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NB! When you have a collision of name forms, try not to favour one or another form of the name, but give the original form and then various local forms in brackets. For exmple: NOT "Vukasin (Bulgarian Vulkashin)" BUT "Vlukashin (Serbian Vukasin, Bulgarian Vulkashin)" OR NOT "Jovan Ugljesa (Bulgarian Ivan Uglesha)" BUT "Iowan Uglesha (Serbian Jovan Ugljesha, Bulgarian Ivan Uglesha)" Original names you can get from the original medieval chronicles. In that case names are Влъкашинъ and Iowaн Углеша. You have to respect this.
When you have a collision of historical interpretations, try not to favour one or another POV, but give pure facts. In that relation - don't write "Serbian ruler" or "Bulgarian ruler", but just "ruler". Ogneslav 12:52, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Battle at Chernomen is better known as Battle of Marica: only 9 results at Google, comparing to 92. So, I included both names.
The brothers have resisted the invading Turks, but in the battle of Marica (battle at Chernomen), on September 26 1371 they were defeated and killed by sultan Murat's hordes.
VMORO following the logic from your argument, the Bulgarian army in Balkan wars was German, since Ferdinand I was German-French. You don’t want to go there. Unfortunately for the long term prospects of Christians in Balkan, the army was a coalition of the two brothers Vukashin and Ugljesa. There were no “several other feudal rulers” – not Bulgarian, not Byzantine not even other Serbian lords. However if you provide a reference for participation of some Bulgarian lord, I’ll respectively back off. -- Cigor 16:26, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Sure, I agree. But you are giving yourself proof to the argument that the army was not "Serbian". VMORO 17:48, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9050991?query=Battle%20of%20the%20Maritsa%20River&ct=
There are not "plenty of historians" who think that "Samuil was the true ruler of the Macedonian Slavs", all western histories on the Balkans or Europe regard Samuil as a Bulgarian tsar and include him in the History of Bulgaria. The concise online edition of Britannica, for example, [6] says this:
"Tsar of Western Bulgaria (980–1014). Ruling originally in Macedonia, he conquered Serbia, northern Bulgaria, Albania, and northern Greece. He revived the Bulgarian patriarchate and in the 980s defeated Basil II. However, his struggle with the Byzantines continued until 1014, when Basil defeated Samuel's army at the Battle of Belasitsa. At Basil's order, the 15,000 Bulgarian prisoners were blinded and then returned to Samuel, who is said to have died of shock."
Regarding the full edition of Britannica which you quote incorrectly, the article consisently talks of him as a Bulgarian ruler and not a Macedonian one - as well as all articles referring to the matter - Basil II, First Bulgarian Empire, etc. Regarding other online encyclopedias - check the listing on the Talk page of Samuil. History books are, unfortunately, not available online but all western (or Russian) ones include his rule as part of the First Bulgarian Empire.
"The Western Bulgarian Empire" or "Western Bulgaria" is an expression which can be found quite often, especially in older sources, but it refers to the First Bulgarian Empire as a whole - in order to distinguish between the western Bulgars (the Bulgarians) and the eastern ones (the Volga Bulgars and their state, also called Bulgaria).
A civilised solution is already found, Cigor - and it is to include the accepted version (which is presented in the very same way in the vast majority of sources) in the main body of the article but also to mention the fringe theory, keeping in this way the NPOV of the article. You want to place a fringe theory in the leading sentence (unacceptable) - well, there are also sources which refer to the Macedonian Slavs as Western Bulgars or simply Bulgarians, if you follow your own "principles", you should hurry to the article Macedonian Slavs and make the necessary corrections before you come to Samuil and want corrections there. VMORO 12:23, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Forgive me; I didn’t see that you answered until now. This time you are the one with fringe theories – everywhere else they are considered as Serbian rulers. The Bulgarian attribute can be explained by Geographical location (the land was called Bulgaria by the “Romans” - Byzantines). This is the same argument all Bulgarian use when they see “Macedonia”/ “Macedonians” in medieval sources. But I generally agree. Their states were not national ones. Of course, because in medieval time there are no national ones. It is a system that allowed clear rule of a foreign thin elite in parts of Italy, Greece, France, Russia and other counties for many centuries without pressure from indigenous population. When one looks in Samuil’s Empire that you considered as a national Bulgarian, whereas my opinion was a conglomerate of Slavs, one have to consider Roman I who is supposedly also tsar. Skilitsa writes that in 1004 he surrendered the city to the Byzantines. He got a title of patrician from Basil II and became strategos of Abydos province. Today such thing is considered as high treason (and it was). But then, loyalty belonged to person, not “nation”. That is why one can see many references like that. So if Samul’s empire has to be Bulgarian, I don’t see why Vukashin is less “national”, so therefore it has to be Serbian.-- Cigor 13:17, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
This is way off the storyline. Why the Bulgarian name? And why was Serbo-Greek changed to Serbo-Bulgarian. What's going on with the article? -- HolyRomanEmperor 16:42, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Who and why edited name of Vukasin's wife from Alena to Jevrosima? Why had I put reference there? In king Vukasin's charter to Ragusa from 1370 ( at Monumenta Serbica p. 180 [7]) he specifically says : ..with my beloved wife Alena and my beloved sons Marko and Andrejas... so there's no base to revert from Alena to Jevrosima which is name from epic poems, from same epic poems in which Marko Kraljevic has a horse who can speak and fairy for a girlfriend, so let's stick to the reliable facts and history, not fantastic stories and fairy tales. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clanedstino ( talk • contribs) 11:15, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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NB! When you have a collision of name forms, try not to favour one or another form of the name, but give the original form and then various local forms in brackets. For exmple: NOT "Vukasin (Bulgarian Vulkashin)" BUT "Vlukashin (Serbian Vukasin, Bulgarian Vulkashin)" OR NOT "Jovan Ugljesa (Bulgarian Ivan Uglesha)" BUT "Iowan Uglesha (Serbian Jovan Ugljesha, Bulgarian Ivan Uglesha)" Original names you can get from the original medieval chronicles. In that case names are Влъкашинъ and Iowaн Углеша. You have to respect this.
When you have a collision of historical interpretations, try not to favour one or another POV, but give pure facts. In that relation - don't write "Serbian ruler" or "Bulgarian ruler", but just "ruler". Ogneslav 12:52, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Battle at Chernomen is better known as Battle of Marica: only 9 results at Google, comparing to 92. So, I included both names.
The brothers have resisted the invading Turks, but in the battle of Marica (battle at Chernomen), on September 26 1371 they were defeated and killed by sultan Murat's hordes.
VMORO following the logic from your argument, the Bulgarian army in Balkan wars was German, since Ferdinand I was German-French. You don’t want to go there. Unfortunately for the long term prospects of Christians in Balkan, the army was a coalition of the two brothers Vukashin and Ugljesa. There were no “several other feudal rulers” – not Bulgarian, not Byzantine not even other Serbian lords. However if you provide a reference for participation of some Bulgarian lord, I’ll respectively back off. -- Cigor 16:26, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Sure, I agree. But you are giving yourself proof to the argument that the army was not "Serbian". VMORO 17:48, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9050991?query=Battle%20of%20the%20Maritsa%20River&ct=
There are not "plenty of historians" who think that "Samuil was the true ruler of the Macedonian Slavs", all western histories on the Balkans or Europe regard Samuil as a Bulgarian tsar and include him in the History of Bulgaria. The concise online edition of Britannica, for example, [6] says this:
"Tsar of Western Bulgaria (980–1014). Ruling originally in Macedonia, he conquered Serbia, northern Bulgaria, Albania, and northern Greece. He revived the Bulgarian patriarchate and in the 980s defeated Basil II. However, his struggle with the Byzantines continued until 1014, when Basil defeated Samuel's army at the Battle of Belasitsa. At Basil's order, the 15,000 Bulgarian prisoners were blinded and then returned to Samuel, who is said to have died of shock."
Regarding the full edition of Britannica which you quote incorrectly, the article consisently talks of him as a Bulgarian ruler and not a Macedonian one - as well as all articles referring to the matter - Basil II, First Bulgarian Empire, etc. Regarding other online encyclopedias - check the listing on the Talk page of Samuil. History books are, unfortunately, not available online but all western (or Russian) ones include his rule as part of the First Bulgarian Empire.
"The Western Bulgarian Empire" or "Western Bulgaria" is an expression which can be found quite often, especially in older sources, but it refers to the First Bulgarian Empire as a whole - in order to distinguish between the western Bulgars (the Bulgarians) and the eastern ones (the Volga Bulgars and their state, also called Bulgaria).
A civilised solution is already found, Cigor - and it is to include the accepted version (which is presented in the very same way in the vast majority of sources) in the main body of the article but also to mention the fringe theory, keeping in this way the NPOV of the article. You want to place a fringe theory in the leading sentence (unacceptable) - well, there are also sources which refer to the Macedonian Slavs as Western Bulgars or simply Bulgarians, if you follow your own "principles", you should hurry to the article Macedonian Slavs and make the necessary corrections before you come to Samuil and want corrections there. VMORO 12:23, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Forgive me; I didn’t see that you answered until now. This time you are the one with fringe theories – everywhere else they are considered as Serbian rulers. The Bulgarian attribute can be explained by Geographical location (the land was called Bulgaria by the “Romans” - Byzantines). This is the same argument all Bulgarian use when they see “Macedonia”/ “Macedonians” in medieval sources. But I generally agree. Their states were not national ones. Of course, because in medieval time there are no national ones. It is a system that allowed clear rule of a foreign thin elite in parts of Italy, Greece, France, Russia and other counties for many centuries without pressure from indigenous population. When one looks in Samuil’s Empire that you considered as a national Bulgarian, whereas my opinion was a conglomerate of Slavs, one have to consider Roman I who is supposedly also tsar. Skilitsa writes that in 1004 he surrendered the city to the Byzantines. He got a title of patrician from Basil II and became strategos of Abydos province. Today such thing is considered as high treason (and it was). But then, loyalty belonged to person, not “nation”. That is why one can see many references like that. So if Samul’s empire has to be Bulgarian, I don’t see why Vukashin is less “national”, so therefore it has to be Serbian.-- Cigor 13:17, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
This is way off the storyline. Why the Bulgarian name? And why was Serbo-Greek changed to Serbo-Bulgarian. What's going on with the article? -- HolyRomanEmperor 16:42, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Who and why edited name of Vukasin's wife from Alena to Jevrosima? Why had I put reference there? In king Vukasin's charter to Ragusa from 1370 ( at Monumenta Serbica p. 180 [7]) he specifically says : ..with my beloved wife Alena and my beloved sons Marko and Andrejas... so there's no base to revert from Alena to Jevrosima which is name from epic poems, from same epic poems in which Marko Kraljevic has a horse who can speak and fairy for a girlfriend, so let's stick to the reliable facts and history, not fantastic stories and fairy tales. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clanedstino ( talk • contribs) 11:15, 12 August 2009 (UTC)