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That doesn't sound like a c. lysdexia 13:53, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
"Hungarian is one of the few languages with true palatal plosives" ??? And what about Slavic languages? In Czech and Slovak "ť" is used to represent [c] (and ď to represent [ɟ]) and in Slovak "ti", "te" are also pronounced palatalized ([ci], [ce]). In Russian and Ukrainian (and probably Belarusian) [c] is pronounced to read "ть", "те" ("тэ" in Ukrainian), "тё", "ти" ("тї", "ті" in Ukrainian), "тя", "тю" (and "дь",... is for [ɟ]). It's not used in Polish, I can't say about the the Southern Slavic languages (Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Bulgarian,…), although the article on Serbian language suggests the sound is used there too. — Ján Kľuka, 2005-09-08T12:02+0200
While the recordings are in fact correct, I doubt that this is the same sound represented by the soft variants of t in some Slavic languages and Hungarian, as I read in many articles here. Isn't that a [t]-sound articulated with the tongue touching the palate? The tongue doesn't make contact with the upper-teeth while pronouncing [c]. I have always thought of this sound as a strong palatalization of [k]. That is, while [kʲ] still remains velar, articulated a bit more forward than [k], [c] is fully palatal. For instance, in Turkish it is the variant of the phoneme /k/ with front wovels following, with both acting mostly as allophones of each other. Ditto for [g], [gʲ] and [ɟ]. I am confused about this matter in other languages mentioned above and hope that someone clears it up, preferably by giving some sound samples. -- Pipifax 16:28, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
As this is en.Wikipedia, common sense dictates that editors describe the sound as it relates to English which this description doesn't do very well. The main difference between this sound (from listening to the recording) and English 'k' seems to be an absence of aspirated air after the sound and the fact that it is produced at a different place on the palate. If Graham Bell was able to teach his deaf wife how to speak simply by describing what to do with her tongue and mouth, a phonetician with an adequate understanding of this sound should be able to describe it less ambiguously than this article. Franky, I consider the description of this sound an unintelligible mess. Mike Hayes ( talk) 02:47, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
sound says something like "ja, aja" (like y in yes), is it right? -- Monkbel 10:04, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
I think you might've downloaded a wrong sample. :) This one in the article is definitely not the English y in yes.
If you are certain that you've downloaded the good sample than the only thing I can imagine is that you might not notice the difference because you're not used to this sound (as it never occurs in your own language). I have the same problem with the English [ð] of "than". I cannot distinguish it from a [d] sound (as in Dan/iel/), because I only hear it when I listen to native English speakers. And that doesn't happen too often. -- 194.152.154.1 03:12, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Monkbel that there is a very audible IPA:/j/, in the recording. It sounds rather like IPA:/akja:/ and, in fact, the section below this one states that this sound is like the 'cu' in 'cute', which confirms this point, as does the section that compares it with 'kj' in Reykjavik. Mike Hayes ( talk) 02:55, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Is this sound similar to Serbo-Croatian c or ć? -- Djordje D. Bozovic 22:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Isn't Spanish ch a voiceless postalveolar affricate?
Well, somebody's removed it again, but it is correct indeed. If users are adding every single dialectal variety in other languages I don't see a reason to not include the Canarian occurence of this sound, so I'm recovering it.-- Il Qathar ( talk) 17:10, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
Yup. FWIW, the kj in Reykjavík is pronounced with a true [c]. -andy 91.32.75.66 09:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I do not speak this language, but I do have a vague thought that they have a similar or the same sound in their language. So have they? -andy 91.32.75.66 09:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Vietnamese phonology says:
So, I've deleted mention about Vietnamese in the article. -- Koryakov Yuri 18:28, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I think most of them are wrong.
Many of the examples describe the Romance /k/, a fronted velar ("palatovelar"?) plosive. That is [k̟], not [c]. [c] sounds similar to [tʲ], not to [kʲ]. As in all dorsopalatal consonants, the tongue bends into a ⋂ shape, with the tip touching the alveolar ridge of the lower jaw.
Others probably describe [tʲ], though the difference between [c] and [tʲ] is a rather small matter of degree.
AFAIK the Albanian q, gj are [kʲ], [gʲ] in the south and [t͡ɕ], [d͡ʑ] in the north – the same what happens to the letters ќ and ѓ in the neighboring Macedonian language. Sure, one can expect [c ɟ] as historical intermediates between the palatalized velar stops and the alveolopalatal ( = palatalized palatoalveolar) affricates, and maybe these pronunciations actually occur somewhere in central Albania, but I'd like to see some evidence for this.
Most Australian languages have "laminopalatal" (postalveolar?) plosives; the tj in the last example is such a thing. Dorsopalatal plosives, or even nasals, apparently don't occur anywhere in Australia (not even in Yanyuwa which has plosives and nasals at seven contrasting places of articulation). David Marjanović 11:57, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
I took the liberty of removing the alleged Polish example from the table. I've never heard "kie-" pronounced with an IPA [c], and I've been using the language for forty years now. The word in question is pronounced with a [kʲ] instead. By the way, the meaning of the word is 'when' rather than 'and', which further makes me think that the example was probably a misunderstanding. Regards -- Bmucha
Am I the only one who thinks the similarity to [tʃ] is slightly over the top? I can see a much bigger similarity to [k]. » bye ee 00:14, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
It's interesting. I don't hear any similarity with [k]. To me, it sounds exactly like [tj] as in British "tune". (I know it's neither, but that's how I hear it, no [kj], just [tj].) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.204.51.15 ( talk) 21:53, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
My German-Greek dictionary uses k with a hook similar to the "more rounded" diacritic in IPA (◌̹) to denote the sound [c]. Is there a diacritic in IPA which looks like the "more rounded" diacritic and shows palatalization? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Meidei ( talk • contribs) 22:45, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
Is it possible that some accents of English in Ireland use [c] for t in tune [cu:n]. Check out how Micheál Ó Muircheartaigh pronounces the word opportunity at 8:21 of the following video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqkVkt0P74M&feature=related. I'm thinking it's [ɔpərcu:nɪtɪ], but I'm not sure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.20.33.217 ( talk) 09:33, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
For Blackfoot it says that [c] is an "allophone of /k/ after front vowels", but the example given is [aˈkicoan]. I suppose this is supposed to be [aˈcikoan]? Does anyone have a source for it? — Lfdder ( talk) 16:49, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
"The airstream mechanism is pulmonic, which means it is articulated by pushing air solely with the intercostal muscles and diaphragm, as in most sounds."
The human diaphragm does not, and cannot, push air out of the lungs. It be contracted to draw air in, and it can be relaxed to allow exhalation, but the pressure of exhalation comes from contracting the intercostl muscles. The diaphragm cannot "push air." Simple human anatomy. 172.56.193.244 ( talk) 16:58, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
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That doesn't sound like a c. lysdexia 13:53, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
"Hungarian is one of the few languages with true palatal plosives" ??? And what about Slavic languages? In Czech and Slovak "ť" is used to represent [c] (and ď to represent [ɟ]) and in Slovak "ti", "te" are also pronounced palatalized ([ci], [ce]). In Russian and Ukrainian (and probably Belarusian) [c] is pronounced to read "ть", "те" ("тэ" in Ukrainian), "тё", "ти" ("тї", "ті" in Ukrainian), "тя", "тю" (and "дь",... is for [ɟ]). It's not used in Polish, I can't say about the the Southern Slavic languages (Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Bulgarian,…), although the article on Serbian language suggests the sound is used there too. — Ján Kľuka, 2005-09-08T12:02+0200
While the recordings are in fact correct, I doubt that this is the same sound represented by the soft variants of t in some Slavic languages and Hungarian, as I read in many articles here. Isn't that a [t]-sound articulated with the tongue touching the palate? The tongue doesn't make contact with the upper-teeth while pronouncing [c]. I have always thought of this sound as a strong palatalization of [k]. That is, while [kʲ] still remains velar, articulated a bit more forward than [k], [c] is fully palatal. For instance, in Turkish it is the variant of the phoneme /k/ with front wovels following, with both acting mostly as allophones of each other. Ditto for [g], [gʲ] and [ɟ]. I am confused about this matter in other languages mentioned above and hope that someone clears it up, preferably by giving some sound samples. -- Pipifax 16:28, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
As this is en.Wikipedia, common sense dictates that editors describe the sound as it relates to English which this description doesn't do very well. The main difference between this sound (from listening to the recording) and English 'k' seems to be an absence of aspirated air after the sound and the fact that it is produced at a different place on the palate. If Graham Bell was able to teach his deaf wife how to speak simply by describing what to do with her tongue and mouth, a phonetician with an adequate understanding of this sound should be able to describe it less ambiguously than this article. Franky, I consider the description of this sound an unintelligible mess. Mike Hayes ( talk) 02:47, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
sound says something like "ja, aja" (like y in yes), is it right? -- Monkbel 10:04, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
I think you might've downloaded a wrong sample. :) This one in the article is definitely not the English y in yes.
If you are certain that you've downloaded the good sample than the only thing I can imagine is that you might not notice the difference because you're not used to this sound (as it never occurs in your own language). I have the same problem with the English [ð] of "than". I cannot distinguish it from a [d] sound (as in Dan/iel/), because I only hear it when I listen to native English speakers. And that doesn't happen too often. -- 194.152.154.1 03:12, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Monkbel that there is a very audible IPA:/j/, in the recording. It sounds rather like IPA:/akja:/ and, in fact, the section below this one states that this sound is like the 'cu' in 'cute', which confirms this point, as does the section that compares it with 'kj' in Reykjavik. Mike Hayes ( talk) 02:55, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Is this sound similar to Serbo-Croatian c or ć? -- Djordje D. Bozovic 22:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Isn't Spanish ch a voiceless postalveolar affricate?
Well, somebody's removed it again, but it is correct indeed. If users are adding every single dialectal variety in other languages I don't see a reason to not include the Canarian occurence of this sound, so I'm recovering it.-- Il Qathar ( talk) 17:10, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
Yup. FWIW, the kj in Reykjavík is pronounced with a true [c]. -andy 91.32.75.66 09:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I do not speak this language, but I do have a vague thought that they have a similar or the same sound in their language. So have they? -andy 91.32.75.66 09:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Vietnamese phonology says:
So, I've deleted mention about Vietnamese in the article. -- Koryakov Yuri 18:28, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I think most of them are wrong.
Many of the examples describe the Romance /k/, a fronted velar ("palatovelar"?) plosive. That is [k̟], not [c]. [c] sounds similar to [tʲ], not to [kʲ]. As in all dorsopalatal consonants, the tongue bends into a ⋂ shape, with the tip touching the alveolar ridge of the lower jaw.
Others probably describe [tʲ], though the difference between [c] and [tʲ] is a rather small matter of degree.
AFAIK the Albanian q, gj are [kʲ], [gʲ] in the south and [t͡ɕ], [d͡ʑ] in the north – the same what happens to the letters ќ and ѓ in the neighboring Macedonian language. Sure, one can expect [c ɟ] as historical intermediates between the palatalized velar stops and the alveolopalatal ( = palatalized palatoalveolar) affricates, and maybe these pronunciations actually occur somewhere in central Albania, but I'd like to see some evidence for this.
Most Australian languages have "laminopalatal" (postalveolar?) plosives; the tj in the last example is such a thing. Dorsopalatal plosives, or even nasals, apparently don't occur anywhere in Australia (not even in Yanyuwa which has plosives and nasals at seven contrasting places of articulation). David Marjanović 11:57, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
I took the liberty of removing the alleged Polish example from the table. I've never heard "kie-" pronounced with an IPA [c], and I've been using the language for forty years now. The word in question is pronounced with a [kʲ] instead. By the way, the meaning of the word is 'when' rather than 'and', which further makes me think that the example was probably a misunderstanding. Regards -- Bmucha
Am I the only one who thinks the similarity to [tʃ] is slightly over the top? I can see a much bigger similarity to [k]. » bye ee 00:14, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
It's interesting. I don't hear any similarity with [k]. To me, it sounds exactly like [tj] as in British "tune". (I know it's neither, but that's how I hear it, no [kj], just [tj].) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.204.51.15 ( talk) 21:53, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
My German-Greek dictionary uses k with a hook similar to the "more rounded" diacritic in IPA (◌̹) to denote the sound [c]. Is there a diacritic in IPA which looks like the "more rounded" diacritic and shows palatalization? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Meidei ( talk • contribs) 22:45, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
Is it possible that some accents of English in Ireland use [c] for t in tune [cu:n]. Check out how Micheál Ó Muircheartaigh pronounces the word opportunity at 8:21 of the following video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqkVkt0P74M&feature=related. I'm thinking it's [ɔpərcu:nɪtɪ], but I'm not sure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.20.33.217 ( talk) 09:33, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
For Blackfoot it says that [c] is an "allophone of /k/ after front vowels", but the example given is [aˈkicoan]. I suppose this is supposed to be [aˈcikoan]? Does anyone have a source for it? — Lfdder ( talk) 16:49, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
"The airstream mechanism is pulmonic, which means it is articulated by pushing air solely with the intercostal muscles and diaphragm, as in most sounds."
The human diaphragm does not, and cannot, push air out of the lungs. It be contracted to draw air in, and it can be relaxed to allow exhalation, but the pressure of exhalation comes from contracting the intercostl muscles. The diaphragm cannot "push air." Simple human anatomy. 172.56.193.244 ( talk) 16:58, 9 August 2023 (UTC)