This is an
archive of past discussions for the period June 2006 to December 2006. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
I think it's important that the article be written so that the truth about the siege is told. However it is important that citations are used. Not citations from third party conjecture but citations from primary sources like eyewitness interviews, news accounts and transcripts, and original government documents such as warrants affidavits and reports. Editors can use factual inaccuracies in government documents provided citations, including a link to the original source document as well as evidence of the stated error, are used. For instance my first edit to the document explained why the use of National Guard helicopters was illegal and I provided links including an Attorney's website, the wikipedia article on Posse Comitatus, and a United States Military fact card explaining the law (Used to explain the law to service men and women). I plan on revising the article fruther presenting evidence of how the FBI and ATF violated the law and botched the raid killing innocent women and children, but I do intend to cite my sources and research any claimed thoroughly before I save such edits, as well as goverment documents refuting any such findings. I welcome challenges to my research and findings as I think you will find that reliable and verifiable evidence that the ATF and FBI acted outside statutes and the Constitution and as a result the lives of innocent adults and children were lost.
First of all, you need to sign your comments, so we know who to play for a biased article. You come in on the pretense that you will be showing how the FBI broke the law, something which you could in no way ever really prove. You sound very self-righteous and now that you have found a few quotes and "an attorney's website" you think you have all the answers. You are blatantly biased and have no place editing in the wikipedia. Stop Me Now! 00:48, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
If we only let unbiased users edit this would be an extremeley empty website. Everyones biased. It's a sad fact of life.
Try asking someone who was actually there and not an outsider. I was one of the children who was taken away and placed in a home. The revisionist historians placing the Waco incident blame solely on the government is disgusting. If you knew anything about the way that **** Koresh operated. If you knew how he EMPLOYED CLASSIC CULT TACTICS. Ifsome of you conspiracy theory, tinfoil hat wearing people realized that the rest of my life is ruined and I WILL NEVER BE NORMAL. Then you would stop spouting off and sympathizing with CULT LEADERS. Some of you are always eager to blame the government for every little thing. Just because you sit comfortably from your home bedroom realize this is real life and hurt and killed many brainwashed, mentally messed up people!
I don't believe you. I have read a great deal of testimony by eye witnesses to various events and the way in which you typed your message (grammar, words, etc.) suggests to me that you were not one of the people at Waco. At least, not one of the people inside.
I really Don't see how people do sympathise with the davidians. The cult did follow a leader who raped kids old enough to be in middle school. Seriously, 12 years old is like 6th or 7th grade. But that isn't to say the BATF did a good job. Both parties really messed this event up. But that's my POV, and you all have yours. None of these arguments will make it into the article. Dboyz-x.etown 01:30, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
People here need to calm down. I mean first of all the originial post really has no place here. I am NOT agreeing with the people who keep just repeating "there was no child abuse", becuase personally my opinion is that that is complete bullshit fed to morons who can't think for themselves. However, the cost of having an encyclopedia like this is that all personal point of views must be left out of editing. In a situation like this, all possibly scenarios must be considered, no matter how much of one opinion is total BS. Oh yeah, and would you people please sign you comments. Stop Me Now! 00:35, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
You are lying through your teeth. We need evidence to back up these upsubstantated claims of yours. What exactly were these "classic cult tactics?."
Gothmog26
06:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Speculation, in the form of outrage, is speculation none the less. Ironicly, this is the same tactic that Reno used. If you want to explore this it would be best to find who told Reno about the abuse and fed her those classic lines.
-Atomical
The main point of contention I have with the whole raid is even if the government's assertions of child abuse were true, setting in motion the events that led to the deaths of all said children seems to me a stenge way to save them. The documentary film WAco:The Rules of Engagement shows government agents firing into the building as it was burning to the ground. What an odd way to try to save children.
You claim that the child abuse claim is false. Give a source about that, especially since you seem to have strong evidence. Otherwise, that whole sentence should be removed.
I agree we need references, but factually disputed is a bit strong. Unless glaring inaccuracies of date and time are quoted, then we're talking POV and NPOV, not facts. Daemon8666 21:06, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed the 3rd party link to a copy of the Cato Institute article:
And replaced it with a link to the actual source article
The style of the link I added might benefit from better formatting but it seemed linking to the original article might be a more ideal source and hyperlink. Mr Christopher 05:15, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I removed this However, the Davidians knew that the people outside were federal officers with warrants, and used deadly force against the agents to prevent execution of the warrants
It is a wild, fantastic claim that defies logic and lacks any support. This article seems to have a surplus of similar unsupported assertions. Mr Christopher 01:14, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
If the article is biased at all, it is in favor of the Davidians. It fails to realize that the Davidians WERE committing crimes and that they did use lethal force. People need to start writing from a netral standpoint. Stop Me Now! 00:02, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
This page is contentious enough without people inserting POV essays from any viewpoint. There is a mountain of reputable published material from a wide variety of viewpoints. If you want to cite from a book, cite the page numbers. Citing from speculative documentary films is dubious at best. There are a number of highly critical published works that can be cited without adding allegations from conspiracist videos.-- Cberlet 21:00, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
So I see the great defender of civil liberties, critic of government repression, and former head of the NLG Civil Liberties Committee keeps reverting back to the dehumanizing term "compound", thereby promoting the POV of the FBI and BATF. What the FUCK? This is your last warning. "Compound" is a POV term and will not be used in this article. 70.108.57.95 02:24, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Please refrain from personal attacks.-- Cberlet 03:57, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't pretend to know anything more about the subject than I saw on a TV special, but this particular statement: After punching a hole through a wall, the ATF proceeded to saturate the complex with flammable gas and ignited it in the first paragraphseems to conflict directly with both the rest of this article and the main Branch Davidian article. This seems to be a pretty divisive subject, so I didn't want to just edit it, but one of you might want to. 64.121.55.220 00:32, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Some years back I became very interested in what happened at Waco and befriended Amy Somers, the co-producer of the academy award nominated documentary "Waco: Rules of Engagement." I sponsored its showing at a local theater because I was very concerned about FBI misconduct, especially the alleged shooting of those who were trying to flee the fire, as indicated by FLIR footage.
I've read a lot of what "Waco Kid" has said on this and related pages. You seem quite knowledgeable about matters associated with Waco. If you have seen the "Waco: Rules of Engagement" documentary, I would be interested in knowing what your current opinion is of the validity of its allegations. I talked to Amy a couple of weeks ago; she still stands by the film. Thanks. Founders4 06:59, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I keep hearing WACo or the Seige in Waco - the Tragedy in Waco, but the fact of the matter is that none of this happend in WACO, the Branch Davidians were located 10 miles outside of Waco, Waco just happend to be the only close larger city, so that the press and feds could have hotels, it was the press and/or the Feds who mis named all of this "Waco" when Waco had little to do with it, I had never even heard of the Branch Davidians before that wet cold morning in Feb.
The FBI did not fire on those attempting to flee. Stop Me Now! 00:03, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Do you have any evidence for this claim Stop Me Now? Gothmog26 07:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
OK, I just checked into this article today, after watching "Waco: Rules of Engagement". I see the NPOV tag, but I do not see a plan on this talk page of how to remove it. We cannot leave a page in NPOV limbo forever. The original tagger needs to outline what they wish to see corrected (either factually, with reputable sources, or in wording), or agreeing parties must outline specifics as to what needs to be removed or edited to bring the article into compliance. If that does not happen in about 72 hours (3 days), I'll remove the NPOV tag. Note that I am not objecting to the presence of the tag, per se, but the lack of substantive Neutrality objections in reference to the tag.
There are many remedies for neutrality problems. We can remove text, to be redacted or removed permanently, we can cite sources for statements, we can reword sections to conform with the understanding that citations reference, etc. Remember, it is not enough to just say "It's a Fact!" to justify inclusion here (see WP:NOR) - it is our job to reflect the state of knowledge provided by other reputable and verifiable sources. Thanks. -- NightMonkey 05:58, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
{{POV}}
at the top of the disputed article, then explain your reasons on the talk page of the disputed article. To specify the section of the talk page, use {{POV|talk page section name}}
at the top of the disputed article." What apparently did not happen is the "explain your reasons" part. I'm not against adding the {{NPOV-check}}
tag, or even the {{NPOV}}
tag, but there have to be defined reasons. I want to encourage movement towards making this article better. --
NightMonkey
06:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)I tend to dislike "Cultural references" and "Trivia" sections; they strike me as rather "unencyclopedic," tangential to the subject, and often arbitrary, as they typically single out a handful of movies or songs for mention, when vast numbers of references exist. The just-created section, citing a single example from the show "24", is a perfect illustration of why I think they're a bad idea.
I don't watch the show and I haven't seen the episode, but from the description, a passing remark is made about "another Waco." On this slim basis, a bullet entry with a half-dozen wikilinks is generated. This is ridiculous. I can think of shows, like "Walker, Texas Ranger" and "X-Files," where an entire episode has been inspired by the Waco situation. If we were to list every show where an offhand remark is made about "another Waco," it would be a very long list indeed.
I also don't see why we need such a section when this article currently features little discussion of Waco's role in spurring the rise of the militia and Patriot movements, its use by proponents of gun rights and gun control and in other political debates, its possible influence on the 1994 Republican sweep, and other topics I would find more germane.
However, rather than immediately deleting this section, I'm going to solicit feedback. I see two courses. First, to go ahead and nuke the section. The second would be to get serious, and to add many more movies, books, and songs with references to Waco. In that case, I would still want to delete the "24" entry in favor of shows with a stronger claim than some minor allusion to Waco. However, those in favor of door number two could also argue for what criteria for inclusion they want to use.
I'll hold off or at least a few days to give other editors a chance to weigh in. Discuss now, or it dies! -- WacoKid 06:29, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I'll add that another reason I don't like Trivia sections is that they get used by fans to squeeze in some movie they like, or some band's song, which is what I think is happening here. This also often results in "original research" inferences, about what a song's lyrics "mean" or are "about," for example. -- WacoKid 07:53, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I thought it prudent to add the whole Postal 2 Waco satire to the cultural refrences. - The Kinslayer
It appears that 24.148.106.65 removed the entire section of the prelude. I think this is entirely too much for an anonymous editor and will put it back. If you want to work on a NPOV or update/cite facts please do, but wholesale deletion is not a solution. Please discuss here. Rearden9 16:09, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
The prelude needs to be removed. It's a nothing but a dumping ground for BS. The prelude to the siege was when some Davidians were able to rebuke the ATF assault.
I think the prelude is important but also think that it needs cites. Also, I've read that the BATF was under pressure due to upcoming budget hearings and the debacle at Ruby Ridge. Anybody? ChristinaDunigan 21:01, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I do not understand exactly why the NPOV tag was removed; I have included the disputed article tag because the problems here extend beyond simple NPOV. Many statements that need to be sourced are not, the tone is not what is expected of an encyclopedia, and the article appears to contradict itself at times. Lots of work is needed.
The problem with using ATF in this article is that it causes several problems with subject/predicate agreement at various points in the article. The name of the agency is the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, not Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. Following standard acronym construction for other federal agencies (the Federal Bureau of Investigation, for example, becomes the FBI), the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the BATF. Founders4 08:24, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
"The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF or BATF or BATFE) is a federal agency within the United States Department of Justice."
BATF was the usual term at the time of the Waco event, before which the agency was rather obscure in the eyes of the public. Those federal enforcement agencies with acronyms longer than three letters crave to be known by three only, as a sign that they've joined the big leagues up there with FBI and CIA. As a writer, I would correspondingly resist this propaganda until the three-letter usage becomes official or otherwise unavoidable.-- Paul Emmons 23:24, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I keep hearing WACO or the Seige in Waco - the Tragedy in Waco, but the fact of the matter is that none of this happend in WACO, the Branch Davidians were located 10 miles outside of Waco, Waco just happend to be the only close larger city, so that the press and feds could have hotels, it was the press and/or the Feds who mis named all of this "Waco" when Waco had little to do with it, I had never even heard of the Branch Davidians before that cold wet Sunday morning in Feb.
Any reason not to remove the references to Linda Thompson?
The article is very long as it is, and two paragraphs about allegations that have apparently been debunked seems excessive. If her allegations are untrue, I don't see the point in including them. Thanks.
The Linda Thompson video is part of the history of events following the '93 Waco standoff. In particular, it is known to have influenced Timothy McVeigh in his decision to initiate the bombing of the Murrah Building on April 19, 1995. Other groups were radicalized as a result of Thompson's allegations, since her charges were not immediately known to be false. I think the section, as written, is not very good; it should be rewritten and included. Founders4 05:16, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was no move. -- tariqabjotu 00:33, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Waco Siege → Branch Davidian confrontation with BATF (1993) – 1)"Siege" is a loaded term (violates WP:NPOV; 2) The city itself was not under siege, as the Branch Davidian compound was several miles outside the city limits Bongolese 20:38, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
Add any additional comments
Still think it's a bad idea Bongolese. Founders4 21:23, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
If I recall correctly from "Waco: Rules of Engagement" the initial gunfire was of federal agents shooting the Davidian's dog and her puppies in a kennel outside the home. This certainly would explain conflicting claims of who started the firefight. The Davidians, hearing the shots that killed the dogs, would almost certainly assume that the home, not the kennel, was the target and would return fire. The agents, knowing that the gunfire was aimed at the kennel and not at the house, would interpret the Davidians' answering gunfire as an act of aggression rather than of defense. ChristinaDunigan 20:58, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
The initial source of the gunfire is still not known to this day. Probably will never be known.-- Nytemunkey 01:54, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Minor edit. Automatic weapons are not illegal in Texas. While Section 46.05 of Texas law says machine guns are illegal, checking section 46.05 (c) reads "(c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the National Firearms Act, as amended.", which you'd have to be on the right side of to avoid federal prosecution. Granted, the Branch Dividian's guns were probably not federally registered, therefore were illegal under state and federal law. It's splitting hairs, but it's an important hair.Texas actually has the highest number of automatic weapons in civillian hands of any other state. (Citation: http://www.fff.org/comment/com0412g.asp) Nitrogen76 16:16, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
This article needs to be heavily edited. Currently it is written not in an NPOV manner but in an almost unreadable mess of claims and counterclaims with few attributions or sources. In other words it is POV from both sides simultaneaously. Rmhermen 16:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
This raid, the one @ Ruby Ridge has been claimed as igniting the creation of the Militia Movement in the U.S. I've seen some tapes on TV stating that, "The SATANIC U.N. is comming to take out the U.S. Are YOU ready for Martial Law ?!", and Bumper stickers saying that "Is YOUR Church BATF Approved ?!" Martial Law 17:54, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Allegations such as those are unfairly made and just plain stupid, but what is the revelance of this to this article? Stop Me Now! 01:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
First of all let me state this: I am a research assistant who works on the Oklahoma City Bombing. While I can't be sure (due to lack of research) that Waco created the milita movement, I can be sure that it enflamed the militias to a considerable degree. Consider this from the Houston Chronicle:
Early on Saturday, some Koresh sympathizers gathered north of the compound and talked about trying to enter it by crossing a pasture.
But as they began to mobilize, 20 armed agents took positions to block their path. A military helicopter landed in the field as a further warning.
The protesters backed down. One man, bellowing through a bullhorn, said, "How many people are you willing to shoot if we cross the fence? Are there any more churches on the hit list?'(April 4, 1993 Houston Chronicle)
Later, 15 people who are affiliated with the “Unorganized Militia of the United States” gathered in a field with unloaded guns and released this statement:
"We are letting the government know we are not going to stand for lawless government anymore, Thompson said.(April 4, 1993 Houston Chronicle)
-Atomical
Here's an idea: use that program that was aired on the Discovery Channel on September the 16th for points of reference. I have never seen a better documentary than this one that covers the event not only in colossal detail, but it includes both sides of the story to show no bias. mikecucuk 20:30, September 19 September 2006, (UTC)
I removed the part about the witness who saw a girl leaving David's apartment being legally blind. There was no proof, and if he was blind, they wouldn't of talked to him, and he wouldn't of claimed seeing anything. This thing really needs protection. Too many half-assed conspiracy theorists are editing in bullshit. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.130.138.12 ( talk)
This is an
archive of past discussions for the period June 2006 to December 2006. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
I think it's important that the article be written so that the truth about the siege is told. However it is important that citations are used. Not citations from third party conjecture but citations from primary sources like eyewitness interviews, news accounts and transcripts, and original government documents such as warrants affidavits and reports. Editors can use factual inaccuracies in government documents provided citations, including a link to the original source document as well as evidence of the stated error, are used. For instance my first edit to the document explained why the use of National Guard helicopters was illegal and I provided links including an Attorney's website, the wikipedia article on Posse Comitatus, and a United States Military fact card explaining the law (Used to explain the law to service men and women). I plan on revising the article fruther presenting evidence of how the FBI and ATF violated the law and botched the raid killing innocent women and children, but I do intend to cite my sources and research any claimed thoroughly before I save such edits, as well as goverment documents refuting any such findings. I welcome challenges to my research and findings as I think you will find that reliable and verifiable evidence that the ATF and FBI acted outside statutes and the Constitution and as a result the lives of innocent adults and children were lost.
First of all, you need to sign your comments, so we know who to play for a biased article. You come in on the pretense that you will be showing how the FBI broke the law, something which you could in no way ever really prove. You sound very self-righteous and now that you have found a few quotes and "an attorney's website" you think you have all the answers. You are blatantly biased and have no place editing in the wikipedia. Stop Me Now! 00:48, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
If we only let unbiased users edit this would be an extremeley empty website. Everyones biased. It's a sad fact of life.
Try asking someone who was actually there and not an outsider. I was one of the children who was taken away and placed in a home. The revisionist historians placing the Waco incident blame solely on the government is disgusting. If you knew anything about the way that **** Koresh operated. If you knew how he EMPLOYED CLASSIC CULT TACTICS. Ifsome of you conspiracy theory, tinfoil hat wearing people realized that the rest of my life is ruined and I WILL NEVER BE NORMAL. Then you would stop spouting off and sympathizing with CULT LEADERS. Some of you are always eager to blame the government for every little thing. Just because you sit comfortably from your home bedroom realize this is real life and hurt and killed many brainwashed, mentally messed up people!
I don't believe you. I have read a great deal of testimony by eye witnesses to various events and the way in which you typed your message (grammar, words, etc.) suggests to me that you were not one of the people at Waco. At least, not one of the people inside.
I really Don't see how people do sympathise with the davidians. The cult did follow a leader who raped kids old enough to be in middle school. Seriously, 12 years old is like 6th or 7th grade. But that isn't to say the BATF did a good job. Both parties really messed this event up. But that's my POV, and you all have yours. None of these arguments will make it into the article. Dboyz-x.etown 01:30, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
People here need to calm down. I mean first of all the originial post really has no place here. I am NOT agreeing with the people who keep just repeating "there was no child abuse", becuase personally my opinion is that that is complete bullshit fed to morons who can't think for themselves. However, the cost of having an encyclopedia like this is that all personal point of views must be left out of editing. In a situation like this, all possibly scenarios must be considered, no matter how much of one opinion is total BS. Oh yeah, and would you people please sign you comments. Stop Me Now! 00:35, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
You are lying through your teeth. We need evidence to back up these upsubstantated claims of yours. What exactly were these "classic cult tactics?."
Gothmog26
06:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Speculation, in the form of outrage, is speculation none the less. Ironicly, this is the same tactic that Reno used. If you want to explore this it would be best to find who told Reno about the abuse and fed her those classic lines.
-Atomical
The main point of contention I have with the whole raid is even if the government's assertions of child abuse were true, setting in motion the events that led to the deaths of all said children seems to me a stenge way to save them. The documentary film WAco:The Rules of Engagement shows government agents firing into the building as it was burning to the ground. What an odd way to try to save children.
You claim that the child abuse claim is false. Give a source about that, especially since you seem to have strong evidence. Otherwise, that whole sentence should be removed.
I agree we need references, but factually disputed is a bit strong. Unless glaring inaccuracies of date and time are quoted, then we're talking POV and NPOV, not facts. Daemon8666 21:06, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed the 3rd party link to a copy of the Cato Institute article:
And replaced it with a link to the actual source article
The style of the link I added might benefit from better formatting but it seemed linking to the original article might be a more ideal source and hyperlink. Mr Christopher 05:15, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I removed this However, the Davidians knew that the people outside were federal officers with warrants, and used deadly force against the agents to prevent execution of the warrants
It is a wild, fantastic claim that defies logic and lacks any support. This article seems to have a surplus of similar unsupported assertions. Mr Christopher 01:14, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
If the article is biased at all, it is in favor of the Davidians. It fails to realize that the Davidians WERE committing crimes and that they did use lethal force. People need to start writing from a netral standpoint. Stop Me Now! 00:02, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
This page is contentious enough without people inserting POV essays from any viewpoint. There is a mountain of reputable published material from a wide variety of viewpoints. If you want to cite from a book, cite the page numbers. Citing from speculative documentary films is dubious at best. There are a number of highly critical published works that can be cited without adding allegations from conspiracist videos.-- Cberlet 21:00, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
So I see the great defender of civil liberties, critic of government repression, and former head of the NLG Civil Liberties Committee keeps reverting back to the dehumanizing term "compound", thereby promoting the POV of the FBI and BATF. What the FUCK? This is your last warning. "Compound" is a POV term and will not be used in this article. 70.108.57.95 02:24, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Please refrain from personal attacks.-- Cberlet 03:57, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't pretend to know anything more about the subject than I saw on a TV special, but this particular statement: After punching a hole through a wall, the ATF proceeded to saturate the complex with flammable gas and ignited it in the first paragraphseems to conflict directly with both the rest of this article and the main Branch Davidian article. This seems to be a pretty divisive subject, so I didn't want to just edit it, but one of you might want to. 64.121.55.220 00:32, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Some years back I became very interested in what happened at Waco and befriended Amy Somers, the co-producer of the academy award nominated documentary "Waco: Rules of Engagement." I sponsored its showing at a local theater because I was very concerned about FBI misconduct, especially the alleged shooting of those who were trying to flee the fire, as indicated by FLIR footage.
I've read a lot of what "Waco Kid" has said on this and related pages. You seem quite knowledgeable about matters associated with Waco. If you have seen the "Waco: Rules of Engagement" documentary, I would be interested in knowing what your current opinion is of the validity of its allegations. I talked to Amy a couple of weeks ago; she still stands by the film. Thanks. Founders4 06:59, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I keep hearing WACo or the Seige in Waco - the Tragedy in Waco, but the fact of the matter is that none of this happend in WACO, the Branch Davidians were located 10 miles outside of Waco, Waco just happend to be the only close larger city, so that the press and feds could have hotels, it was the press and/or the Feds who mis named all of this "Waco" when Waco had little to do with it, I had never even heard of the Branch Davidians before that wet cold morning in Feb.
The FBI did not fire on those attempting to flee. Stop Me Now! 00:03, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Do you have any evidence for this claim Stop Me Now? Gothmog26 07:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
OK, I just checked into this article today, after watching "Waco: Rules of Engagement". I see the NPOV tag, but I do not see a plan on this talk page of how to remove it. We cannot leave a page in NPOV limbo forever. The original tagger needs to outline what they wish to see corrected (either factually, with reputable sources, or in wording), or agreeing parties must outline specifics as to what needs to be removed or edited to bring the article into compliance. If that does not happen in about 72 hours (3 days), I'll remove the NPOV tag. Note that I am not objecting to the presence of the tag, per se, but the lack of substantive Neutrality objections in reference to the tag.
There are many remedies for neutrality problems. We can remove text, to be redacted or removed permanently, we can cite sources for statements, we can reword sections to conform with the understanding that citations reference, etc. Remember, it is not enough to just say "It's a Fact!" to justify inclusion here (see WP:NOR) - it is our job to reflect the state of knowledge provided by other reputable and verifiable sources. Thanks. -- NightMonkey 05:58, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
{{POV}}
at the top of the disputed article, then explain your reasons on the talk page of the disputed article. To specify the section of the talk page, use {{POV|talk page section name}}
at the top of the disputed article." What apparently did not happen is the "explain your reasons" part. I'm not against adding the {{NPOV-check}}
tag, or even the {{NPOV}}
tag, but there have to be defined reasons. I want to encourage movement towards making this article better. --
NightMonkey
06:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)I tend to dislike "Cultural references" and "Trivia" sections; they strike me as rather "unencyclopedic," tangential to the subject, and often arbitrary, as they typically single out a handful of movies or songs for mention, when vast numbers of references exist. The just-created section, citing a single example from the show "24", is a perfect illustration of why I think they're a bad idea.
I don't watch the show and I haven't seen the episode, but from the description, a passing remark is made about "another Waco." On this slim basis, a bullet entry with a half-dozen wikilinks is generated. This is ridiculous. I can think of shows, like "Walker, Texas Ranger" and "X-Files," where an entire episode has been inspired by the Waco situation. If we were to list every show where an offhand remark is made about "another Waco," it would be a very long list indeed.
I also don't see why we need such a section when this article currently features little discussion of Waco's role in spurring the rise of the militia and Patriot movements, its use by proponents of gun rights and gun control and in other political debates, its possible influence on the 1994 Republican sweep, and other topics I would find more germane.
However, rather than immediately deleting this section, I'm going to solicit feedback. I see two courses. First, to go ahead and nuke the section. The second would be to get serious, and to add many more movies, books, and songs with references to Waco. In that case, I would still want to delete the "24" entry in favor of shows with a stronger claim than some minor allusion to Waco. However, those in favor of door number two could also argue for what criteria for inclusion they want to use.
I'll hold off or at least a few days to give other editors a chance to weigh in. Discuss now, or it dies! -- WacoKid 06:29, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I'll add that another reason I don't like Trivia sections is that they get used by fans to squeeze in some movie they like, or some band's song, which is what I think is happening here. This also often results in "original research" inferences, about what a song's lyrics "mean" or are "about," for example. -- WacoKid 07:53, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I thought it prudent to add the whole Postal 2 Waco satire to the cultural refrences. - The Kinslayer
It appears that 24.148.106.65 removed the entire section of the prelude. I think this is entirely too much for an anonymous editor and will put it back. If you want to work on a NPOV or update/cite facts please do, but wholesale deletion is not a solution. Please discuss here. Rearden9 16:09, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
The prelude needs to be removed. It's a nothing but a dumping ground for BS. The prelude to the siege was when some Davidians were able to rebuke the ATF assault.
I think the prelude is important but also think that it needs cites. Also, I've read that the BATF was under pressure due to upcoming budget hearings and the debacle at Ruby Ridge. Anybody? ChristinaDunigan 21:01, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I do not understand exactly why the NPOV tag was removed; I have included the disputed article tag because the problems here extend beyond simple NPOV. Many statements that need to be sourced are not, the tone is not what is expected of an encyclopedia, and the article appears to contradict itself at times. Lots of work is needed.
The problem with using ATF in this article is that it causes several problems with subject/predicate agreement at various points in the article. The name of the agency is the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, not Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. Following standard acronym construction for other federal agencies (the Federal Bureau of Investigation, for example, becomes the FBI), the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the BATF. Founders4 08:24, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
"The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF or BATF or BATFE) is a federal agency within the United States Department of Justice."
BATF was the usual term at the time of the Waco event, before which the agency was rather obscure in the eyes of the public. Those federal enforcement agencies with acronyms longer than three letters crave to be known by three only, as a sign that they've joined the big leagues up there with FBI and CIA. As a writer, I would correspondingly resist this propaganda until the three-letter usage becomes official or otherwise unavoidable.-- Paul Emmons 23:24, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I keep hearing WACO or the Seige in Waco - the Tragedy in Waco, but the fact of the matter is that none of this happend in WACO, the Branch Davidians were located 10 miles outside of Waco, Waco just happend to be the only close larger city, so that the press and feds could have hotels, it was the press and/or the Feds who mis named all of this "Waco" when Waco had little to do with it, I had never even heard of the Branch Davidians before that cold wet Sunday morning in Feb.
Any reason not to remove the references to Linda Thompson?
The article is very long as it is, and two paragraphs about allegations that have apparently been debunked seems excessive. If her allegations are untrue, I don't see the point in including them. Thanks.
The Linda Thompson video is part of the history of events following the '93 Waco standoff. In particular, it is known to have influenced Timothy McVeigh in his decision to initiate the bombing of the Murrah Building on April 19, 1995. Other groups were radicalized as a result of Thompson's allegations, since her charges were not immediately known to be false. I think the section, as written, is not very good; it should be rewritten and included. Founders4 05:16, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was no move. -- tariqabjotu 00:33, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Waco Siege → Branch Davidian confrontation with BATF (1993) – 1)"Siege" is a loaded term (violates WP:NPOV; 2) The city itself was not under siege, as the Branch Davidian compound was several miles outside the city limits Bongolese 20:38, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
Add any additional comments
Still think it's a bad idea Bongolese. Founders4 21:23, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
If I recall correctly from "Waco: Rules of Engagement" the initial gunfire was of federal agents shooting the Davidian's dog and her puppies in a kennel outside the home. This certainly would explain conflicting claims of who started the firefight. The Davidians, hearing the shots that killed the dogs, would almost certainly assume that the home, not the kennel, was the target and would return fire. The agents, knowing that the gunfire was aimed at the kennel and not at the house, would interpret the Davidians' answering gunfire as an act of aggression rather than of defense. ChristinaDunigan 20:58, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
The initial source of the gunfire is still not known to this day. Probably will never be known.-- Nytemunkey 01:54, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Minor edit. Automatic weapons are not illegal in Texas. While Section 46.05 of Texas law says machine guns are illegal, checking section 46.05 (c) reads "(c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the National Firearms Act, as amended.", which you'd have to be on the right side of to avoid federal prosecution. Granted, the Branch Dividian's guns were probably not federally registered, therefore were illegal under state and federal law. It's splitting hairs, but it's an important hair.Texas actually has the highest number of automatic weapons in civillian hands of any other state. (Citation: http://www.fff.org/comment/com0412g.asp) Nitrogen76 16:16, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
This article needs to be heavily edited. Currently it is written not in an NPOV manner but in an almost unreadable mess of claims and counterclaims with few attributions or sources. In other words it is POV from both sides simultaneaously. Rmhermen 16:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
This raid, the one @ Ruby Ridge has been claimed as igniting the creation of the Militia Movement in the U.S. I've seen some tapes on TV stating that, "The SATANIC U.N. is comming to take out the U.S. Are YOU ready for Martial Law ?!", and Bumper stickers saying that "Is YOUR Church BATF Approved ?!" Martial Law 17:54, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Allegations such as those are unfairly made and just plain stupid, but what is the revelance of this to this article? Stop Me Now! 01:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
First of all let me state this: I am a research assistant who works on the Oklahoma City Bombing. While I can't be sure (due to lack of research) that Waco created the milita movement, I can be sure that it enflamed the militias to a considerable degree. Consider this from the Houston Chronicle:
Early on Saturday, some Koresh sympathizers gathered north of the compound and talked about trying to enter it by crossing a pasture.
But as they began to mobilize, 20 armed agents took positions to block their path. A military helicopter landed in the field as a further warning.
The protesters backed down. One man, bellowing through a bullhorn, said, "How many people are you willing to shoot if we cross the fence? Are there any more churches on the hit list?'(April 4, 1993 Houston Chronicle)
Later, 15 people who are affiliated with the “Unorganized Militia of the United States” gathered in a field with unloaded guns and released this statement:
"We are letting the government know we are not going to stand for lawless government anymore, Thompson said.(April 4, 1993 Houston Chronicle)
-Atomical
Here's an idea: use that program that was aired on the Discovery Channel on September the 16th for points of reference. I have never seen a better documentary than this one that covers the event not only in colossal detail, but it includes both sides of the story to show no bias. mikecucuk 20:30, September 19 September 2006, (UTC)
I removed the part about the witness who saw a girl leaving David's apartment being legally blind. There was no proof, and if he was blind, they wouldn't of talked to him, and he wouldn't of claimed seeing anything. This thing really needs protection. Too many half-assed conspiracy theorists are editing in bullshit. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.130.138.12 ( talk)