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I realize this is only a stub article, but I must point out that the www.fija.org link "surviving voir dire" is a politically biased, ajenda advocation piece. I move that it be removed from the page.
From the discussion here, I can see that the author(s) believe that "voir dire" being mistranslated as "to see [...] say" is common, but I would like to see some documentation on that assertion made at the end of the etymology section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.79.243.185 ( talk) 18:55, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
I just had jury duty today and they told us there that "voir dire" means "to see you say." Which fits somewhat better with my knowledge of French and of what the process is like. -- Jfruh 02:17, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
(I hope that helps!) Ckamaeleon 18:06, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
"Truth" in French is verité. Voir means "to say." 67.170.195.13 01:11, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
And in (somewhat archaic) French, the word "Voire" means "true", used in agreeing with a statement just made. This usage occurs frequently in Rabelais. The word is derived from Latin verum, and has no connection whatever with "voir" meaning to see (Latin videre). -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 17:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
"Somewhat archaic" ? "Voire" meaning "true" is fully archaic French, Rabelais (1494-1583) already more frequently uses it in the expression "Voire mais" ("True, but"), which in fact introduces a doubt about what has been said before, and this meaning of doubt is the only one left in modern french. The "true" meaning for "voire" existed mainly at a time french spelling was not standardized, and you could write either "voire" or "voir". Therefore referring to it brings confusion more than information and is best removed.
In truth (no pun intended) it is no surprise that the words for "seeing" and the words for "truth" / "proof" are similar. That happens in many languages. In English the expression "seeing is believing" is the quintessential phrase that supports that connection. The reason is that seeing something is undeniably the highest level of proof (as opposed to witness testimony). Thus metaphysically seeing and truth are two aspects of the same life experience and therefore the word for one experience is derived from the other. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.91.73.212 ( talk) 21:00, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
The article says, "Voir dire may also be a special hearing where a judge decides whether evidence can be presented at trial. It is a trial within a trial, where the victim may be called to testify." The word, "victim", seems highly inappropriate here. It is both ambiguous (who is it referring to, exactly?) and overly emotive and, additionally, it is not a legal term. Can someone shed some light on who can be called to testify in such voir dires? Is it only the plaintiff (as the original text seems to imply) or can others, including defendants, be called? -- Hux 13:22, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
The article could use some more information (I'd add it if I knew :): Are the potential jurors under oath? Can they be punished for false statements leading to them being chosen for the duty? -- SLi 00:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
This section from Jury selection surely implies another aspect of this article:
The article states:
Use in Commonwealth countries[edit]In the United Kingdom, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada (and sometimes in the United States of America) it refers to a "trial within a trial".
Ireland and the United States are not Commonwealth countries. This section needs to be re-worked so as to better account for these nations in the section. Montalban ( talk) 02:31, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
It's worthing pointing out that both videre (to see) and verum (truth) have an etymological relation (see the OED entry on Wit), and so it seems to be overstating things to say that there is no relation between voir (Latin) and voire (French), since they come from different root words (when these root words themselves are related). But I can see the purpose of the clarification in order to avoid the common misconception that voir is from the French word that is currently in use. I have added in the attenuation that there is no 'immediate' connection. Tsop ( talk) 10:25, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
While I agree with the pronunciation as shown in the article, it should be mentioned that there may be local variations. Texas is a prime example, where the term is pronounced as "vore deer". This is consistent in every court where I have been called for jury duty. In several instances, the correct pronunciation was given, with the insistence that "in TEXAS, we pronounce it as " vore deer "
Would it be appropriate to include these alternative pronunciations in the beginning of the article?
~Megan M.
2602:306:CD93:1700:7548:5C09:AF58:39B4 ( talk) 20:05, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
The word itself voir is probably not used past the 14th century, but English courts had for centuries spoken Law French Law French 2603:8000:D000:3300:A0BF:C52B:FA3:B116 ( talk) 07:19, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
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I realize this is only a stub article, but I must point out that the www.fija.org link "surviving voir dire" is a politically biased, ajenda advocation piece. I move that it be removed from the page.
From the discussion here, I can see that the author(s) believe that "voir dire" being mistranslated as "to see [...] say" is common, but I would like to see some documentation on that assertion made at the end of the etymology section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.79.243.185 ( talk) 18:55, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
I just had jury duty today and they told us there that "voir dire" means "to see you say." Which fits somewhat better with my knowledge of French and of what the process is like. -- Jfruh 02:17, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
(I hope that helps!) Ckamaeleon 18:06, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
"Truth" in French is verité. Voir means "to say." 67.170.195.13 01:11, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
And in (somewhat archaic) French, the word "Voire" means "true", used in agreeing with a statement just made. This usage occurs frequently in Rabelais. The word is derived from Latin verum, and has no connection whatever with "voir" meaning to see (Latin videre). -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 17:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
"Somewhat archaic" ? "Voire" meaning "true" is fully archaic French, Rabelais (1494-1583) already more frequently uses it in the expression "Voire mais" ("True, but"), which in fact introduces a doubt about what has been said before, and this meaning of doubt is the only one left in modern french. The "true" meaning for "voire" existed mainly at a time french spelling was not standardized, and you could write either "voire" or "voir". Therefore referring to it brings confusion more than information and is best removed.
In truth (no pun intended) it is no surprise that the words for "seeing" and the words for "truth" / "proof" are similar. That happens in many languages. In English the expression "seeing is believing" is the quintessential phrase that supports that connection. The reason is that seeing something is undeniably the highest level of proof (as opposed to witness testimony). Thus metaphysically seeing and truth are two aspects of the same life experience and therefore the word for one experience is derived from the other. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.91.73.212 ( talk) 21:00, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
The article says, "Voir dire may also be a special hearing where a judge decides whether evidence can be presented at trial. It is a trial within a trial, where the victim may be called to testify." The word, "victim", seems highly inappropriate here. It is both ambiguous (who is it referring to, exactly?) and overly emotive and, additionally, it is not a legal term. Can someone shed some light on who can be called to testify in such voir dires? Is it only the plaintiff (as the original text seems to imply) or can others, including defendants, be called? -- Hux 13:22, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
The article could use some more information (I'd add it if I knew :): Are the potential jurors under oath? Can they be punished for false statements leading to them being chosen for the duty? -- SLi 00:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
This section from Jury selection surely implies another aspect of this article:
The article states:
Use in Commonwealth countries[edit]In the United Kingdom, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada (and sometimes in the United States of America) it refers to a "trial within a trial".
Ireland and the United States are not Commonwealth countries. This section needs to be re-worked so as to better account for these nations in the section. Montalban ( talk) 02:31, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
It's worthing pointing out that both videre (to see) and verum (truth) have an etymological relation (see the OED entry on Wit), and so it seems to be overstating things to say that there is no relation between voir (Latin) and voire (French), since they come from different root words (when these root words themselves are related). But I can see the purpose of the clarification in order to avoid the common misconception that voir is from the French word that is currently in use. I have added in the attenuation that there is no 'immediate' connection. Tsop ( talk) 10:25, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
While I agree with the pronunciation as shown in the article, it should be mentioned that there may be local variations. Texas is a prime example, where the term is pronounced as "vore deer". This is consistent in every court where I have been called for jury duty. In several instances, the correct pronunciation was given, with the insistence that "in TEXAS, we pronounce it as " vore deer "
Would it be appropriate to include these alternative pronunciations in the beginning of the article?
~Megan M.
2602:306:CD93:1700:7548:5C09:AF58:39B4 ( talk) 20:05, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
The word itself voir is probably not used past the 14th century, but English courts had for centuries spoken Law French Law French 2603:8000:D000:3300:A0BF:C52B:FA3:B116 ( talk) 07:19, 19 July 2023 (UTC)