.179.175 ( talk) 15:34, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
A YFZ Ranch description was added to Waco_Siege#Related_incidents even though its only relation is that some media have made a comparision. I could easily rustle up 5 or 6 incidents similarly compared, both before and after like MOVE#1985_incident and some incidents in Category:Nonwar_armed_confrontations.
I don't have a problem with a See also reference but am opposed to text reference. Rationales for including it in text, and my replies, are:
Others thoughts? CarolMooreDC ( talk) 18:34, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
I am glad some appealled bogus charges of "possession of a machine gun", and won. Machine Guns (Automatic weapons of Class 3 destructive Devices, National Firearms Act of 1934) are Legal for public possession/use in the US. Some individual states restrict them.( Not Texas.) So long as you have the federal licensing, registration, taxes, waiting period, etc, in order, you can possess as many M/Gs as you want/can afford in TX. This should not have been recorded as a "charge" against Fatti; it should have been in quotes, like some one's "opinion".You should know by now that peace officers can throw all kinds of "charges" against anyone; only what is the Law will hold up in court, and that's what counts. 68.231.188.151 ( talk) 16:46, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
"Although ATF claimed that Koresh stayed inside the compound and could not be served with a warrant, Koresh was regularly seen jogging along the Waco roads and ate at local restaurants every week."
I'm going to remove the above sentence unless someone can provide verification. In fact the whole NPOV of this section seems highly suspect.
I'll also remove this: "Some believe the media hype influenced both the FBI and the ATF and the strategies they employed during the siege." for similar reasons, not to mention WP:AWW.
SolomonTrim ( talk) 16:50, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't think I have ever deleted something just because it was unsourced and I did not want to believe it, lacking any evidence to believe it to be false. I do know I have found things that seemed unclear and posted so in Talk, or did some research and edited to clarify the presentation or add a source. There is a WP guide line "Be bold". However.....
It is one thing to flag material as source needed or please clarify or mention the issue in Talk-- it is quite another to delete it with the comment "unsourced and dubious" with the comment in Talk that basicly it is dubious because you don't want to believe it. That someone would delete parts of an article and spell the name wrong as "Karesh" more than once says something about the quality of their edits.
That Koresh tried to talk to ATF seven months before the raid is documented in Congressional Hearings on Waco that were broadcast on CSPAN, which testimony has been repeated in so many books (and included the documentary "Waco: The Rules of Engagement") that it is not believable that anyone who has studied this subject could not find it believable.
From the 1995 Congressional hearings (including Waco ROE):
Stuart H. Wright, Editor, Armageddon at Waco: Why was a warrant sought in the first place since David Koresh, on learning that he was being investigated by the ATF, invited the agents on July 30th, 1992, through his gun dealer, Henry McMahon, to come to his residence and inspect his firearms?
and later when the former ATF Deputy Director Robert Sanders testified:
John B. Shadegg, US Congress, Arizona (R): They never once followed up on that offer. Never even tried to follow up on that offer . . . Robert Sanders, former ATF Deputy Director: I can't imagine any circumstances when I would not take up such an offer. It indicates a mind-set. Perhaps it was non willful. Perhaps what the ATF thought were violations of the law were really things that Mr. Koresh thought were legal. John B. Shadegg: It suggests that what they really wanted to do was conduct a raid, not make an arrest or conduct a search. Robert Sanders: In the opinion of the agents, you know, the planning for Waco and the manner in which it was done was done for the purpose of publicity.
Cato Institute, Policy Analysis No. 395 April 9, 2001, posted by Timothy Lynch, Cato Institute's Project on Criminal Justice, from the timeline:
o July 30, 1992: ATF agents interview Texas firearms dealer Henry McMahon about his business dealings with Branch Davidian leader David Koresh. During the interview, McMahon telephones Koresh. Koresh tells McMahon that if the ATF agents perceive any legal problem, they can come to Mt. Carmel and check his inventory and paperwork. ATF agents decline the invitation.[5] 5. Henry McMahon, Testimony, 1995 Congressional Hearings, part 1, pp. 162-63.
Seperately Henry McHahon and ATF Agent Davy Aguilera have stated repeatedly (a) Aguilera interviewed McMahon 30 July 1992 (b) on the phone Koresh asked to speak to Aguilera (c) McMahon told Aguilera that Koresh was wanting to talk to Aguilera and offering to let ATF come and inspect his guns and paperwork and (d) Aguilera refused to touch the telephone.
After the ATF refused the 30 July 1992 inspection offer, the federal siege of the Weaver family went down at Ruby Ridge ID 21-31 Aug 1992. The Ruby Ridge Siege is well documented and occurred after 30 July 1992. It was a nation-wide sensation for weeks. Koresh was very much aware of it and told dozens of people about it. David Thibodeau in his book on life with the Davidians recounted Koresh being upset by Ruby Ridge, and that Koresh connected the ATF refusal to talk to him with the treatment of the Weavers.
I have a thick envelope of 1993-1994 newspaper and magazine clippings as part of my research for an article I wrote for the local Mensa group newsletter on Waco in 1994: in the aftermath of the raid the ATF told the newspapers repeatedly that they had to raid because Koresh never left the compound and could not caught off the grounds be arrested. Also interviews with the townspeople recounted seeing Koresh in Waco during the period the ATF claimed he was holed-up and they could not serve an arrest warrant.
And if you think I am being snarky, you should have been around when I made my first sloppy edits. Naaman Brown ( talk) 03:35, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
There is a reason why Aguilera refused to do a compliance inspection. You have to read the Treasury Dept report on Waco. Aguilera did not go to McMahon's business to check for compliance with gun law regulations: although he presented himself to McMahon as a compliance inspector, that was just a ruse to gain access to McMahon's records of gun transactions with Koresh. Aguilera was there as a criminal investigator to build evidence of violations of gun laws to justify a search and siezure raid. When Koresh offered to let Aguilera check his guns and paperwork to show compliance with the gun laws (even though Ex-Deputy Director of BATF Robert Sanders testified he would have accepted this offer to do a compliance inspection 30 Jul 1992 and avoid doing a raid), Aguilera was an enforcement agent doing a criminal investigation even though he was posing as a compliance inspector. Aguilera's job was to build evidence to justify a search and siezure for a criminal case and present an affadavit for warrant to justify a raid. (In a similar manner in the Ruby Ridge case, ATF agents Herb Byerly and Steve Gunderson posed as Forest Service when they went to the Weaver cabin 12 Jun 1990 to attempt to recruit Randy Weaver as an informant. They were there as ATF enforcement agents, and even though they were driving a Forest Service truck, they were under no legal obligation to perform any Forest Service functions.) Even if the raid could have been avoided by opting for a compliance inspection, that was not Aguilera's job. Naaman Brown ( talk) 12:23, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
I second the above recommendation and I am going to go ahead and remove that material. There is no source, and it is definitely not material that should just be taken at face value without need of evidence. It reads like one of the many anti-government blogs on the subject. Did the ATF want to serve a search warrant on Karesh outside of the compound? I don't know why they would since a search warrant is typically served at the premises being searched. Did the ATF claim that they could not? Was Karesh seen jogging around and eating and was thus able to be served at any time? None of this is verified and every last point needs to be or else I am sorry but it's not believable.
The second part I am deleting is this:
"Despite being personally invited by Koresh as early as July 30, 1992 to inspect the Davidians' weapons and paperwork (eight months before the raid), and refusing, the ATF pursued a strongly confrontational policy. McClennan County Sheriff Harwell was convinced that if ATF had simply called Koresh, he would have shown at the county courthouse with his lawyer, Wayne Martin. Koresh told people that the Ruby Ridge Standoff of 21–31 August 1992 convinced him that the reason ATF refused his request was they were planning a raid regardless of what he did. Between July 1992 and Feb 1993, Koresh's sermons became increasingly apocalyptic."
Again, no source is given for any of it. It again is argumentitive, clearly POV pushing as the language demonstrates an obvious condemnation of the ATF (I'm not taking a side on that one, but neither should the article) and makes great pains to paint Koresh as a martyr. I don't know what happened to be honest and maybe everything said here did happen. Maybe he did invite the ATF to view the compound and maybe the Sherrif was convinced that if they had called Koresh, he would have shown up to the courthouse. I don't know because this passage gives me no reason to know outside of the fact that the editor is convinced that it's true. That's not good enough. It makes me think this was read on a blog and since that would obviously not be seen as a reliable source, the author simply inserted the material unsourced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdlund ( talk • contribs) 20:01, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
The source of the Sheriff's statements are a videotaped interview with the Sheriff made after the fact. This video is included as a segment in the "Waco - The rules of engagement ["WROL"]. WROL is WIDELY available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Borders, P2P, etc. The hearings held after the massacre also documented the fact that Koresh offered to allow ATF to inspect on more than one occasion. There are several excerpts of these hearings on WROL. Measl talk
Report of the Department of the Treasury on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms Investigation of Vernon Wayne Howell Also Known as David Koresh September 1993 Part 2 ("Analysis") - as posted in Wikisource: 2 Section Two: Analysis of the Tactical Planning Effort 2.3 The Decision to Pursue a Raid Option and Develop a Raid Plan . . . . Having understandably decided not to rely solely on Koresh's voluntary compliance with the warrants, ATF tactical planners initially focused their attention on arresting Koresh while he was away from the Compound, either by luring him off or by waiting until he had left it on his own accord. . . . . Had more attention been paid to determining whether Koresh ever left the Compound, ATF's planners might have learned that he did in fact leave the Compound on at least two occasions while the undercover house was in operation and on several other occasions in late 1992 and early January 1993. This is not to say that he could have been intercepted on any of these trips or that ATF could have devised a plan that would have succeeded in luring Koresh away. But, given the planners' reasonable expectation that arresting Koresh away from the Compound would vastly reduce the risks attending any law enforcement action at that location, far more effort should have been made in this area. And ATF's failure to make such an effort must be attributed to management's failure to establish an effective intelligence operation.
SO, the US Government Treasury Department Report already cited at Wikipedia Source reads like one of the many anti-government blogs on the subject. I am getting frustrated with people who do not read the cited sources on this subject but delete stuff they don't want to believe based on their own unsourced surmises and gut feelings.
If you think something needs a specific cited reference, the polite thing to do is post a source needed tag not delete it: read the instructions on editing Wikipedia. Often a cite at the end of a paragraph is the source for the paragraph. The idea that every sentence and or even phrase needs a reference is absurd. Naaman Brown ( talk) 11:59, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
None of the "popular culture" examples are properly cited. The Waco Siege wasn't the first religious group to have government troubles, so television shows and movies which appear similar may actually be based on a different event. Even if these pop-culture references bear an undeniably strong resemblance to the actual historical events, they are meaningless without a cited quote from the originators (otherwise it is Original Research). Regardless, none of these references help us understand either the historical account nor the public's perception of these events. ∅BRIT 21:01, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
That the source of the fire is contested should be an uncontested fact about this incident.
The origin of the fire at Waco 19 Apr 1993 is not neatly settled. Davidian survivors David Thibodeau, Derek Lovelock and Clive Doyle in Congressional testimony and interviews denied any plan by Davidians to start a fire; the descriptions by Thibodeau and Doyle describe the fires as unknown origin, could be accidental, or deliberate by the Davidians or the FBI. The FBI had turned off the electricity the first week of the siege. For weeks, the Davidians were using Coleman lanterns for lighting; the Davidians' discussions at 7:00 am the morning of 19 Apr 1993 of how much fuel was available and how it was distributed had an innocent explanation; the fact that the Davidian's bought diesel fuel can be explained by the fact they were running a ranch. You drive tanks through a building lighted and heated with lanterns and stoves that run off gasoline or fuel oil and the potential for accidental fire should be obvious. Of course to beat tort suits the government is going to declare the Davidians guilty case closed.
Appendix G of the Treasury Dept Waco Report, written by the Historian of the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, Dr. Frederick S. Calhoun, puts the siege on the Branch Davidians at Waco in the context of the sieges on the Symbionese Liberation Army (SLA) at Los Angeles, Gordon Kahl at Smithville Arkansas, Bob Mathews at Whideby Island, and the Covenent Sword and Arm of the Lord (CSA) in Arkansas (US Government Printing Office: 1993-358-365). All these sieges but the CSA siege ended in FBI tear gas attacks followed by fire. At Waco, the Texas Rangers found metallic 40mm grenades of the type fired from M79 military grenade launchers: M651 tear gas grenades and flash bang grenades by NICO Pyrotechnik; the manufacturers told the Texas Rangers these incendiary devices had been sold to the FBI. It is amazing the number of "cults" that have ended sieges with suicide by fire after a tear gas attack: MOVE, SLA, Posse Comitatus, the Order, the Branch Davidians. The only major "cult" siege listed by Calhoun that did not end in suicide by fire after a gas attack was CSA. In the context of discussing the Waco Siege on page 498 of his biography "My Life" (Vintage Books, 2005), Bill Clinton claims that as Gov. of Arkansas in 1985, he called off the planned FBI raid on the CSA and insisted on a negotiated surrender no matter how long it might take. Clinton claimed he regreted not following his gut instinct to handle the Davidians like the CSA. Since Waco the CIRG has handled political/religious sieges like the CSA siege was handled: negotiate til hell freezes over. Naaman Brown ( talk) 15:18, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
Capitalisation in this article is a mess, especially in the information box. I cleaned up a little in the article, but it needs to be thoroughly line edited.
-- UnicornTapestry ( talk) 16:32, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Couple people keep removing "then-Davidian leader Vernon Wayne Howell, better known as David Koresh." Please explain the rationale for deleting it, especially when it is needed to identify him in a later quote from a government document? His name is also part of the title of the Treasury Dept report. CarolMooreDC ( talk) 21:27, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Koresh did not "change his name" in the classic sense of going into a court and actually changing it. He used the alias, while his legal name remained Howell. It is perfectly legal to go by alias provided the alias is not being used as a means to defraud, and many thousands of actors, comedians, etc., do it every hour. Measl talk
There are many articles stating that the only 4 atf agents were former bodyguards for Bill Clinton when he was governor and campaigning. Also their autopsies showed that all were executed during the initial raid. Why isn't this in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.61.3.207 ( talk) 16:25, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
comment (click "edit" above to see it) |
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The previous message was not relevant and appears to be misplaced here. I have hidden it. Chaosdruid ( talk) 19:05, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
The section Accusations claims that:
Now, this is mystifying. Was the deprogrammer Rick Ross among the koreshians when they were besieged? (Then: how did he get in?) Or did he speak from outside through walls or by telepathy or by maybe a loudspeaker? Or did he speak to outsiders or to koreshians that weren't besieged? In that case, what was the meaning with such a statement? Rursus dixit. ( mbork3!) 19:48, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
The National Firearms Museum in Northern Virginia has a heavily charred M82 , a semi-automatic .50 BMG caliber anti-material rifle, that is listed as being recovered from the Waco compound... isn't this proof positive that they possessed such weapons? Or, for the conspiracy minded, that the National Firearms Museum are a bunch of liars? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.155.185.64 ( talk) 03:51, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
The ATF affidavit for search warrant to justify the raid mentions the claims that the Davidians had (legally) purchased two .50 caliber rifles; however, ATF agent David Aguilera affirmed to the federal magistrate the witnesses were wrong, he knew they were (illegal) .51 British Boys antitank guns. No .51 Boys antitank guns were found, but several federal inventories of Davidian evidence do not mention the .50 rifles bought legally by the Davidians either. Nothing feeds conspiracy theories better than the government misrepresenting evidence. Instead of denouncing the "conspiracy minded" and thowing about accusations, why not post some verifiable, reliably sourced documentation of the National Firearms Museum exhibit? Naaman Brown ( talk) 11:42, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Hi all
I am a neutral party and editing the article in compliance with Wiki guidelines to try and restore NPOV as well as factual accuracy.
I appreciate there may be a lot of discussion forthcoming in trying to restore the article to a level it deserves on such a major event.
I have started by tidying the first few sections and the infobox.
I have moved the details of "equipment" from the info box to the relevant section in the article body. The info box was difficult to read and made the page extremely untidy. I trust that opinion will be that it is better in the section than in the box. If I am worng in that assumption I am sure you will let me know :¬)
thanks Chaosdruid ( talk) 20:14, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
The article states "An ATF agent was killed as he approached the door.". This statement is not correct. One agent on the "door team" was wounded (Rodriguez, wound to his finger I believe) but none killed. I suggest a source for this statement should be provided or the sentence deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.203.226.130 ( talk) 13:14, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
I have removed the false statement from the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.203.224.113 ( talk) 11:24, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
This is an
archive of past discussions for the period January 2008 to December 2008. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
I came here looking for what Waco was and why and how and all that info, and I can barely get past the first few paragraphs without being confused. why did the fbi want to raid waco? was it a cult? what were they accused of? why were the police so heavy handed? what did the people at waco do? I feel like this is VERY US-centric and that you need to know stuff beforehand before reading the article, which is very unencyclopedic if you ask me 81.149.170.242 ( talk) 15:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I highly doubt the police had 25 casualties against 1 machine gun. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.185.41.21 ( talk) 03:29, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
This is a note to inform all interested watchers of this article that Wikisource has chosen the Branch Davidians and Waco Siege as their Collaboration of the Week.
This means that we are spending this week collecting, copying and formatting Public Domain documents related to the church and its 1993 siege. This includes speeches by David Koresh, Federal documents in the aftermath of the siege, the charges against Lon Horiuchi and the surviving church members, and early church documents whose copyright have expired.
We would encourage you all to come help us, if you have any questions, feel free to leave a question on my talk page - either on Wikisource or Wikipedia!
I hope to see some of you there, helping us document the primary sources for future research and historical analysis!
Sherurcij ( Speaker for the Dead) 21:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
There is no reference that the this was started under Bush seniors presidency and concluded under the Clinton administration. There is no mention of Hillary's possible influence and also Vince Foster close connections to Hillary and Waco. As I understand there were also FBI power struggles going on because of the switch in administration. All these facts might help further explain the disastrous handling of this situation, and the ongoing cover-up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.211.130 ( talk) 21:08, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
References I found to "Davidian Branch Compound", "Mt. Carmel's compound" and similar wordings of "compound": Time Magazine, Tribune-Herald Although many followers have fled, Howell remains with about 75 faithful in a compound they built to await the end of the world. Former cult members and authorities say it is heavily armed. Guards reportedly walked the grounds at night. Perched above the compound is a tower with lookout windows facing all directions, touristic website for the compound (photos of underground tunnels and bunker), Frontline report, US Department of Justice Evaluation of the Handling of the Branch Davidian Stand-off in Waco, Texas, cnn.com, transcripts of Terry Nichols trial at cnn.com.
For all this I'm re-adding "compound" to the article, which was replaced by "complex" and "building", which look like a POV wording for people believing that it was a deliberate massacre. Like here [1] where they call it "village complex" when talking about fleeing mother and children, even altought the header calls it compound. As an aside it's also used on newspapers, like on St Louis Dispath [2] [3], and the fire investigation [4], and used interchangeably on some places.
To sum it up, I infer from my searches that "compound" is a WP:NPOV description of the place and ws used on the trial to describe it, while "complex" appears to have a POV bias for its use on POV websites, and "building" is probably plain incorrect, so I'll add it back in short time. I'll wait a pair of days for comments from other editors -- Enric Naval ( talk) 15:44, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
P.D.D.D.: As for military significance, Koresh believed that he was related to Cyrus_the_Great named korush or similar, who was a conqueror king (or that he was Cyrus himself, can't bother to find the source right now), and the day that the AFT presented the search warrant the cult members were saying the "the assyrians are coming" [10], the assyrians had a empire on persa empire territory before it existed, and it's probably also some reference to the bible. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 13:20, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
P.D.D.D.D.: From indictement [12], statements supporting that the Waco buildings had militar significance
“ | 5. It was a part of the conspiracy that Vernon K. Howell, also known as David Koresh, would and did advocate and encourage an armed confrontation, which he described as a "war," between his followers and representatives of the United States government. Vernon K. Howell, also known as David Koresh, originally predicted that this "war" would occur in the Nation of Israel and later changed the location to Mt. Carmel Compound, near Waco, Texas. | ” |
THE COURT: Mrs. Flowers, would you publish the
verdict, please, and make sure your mike is working? MRS. FLOWERS: Yes, sir. Is it working? "We, the Jury, unanimously find each of the following Defendants guilty or not guilty of the offense of Conspiracy to Murder Federal Officers, as alleged in Count One of the Indictment: "Brad Eugene Branch, not guilty. "Kevin A. Whitecliff, not guilty. "Clive J. Doyle, not guilty. "Jaime Castillo, not quilty. "Livingston Fagan, not guilty. "Paul Gordon Fatta, not guilty. "Woodrow Kendrick, not guilty. "Norman Washington Allison, not guilty. "Graeme Leonard Craddock, not guilty. "Renos Avraam, not guilty. "Ruth Ottman Riddle, not guilty. "Question 2. Wer the Jury, unanimously find each of the following Defendants guilty or not guilty of the offense of Aiding and Abetting Unknown Principals and Each Other in the Murder of Federal Officers, as alleged in Count Two of the Indictment: "Brad Eugene Branch, not guilty. "Kevin A. Whitecliff, not guilty. "Clive J..Doyle, not guilty. "Jaime Castillo, not guilty.' "Livingston Fagan, not guilty. "Paul Gordon Fatta, not guilty. "Woodrow Kendrick, @ot guilty. "Norman Washington Allison, not guilty. "Graeme Leonard Craddock, not guilty. "Renos Avraam, not guilty. "Ruth Ottman Riddle, not guilty. "For each of the Defendants, if any, that you found not guilty in Question 2, or for each of the Defendants, if any, you were unable to reach a verdict in Question 2, answer this question. For each of the Defendants, if any, that you found guilty in Question 2, do not answer this question with regard to that Defendant.� "Question 3. We, the Jury, unanimously find each of the following Defendants guilty or not guilty of the offense of Aiding and Abetting Unknown Principals and Each Other in the lesser included offense of Volunt@ Manalaughter of Federal officers, as described in the instructions: "Brad Eugene Branch, guilty. "Kevin A. Whitecliff, guilty. "Clive J. Doyle, not guilty. "Jaime Castillo, guilty. "Livingston Fagan, guilty. "Paul Gordon Fatta, not guilty. "Woodrow Kendrickt not guilty. "Norman Washington Allison, not guilty. "Graeme Leonard Craddock, not guilty. "Renos Avraam, guilty. "Ruth Ottman Riddle, not guilty.
On February 28, the day of the raid, when the ATF says that they were only going to present a search and arrest warrant, they though that they would encounter no resistance and weren't prepared for a fight. Some of the agents thought that there would be problems and asked to be allowed to bring their rifles, and their request was denied. The ATF was not preparing an attack, so saying that it attacked the complex is an accuracy. See [22]. It was also a raid too, not an assault. I changed the infobox to say "shoout". The attack at April 19, however, does qualify as a full assault with intention of getting control of the buildings with force. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 22:00, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Reference Davidian Criminal Trial Transcripts 2054-2055
Richardson - Cross (Mr. Rentz) 2054-2055 25 Q When you left the staging area, did you by chance put your 1 blood type on your arm? 2 A No, sir, not on the arm. 3 Q Where did you put it? 4 A The blood type was -- was placed on the side of the neck. 5 Q Why did you do that? 6 A I didn't place it on there, that's what was some -- one of 7 the other agents came by and he placed it on the side of the 8 neck. 9 Q Why did you do it, do you know? 10 A I assumed that in case there was any injury or anything, 11 that you would be able to know what the person's blood type was. 12 Q Had you ever done that on a raid before? 13 A No, sir. 14 Q So, you anticipated possibly or somebody anticipated the 15 need for knowing your blood type, then? 16 A Someone apparently did, sir. 17 Q Okay. 18 MR. RENTZ: No further questions.
99.148.166.41 (talk) 01:28, 1 April 2008 (UTC)rick
Similarly, the September 17, 1993 memorandum on "ATF Statements and Issues concerning ATF Knowledge of the Loss of the Element of Surprise," prepared for the Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Enforcement contains this summary: March 1, 1993 Troy WAR Interview ATF initiates a shooting review. David Troy and Bill Wood interview Rodriguez and Mastin (3/1), Chojnacki (3/3), Cavanaugh (3/3), Sarabyn (3/2). Troy tells Review they immediately determined that these stories did not add up. They communicated information to both Hartnett and Conroy on the day or day after each interview. Conroy gave Troy's handwritten notes to Hartnett. (Note -- Johnston at this point advised Hartnett to stop the ATF Shooting review because ATF was creating Brady Material. Because Chojnacki had not yet been interviewed, Johnston authorized that interview but no notes were created.)
Now compare this to the Treasury Review version of why the shooting review was halted
After the interviews, the shooting review team was concerned because Sarabyn's urgency and his statements at the staging area about Koresh's knowledge that ATF and the National Guard were coming were inconsistent with his lack of any recollection that Rodriguez had told him that Koresh had been tipped about the raid. As a result, the team was prepared to conduct additional interviews. However, after being told by Hartnett that the local U.S. Attorney's office had directed ATF to stop the shooting review because it was needlessly duplicating the pending leak and murder investigations, the team concluded its efforts.
This is why this subject is a bear trap. It's why I maintain the sources you are using are POV. Someone has "sanitized" the information for the official report. "Brady Material" if you don't know is exculpatory material that the prosecution discovers during an investigation and must disclose to the defense. 76.203.230.246 ( talk) 11:36, 2 April 2008 (UTC) Rick
Germane to some of the issues raised anove: Chuck Hustmyre was one of the ATF agents on the raid. Hustmyre's Trojan Horse: Inside the ATF Raid at Waco, Texas, 2003, was posted at the Court TV website. According to Hustmyre, he was armed with an AR15 rifle. Lowell Sprague had an MP5 carbine. David Sullivan had a .308 sniper rifle. Hustmyre did not inventory all the arms of the 75 raiding party, but there were long guns present.
Quote Hustmyre on the meth lab claim:
ATF had managed to persuade the Texas National Guard and the governor that the compound might contain a methamphetamine lab. All the agents knew the lab story was bullshit, but someone at ATF [HQ] decided to spin the tale to the Texas authorities so that we could get access to their equipment and personnel.
Quote Hustmyre on the presence of ATF snipers:
Special Agent David Sullivan started the ATF sniper program just a year before the raid on the Branch Davidian compound. Sullivan, a former Marine infantry officer, sat at a breakfast table in the undercover house across the road from the compound, sipping coffee and firing his .308-caliber scoped rifle at cult gunmen in the upper windows of the compound almost 300 yards away.
Quote Hustmyre on ATF ceasefire:
About 45 minutes into the shootout, the volume of gunfire finally started to slacken. We were running out of ammunition. The Davidians, however, had plenty. Later, the number of rounds stored inside the compound was estimated in the hundreds of thousands.
Naaman Brown ( talk) 01:25, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
"The bunker is later found to have held only the remaining women and children in the compound. They were trapped in the concrete bunker as it filled with CS gas; all were either gassed to death or burned to death." while this is flagged as citation needed, I think it should be removed if not sourced. First, it should easily be verifiable if true. Second, it contradicts the notion that CS gas is generally recognized as non-lethal (see wikipedia entry). Third, it is inflamatory/reflects bias - while it is possible the women and children were burned to death, absent a cause of death determination, claiming they were "gassed to death" is not only scaremongering, but seems biased against federal agents. It could have a short statement that the gas may have contributed to an inability to exit or such, but again, absent a source, this speculation does nothing good for this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.184.99.4 ( talk • contribs) 18:34, 17 April 2008
A Special Forces Rapid Support Unit, assigned to Operation Alliance, trained ATF on 25-27 February 1993, in company-level tactical C2, Medical Evacuation training, IV ABC's,[106] and assistance with Range and MOUT sites.[107] According to military documents and military witnesses who appeared before the subcommittees, no non-Mission Essential Task List (wartime tasks) training, involvement in actual planning occurred.[108] House of Representatives report. Pre-raid military assistance requested by ATF and assistance actually received.
That a "shape charge" may have been placed on the concrete roof of the "bunker" at the bottom of the tower, and that a bedroll found in the "bunker," [28] (page 12)
Here you read this statement:
CS gas is generally recognized as non-lethal (see wikipedia entry)
but if you go to the Wikipedia CS gas entry you find this:
Although described as a non-lethal weapon for crowd control, many studies
have raised doubts about this classification. As well as creating severe
pulmonary damage, CS can also significantly damage the heart and liver.(AMA)
On September 28, 2000, Prof. Dr. Uwe Heinrich released a study commissioned
by John C. Danforth, of 'The Office of Special Counsel', to investigate the
use of CS by the FBI at the Branch Davidians' Mount Carmel compound. He
concluded that the lethality of CS used would have been determined mainly
by two factors: whether gas masks were used and whether the occupants were
trapped in a room. He suggests that if no gas masks were used and the
occupants were trapped, then, "...there is a distinct possibility that this
kind of CS exposure can significantly contribute to or even cause lethal
effects."(Heinrich)
Many reports have associated CS exposure with miscarriages.(AMA) This is
consistent with its reported clastogenic effect (abnormal chromosome change)
on mammalian cells.
When CS is metabolized, cyanide can be detected in human tissue.(AMA)
According to the United States Army Center for Health Promotion and
Preventive Medicine, CS emits "very toxic fumes" when heated to
decomposition, and at specified concentrations CS gas is an immediate
danger to life and health. They also state that those exposed to CS gas
should seek medical attention immediately.(USArmy)
. . . . .
Use of CS in war is prohibited under the terms of the 1997 Chemical
Weapons Convention, signed by most nations in 1993 with all but five
other nations signing between the years of 1994 through 1997.
-----------------------------
Heinrich, U. "Possible lethal effects of CS tear gas on Branch Davidians
during the FBI raid on the Mount Carmel compound near Waco, Texas."
www.veritagiustizia.it. September 2000.
Williams, Kenneth E. "Detailed Facts About Tear Agent O-Chlorobenzylidene
Malononitrile (CS)." U.S. Army Center for Health Promotion and Preventive
Medicine.
Howard Hu, MD, MPH; Jonathan Fine, MD; Paul Epstein, MD, MPH; Karl Kelsey,
MD, MOH; Preston Reynolds, MD, PhD; Bailus Walker, PhD, MPH. "Tear Gas:
Harassing Agent or Toxic Chemical Weapon?" Journal of the American Medical
Association. August 4, 1989. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
67.235.102.180 (
talk)
19:40, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
I reverted this edit [33] adding "war on waco" as a name to refer to Waco Siege. I looked up "war in waco" [34]. Altough google claims 11200 results, if you try to reach the end of the list it stops at the third page (23 results that are not repetitions). I could only find one real usage of the term on an editorial here. There was also a reference on a opinion column on New York Times that is not using it a noun [35], as well as several references to completely unrelated events that also get called "war in waco", like a judicial dispute [36] a Scrabble competition [37], a dispute about where to diposit cow manure [38], a war on gas prizes on Waco [39], etc. There is nothing indicating a regular use of that term to refer to Waco Siege. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 03:50, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
According to the late comedian Bill Hicks, he saw videos of tanks leveling the compound and/or setting the place on fire, on purpose. This was apparently on "public access" TV and not on any main network. So: if such a video exists, is it perhaps on the interweb somewhere? I can't even find anything about a RUMOUR that such tapes exist. So is it an uber conspiracy or do I just suck at searching Google? 74.14.122.167 ( talk) 12:34, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:FBIphoto04-19-93.JPG
What's the charge? What actually provoked the ATFs or the FBI to produce the warrant and for what cause?
I'm having difficulty of sifting through with this heavy texts.
Could do with {{ cleanup}}.
88.105.32.45 ( talk) 16:54, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I put in Category: Police brutality because Category: Religiously motivated violence in the United States is in there, and I'm assuming they were NOT talking about mainstream Christianity attacking a small dissident sect. In fact even that is up for interpretative opinion, one way or the other. Since neither accusation has a reliable source in the article I'd say both should be gone until such time. Carol Moore 17:57, 14 October 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc
This entry also starts off with an upgrade to the "disputed facts" warning from the Branch Davidian page, since this article inherits the most contentious issues from that page. The transferred content is rife with inaccuracies and riddled by bias. Until the quality of this article is substantially improved, the warning should remain.-- WacoKid 03:48, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. The article, as is, is crap. - 98.204.38.204 ( talk) 22:17, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Concerning the prelude to the 28 Feb 1993 Raid, several significant facts which can be traced to multiple sources get overlooked in most recaps of this subject:
Sources I have used include published accounts by David Thibodeau who lived in Mt. Carmel Center and by Chuck Hustmyre one of the ATF raid party, among many others. Naaman Brown ( talk) 01:03, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
I dispute this statement:
However, the raid was moved up a day in response to the Waco Tribune-Herald "Sinful Messiah" article (which the ATF had tried to prevent from being published).
One, the raid was moved to 28 Feb 1993 because the plain text of the search warrant said it expired 28 Feb 1993 10:00pm. Two, the Waco Herald Tribune had held off publishing "Sinful Messiah" at the request of the ATF for a month. When the Herald Tribune informed ATF they were going to start publishing the series that weekend, the ATF did not request an extension of the delay or raise an objection to the publication. Naaman Brown ( talk) 02:30, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
I have questions about this statement:
The children had been physically and sexually abused long before the standoff
Janet Reno herself admitted that there was no evidence the children had been physically or sexually abused during the standoff and that the intelligence such had happened during the standoff was false. Janet Reno claimed she had been told that babies were being beaten, that Koresh was slapping babies around, and she later admitted that was not true.
Allegations of physical abuse of the children before the standoff came largely from dissident members who left the group in 1989 and moved to Australia, testifying to what they believed was happening a continent away in 1992. Phil Penningroth who wrote the "In the Line of Duty: Ambush at Waco" docu-drama screenplay found the dissident members to be unreliable sources of information: they contradicted each others' stories. The child abuse allegation was that the children were beaten black and blue with wooden paddles. The FBI and US Congressmen who were approached with those original allegations told the dissident members that the federal government had no jurisdiction over spanking children. Three investigations by Texas authorities with jurisdiction over child abuse found no evidence of such beatings, although they were uneasy with the Davidian's beliefs and lifestyle.
Previous leaders of the Branch Davidian (George Roden and before him his mother Bishop Lois Roden who tutored Koresh) openly advocated polygamy. Koresh was a polygamist and believed that any woman who had her menses was eligible for "marriage": his one legal wife was Rachel Jones married at fourteen with her parents' approval. As to the sexual abuse claim, McClennan County Sheriff Harwell pointed out that until one of Koresh's "brides" or their parent or guardian filed a formal complaint with the proper authorities, it had to be treated as consensual sex (Harwell considered it was tantamount to statutory rape even if no complaints were filed but there was nothing he could do legally). Richard Jewell did use the Michigan court system to get custody of his daughter Keri from his wife Sheri and Koresh.
The ATF had no jurisdiction over child discipline, polygamy or consensual sex even if it rose to the level of statutory rape. Children were physically disciplined and Koresh was a polygamist with multiple "wives" from fourteen to fifty-four years of age, but the image of Koresh torturing and raping children is as false and inflamatory as the claim he was running a meth lab. Naaman Brown ( talk) 16:42, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
The prelude page refers to "8,000" rounds of ammunition. This is almost certainly too low a figure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikipeaches ( talk • contribs) 13:10, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
The first four ATF agents interviewed by the Texas Rangers (before the Rangers were ordered to halt the interviews because they were producing exculpatory evidence that could aid the defense at trial) told the Rangers that they believed that the first shots fired were the dog team neutralizing the Davidians' dogs: five dogs inside a kennel were shot to death. Davidian Renos Lenny Avraam has stated the first shots he heard were from the direction of the dog kennel. The raid rehearsal at Ft. Hood included "neutralizing" the dogs. Personnel were added to the raid team after the training at Ft. Hood who apparently were not aware of the dog team plans. As in the Ruby Ridge incident, there is evidence that the first shot could have been a shot by law enforcement at a dog on the subject's property, prompting other agents to "return" fire at the suspects. Naaman Brown ( talk) 03:33, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
This cite to have any validity needs pages listed. It is nearly 1000 pages long (946) and alot of it is hand written which means ctrl+f cannot be used to find what it is supposed to be confirming. There is no way a resonable person could take the time to read 1000 pages of information to confirm somthing and therefore it is almost worthless to as a citation. 69.123.106.132 ( talk) 04:15, 19 January 2009 (UTC) 69.123.106.132
“ | The perpetrators of the Columbine high school massacre were inspired by the Waco Siege. [41] | ” |
There was a link removed from the article with the justification that google might not authorize it. I don't understand how that can be a problem. We are dealing with the passing of a public link. I believe it is of the interest of google.video that the google is passed. There is nothing to suggest otherwise, so there is no basis for this decision. I understand the need to be cautious about this sort of things, but in this case I don't even see a suspicion. Also, we have to understand what we lose by not putting up this recognized useful information. We have to be cautious on both sides of the issue. Maziotis ( talk) 13:43, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
The link would not be embedded in this website, so we would be taking a link to their website. There is even a “share” button on their page, so they want their link to be shared. This is absurd. There is simply no basis whatsoever to suggest that we are infringing on google rights, nor that we are even going against its “wishes”…
Ask yourselves if the issue here is really copyrights. wikipedia:iar wikipedia:DICK Maziotis ( talk) 13:48, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Looking at the official website of the Rules of engagement video, they are selling DVD and tape versions, and they even have a movie trailer. It's obvious that they are comercializing the video, and they don't have any link to that google video. Without further proof, it appears that the google video is actually a copyright infringement, and that it's not sanctioned by the copyright holders (if would be different if they were one of those freedom-of-information lovers, who put a low-res online version of their whole work, and then they ask people to buy commercial copies to support them, but this does not appear to be the case). -- Enric Naval ( talk) 22:41, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Woah!This whole article appears to have been written by cultists. I think people who aren't need to have a look into this. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
213.86.243.150 (
talk)
13:16, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
I feel that the video game references trivialize a very tragic event. We are dealing with the deaths of federal agents and civilians, issues of the paramilitarization of law enforcement, overreaching by the War on Drugs, reactions and preparations for Y2K Millinialism by religious sects and the overreaction by the federal government, and the mention of videogames is a travesty.
The 2003 video game Postal 2 features scene of a cult group being surrounded by ATF agents at "the compound". The place of this event is modeled almost exactly as the Mount Carmel Center.
There is a fictionalized account of the incident (taking many liberties with the facts) in John Updike's 1996 novel "In the Beauty of the Lilies."
The 1997 PC game Redneck Rampage features a level which is supposed to be the Mount Carmel Center complete with underground tunnels.It also has an audio of what is supposed to be attorney general Janet Reno saying words to the effect of burn them alive.
The Updike reference repeated points already made in a preceding comment on the Updike novel. Naaman Brown ( talk) 13:57, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
There sure is a lot here--I hope most folks think as I do it was a gov't screw up and cover up. There is no restriction on how many guns (not "weapons" as Wikipedia suggests) may be owned by a citizen of Texas. This is a state thing, anyway, not federal. 150 guns among all those people in the cult doesn't seem excessive--this averages about 2 guns per person; the Texas average is over 3. A package breaking open containing legally bought and shipped guns and black powder does not warrant a warrant. The fact that Koresh explained "automatic fire" accusations by showing his hell fire device explains a lot and shows his cooperation. Beside, fully auto guns are legal in Texas with a federal permit. This whole thing could have been taken care of peacefully with negotiators. There was no call for an armed "raid" at all. It became our own little Jonestown. Shame on the fed's. 24.251.154.69 ( talk) 04:04, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
see the arson report
[42] and the analysis of the arson report by the Deputy Attorney General
[43]. The article misses a lot of evidence. For example, it cites the testimony of one Davidian to a magazine, but it doesn't cite the testimony of four Davidians five Davidians including the one cited in the footnote, but it cites the testimony that one Davidian made years later to a magazine. --
Enric Naval (
talk)
14:26, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
After two years of refusing to deal with this article, I'm ready. This article really is a mess and makes very poor use of some of the best sources. (Including the 1993 Treasury Report which I've just uploaded to wikisource - still have to do appendices.) So here's an outline that better integrates existing material. More subsections probably will be added.
Needless to say this is a lot of work but luckily a lot of info still lingers in my brain from writing my book THE DAVIDIAN MASSACRE 16 years ago. Plus of course I've learned to write much more NPOV in last two years on wikipedia :-) CarolMooreDC ( talk) 13:47, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
If this incident had happened in a country like India, Wikipedia will be quick to point out that this is a terrorist attack by a government agency against identifiable religious groups. BUT since this had happened in the Great White West, no one is calling this a terrorist attack by ATF. This is clearly an indication of bias in western societies and educational system. This is not the only article on this website like this. The US terrorist army attacking a passenger jet( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 ) in Iraq-Iran war also downplayed. Why these events are not act of terrorism?
There has been constant changes to the death toll. Some reports put the number at 74 including two pregnant women, some put it at 76 counting the unborn children as 2 deaths. Other reports have the number of deaths as more than 80, and one report listed in the article puts the death toll at 75. There needs to be a consistent number in the article and a reputable source attached to the number.
There have been various complaints about the use of the current Military info box. I realized we need one for use with articles like those in
Category:Nonwar_armed_confrontations that combine
Template:Infobox Military Conflict,
Template:Infobox civilian attack,
Template:Infobox Historical Event as part of
Category:Law infobox templates. But I haven't figured out how to create the new template page. Before spend time doing so, if someone here's just itching to do it rather like below, do tell and we can discuss. Or tell me if you know someone else who loves doing them.
[REMOVED DRAFT PER BELOW]
Thanks.
CarolMooreDC (
talk)
14:00, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
{{Infobox Law Enforcement Action | Action_name = | Image_Name = | Image_Caption = | Also_known_ as = | Date = | Location = | Coordinates = | Purpose_of_Action = | Agencies_involved = | Target = | Coordinates = | Weapons/equipment = | Result = | Injuries = | Fatalities = | Followup investigations = | Notes = }}
CarolMooreDC ( talk) 23:36, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Some of the text sounds like original research or completely irrelevant to the actual topic of the Siege. For instance, "Although ATF claimed that Koresh stayed inside the compound and could not be served with a warrant, Koresh was regularly seen jogging along the Waco roads and ate at local restaurants on a weekly basis." -- no citation. "the ATF pursued a strongly confrontational approach" "Trading in legal firearms is by no means unusual in many US states. One of the largest sources of funds for the Mormon Church in its early days, for example, came from the Browning family's sales of shotguns and rifles in the Frontier days of the 19th Century, then later machine guns and other arms in the First World War."
This is a bit concerning really. 128.174.161.61 ( talk) 22:04, 24 January 2009 (UTC) 68.231.188.151 ( talk) 17:22, 4 September 2009 (UTC)What is so "concerning"? Mormons (LDS) are a very American faith; we are raised with guns. Guns put food on the table and defended us. David Koresh, although he badly strayed, was in a Mormon splinter cult; so guns were there also. John Browning was a good Mormon; he did his mission work, and when the Gov't. asked him for a new pistol and machine guns, he did his American duty and developed some. LDS is not anti-war and one of the few faiths not anti-gun--it isn't Encouraged to carry a gun for self-defense, but we have nothing written against it if you feel you have a legitimate need. Joseph Smith was not criticised for trying to defend himself in Carthage Jail before his murder. 68.231.188.151 ( talk) 17:16, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
{{
movereq|Waco Siege}}
Waco Massacre → Waco Siege — It should be moved back to "Waco Siege". The sources call it that name in its majority, so it's the proper name per WP:COMMONNAMES. Only a few call it "Waco Massacre". -- Enric Naval ( talk) 14:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Waco Siege is not only a more common name, it is closer to NPOV. Naaman Brown ( talk) 17:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I agree that Waco Siege is both more common and less opinionated. Harksaw ( talk) 18:08, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Comment: I have reverted the move; given the obvious controversy it would generate, such an action should clearly have been discussed first. -- Ckatz chat spy 20:51, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Comment: It was a massacre, but until enough people start calling it a massacre, "siege" will have to do. Apostle12 ( talk) 23:09, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
It Was a Massacre; but to remain objective and unbiased, "Siege" is proper 68.231.188.151 ( talk) 16:39, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
The article does not make clear why the government felt it was necessary to conduct the initial raid. Were they trying to arrest Koresh? If so, why 6 dozen federal agents unable to arrest an unarmed man, when he actually came out and talked to them?
Also, is there any truth to reports that Koresh routinely left the compound? If was every week, couldn't they have arrested him at a local restaurant?
Secondly, what was the seige for? I mean, is it routine policy that when government agents have trouble serving a warrant that they force an evacuation of the premises in question?
We have a lot of information on what happened but not enough on why it happened. -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 17:41, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
68.231.188.151 ( talk) 17:10, 4 September 2009 (UTC)I really think it isn't in the ATF's power to directly raid. I think they technically need US marshals, who are much more experienced, to handle it. Does anyone know? 68.231.188.151 ( talk) 17:10, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
ATF has conducted raids on its own; US Marshals Service is the law enforcement arm of the federal court system and does track and arrest fugitives from justice: marshals do not initiate raids like Waco. Naaman Brown ( talk) 14:21, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
About midway through the category "The Siege", the article states that it is unconstitutional to employ armored vehicles in civil situations. But don't SWAT teams do that all the time? Its not like it was a real tank with a turret; all it is is a huge piece of armor that moves. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.61.213.15 ( talk) 16:19, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
68.231.188.151 ( talk) 17:00, 4 September 2009 (UTC) The only difference is a Tank has steel treads on it rather than tires. Otherwise, technically, it's an armored car (trivial point--people still die from them. Like the Irish civilians from the Brits...?) 68.231.188.151 ( talk) 17:00, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
68.231.188.151 ( talk) 16:54, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
TANKS: The CEVs (Combat Engineering Vehicles) used to ram the walls of Mt. Carmel Center and introduce gas were M60 tanks with the guns removed. Since they were "unarmed" and borrowed from the military, USAG Janet Reno considered them the equivalent of "good rent-a-cars" according to her Congressional testimony. Treaded armored vehicles, CEVs (ex-M60 tanks) and Bradley fighting vehicles, were present at the Waco Siege (see authenticated news video in "Waco: Rules of Engagement" (ROE)); they had neither cannon nor machineguns. Although they did have 40mm grenade launchers used to fire literally hundreds of Ferret CS gas grenades, they were unarmed not tanks. That was not an assault and hundreds of 40mm gas grenades were not gunfire by FBI. FLAME THROWER: Although the mix of methelene chloride and CS powder was considered flammable, the armored vehicles had no source of ignition, although McNulty (ROE) claimed the Texas Rangers found a 40mm Flash-Bang grenade at one of the points of ignition of the fire. Naaman Brown ( talk) 13:52, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
"All Law is Anthropology." -Justice Holmes
"Who Fired First" is at best inadequate and more likely a disservice. It falls into the all too general pattern of Wikiwork as lacking any referencing of Law. This could be amended to ask "Who Fired Last". The section should point out that the Government is prohibited from prior restraint and force is always reactive and proportional. The articles in general lack this facet of a jurisprudential understanding. As it stands, the prior submission is most correct- the dogs were the first to die.
The article perforce needs be IMMEDIATELY amended. 24.72.179.175 ( talk) 15:34, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
A YFZ Ranch description was added to Waco_Siege#Related_incidents even though its only relation is that some media have made a comparision. I could easily rustle up 5 or 6 incidents similarly compared, both before and after like MOVE#1985_incident and some incidents in Category:Nonwar_armed_confrontations.
I don't have a problem with a See also reference but am opposed to text reference. Rationales for including it in text, and my replies, are:
Others thoughts? CarolMooreDC ( talk) 18:34, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
I am glad some appealled bogus charges of "possession of a machine gun", and won. Machine Guns (Automatic weapons of Class 3 destructive Devices, National Firearms Act of 1934) are Legal for public possession/use in the US. Some individual states restrict them.( Not Texas.) So long as you have the federal licensing, registration, taxes, waiting period, etc, in order, you can possess as many M/Gs as you want/can afford in TX. This should not have been recorded as a "charge" against Fatti; it should have been in quotes, like some one's "opinion".You should know by now that peace officers can throw all kinds of "charges" against anyone; only what is the Law will hold up in court, and that's what counts. 68.231.188.151 ( talk) 16:46, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
"Although ATF claimed that Koresh stayed inside the compound and could not be served with a warrant, Koresh was regularly seen jogging along the Waco roads and ate at local restaurants every week."
I'm going to remove the above sentence unless someone can provide verification. In fact the whole NPOV of this section seems highly suspect.
I'll also remove this: "Some believe the media hype influenced both the FBI and the ATF and the strategies they employed during the siege." for similar reasons, not to mention WP:AWW.
SolomonTrim ( talk) 16:50, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't think I have ever deleted something just because it was unsourced and I did not want to believe it, lacking any evidence to believe it to be false. I do know I have found things that seemed unclear and posted so in Talk, or did some research and edited to clarify the presentation or add a source. There is a WP guide line "Be bold". However.....
It is one thing to flag material as source needed or please clarify or mention the issue in Talk-- it is quite another to delete it with the comment "unsourced and dubious" with the comment in Talk that basicly it is dubious because you don't want to believe it. That someone would delete parts of an article and spell the name wrong as "Karesh" more than once says something about the quality of their edits.
That Koresh tried to talk to ATF seven months before the raid is documented in Congressional Hearings on Waco that were broadcast on CSPAN, which testimony has been repeated in so many books (and included the documentary "Waco: The Rules of Engagement") that it is not believable that anyone who has studied this subject could not find it believable.
From the 1995 Congressional hearings (including Waco ROE):
Stuart H. Wright, Editor, Armageddon at Waco: Why was a warrant sought in the first place since David Koresh, on learning that he was being investigated by the ATF, invited the agents on July 30th, 1992, through his gun dealer, Henry McMahon, to come to his residence and inspect his firearms?
and later when the former ATF Deputy Director Robert Sanders testified:
John B. Shadegg, US Congress, Arizona (R): They never once followed up on that offer. Never even tried to follow up on that offer . . . Robert Sanders, former ATF Deputy Director: I can't imagine any circumstances when I would not take up such an offer. It indicates a mind-set. Perhaps it was non willful. Perhaps what the ATF thought were violations of the law were really things that Mr. Koresh thought were legal. John B. Shadegg: It suggests that what they really wanted to do was conduct a raid, not make an arrest or conduct a search. Robert Sanders: In the opinion of the agents, you know, the planning for Waco and the manner in which it was done was done for the purpose of publicity.
Cato Institute, Policy Analysis No. 395 April 9, 2001, posted by Timothy Lynch, Cato Institute's Project on Criminal Justice, from the timeline:
o July 30, 1992: ATF agents interview Texas firearms dealer Henry McMahon about his business dealings with Branch Davidian leader David Koresh. During the interview, McMahon telephones Koresh. Koresh tells McMahon that if the ATF agents perceive any legal problem, they can come to Mt. Carmel and check his inventory and paperwork. ATF agents decline the invitation.[5] 5. Henry McMahon, Testimony, 1995 Congressional Hearings, part 1, pp. 162-63.
Seperately Henry McHahon and ATF Agent Davy Aguilera have stated repeatedly (a) Aguilera interviewed McMahon 30 July 1992 (b) on the phone Koresh asked to speak to Aguilera (c) McMahon told Aguilera that Koresh was wanting to talk to Aguilera and offering to let ATF come and inspect his guns and paperwork and (d) Aguilera refused to touch the telephone.
After the ATF refused the 30 July 1992 inspection offer, the federal siege of the Weaver family went down at Ruby Ridge ID 21-31 Aug 1992. The Ruby Ridge Siege is well documented and occurred after 30 July 1992. It was a nation-wide sensation for weeks. Koresh was very much aware of it and told dozens of people about it. David Thibodeau in his book on life with the Davidians recounted Koresh being upset by Ruby Ridge, and that Koresh connected the ATF refusal to talk to him with the treatment of the Weavers.
I have a thick envelope of 1993-1994 newspaper and magazine clippings as part of my research for an article I wrote for the local Mensa group newsletter on Waco in 1994: in the aftermath of the raid the ATF told the newspapers repeatedly that they had to raid because Koresh never left the compound and could not caught off the grounds be arrested. Also interviews with the townspeople recounted seeing Koresh in Waco during the period the ATF claimed he was holed-up and they could not serve an arrest warrant.
And if you think I am being snarky, you should have been around when I made my first sloppy edits. Naaman Brown ( talk) 03:35, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
There is a reason why Aguilera refused to do a compliance inspection. You have to read the Treasury Dept report on Waco. Aguilera did not go to McMahon's business to check for compliance with gun law regulations: although he presented himself to McMahon as a compliance inspector, that was just a ruse to gain access to McMahon's records of gun transactions with Koresh. Aguilera was there as a criminal investigator to build evidence of violations of gun laws to justify a search and siezure raid. When Koresh offered to let Aguilera check his guns and paperwork to show compliance with the gun laws (even though Ex-Deputy Director of BATF Robert Sanders testified he would have accepted this offer to do a compliance inspection 30 Jul 1992 and avoid doing a raid), Aguilera was an enforcement agent doing a criminal investigation even though he was posing as a compliance inspector. Aguilera's job was to build evidence to justify a search and siezure for a criminal case and present an affadavit for warrant to justify a raid. (In a similar manner in the Ruby Ridge case, ATF agents Herb Byerly and Steve Gunderson posed as Forest Service when they went to the Weaver cabin 12 Jun 1990 to attempt to recruit Randy Weaver as an informant. They were there as ATF enforcement agents, and even though they were driving a Forest Service truck, they were under no legal obligation to perform any Forest Service functions.) Even if the raid could have been avoided by opting for a compliance inspection, that was not Aguilera's job. Naaman Brown ( talk) 12:23, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
I second the above recommendation and I am going to go ahead and remove that material. There is no source, and it is definitely not material that should just be taken at face value without need of evidence. It reads like one of the many anti-government blogs on the subject. Did the ATF want to serve a search warrant on Karesh outside of the compound? I don't know why they would since a search warrant is typically served at the premises being searched. Did the ATF claim that they could not? Was Karesh seen jogging around and eating and was thus able to be served at any time? None of this is verified and every last point needs to be or else I am sorry but it's not believable.
The second part I am deleting is this:
"Despite being personally invited by Koresh as early as July 30, 1992 to inspect the Davidians' weapons and paperwork (eight months before the raid), and refusing, the ATF pursued a strongly confrontational policy. McClennan County Sheriff Harwell was convinced that if ATF had simply called Koresh, he would have shown at the county courthouse with his lawyer, Wayne Martin. Koresh told people that the Ruby Ridge Standoff of 21–31 August 1992 convinced him that the reason ATF refused his request was they were planning a raid regardless of what he did. Between July 1992 and Feb 1993, Koresh's sermons became increasingly apocalyptic."
Again, no source is given for any of it. It again is argumentitive, clearly POV pushing as the language demonstrates an obvious condemnation of the ATF (I'm not taking a side on that one, but neither should the article) and makes great pains to paint Koresh as a martyr. I don't know what happened to be honest and maybe everything said here did happen. Maybe he did invite the ATF to view the compound and maybe the Sherrif was convinced that if they had called Koresh, he would have shown up to the courthouse. I don't know because this passage gives me no reason to know outside of the fact that the editor is convinced that it's true. That's not good enough. It makes me think this was read on a blog and since that would obviously not be seen as a reliable source, the author simply inserted the material unsourced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdlund ( talk • contribs) 20:01, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
The source of the Sheriff's statements are a videotaped interview with the Sheriff made after the fact. This video is included as a segment in the "Waco - The rules of engagement ["WROL"]. WROL is WIDELY available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Borders, P2P, etc. The hearings held after the massacre also documented the fact that Koresh offered to allow ATF to inspect on more than one occasion. There are several excerpts of these hearings on WROL. Measl talk
Report of the Department of the Treasury on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms Investigation of Vernon Wayne Howell Also Known as David Koresh September 1993 Part 2 ("Analysis") - as posted in Wikisource: 2 Section Two: Analysis of the Tactical Planning Effort 2.3 The Decision to Pursue a Raid Option and Develop a Raid Plan . . . . Having understandably decided not to rely solely on Koresh's voluntary compliance with the warrants, ATF tactical planners initially focused their attention on arresting Koresh while he was away from the Compound, either by luring him off or by waiting until he had left it on his own accord. . . . . Had more attention been paid to determining whether Koresh ever left the Compound, ATF's planners might have learned that he did in fact leave the Compound on at least two occasions while the undercover house was in operation and on several other occasions in late 1992 and early January 1993. This is not to say that he could have been intercepted on any of these trips or that ATF could have devised a plan that would have succeeded in luring Koresh away. But, given the planners' reasonable expectation that arresting Koresh away from the Compound would vastly reduce the risks attending any law enforcement action at that location, far more effort should have been made in this area. And ATF's failure to make such an effort must be attributed to management's failure to establish an effective intelligence operation.
SO, the US Government Treasury Department Report already cited at Wikipedia Source reads like one of the many anti-government blogs on the subject. I am getting frustrated with people who do not read the cited sources on this subject but delete stuff they don't want to believe based on their own unsourced surmises and gut feelings.
If you think something needs a specific cited reference, the polite thing to do is post a source needed tag not delete it: read the instructions on editing Wikipedia. Often a cite at the end of a paragraph is the source for the paragraph. The idea that every sentence and or even phrase needs a reference is absurd. Naaman Brown ( talk) 11:59, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
None of the "popular culture" examples are properly cited. The Waco Siege wasn't the first religious group to have government troubles, so television shows and movies which appear similar may actually be based on a different event. Even if these pop-culture references bear an undeniably strong resemblance to the actual historical events, they are meaningless without a cited quote from the originators (otherwise it is Original Research). Regardless, none of these references help us understand either the historical account nor the public's perception of these events. ∅BRIT 21:01, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
That the source of the fire is contested should be an uncontested fact about this incident.
The origin of the fire at Waco 19 Apr 1993 is not neatly settled. Davidian survivors David Thibodeau, Derek Lovelock and Clive Doyle in Congressional testimony and interviews denied any plan by Davidians to start a fire; the descriptions by Thibodeau and Doyle describe the fires as unknown origin, could be accidental, or deliberate by the Davidians or the FBI. The FBI had turned off the electricity the first week of the siege. For weeks, the Davidians were using Coleman lanterns for lighting; the Davidians' discussions at 7:00 am the morning of 19 Apr 1993 of how much fuel was available and how it was distributed had an innocent explanation; the fact that the Davidian's bought diesel fuel can be explained by the fact they were running a ranch. You drive tanks through a building lighted and heated with lanterns and stoves that run off gasoline or fuel oil and the potential for accidental fire should be obvious. Of course to beat tort suits the government is going to declare the Davidians guilty case closed.
Appendix G of the Treasury Dept Waco Report, written by the Historian of the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, Dr. Frederick S. Calhoun, puts the siege on the Branch Davidians at Waco in the context of the sieges on the Symbionese Liberation Army (SLA) at Los Angeles, Gordon Kahl at Smithville Arkansas, Bob Mathews at Whideby Island, and the Covenent Sword and Arm of the Lord (CSA) in Arkansas (US Government Printing Office: 1993-358-365). All these sieges but the CSA siege ended in FBI tear gas attacks followed by fire. At Waco, the Texas Rangers found metallic 40mm grenades of the type fired from M79 military grenade launchers: M651 tear gas grenades and flash bang grenades by NICO Pyrotechnik; the manufacturers told the Texas Rangers these incendiary devices had been sold to the FBI. It is amazing the number of "cults" that have ended sieges with suicide by fire after a tear gas attack: MOVE, SLA, Posse Comitatus, the Order, the Branch Davidians. The only major "cult" siege listed by Calhoun that did not end in suicide by fire after a gas attack was CSA. In the context of discussing the Waco Siege on page 498 of his biography "My Life" (Vintage Books, 2005), Bill Clinton claims that as Gov. of Arkansas in 1985, he called off the planned FBI raid on the CSA and insisted on a negotiated surrender no matter how long it might take. Clinton claimed he regreted not following his gut instinct to handle the Davidians like the CSA. Since Waco the CIRG has handled political/religious sieges like the CSA siege was handled: negotiate til hell freezes over. Naaman Brown ( talk) 15:18, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
Capitalisation in this article is a mess, especially in the information box. I cleaned up a little in the article, but it needs to be thoroughly line edited.
-- UnicornTapestry ( talk) 16:32, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Couple people keep removing "then-Davidian leader Vernon Wayne Howell, better known as David Koresh." Please explain the rationale for deleting it, especially when it is needed to identify him in a later quote from a government document? His name is also part of the title of the Treasury Dept report. CarolMooreDC ( talk) 21:27, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Koresh did not "change his name" in the classic sense of going into a court and actually changing it. He used the alias, while his legal name remained Howell. It is perfectly legal to go by alias provided the alias is not being used as a means to defraud, and many thousands of actors, comedians, etc., do it every hour. Measl talk
There are many articles stating that the only 4 atf agents were former bodyguards for Bill Clinton when he was governor and campaigning. Also their autopsies showed that all were executed during the initial raid. Why isn't this in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.61.3.207 ( talk) 16:25, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
comment (click "edit" above to see it) |
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The previous message was not relevant and appears to be misplaced here. I have hidden it. Chaosdruid ( talk) 19:05, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
The section Accusations claims that:
Now, this is mystifying. Was the deprogrammer Rick Ross among the koreshians when they were besieged? (Then: how did he get in?) Or did he speak from outside through walls or by telepathy or by maybe a loudspeaker? Or did he speak to outsiders or to koreshians that weren't besieged? In that case, what was the meaning with such a statement? Rursus dixit. ( mbork3!) 19:48, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
The National Firearms Museum in Northern Virginia has a heavily charred M82 , a semi-automatic .50 BMG caliber anti-material rifle, that is listed as being recovered from the Waco compound... isn't this proof positive that they possessed such weapons? Or, for the conspiracy minded, that the National Firearms Museum are a bunch of liars? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.155.185.64 ( talk) 03:51, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
The ATF affidavit for search warrant to justify the raid mentions the claims that the Davidians had (legally) purchased two .50 caliber rifles; however, ATF agent David Aguilera affirmed to the federal magistrate the witnesses were wrong, he knew they were (illegal) .51 British Boys antitank guns. No .51 Boys antitank guns were found, but several federal inventories of Davidian evidence do not mention the .50 rifles bought legally by the Davidians either. Nothing feeds conspiracy theories better than the government misrepresenting evidence. Instead of denouncing the "conspiracy minded" and thowing about accusations, why not post some verifiable, reliably sourced documentation of the National Firearms Museum exhibit? Naaman Brown ( talk) 11:42, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Hi all
I am a neutral party and editing the article in compliance with Wiki guidelines to try and restore NPOV as well as factual accuracy.
I appreciate there may be a lot of discussion forthcoming in trying to restore the article to a level it deserves on such a major event.
I have started by tidying the first few sections and the infobox.
I have moved the details of "equipment" from the info box to the relevant section in the article body. The info box was difficult to read and made the page extremely untidy. I trust that opinion will be that it is better in the section than in the box. If I am worng in that assumption I am sure you will let me know :¬)
thanks Chaosdruid ( talk) 20:14, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
The article states "An ATF agent was killed as he approached the door.". This statement is not correct. One agent on the "door team" was wounded (Rodriguez, wound to his finger I believe) but none killed. I suggest a source for this statement should be provided or the sentence deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.203.226.130 ( talk) 13:14, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
I have removed the false statement from the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.203.224.113 ( talk) 11:24, 17 March 2010 (UTC)