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I have reverted to my more detailed entry. Discussions regarding voting equipment that ignore the election process and the duties of the election official are not useful to anyone. Please expand the technical portions as necessary but please do so within the context of election processes and laws, thank you.
You're right. The process and the people are not suffieicnet to prevent fraud. My comments strive only to add the people and the process to the discussion. Just like the process alone cannot prevent fraud, neither can technology alone prevent fraud.
I'm not so sure I agree with the collapsing of the VVPAT page and the VVAT page. The latter is a super-set of the former and many of us (for example, in the ACCURATE group) see VVPAT as one possible solution that is particularly appropriate for the short-term. -- Joebeone ( Talk) 16:55, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I just reverted extensive changes [1] to this page that should be discussed here and cited thoroughly. -- Joebeone ( Talk) 19:40, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted to my more detailed entry. Discussions regarding voting equipment that ignore the election process and the duties of the election official are not useful to anyone. Please expand the technical portions as necessary but please do so within the context of election processes and laws, thank you.
I'm going to review this page and make some changes (that I'll cite sources for). Let me know if you'd like to help. -- Joebeone ( Talk) 18:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
This article sounds much like an excuse for why VVPAT aren't being used. The second paragraph of the overview immediately casts into doubt the necessity and feasibility of VVPAT in a way that completely disregards expert opinion that VVPAT are necessary for assuring the soundness of electronic elections. It seems to have been implicitly assumed that electronic voting is the way things have always gone, and that there could/should never be a return to (recountable) paper ballots. Nothing, of course, could be further from the truth. VVPAT is what legitimizes and makes accountable an optional electronic voting system that is meant as an improvement. LeoTrottier 00:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Is it Verified or Verifiable? I really think verifiable is more accurate and in general makes more sense. Anyone agree? -- Electiontechnology 00:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
My impression is that 'verifiable' does not necessitate that the voter actually do any verifying. Verified means that they do. 'Verified' is more secure, in my view. LeoTrottier 22:59, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
It is verifiable in Indian context Abhiram1129 ( talk) 12:07, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
Why is this here? There is arleady a ballot article, and it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the VVPAT. -- Electiontechnology 00:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC) I moved this to ballot, it seems to make more sense there. -- Electiontechnology 02:05, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
It seems that putting caveats in the overview regarding why or how VVPATs are difficult implement is like explaining how backup parachutes are good, but an expensive and complicated addition to existing parachute technology. The point is that, in a voting system that is optional to begin with, it doesn't matter how costly and difficult it is to make it sound and secure. The system is worse than useless unless we can be sure it's working as intended.
For this reason I think caveats should be moved elsewhere in the article, and not put in the overview. If you think different, please discuss the proposed changes here. LeoTrottier 17:53, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Taintain:
P.S. If you have comments for me, please leave them here or on my talk page. -- Electiontechnology 02:28, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
and no, i will not leave Your diebold-version there and talk someplace else. -- Taintain 22:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
You most certainly did not clarify that. Please stop reverting the article. This is a violation of wikipedia policy: Wikipedia:Three-revert rule. I am not sure if this is a language barrier that is contributing to this lack of understanding, I truly want this conversation to be in good faith, but you insist on ignoring my comments and inserting incorrect information into this article. Your edit, "...he can be sure that even a corrupted voting machine will not be able to tamper with it", is absolutely false, and at best misleading. As I've tried to explain to you repeatedly, you cannot say this is an impossible task. I again have done my best to remove only the factually incorrect information and incorporate your changes. Please take a moment to reread my comments and the source I recommended.-- Electiontechnology
what kind of "scientist" made this study? in the attacks on "DRE with VVPAT" it misses an obvious case: the paper reads "Adams", the display shows "Jefferson". this happens once, an election official is called by the voter and the machine goes straight to the FBI. if You know the people who made the study, please tell them to fix this error. i changed the "cannot be changed" to "hard to change" to credit all the theoretical attacks of appending and rewinding. -- Taintain 00:02, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
would You believe me that i'm michael jackson ? why not ? why should i believe that You are an academic with a book ? citing the personal resume doesn't help in the internet, arguing on the facts does.
now on these facts (3rd try, and it really takes only 3 minutes): imagine You are a voter, the screen shows Jefferson, the VVPAT shows Adams. do You:
now after answering that question please read the brennan attack #6, page 65. yes, the brennan study doesn't even consider Your answer, there might be something wrong with the study. <-- please answer to this and we might get ahead to make this article the best possible. -- Taintain 21:41, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
she has voted for Tom Jefferson.". that's the attack this thread is about. (2) attacks are usually described in more detail, see for example: http://vote.nist.gov/threats/papers.htm (3) the brennan document doesn't mention that this study wasn't even trying to find out how many people in a real life election would find an error in a VVPAT but to compare paper to audio trail. citing this study is like comparing a lab-study (without real money) about "do people read their credit-card-recipt before signing" to the real world, where people loose real money if they sign a wrong recipt. and yes, a lot of people consider voting irrational, that's the 75% which stay home. the people which care about their vote are the 25% which take the time to register, go there and sometimes wait for hours in lines to cast their vote. -- Taintain
not a research paper put a good summary of the brennan-flaws: http://www.efve.eu/Analysis:_The_Machinery_of_Democracy:_Protecting_Elections_in_an_Electronic_World
(1) the problem is, that the brennan study considers an attack as successful which wouldn't be successful because anybody can point out the difference between screen and paper.
the study doesn't say there is a review screen, but it neither says the opposite, and it rather sounds like it still is on the screen:
brennan study, page 65:
she has voted for Tom Jefferson.
paper record that lists her choices for every race, except for governor. Under the governor’s race, it would state that she has selected Johnny Adams.
maybe this is more clear in the mysterious missing attack catalog which the study says describes all attacks. maybe that includes such details, who knows ? so much about (2). it's anyway bad scientific practice to rely on an unpublished second document (and say it is published).
(3) after You change the number to 90% the current conclusion of the study ("the election can be rigged with attack 6") wouldn't be valid anymore (the study says this itself for 80%, see p75). then we don't need to argue anymore since this whole discussion started about if attack #6 could be successful. -- Taintain 22:08, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
The examples listed are not ballotless, do not rely on DREs, and do not really rely on an audit in the traditional sense of the word. In fact, they are fundamentally different as voters take a receipt home with them. Better examples would be the VVPAT add-ons from Diebold, Seqouia, ES&S and other vendors. -- Toshardin 00:02, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I should add that NIST calls Punchscan et al. E2E systems, or End-to-end auditable voting systems: [4]. The discussion of receipts under "Implementation Challenges of VVPAT" is misleading, no proposed so-called "receipt-based" systems advocate giving the voter a receipt which actually allows them to show to themselves or others what their intention was when they cast their vote. Additionally, these systems generally use proofs to show that the encrypted ballots were counted correctly. So the voter knows that their vote made it into the votes that were tallied, and that the tallied votes were properly decrypted due to the proof (this is much easier to see in ThreeBallot than the other systems, as the proof is "count the public ballots"). -- Toshardin 00:24, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Under VVPAT Application, read the last paragraph which starts with "There are cryptographic solutions that can assure voters their votes are correctly tabulated." Are all the solutions in this paragraph E2E? If so, let's start an E2E article and move that paragraph to it. -- Pulpspy 19:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, i've moved it to End-to-end auditable voting systems and slightly edited it. Please add when you can. -- Toshardin 21:36, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
-- Electiontechnology 07:15, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
-- Taintain 14:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
-- Electiontechnology 19:17, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
-- Electiontechnology 19:29, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
-- Taintain 23:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Taintain, no one is blind reverting anything but you. I think the issue is you have a very limited understanding of voting systems and make claims well beyond your level of knowledge. In my opinion you also have an personal agenda and generally like opinion much more than fact. You are attempting to imply that voting system computer memory can be changed in an instant without a trace. You don't know that, and have no sources to support you.
The fundamental problem with your "common sense" solution isn't the technical constraint of printers and switches, it is that you need to understand that what you think is so easy is not. Your example uses "voter card"s, many voting systems do not use voter cards. Could someone manually flip that switch? Could software or tampering override the switch? Please read the original research page. Hopefully it will give you a better understanding.
I sincerely appreciate all the efforts you have put into improving Wikipedia and on the election related articles. I hope that you continue to do so. I also hope that those continuing edits can be free of any personal beliefs you may have.
-- Electiontechnology 16:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I am discussing your limited knowledge. If you find that personal I apologize, but it is a serious issue. You can't grasp the idea that your edits imply that all voting machine memory can be changed instantly without a trace, or you are trying to imply something you know to be falso. Thank you for stopping your blind reverts of your original research. -- Electiontechnology 22:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
there should be no "conclusion" at the end of an encyclopedic article as it's no research. this one is anyway wrong since even the brennan study says, that election fraud is not possible if enough people check the VVPAT. so it does a lot more than just raise voter confidence (if implemented properly).
-- Electiontechnology 04:04, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Please understand that your edits are incorrect. You have been notified of this.
You are in violation of the Wikipedia Three-revert rule as you have be notified and ignored. I am referring you to an administrator who can hopefully solve this problem. -- Electiontechnology 19:34, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
I eliminated the reference to the VVPAT under glass being known as "the Mercuri method" since there is no reliable reference indicating that it is called or known as this anywhere in the world, other that at Wikipedia. While I don't doubt that Mercuri may have discussed this configuration in her thesis, I doubt even she called it the Mercuri Method in her thesis. (Can you imagine the eye rolling that would have caused among her professors?!) Without any references showing that this attribution is a common one, it smacks of someone either self-promoting or trying to push an unaccepted term and attribution into use. -- Fixn ( talk) 20:08, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
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This article refers to the "Mercuri method" as another term for VVPAT, her method does not appear to diverge from the described version so much as to require a separate article GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:11, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
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Hello[ to whomsoever is reading this carefully], I've removed the odd placement of MOS:ALLEGED quotation-marks over the verb ‘verify’ as paraphrased from the study conducted by The Hindu® Centre for Politics and Public Policy in the sub-section "Common Problems" pertaining to the pragmatism of a VVPATs-based electoral-operation. Regards. – Mohd.maaz864 ( talk) 20:14, 8 May 2020 (UTC) Edit Note: Diversified the wiki-mentioning of page for the institute. Given many of the overseas editors might not be aware of the Institute's repute. – Mohd.maaz864 ( talk) 20:19, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I have reverted to my more detailed entry. Discussions regarding voting equipment that ignore the election process and the duties of the election official are not useful to anyone. Please expand the technical portions as necessary but please do so within the context of election processes and laws, thank you.
You're right. The process and the people are not suffieicnet to prevent fraud. My comments strive only to add the people and the process to the discussion. Just like the process alone cannot prevent fraud, neither can technology alone prevent fraud.
I'm not so sure I agree with the collapsing of the VVPAT page and the VVAT page. The latter is a super-set of the former and many of us (for example, in the ACCURATE group) see VVPAT as one possible solution that is particularly appropriate for the short-term. -- Joebeone ( Talk) 16:55, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I just reverted extensive changes [1] to this page that should be discussed here and cited thoroughly. -- Joebeone ( Talk) 19:40, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted to my more detailed entry. Discussions regarding voting equipment that ignore the election process and the duties of the election official are not useful to anyone. Please expand the technical portions as necessary but please do so within the context of election processes and laws, thank you.
I'm going to review this page and make some changes (that I'll cite sources for). Let me know if you'd like to help. -- Joebeone ( Talk) 18:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
This article sounds much like an excuse for why VVPAT aren't being used. The second paragraph of the overview immediately casts into doubt the necessity and feasibility of VVPAT in a way that completely disregards expert opinion that VVPAT are necessary for assuring the soundness of electronic elections. It seems to have been implicitly assumed that electronic voting is the way things have always gone, and that there could/should never be a return to (recountable) paper ballots. Nothing, of course, could be further from the truth. VVPAT is what legitimizes and makes accountable an optional electronic voting system that is meant as an improvement. LeoTrottier 00:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Is it Verified or Verifiable? I really think verifiable is more accurate and in general makes more sense. Anyone agree? -- Electiontechnology 00:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
My impression is that 'verifiable' does not necessitate that the voter actually do any verifying. Verified means that they do. 'Verified' is more secure, in my view. LeoTrottier 22:59, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
It is verifiable in Indian context Abhiram1129 ( talk) 12:07, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
Why is this here? There is arleady a ballot article, and it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the VVPAT. -- Electiontechnology 00:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC) I moved this to ballot, it seems to make more sense there. -- Electiontechnology 02:05, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
It seems that putting caveats in the overview regarding why or how VVPATs are difficult implement is like explaining how backup parachutes are good, but an expensive and complicated addition to existing parachute technology. The point is that, in a voting system that is optional to begin with, it doesn't matter how costly and difficult it is to make it sound and secure. The system is worse than useless unless we can be sure it's working as intended.
For this reason I think caveats should be moved elsewhere in the article, and not put in the overview. If you think different, please discuss the proposed changes here. LeoTrottier 17:53, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Taintain:
P.S. If you have comments for me, please leave them here or on my talk page. -- Electiontechnology 02:28, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
and no, i will not leave Your diebold-version there and talk someplace else. -- Taintain 22:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
You most certainly did not clarify that. Please stop reverting the article. This is a violation of wikipedia policy: Wikipedia:Three-revert rule. I am not sure if this is a language barrier that is contributing to this lack of understanding, I truly want this conversation to be in good faith, but you insist on ignoring my comments and inserting incorrect information into this article. Your edit, "...he can be sure that even a corrupted voting machine will not be able to tamper with it", is absolutely false, and at best misleading. As I've tried to explain to you repeatedly, you cannot say this is an impossible task. I again have done my best to remove only the factually incorrect information and incorporate your changes. Please take a moment to reread my comments and the source I recommended.-- Electiontechnology
what kind of "scientist" made this study? in the attacks on "DRE with VVPAT" it misses an obvious case: the paper reads "Adams", the display shows "Jefferson". this happens once, an election official is called by the voter and the machine goes straight to the FBI. if You know the people who made the study, please tell them to fix this error. i changed the "cannot be changed" to "hard to change" to credit all the theoretical attacks of appending and rewinding. -- Taintain 00:02, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
would You believe me that i'm michael jackson ? why not ? why should i believe that You are an academic with a book ? citing the personal resume doesn't help in the internet, arguing on the facts does.
now on these facts (3rd try, and it really takes only 3 minutes): imagine You are a voter, the screen shows Jefferson, the VVPAT shows Adams. do You:
now after answering that question please read the brennan attack #6, page 65. yes, the brennan study doesn't even consider Your answer, there might be something wrong with the study. <-- please answer to this and we might get ahead to make this article the best possible. -- Taintain 21:41, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
she has voted for Tom Jefferson.". that's the attack this thread is about. (2) attacks are usually described in more detail, see for example: http://vote.nist.gov/threats/papers.htm (3) the brennan document doesn't mention that this study wasn't even trying to find out how many people in a real life election would find an error in a VVPAT but to compare paper to audio trail. citing this study is like comparing a lab-study (without real money) about "do people read their credit-card-recipt before signing" to the real world, where people loose real money if they sign a wrong recipt. and yes, a lot of people consider voting irrational, that's the 75% which stay home. the people which care about their vote are the 25% which take the time to register, go there and sometimes wait for hours in lines to cast their vote. -- Taintain
not a research paper put a good summary of the brennan-flaws: http://www.efve.eu/Analysis:_The_Machinery_of_Democracy:_Protecting_Elections_in_an_Electronic_World
(1) the problem is, that the brennan study considers an attack as successful which wouldn't be successful because anybody can point out the difference between screen and paper.
the study doesn't say there is a review screen, but it neither says the opposite, and it rather sounds like it still is on the screen:
brennan study, page 65:
she has voted for Tom Jefferson.
paper record that lists her choices for every race, except for governor. Under the governor’s race, it would state that she has selected Johnny Adams.
maybe this is more clear in the mysterious missing attack catalog which the study says describes all attacks. maybe that includes such details, who knows ? so much about (2). it's anyway bad scientific practice to rely on an unpublished second document (and say it is published).
(3) after You change the number to 90% the current conclusion of the study ("the election can be rigged with attack 6") wouldn't be valid anymore (the study says this itself for 80%, see p75). then we don't need to argue anymore since this whole discussion started about if attack #6 could be successful. -- Taintain 22:08, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
The examples listed are not ballotless, do not rely on DREs, and do not really rely on an audit in the traditional sense of the word. In fact, they are fundamentally different as voters take a receipt home with them. Better examples would be the VVPAT add-ons from Diebold, Seqouia, ES&S and other vendors. -- Toshardin 00:02, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I should add that NIST calls Punchscan et al. E2E systems, or End-to-end auditable voting systems: [4]. The discussion of receipts under "Implementation Challenges of VVPAT" is misleading, no proposed so-called "receipt-based" systems advocate giving the voter a receipt which actually allows them to show to themselves or others what their intention was when they cast their vote. Additionally, these systems generally use proofs to show that the encrypted ballots were counted correctly. So the voter knows that their vote made it into the votes that were tallied, and that the tallied votes were properly decrypted due to the proof (this is much easier to see in ThreeBallot than the other systems, as the proof is "count the public ballots"). -- Toshardin 00:24, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Under VVPAT Application, read the last paragraph which starts with "There are cryptographic solutions that can assure voters their votes are correctly tabulated." Are all the solutions in this paragraph E2E? If so, let's start an E2E article and move that paragraph to it. -- Pulpspy 19:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, i've moved it to End-to-end auditable voting systems and slightly edited it. Please add when you can. -- Toshardin 21:36, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
-- Electiontechnology 07:15, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
-- Taintain 14:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
-- Electiontechnology 19:17, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
-- Electiontechnology 19:29, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
-- Taintain 23:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Taintain, no one is blind reverting anything but you. I think the issue is you have a very limited understanding of voting systems and make claims well beyond your level of knowledge. In my opinion you also have an personal agenda and generally like opinion much more than fact. You are attempting to imply that voting system computer memory can be changed in an instant without a trace. You don't know that, and have no sources to support you.
The fundamental problem with your "common sense" solution isn't the technical constraint of printers and switches, it is that you need to understand that what you think is so easy is not. Your example uses "voter card"s, many voting systems do not use voter cards. Could someone manually flip that switch? Could software or tampering override the switch? Please read the original research page. Hopefully it will give you a better understanding.
I sincerely appreciate all the efforts you have put into improving Wikipedia and on the election related articles. I hope that you continue to do so. I also hope that those continuing edits can be free of any personal beliefs you may have.
-- Electiontechnology 16:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I am discussing your limited knowledge. If you find that personal I apologize, but it is a serious issue. You can't grasp the idea that your edits imply that all voting machine memory can be changed instantly without a trace, or you are trying to imply something you know to be falso. Thank you for stopping your blind reverts of your original research. -- Electiontechnology 22:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
there should be no "conclusion" at the end of an encyclopedic article as it's no research. this one is anyway wrong since even the brennan study says, that election fraud is not possible if enough people check the VVPAT. so it does a lot more than just raise voter confidence (if implemented properly).
-- Electiontechnology 04:04, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Please understand that your edits are incorrect. You have been notified of this.
You are in violation of the Wikipedia Three-revert rule as you have be notified and ignored. I am referring you to an administrator who can hopefully solve this problem. -- Electiontechnology 19:34, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
I eliminated the reference to the VVPAT under glass being known as "the Mercuri method" since there is no reliable reference indicating that it is called or known as this anywhere in the world, other that at Wikipedia. While I don't doubt that Mercuri may have discussed this configuration in her thesis, I doubt even she called it the Mercuri Method in her thesis. (Can you imagine the eye rolling that would have caused among her professors?!) Without any references showing that this attribution is a common one, it smacks of someone either self-promoting or trying to push an unaccepted term and attribution into use. -- Fixn ( talk) 20:08, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 19:32, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
This article refers to the "Mercuri method" as another term for VVPAT, her method does not appear to diverge from the described version so much as to require a separate article GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:11, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 13:35, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello[ to whomsoever is reading this carefully], I've removed the odd placement of MOS:ALLEGED quotation-marks over the verb ‘verify’ as paraphrased from the study conducted by The Hindu® Centre for Politics and Public Policy in the sub-section "Common Problems" pertaining to the pragmatism of a VVPATs-based electoral-operation. Regards. – Mohd.maaz864 ( talk) 20:14, 8 May 2020 (UTC) Edit Note: Diversified the wiki-mentioning of page for the institute. Given many of the overseas editors might not be aware of the Institute's repute. – Mohd.maaz864 ( talk) 20:19, 8 May 2020 (UTC)